i want to get your thoughts on what congresswoman zoe lofkin told us earlier this week. >> the effect referral to the ethics committee is for it to die in that committee. why do that? >> well, we'll see. i mean, the ethics committee is evenly divided, five democrats, five republicans. and they are supposed to act without regard to party. and when i chaired the committee, that's what we did. i would like to believe that pattern which is in the house rules will be followed. if it isn't, shame on them. >> what do you think of committee's decision to refer them to the ethics committee rather than for criminal prosecution? >> well, i'm not sure the committee had many better options, paula. you know, of the other subpoena defiers, two of them were prosecuted. that's steve bannon and peter navaro. but mark meadows and former white house official dan scavino were referred to doj, no prosecution. the now it's wrong of kevin mccarthy and the others to defy lawful subpoenas from the house. we'll see if the committee takes action. they probably won't. there is one other wild card here which is we