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launch into a verbal assault on michael cohen in his motives and combustible pass, the language was course from the start prompting an immediate sidebar with the judge moments later, the defense returned to the colorful language cone is used on social media to describe his onetime boss painting, an image of him as a jolted former employee with dollar signs in his eyes also for the second day this week, the course of the former president's allies, some of whom are vp contender, showed up attacking the trial and cohen in ways once again, the former president cannot joining our team here tonight is karen ramy, a reporter for the wall street journal has been following the trial from inside the courtroom. >> what stood out to you today? >> i think that moment you just described with todd blanche sort of coming straight out of the gates super aggressive at the beginning of cross very much stood out to me, especially because of i think it was well, if the judge the answer is no they're shawn shut it down quickly. and as we saw in the transcript, that sidebar, my sean said don't make this about you for that

perspective no. but for the jury, i mean, i guess it did show that he was aggressive and his intention was to go after cohen, even if ultimately the rest of the cross are much of the rest of the cross was a little more toned down. >> you have a sense of what the reaction in the courtroom was or whether you're how the jurors seemed to interpret it throughout the jurors were quite engaged. they weren't sort of captivated the way but i think they were sometimes during the stormy daniels testimony, but they were engaged. they were taking notes. they seem to be taking it seriously. at times, i had a pretty good seat of like being able to see the jury today and blanche would be asking about some of cohen's social media habits and he'd be talking about a chito crusted cartoon villain or some such thing. and the jurors are like studiously writing notes and wondering like they just write down sciutto crusted cartoon villain it's very possible it's robust you said that you pointed out

that cohen's testimony is essential to prosecutors because he's the only witness who was tied to cover up a hush money payment directly to trump. >> do you think he was effective in doing so? and do you think in his testimony well, i think that's the big question here, is whether there are these moments that cohen talks about, that he is the only one bin tell that story like prosecutors did the absolute best they could in having the phone records, having the pictures this morning when he was talking about the oval office meeting prosecutors would flash things on the screen. there was a photo of cohen at a podium at a lectern and the white house, there was a calendar entry showing that he had recorded that he went to the white house on that certain de so i imagine there's no doubt in jurors minds that cohen was in the white house on that certain day but whether in that meeting trump had the conversation that cohen recalls having. i think

that's something that jurors are going to be deciding over the next week of the trial. >> and for as much as as important as it is for michael cohen for the prosecution making there are argument he's also the biggest witness for the defense and making their counter-argument and saying that donald trump wasn't responsible for this. and so there is so much writing on how todd blanche does handle that when michael cohen is back on the stand on thursday and what we heard from this afternoon is that trump was initially pleased with how this is the only thing todd blanche is really done in this case he hasn't really cross-examined anyone else at length or taken much of a presence. he's been there every day, but this is his entire job is to cross-examine michael cohen and to do so successfully, trump was initially happy with how todd blanche actually did today. of course, trump judges everything that he really sees in his evaluation based on the perception and the coverage of it so we'll see if that changes over the next. >> so that point elie, how did you think todd blanche did today? >> well, i wasn't impressed with him with just based on the transcript and based on our feed, we had a cnn i thought he was a little bit all over the

map and i'm interested in what you thought because we've been focused very much on what was michael cohen's demeanor? how did he play in the courtroom? what was blanche like? because i know him. i go back to the sudden district of new york with him. he was a pretty mild personality, like all of us. he can get more more jacked up for the courtroom. what was he like after that initial aggressive questioning? yeah. it was much more mild. i mean, it wasn't timid. it wasn't he wasn't afraid of cohen, but it was called it was he was clearly prepared. he'd clearly been practicing for this moments but he wasn't attacking cohen it's interesting for the most part you've seen a lot of the trial up close. do you feel that there is an explanation for this $420,000? colors other than what the prosecution has said that money is four i mean, what's the defense argument for what this $420,000 is for it just because donald trump felt like giving it to michael

cohen. >> i think prosecutors were trying to squash a few possible defense arguments today. in their questioning, they talked about the legal work that cohen had done or even consulting work sort of post trump's election and it was minimal like they were trying to make to say defense if you're going to argue that this is what cohen's getting paid for. it will not cut it i think they made that case, but i think the question is not whether what cohen was getting paid for or was this a legal retainer. it really is about whether trump himself directed these false business records that he is charged with and that is something that cohen is the one who can speak to that. >> and michael, you don't think i mean, typically i think the prosecution has proved their case. you don't think that i don't think they have yet. i mean, i think they're trying to with cohen. i think that's why weisselberg is such a big deal and it is absence from the trial is such a big deal. i

think they've gotten to the part of yeah, there's some false business records grids, but this next step of did they falsify the record with the intent of committing another crime? i think that's where you put trump in the room where you need somebody to what tobacco, what go in. >> and as karen said, i mean, i think the the main weakness in the government's case is the connection of donald trump not to the payments, but to the creation of the false business records. >> i mean, we heard about how those records were knowledge if he had knowledge that it was being knowledge is not enough. >> he has to have caused it. now, he doesn't have to have done it himself. he doesn't have two views the drop-down menu. he doesn't have to have put the words retainer on the on the the check stub but he has to have engaged in behavior that led the people who did actually do the writing to have done that. but can you make the argument that his behavior if he so let's put stormy daniels and he wanted to cover it up and he paid the such money that

that caused the behavior. well i think it's got to be a little more direct than that. >> i mean, it doesn't have to be him saying file this. no, it doesn't have to be an explicit instruction, but it does have to be behavior that led to this specific act of creating the false business record. >> and that is to me, still the weakest part of the government's case. everything else i think is they've gotten to it is michael cohen saying that donald trump did approve it verbally when allen weisselberg showed it to him. that is really and it's not clear they're going to get much closer to that. so that's the question of truly it is up to the jury and if they view that as legitimate enough and far enough, the word the language in an indictment is crucial. and remember, you've got to lawyers on this jury, which is unusual that might really look at the technical aspects of it and what it says is that the writing, the ms record is done with the intent to defraud and the intent to commit another crime. and aid and covering it

up so they've got all of these things. i've got approved and i'm saying i don't think they've gotten all the way across the finish line with them, but i think if i'm not mistaken, it may say antony dive in. but when the judge is going to instruct the jury on the law and it's really going to be an or practically so it's going to be enough for them to prove that it was done with the intention of concealing another crime. i think all of us one thing they bill told the jury is that there's direct evidence and the circumstantial evidence, but both are evidence. so we don't need necessarily that smoking gun moment where someone comes comes in and here's a video or something else. you could have substantial evidence may think what the strength of the prosecution's case. here's what we've been talking about is going to be this competing narratives and we have a lot of evidence here. i think the idea that the process, but the jury is going to say, yes, he did this for the campaign in yes he he he on tape with michael cohen and yes david pecker also met with him and yet he signed all these checks, did all that stuff, but the one thing he didn't know about was about

the ossification of these documents. i don't think it really makes rational sense. i think if you're a defense lawyer, your case, you're counter-narrative has to make rational sense. i think here it's not going to be enough to have these little next up credibility but it's not going to be enough to say you really have a vendetta against the sky because for everything, they've shown michael cohen and stormy daniels say about donald trump. they have another tweet, like you said, kaitlan, they have another more vitriol that's coming the other way so really what we're looking at, a lot of folks from the defense table to the cooperators who were all dirty, i think but those documents were i think the prosecution at tip over to having a pretty persuasive case current. >> i mean, i think oh, sorry. no good. >> i think the other thing the prosecution does is we have heard a lot the past couple of days about trump and micro-managing. >> like they have really made a case that trump wasn't not only was trump on micromanager but, the cohen wanted that and really wanted trump's approval, wanted trump's attention and check-in with

trump at every step of the way, every step of the way that cohen needed trump's approval, not just because trump wanted it, because cohen needed it let me ask you the former president has had a growing entourage and non-family members, but of various characters who are additional for vice president and other things the group that was there today, what kind of an impact did that have in the i mean, were they noticeable in the courtroom? do they? >> does it change the dynamic? and anyway, the courtroom, they were noticeable. >> the sort of courtroom benches behind trump have at times been half empty, right? when i was there, like boris epshteyn was just there checking his phone and thrilled. >> yeah. sometimes it's like that and so there's this packed courtroom of reporters and like five people from the public in the back and then the he is empty pews near where trump is sitting are behind where trump is sitting. but the past couple of days, it's been packed that he has had all these supporters and it's quite noticeable. and at one point

today, some of these republican elected officials in the middle of one just walked in and it was so odd because there's a lot of rules in the courtroom that we can't just say go to the bathroom or have a snack or like do whatever you want or leave? >> yeah. you can't even eat in that courtroom. and it was in a moment with michael cohen was answering a question from the prosecution and the morning break had ended. they had all trump's allies had gone outside to do a press conference because you can weaken still have our computers. you could see online they were outside speaking publicly and only a few people came back in after the break. we assume they could just left because the bench was empty behind donald trump and then while michael cohen is in the middle of a sentence in walks, byron donalds, vivek ramaswamy, governor burgum another campaign aide. i believe there's at least four people, maybe five, and they don't slip into the back and go to the back row. they walk all the way up to the front and they get in the second row. it wasn't clear from i was on the left side, so it wasn't clear how the jury, if they looked if it distracted them, if it distracted michael cohen, but

there was a moment where i saw the judge, justice marshall i've been watching him throughout the case. he was essentially glaring at them. he looked noticeably annoyed at the fact that they just walked in and you just don't see that in that courtroom. >> it was the least i mean, it's a very ordered proceeding. and that was the least order, but i think i've seen in the past couple of weeks, things are binoculars if they're in a sidebar, i mean, it's that strict and there's multiple court officers walking around telling you you can't be talking, you can't be on your phone if you're a reporter member of the public. and it was just it was a kind of love that you have been oculars i'm going to like those oculars binoculars, you know, i don't have monocular and i was starting to think that i needed some. now they've been cracking down here i couldn't randy, it's great to have you. thank you. thanks for having me

everyone is going to stay here. >> we may not have video of michael cohen's back-and-forth with the defense, but there is definitely heat than emanates out the transcripts, john berman joins us that also ahead. what was said in court today, but with the former president would be testifying in this case from medium rare well so many ways to save life ready, wallet, happy. that's 3605 by whole foods market

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healthy home now up to 50% off and ako this is cnn. the world's news closed captioning is brought to you by skechers, hands-free slip ends. >> this tiny home tran now this is more like it. >> the same goes for my foot work. well, i one hands-free with wide fits, get your slipping dry wipe fits, get your slip if one thing comes through loud and clear in the transcripts from today's trial, and it's something elie honig mentioned earlier. >> there's a love lost between michael cohen and the former president and his, if we had any doubt about that at one point, the prosecution had cohen reading tweets from the president and the months after the fbi rated cohen's office in 28 18, trump had praised his former campaign manager, paul manafort and one for refusing the code break. cohen said he understood he was being told not to cooperate. john berman

joint does more of the transcripts. i knew even going through them. >> what else have you felt so there was one exchange that caught my eye that gets to two points here that you've all been talking about. number one, how little michael cohen? on currently likes donald trump and how much he wants to see him convicted in to how michael cohen didn't directly answer a lot of the questions, at least at first that blanche posed to him. so blanched asks him, you've also talked extensively on may a culpa his podcast, your desire to see that president trump getting convicted in this case, correct cohen says, sounds like something i think i would say blanche says, well, sir, i'm not asking you if it sounds like something you would say i'm saying, did you have you regularly commented on your podcasts that you wanted president trump to be convicted in this case. cohen then says yeah, probably. and then blanche says, do you have any doubt? cohen says, no then blanche says so why did you answer? yes probably. cohen says because i don't specifically know if i use those words, but yes, i would like to see that blanche says,

and so yes, you want to see president trump get convicted from this case, correct? cohen says, i would like to see accountability that's not it's not for me, it's for the jury and this court blanche says, i didn't ask what you wanted to see or not nazi about accountability. i said, do you want to see president trump convicted in this case? cohen says, that's what we just said. you're asking me if i want to see blanche says i'm just asking you to say yes or no. do you want president trump to get convicted in this case? michael cohen ultimately says sure. >> this is what we call pulling teeth i know it can seem like cohen had a couple witty rejoinders there, but i don't think what he rejoinders play well with juries. i would have if i was on the prosecution sayyed, i would have much preferred michael cohen when the question was, you've start on your podcasts that you want donald trump convicted? yes, i have you hope that he is held accountable? yes, i do. you've wide yes, i did. when it gets into all this gap, probably. how could it be? yeah, probably he says that every single day of his life. so it makes cohen look like someone who's maybe willing to just shade the truth a little bit. and by the way,

ultimately, the defense's pitch to the jury is not that you have to believe that michael cohen is a fantasy to makes up things out of whole cloth if you believe michael cohen just tweaks the truth a little here and there, throws a little yeah. probably when the answer should be yes the evidence in this case is we were just talking about is close enough that that can be enough if you don't believe michael cohen hundred percent, you can throw this out. so i don't like those responses from inconstant i don't know if there's an argument that the prosecutors would make, but maybe it's too strange, but if cohen really wanted to lie and convict trump, he could have said in this meeting with allen weisselberg and trump that trump definitively said, yes. >> violet, as a legal absolutely. that's a very that's a powerful argument. there are several meetings thanks where he doesn't say that trump said the most incriminating thing. the oval office meeting, he doesn't say that trump came out and said, make sure the documents are the

the the the business records are false if. this is the argument, this is something prosecutors do all the time, is they say if he was cooking up a story, he cook up a better story. now, it's not a perfect argument because you actually want a better story, but that does, i think helped cohen's credibility. the fact that some of these exchanges are suggestive of, of trump's guilt, but not conclusive proof. >> and i think it also lins to that argument that offense might make a look. jury, the prosecutors asked that they wish they could have made them a better liar. that's not that's not where you want to walk walk into it. so i agree with you on the sort of the back-and-forth that it's gameplay. and i think sometimes we're the witness. you have to use a cattle prod a little bit and say, look, you're not the smartest person in the room. you're going to answer my questions. we can start this out. we're going to have a couple of days at this. and so i'm going to make you answer my question. that's what i

feel like he was doing at the same time, he's got a walk a line of not creating sympathy. and look like he's going too hard on the witness because that's a dangerous place to be. so he's got a basically let the jury say, look, this guy, thinks he's smarter than me. i've got to rein him in some and then get his questions like that. >> was so comfortable acknowledging his lies that he's told before when the prosecution was questioning obviously, he knew generally where they were going, what they were going to ask because they'd asked it to him before they weren't asking questions. they know the answer to. >> but he was willing to say dig purpose statement and you'd say yes, that was a lie. >> they'd asked him about something that he said publicly, he would say yes, that was a lie. what i told wolf blitzer in that interview when it was todd blanche, he seemed to be caged year and in those moments it's not willing to acknowledge it because he seemed to be fearful. i mean, he's an attorney. he was before he was disbarred, if fearful that todd blanche was going to try to get him in a trap and that seemed to change the longer he was on the stand. but at the beginning, i mean, he wouldn't even acknowledge a lie was a lie at first, he was saying it was an inaccuracy of

what he told special counsel robert mueller, obviously was alive is deceptive. and then he later did acknowledge it was alive he got better, but i will say though, but the michael cohen that we've all seen on television and the michael coleman we've heard so much. >> michael cohen has showed up today, did seem like a distinctly different person than we all expected. >> so i think that discussion we had earlier is important. >> putting a witness in contexts and yes, he's not a perfect witness, but i think if we all guessed a few weeks out, what would be talking about the first day of the cross-examination of michael cohen? i don't think we would be parsing out necessarily the word by word his responses in the same way, i think we would have thought of cross-examinati on would have taught him the pieces that would have shown this guy can't be trusted. and now here we are saying like, well, perhaps he should have just said yes faster. so i do think if i'm prosecution, that makes me feel pretty good tonight. >> john, you have another part of the transcript. >> well, look, money was a big part of this and there was the whole exchange about merch that cohen was selling on his this

podcast. but also how well michael cohen has done on the books that he's written. two of them about donald trump, at least tangentially, if not directly, blanche asieh, how much money have you made from revenge? >> one of the books that michael cohen has written, i don't know exactly, but i would say around $400,000 in knowing that in the first two months or so disloyal, that's the other book made around 2 million combining the two books, how much more did disloyal make after the 2 million that it made in the first couple of months cohen answer is maybe another million so blanche asked you made i'm not expecting you to be exact. >> you made about 3.4 million from those two books. is that fifth? air cohen says over the four-year period, bland says, yes. cohen says it is. yes, sir. so $3.4 million, there's a lot of money. >> bravo. bravo to michael cohen. i'm doing something wrong with my books. that you should go on for donald, i end up in prison congress, i guess. >> i guess. i guess all in all it's maybe not worth it government, right but that's

basically try the financial point. i think came through pretty strongly, which is this is michael cohen's livelihood. this is what he does does he profits directly off this end? i think there's a fair argument. he has a direct financial stake in the verdict because what happens if it's a guilty verdict? michael cole will do a tour. i'll probably have a heavier market for his book if it's a hung jury or not guilty, watch how quickly the bottom falls out of the michael cohen trashing donald trump market. so he's got, he's got it goes to his bias has credibility a lot of money to for a book, it's a lot of money. michael, do you think the jury is going to register that or use anything that's looked around to every reporter in the room who had written a book and yuri notice all i'm going i mean, how do you think that plays with the jury? >> i mean, i think they absolutely look at that is just another reason that kassem some paul of question over his testimony in a statement. i mean, does he have another reason another motive to say something different and he does seem to be i mean, i called him a griffindor in earlier, but he does seem to be profiteering off of this whole feud. and so

now we know his property and off the right in the books and i just don't i mean, i think the jury they're in there because they don't have these sort of preconceived notions, at least we hope that's why they were selected to be on this jury. that they don't have preconceived notions about people. so when they're here, that's they're listening to somebody so yeah, i had all these problems. i did all this and i've made $3.2 off saying these nasty things about the defendant and then does call his credibility and his testimony. the question i think it does. >> now, one other thing that todd blanche asked michael cohen about that i was interested in was he asked about all of his meetings with the da off the da's office, generally, even before alvin bragg was the district attorney here in manhattan. >> and he also asked, have you ever met directly with alvin bragg and michael cohen said, no, i've actually never met him, which i was told isn't unfamiliar. >> alvin bragg doesn't typically meet with witnesses. you'd only meets with victims, but i don't know where todd blanche was going with that line of questioning. had he said yes. >> yeah. i would keep alvin bragg separated from any

witnesses, especially michael cohen, by physical force, if necessary. i think that just and you're right. that part of the cross exam sort of fell flat for me. i think he was just trying to say you're so eager to please the dau are begging them to come in. you been trying to cooperate with them for months and months. you've been hoping to get him indicted for a long time, which culminates and now you're hoping it gets in prison. i think it just goes more to the vendetta theory, but i agree it fell flat in the way it came through to me. >> and i do wonder whether it's guided by the client or i mean, so much of donald trump's framing of this case has been the judge, the de right. it's the folks at the top that are leading the charge and i do wonder times whether some of that hasn't affected how blanche is thinking about his cross-examination because that's where i thought he was going. its idea that alvin bragg is directly involved. you really are meeting with the folks at the top of the chain here. >> and i think a completely filled i'll fat number min. >> thanks so much. appreciate coming up next perspective from a retired judge on today's cross-examination, michael cohen, also in judge merchan's reigning in some of those questions every piece of

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your hair at neutrophil.com i'm mj lee at the white house. and this is cnn the trump trial didn't go off the rail today with trump defense getting its first crack at star witness michael cohen, but it easily could have if not for some immediate action by judge jemar sean, we told you earlier he called trump's lawyer, todd blanche to the bench. only four questions in terrain in the line of questioning after it started off, ten sleigh with an expletive joining us now with more on that balancing act to keep things in line. someone who's known, judge merchan from one 15 years, former new york judge joel kahn visor. so what do you make of what happened there? with the first cross-examination question leading to an objection and a sidebar well, cross-examination is the beating heart of the

adversarial process so as a judge, you're going to take a step back and let the lawyers do what they do. >> if they ask an absolutely irrelevant question or something that is just beyond the pale it's your responsibility to stop it, whether it's question one, question, for question 400, and that is precisely what judge merchan did. so when a lawyer says to a witness on the stand, you said unkind things about me there's no relevance to that. the flip side of that is with respect to any witness who who has a bias toward the defendant in the case. that is fair game bias has never collateral. you can always ask those questions, but quite frankly, who cares what he thinks about the lawyer. >> but is that's how the lawyer wants to start off. like what? what's the harm in starting off that way to the defense? i mean, why would the judge intervened? the judge can just because it's irrelevant, it doesn't matter. it's not something the jury could consider. so if they can't consider it, you shouldn't be able to ask the question. it will a-bomb throw something

along those lines, fire throw. >> i don't know what you call it, but it was just something there you go. thank you. molotov cocktail. he wanted to throw it and he knew he was going to get that sustained. objection. hundred percent. i really hundred percent. what did you think of the second the second question was todd blanche was trying to go to the fact that michael cohen recently had said it's crazy statements. michael cohen said he said the media is going to do facial recognition on the jury and track you down. camp out on your lord's. blanche started to go down that line. there was another objection and the judge upheld that. would you have upheld would you sustain that objection? >> probably. i don't know what it does other than to put your jury on edge, which is the last thing you want as the charge you trying to keep them as a as a cohesive unit for as long as you can, it doesn't it doesn't get it doesn't prove anything in this case. >> how about if the defense argument is just he's unhinged. he says wild, ridiculous irresponsible thing. is that a fair line of cross? >> then it could be if he makes that argument, i would probably choose a different question to go to figure out whether or not

we're going down an unhedged path and then try again. you see, judge, you see what i'm saying and i wanted now ask that question, then maybe judge, what do you make of trump's allies that we saw inside the white house today. obviously, he's allowed are inside the courthouse. he's allowed to bring whoever he would like with him. but jd vance and doug burgum, both in moments outside the courthouse this week, attacks the judge, but also his daughter, which is precisely what led the judge. to expand the gag order here, i've mentioned it's obviously difficult. i mean, they both said that they've made the statements that they were here on their own. i mentioned it's difficult for the judge to prove in the gag order that trump had instructed them to make those statements which it prevents them from doing. >> well, first of all, it is a public courtroom so they can come and they can talk and they do have first amendment rights which of course we've sent on the show many times. first amendment rights are fundamental, but they're not absolute, but certainly they can say what they want. but if you look back at the at the gag order judge merchan upheld when

when donald trump posted some other things people, other comments from other people, someone from fox news named jesse. i think they put on the judge said, you know what that is a violation of the gag order because you are accepting it, you are putting it out there. you're giving your imprimatur and that's going to be a violation of the gag order. so i think is a similar analysis here because look, all of a sudden, everyone didn't just the send on the courthouse. there's some conversations. i i i pretty much guaranteed trump didn't call up and say, come on down and say these things. but someone probably did so is it a violation of the gag order? only if the people can prove and it's their burden that trump had something to do with. but it is pretty curious and troubling that everything these upstanding statesman said was precisely with the defendant has tried to

get out and is unable to get out because of the gag order, judge, let me ask you a question about the jury. >> we're now a month into this trial and there hasn't been a single alternate brought in. it. all 12 are still intact. that strikes me in my new york experience as pretty unusual in a trial of this length and does that tell you anything about the jury in this case? >> well, does it tell me anything if i was able to tell what jurors were thinking or doing, you know, i i would i be a rich woman, i guess you never really know, but i agree with you completely. it is unusual it's been my experience that in every criminal case, whether it's a misdemeanor, that's being tried homicide or this very significant press worthy case with a former president, the united states there are always issues whether it's with the jury, whether it's with a gag order, whether it's with people in the audience, whether it's gang affiliated, there's always something but it is incredibly surprising that every juror is still involved.

>> no one's late, no one had an emergency, no one has a root canal i agree with you one month into it and it's surprising what does it tell me? it tells me either they're wonderfully upstanding civic minded people, or it's just completely unusual and coincidental. or they really want to be there or any, any version of all of those that's what it tells me. >> nobody wants out. because if you want out, you can get out on this. i mean, if a juror came in one day and said, i went into my social media feed and i saw something i probably wasn't supposed to see and it's taped to my view of the case. i mean, anyone could could have asked out and probably gotten out of this case. i've done cases less high-profile. this. we've gone three for alternate steam. sure. here we are not a single one, so i think it's a good indicator, just that the jury is focused and doing its job. yeah. well, and here's the hypothesis i would imagine a jury this committed to doing their job doesn't want to hang, doesn't want to come back and say, well, we just couldn't do our job i would

think this is a jury that's going to try hard to reach a verdict in this case, is that is that a possible theory? >> possible. i would like to think that too, but you could have two camps that are entrenched and they're not speaking about the case. they are told at the beginning in the middle and there'll be told again, you may not discuss this case so they're talking about lunch or they're talking about the weather, or they're talking about you know, what their co-op board is doing. i don't know, but they're not talking about the case. so you don't really know where anyone is and they won't unless and until they go back there, they've been charged. they've heard all the arguments and they start their deliberations and then then we'll know overall, are you surprised at all by the pace of things by how this entire case has been handled. >> i am i am surprised how smoothly it's gone. and quite frankly, the only thing that gone off the rails is the defendant who has goes before the microphone says whatever he wants, talks about his constitutional rights being violated my he's wrong. he's

wrong every time he says it. and even today, the appellate division on an article 78 mandamus application found that judge merchan did the right thing in terms of the gag order, that it was narrowly tailored. the order was justified and he used the least restrictive means, so they out and out dismissed his claims right there, it's gone. >> pfizer. thank you so much. it's great to have you ahead. how the trump defense responded today when the judge asked whether donald trump himself hopefully will be testifying priceline helps families have 60% on family-friendly hotels. >> so many great trips we might just leave here with another vacation baby taking bc paris

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michael cohen will be its final witness, prompting this question from judge merchan today to team trump, do you have any indication whether your client is going to testify donald trump's lawyer, todd blanche said no. >> we're sound follows up with no determination yet and her heard another no, not surprising since trump's really been all over the map i would have no problem testified. >> i didn't do anything wrong i'm testifying. >> i tell the truth. i mean, all i can do is tell the truth and the truth is that there's no case they have no case. >> well, if it's necessary well, i'm not allowed to testify i can testify, that the gag order's not for testify seeing that he's not going to ask again legal and i'm not a legal annelise but i can tell you that this legal analyst, norm eisen, was also inside the courtroom today. he once

investigated trump as counsel to house democrats in the first impeachment is litigated. cases involve me, trump previously is also the author of trying trump, a guide to his first election interference, criminal trial. >> norm. >> do you think trump will testify, anderson, i hope you're not going to replace me as a cnn legal analyst because you hit the nail on the head. there no. >> no, no? >> way that he is going to testify at his lawyers won't allow it. >> of course he is known to override his lawyers. it would be suicide for him to do that it not only would harm him in the case in chief, or at least they have an argument they can make in my view, the prosecution just cleared the proof beyond a reasonable doubt hurdle with cohen's testimony solidified it with cohen's very solid performance today on cross but on sentencing, if trump is found guilty, if the judge believes that he got on the stand and lied to him and his jurors. it virtually assures a sentence of

incarceration. so i think that even trump is not foolish enough to make that decision i know you love a good legal phrase. >> explain how the prosecution was drawing the sting today yes. >> my i write a cnn trial diary for every day of trial and today was about drawing in this thing. it's a trial lawyer term elie did it often with some of his more dubious witness, is that he had to put on as a prosecutor it's fronting all of the bad news so that the jury doesn't here the negatives that michael cohen lie, that he's pled guilty to nine felonies, that one of those felonies was for perjury, which getting all the stuff out there and they did a very sophisticated job susan hoffinger learning from her

misadventures on the storm hey daniel's direct was very adept and it actually was sophisticated. she planted a number of seeds that will only flourish when we come back on thursday on all of the main leinz that vectors attack norm. >> let me ask you about that because, okay, it's good to draw the sting think it's good to front the bad news. >> but what about the bad news? i mean, what about the fact that he's made 3.4 million off of trump hating. what about the fact that he has said he wants this jury to convict? >> i mean, what's the answer to that? i have found mostly in my life as a defense lawyer before my foray into prosecuting donald trump, that if a witness is honest on the stand, honest with the jury, if they fess up to what they did before, if they breast remorse for what they did before.

>> if they have a plausible redemption narrative and if they're likable, that juries will accept them and i thought that cohen did all of that. and indeed he has one advantage over some of the clients who i've represented, some of the cooperators and many who cooperate he's not working off time. he's out so in that respect, he's situating what you mean by working off time very often the cooperator will be arriving from prisons, slapped in a suit and a top hi to testify. but the vare freedom depends on how well they do in cooperating with the prosecution. that's not the case for michael cohen. so that's an advantage. and i saw something very interesting today. it's the first time that i've noticed that in this trial again and again, susan hoffinger was trying to get cohen to talk to the jury and he started talking to the jury

several times today, they put down their writing instruments and they just listened to him. and it felt to me like a conversation you'd never know where at least constantly reminding me you can't really the minds of the jury. i did bring my jury consultant with me which i haven't common with travel, susan susan necheles, i brought her one day because i wanted her insights on what this jury was thinking, but i do think that michael cohen had a little bit of a bond that was established over his examination with the jury. that is very dangerous for donald trump. todd blanche had to knock cohen afia had one shot at a first impression as my mother always said, you only get one chance at a first impression. >> he blew it what did your jury and consultants say to you she said that she did not think we were gonna get a hung jury in this case my very first cnn

trial diary was about trump strategy one angry juror, why she climbs you think hung juries are very uncommon, very small percentage of trials turnout in hung juries. >> and she, there's certain telltale signs when you have an angry or an alienated juror or you look for the jury michael knows this, you look for one of the members of the jury smiled el it persistently smile at the defendant or wink or show some tail coming in and out over hostilely who prosecution. she watched all day long. she didn't see any of it how would you defense lawyer extrordinary have opened your cross-examination of michael cohen? i would have hammered him on his perjury and i would have gone for the jugular on the some of the bad answers on cross-examination, nobody says, oh the clarence darrow of our

time, alina habba but alina habba did get some tricky answers from michael cohen. i would have gone for the jugular right back for that having to do with the most sensitive issues for him, he pled guilty. but we saw today that cohen would have been ready for even that that was one of the things that susan hoffinger drew. he had a good answer about whether he was honest when he made his initial blei, he said he pled guilty. so he told the judge he was guilty and he said, since, you know, i wasn't telling the truth to that, judge, but he explains he doesn't deny the facts he was coerced by the southern district and threat of prosecuting his wife to plead to crimes that he didn't commit. one of the most distinguished judges of the southern district, judge ray cough as a whole book why the

innocent plead guilty and the guilty go free. that was what michael explain today. i thought it was very very plausible. >> one of the most contested issues in this case is one of the lowest profile issues which is the business records himself do themselves, do you think cohen helped present the jury within explanation of how trump himself was responsible for creating the false business records he did. >> he took us through the knows that allen weisselberg made of the gross step scheme. and then he put trump in two meetings, one with him and weisselberg in trump tower another in the white house, buying into that scheme, if you believe michael cohen, i think the jury does proof beyond a reasonable doubt that donald trump falsified those records, normalize and thank you. >> greg saying a great account of what happened today. quick programming note this friday with the hush money trial in

recessed or miss a three 60 special my interview with karen mcdougal, i talked to her back in 2018 right after the story broke of her alleged affair with the former president's something he denies since the only tv interview, she's ever done, watch the interview this friday at 8:00 p.m. eastern. the news continuous including cnn as cover to the trump hush money trial rafter break when the competition is a nuclear competition, spying is extraordinarily important for russia as we're trying to spy on us we were spying on them it's very difficult to determine whom you can trust. >> i was studying everything got out of control this is a war, but secret was secrets and spice, a nuclear game premier sunday, june 2, that ten on see it kinda riva support your brain health. >> mary janet, hey, eddie, know, fraser, franck. franck, bread. >> how are you? >> fred fuel up to seven brain

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