Okay, Sandy Markham, nice to meet you. First Doctor Who convention, I understand. Tell
us a little bit about how you got involved with make-up at the BBC. What did you do before
then? Well I was pretty young when I got involved.
So I started at the BBC when I was just over 20 actually. So I went through their training
school that they had then, three months training, then probation for two years, then make-up
assistant, then senior make-up assistant and then finally make-up supervisor. I mean it
was up to you if you applied for those promotions. I didn't apply straight away but in the end
I did. So can you remember what the very first thing
you worked on was? I honestly can't. I mean I think when you
were a beginner you were given easy programs. You might go up and do tonight like current
affairs with a thing to powder somebody's head if it was shiny or something. And then
you would gradually be given more advanced things to do but there would always be a supervisor
keeping an eye on you and allocating you certain make-ups that they thought you were capable
of doing. And there were some of us that were very good at doing hair and some of us much
better at make-up and I was never really a very good hair dresser. So make-up would be
more what I would get to do. So in those days was it more of an experience
thing that got you promoted through? Yeah, experience, yes. I mean I don't think
you wouldn't apply to be a supervisor, you know, unless you'd been there about five years
probably. And what about the particular Doctor Who's
that you worked on? I mean there were so many during those early days. Are there any specific
make-up sessions you remember? Anyone you remember being difficult to make up or work
on? Well the person I usually had to... I always
looked after Bill Hartnell because I was the senior person on the program so he always
had to have the senior person on the program. But I was responsible for all the others so
I had to keep an eye on them. And I suppose the ones that the more sort of, what do you
call them, science fiction ones, were the more kind of, you know, like there wasn't
anything to follow. We just had to make them up really as we went along. But I worked very
closely with the costume supervisor so we would always talk together and she would do
drawings and I would fill in extra bits. So I do remember the butterflies, the Minoptra
and those ones which were really interesting to do. And as I was saying to someone earlier,
I remember painting these eyeballs on ping pong balls and sticking them in people's mouths.
It was weird, very uncomfortable for the actors. So you had first-hand experience of William
Hartnell. How did you find him? Well I was pretty scared when I had to take
him on because he'd been looked after by someone else, you know, a senior to me. And I think
he'd got very attached to her because he liked things to be, you know, like things to be
familiar and he liked to feel safe which is understandable. So it was a little bit, you
know, tricky at the beginning where we had to kind of get to know each other. But he
was fine. I mean he would be nervous and he would be touchy and he would be annoyed if
things went wrong or if something upset him. But it was really because he was worried about
forgetting his lines and it's a big responsibility to carry, to keep that going. When there were
new people to work with all the time he had to deal with all these new characters that
were coming along but keep his own character going. It was quite a big responsibility for
him so, I mean, he was pretty sweet really. He gave me a nice present at the end and,
you know, I got fond of him. But I never got close. He was never someone who would talk
about private life or anything like that. I never, you know, didn't know more about
him at the end than I did at the beginning of the few years.
There's a bit of documentation which survives from the Dalek Master Plan and there's a couple
of letters to and forth, various people, about you getting told off about Brian Count's beard.
Do you remember anything about that?
No, I don't remember anything. I must have erased that from my mind. What would I have
been... I mean, one of the things we might get told off is if it showed, if it showed
that it was, you know, if there was some lace or something that picked up. So that could
have been that. I don't know. What was I being told off about?
It was something along those...
Along those...
There was a difference between the film sequence that you pre-recorded and the studio.
Oh, right.
It looked a little bit different.
Right, yes. Well, those things, you know, nobody's perfect and I must have got sort
of, you know, wiped that out of my mind really. But those were always the things we were worried
about and we were always worried about if Bill Hartnell's wig lace showed, you know,
things and the light would sometimes catch things or if people sweated, you know, things
would start coming off and those were always... We used to be sort of have different makeup
people standing in corners with chamois leathers and things, you know, ready to sort of mop
them when they went from place to place.
Did you have photographs to work from for continuity reference?
Probably. I mean, we didn't do a great deal of filming and I suppose... I can't remember
using photographs much. I mean, we were given photographs afterwards. There may have been,
I suppose, if there was something... I remember doing... I used to have to do a scar on Julian
Glover. He was in the Crusades, I think, and I'm trying... I think I probably did have
a photograph of that to make sure, you know, that I did get it the same every week.
I mean, Julian Glover's quite well known nowadays as he was then. Are there any other significant
names you can recall from working on him?
Well, Mark Eden was quite well known then. I don't know what his... I don't hear of his
name much. I mean, William... Bill Russell. I can't remember. There was... Mary Peach
was quite a big actress in those days. I don't know that there's that many people who've
survived who are still big names now, really. So I can't... I mean, a lot of people did
come and go. I'm just trying... I can't immediately remember. You know, if I looked at photographs,
I might remember, but I can't remember. People didn't stand out, really, because so many
different people, you know, went through.
I mean, there was loads of Doctor Who stories that you worked on throughout the years. What
made you move on to other things from Doctor Who?
That probably would have been allocation from above. You know, you sort of had to move off
and give somebody else a turn, and I think you didn't get it forever. I can't remember
a particular reason why I was moved off it, because I'm sure I really enjoyed it, because
I really liked doing those character... you know, that character kind of work, much more
than I liked doing the straight make-ups. But I imagine it was just like, okay, you
know, you've done a good stint on it, now it's somebody else's turn. We didn't have
much say in that, really.
Now, you mentioned the Crusade. You worked with your sister in the Crusade. What can
you tell us about that?
Well, practically nothing, because she reminded me that she had been in this episode, and
she says I actually put her wig on, which I am afraid to say I have absolutely no memory
of at all, but I'll take her word for it. So I don't remember her. I do remember Julian.
I can't even remember a lot about that story, I'm sorry to say. So not very helpful there.
What other programmes did you work on other than Doctor Who?
Oh, a very, very wide spectrum. Everything from the Black and White Minstrel Show to,
you know, classic Sunday night serials, Dickens serials. I loved those. I think that was the
last thing I did before I left, was I think it was Dombey and Son, because I love the
stories, I love Dickens, so it was really nice to work on books that I usually knew,
because my dad used to read them to us. Yeah, anything really from, as I say, Current Affairs,
that ongoing soap, Compact. I don't know if you remember that. That wasn't one of my favourites.
Period plays, you know, just anything really, with musicals. Yeah, sometimes you've got
to work with a particular supervisor. Before I was a supervisor myself, then there would
be others who might pick you because they got on with you, because they liked your work,
something like that. So there were probably some that I worked with who did particular
programmes.
So you mentioned the Black and White Minstrel Show. Did you actually have to black up the
actors?
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, and black and white and make the old, you know, little things
around the eyes and the nose, yeah. And we had to do it in that really, really cramped
make-up room at the Shepherd's Bush Empire. Tiny little rooms to sit in, and you used
to have three, just three, you know, side by side, and three of us would be working
away, black, black, black, white, white. And then these terrible wigs that we all used
to hate, and we had to curl them up with the tongs, you know, if they started coming unraveling,
we'd have to go and hop them up and curl them up, and then plop them on, and then they had
to go off and do their songs.
So how long were you at VBC altogether?
Ten years.
What did you do after that?
Had a baby, and then I retrained in something completely different.
Oh, okay. So what did you do in later life then?
I became a psychotherapist. That's what I am now.
Oh, fantastic. So you've been doing that for quite some time now?
Mm-hmm. About 30 years. Had a bit of time, you know, having children, a couple of boys.
That's quite a contrast, being a make-up artist.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't think I really wanted to go back to that. I think ten years of it
was enough. I think I had the best, you know, didn't, yeah. I didn't really feel it was
the thing I most wanted to do in my life, and I had a chance to do it, which was great,
and I enjoyed it.
If there was a shortage of make-up artists, would you go back to doing that?
No, never. No, it's too stressful.
Okay, so have you got any hobbies or interests nowadays when you're not working?
Oh, I've got lots of hobbies, yes. I love my garden, I love travelling, I like writing.
Yeah, those sorts of things. Yes, I want to do now, I've got a bit more time, I want to
do some more travelling, and I want to do some writing. That's what I most like.
That's brilliant. Thank you very much, Sonia.
Thank you.