>> commissioner zvanski: this is commissioner zvanski again. through the chair, mike, what you just talked about -- or actually, i guess, mr. brown, as well, if the point of having the difference between access and trio was the sutter -- was inclusion of sutter or exclusion of sutter, how could they have been allowed to join when that was the basis of having the two separate options? i'm not sure i understand why now sutter is available in both options? it doesn't -- it seems to defeat the whole point of why we were really adamant about that and why our members were adamant about that, and especially our labor -- our labor folks were adamant about having sutter come onto keep costs much lower for members. could you explain that, please. >> let me take a stab at that, commissioner zvanski. sutter was initially excluded, and we went for a period of time without sutter, and the care was successfully redirected to other facilities. we -- we, working with brown and toland, working with ucsf, successfully redirected care to non-sutter facilities, and

>> commissioner zvanski: this is commissioner zvanski again. through the chair, mike, what you just talked about -- or actually, i guess, mr. brown, as well, if the point of having the difference between access and trio was the sutter -- was inclusion of sutter or exclusion of sutter, how could they have been allowed to join when that was the basis of having the two separate options? i'm not sure i understand why now sutter is available in both options? it doesn't -- it seems to defeat the whole point of why we were really adamant about that and why our members were adamant about that, and especially our labor -- our labor folks were adamant about having sutter come onto keep costs much lower for members. could you explain that, please. >> let me take a stab at that, commissioner zvanski. sutter was initially excluded, and we went for a period of time without sutter, and the care was successfully redirected to other facilities. we -- we, working with brown and toland, working with ucsf, successfully redirected care to non-sutter facilities, and

>> commissioner zvanski: commissioner breslin, i'm sorry. i was muted, but i do have a couple of questions, if i may. >> president breslin: certainly. go ahead. >> commissioner zvanski: i've noticed for some employees, the employee and family plus rate have been going down -- i'm sorry for the echo -- and i'm wondering why those rates or at least the out-of-pocket seems to be diminishing. i was curious about that, and i may have misunderstood something. i thought i saw somewhere there was a charge for a u.h.c. dental h.m.o., and i'm wondering what happened because i thought we had delta for employees. and the last thing, i'm still puzzled that after the stabilization is applied, we end up with a higher rate than 9%, because i thought the stabilization would help keep the proposed rate increase lower, and so i must have missed something, and i apologize, mike, but it's, like, how do we get higher? so thank you for those. >> there is a dental offering through united health care as an h.m.o. it is one of two dental h.m.o.s offered to active emp