cleared to fly yet again. the ntsb also looking at why three crews have reported that they had a decompression warning light go off, and why wasn't that enough to ground the plane. alaska says that in fact, they were told not to fly the plane over water, in they had that resolved and it had not yet been resolved at the time of this depression explosion at altitude, back to you. >> that raises serious questions about boeing itself. tom costello, tom, thank you very much. that's going to do it for me today. "deadline: white house" starts right now. ♪♪ hi, everyone, it's 4:00 in new york. i'm ali velshi in for nicolle wallace. this week marks a watershed moment for jack smith's election case against donald trump. a three-judge panel will hear arguments on a question that's got big stakes for democracy. does the presidency confer, quote, absolute immunity, end quote, against prosecution for trump's conduct while in office,

as trump's lawyers are arguing? or is that claim not just constitutionally wrong, but also say license for future presidents to commit crimes while in office, as the justice department argues? and on the eve of a hearing on the question of whether trump can be prosecuted for his actions while in office, we are learning incredible new details about what donald trump said on january 6 and what h did and did not do. thanks t testimony, to the special l closest aides, the deputy chief of staff dan scavino. from that reporting, quote, sources say scavino told smith's investigators as the violence began to escalate that day, trump was just not interested in doing more to stop it sources also say that the former trump aidk luna told federal investigators that when trump wa informed that then-vice

president mike pence had to be ush rushed to a secure location, trump responded so what. luna saw an unexpected willingness by trump to let potential harm come to a long time loyalist. and trump called the mob my people. as cassidy hutchinson said. abc news reports, scavino told smith's team that trump was, very angry that day. not angry to what his supporters were doing to the pillar of american democracy, but steaming that the election was allegedly stolen from him and his supporters who were angry on his behalf. scavino described it all as very unsettling, sources sa. scavino as td the special counsel that he was the one who posted the tweet from trump telling the rioters, quote,o

stay peaceful. once again fm abc, scavino printed out propod messages to post on twitter, hoping that trump would approve them despite his reluctance to write such posts himself. and sources say even trump's daughter ivanka rushed down to the oval office dining room, to convince her father that issuing a public message could discourage violence, agency the congressional report put it. and then with that, trump finally allowed to post supporting law enforcement and staying peaceful. that's where we start with investigative reporter for "the washington post," carroll lenning and former united states attorney harry litman. and coast how to win 2024 podcast claire mccaskill. welcome all of you.

claire, good to have you in the mix with us. on the one hand, it's surprising we're still getting new information and that there's still things about january 6 that we didn't completely know. but none of it is good for donald trump. it all sort of doubles down on what we believe donald trump was or wasn't doing that day, and his consciousness, how bad what was going on at the capitol actually was. >> i've got to tell you, ali, i don't think anybody should be surprised at this testimony. we know he loves to watch his televisions, instead of actually doing the work of being a president. we know he was sitting in that dining room, right off the oval office, watching television, seeing in realtime the violence that was unfolding. police officers being attacked. and we know he did nothing. and, frankly, he'd been saying for years now, he was enjoying it. he thought it was great. he thought it was exactly what needed to happen. he had no problem with pence being threatened. he's the one that was calling

for him to be held accountable and calling him a coward, and doing all of the things that incited that mob to do the things they did that day, including chanting "hang mike pence." so, i don't think any of this is surprising. you know what's shocking to me about it is dan scavino is still with donald trump. >> uh-huh. >> think about that for a minute. imagine, i think about the rooms i've been in when bad things were happening around the world and powerful people were in the room, trying to figure out the best way forward. and i'm trying to imagine people in that room, watching what that man was doing when he had an obligation to stop the violence and instead, relishing it, and still standing by him. what kind of guy is this, that's what i find shocking about it. >> and harry, look, sounds like a lot of these people are in their testimony, truthful though it may be are sort of saying wasn't me. we were all trying to tell this guy to slow things down.

and they're all piling on. and the fact that donald trump was not aware of the level of danger that was under way at that time, and to some degree, actively disregarded it. and in fact in some other testimony, may have -- i don't know what the legal term is -- but allowed the anger that could have resulted in remarkable harm to his own vice president is becoming clearer and clearer. >> yeah, that's right. and point one is, of course, we know the difference with a guy like scavino between people who would thumb their nose at the committee but couldn't for jack smith. so the extra muscle of the doj means we're going to see more evidence. look, i think claire is right being at peace with the public record. but if you think of it from the vantage point of the prosecution, the one thing that trump could maybe try by surrogates to claim a trial is it took him by surprise, never knew this could happen. >> right. >> you've heard claims of that, it seems dubious.

but you take scavino and put him on the stand, anybody who had that attitude, of course, would have been mortified and done anything to stop it. not rejoice and say who will cares about pence, et cetera. while he's at peace with what we know, it's very, very powerful evidence if you look at it through the prism of what jack smith has to prove at trial. it's pretty much a nail in the coffin of trump's intent. >> carol, i just want to the remind people, cassidy hutchinson talking about what happened when mark meadows, her boss, found out that people are calling for mike pence to be hanged. and what the response was. let's just play that. >> i remember saying about, mark, we need to do something more. they're literally calling for the vice president to be effing hung. and mark had responded something to the effect, you heard him, he

thinks mike deserves it, he doesn't think they're doing anything wrong. to which he says something this is acting crazy, we need to be doing something more. >> pat, pat being pat cipollone. as you put meat on these bones, what seems to be happening, donald trump's ability to say i was not aware of what was going on or what people's intentions are is melting away? >> right, ali. i feel like claire and harry hit the nail on the head. it's of a piece we are not surprised. in a book that phil rucker and my coauthor wrote in the beginning of 2021, we summarized this final year and this moment. every single person that was with donald trump that day, of course, we didn't know about scavino, was shocked, that the president seemed to basically

put himself in his tv dining room, and watch, like he was popping popcorn in his mouth. interested and perhaps irritated that he had lost the election. but certainly, encouraged, by the outpouring of people who were violently trying to take matters into their own hands and block the peaceful transfer of power which is what donald trump had been trying to do for two months since finding out he had lost an election. i also think it's really important to recognize the gradations of each individual who was dealing with this. let's go through a couple of them. you rightly pointed out what pat cipollone's reaction was, we've got to do effing more as cassidy hutchinson describes it. you had mark meadows, the chief of staff, sort of shaking his head and saying i can't get him to do anything. you've got ivanka trump as we

reported in our book, ivanka trump repeatedly going down trying to get her father to take some sort of action, and ultimately, succeeding because he takes after multiple and unsuccessful tries, he tapes a recording to his viewers, later in the afternoon, saying they should stand down. although he thanks them and tells them that they're great people. every single individual who came in contact with the president that day, his most close advisers, his tightest people, his daughter, wanted him to do something. and he resisted. resisted doing something, because, as we all know, as he told us when we went to interview donald trump in april of 2021, i wanted what the rioters wanted. i wanted what they wanted, which was to stop this election from being affirmed. >> let me ask you about that, harry, the gradations, the not

only the people involved, but the number of ways in which trump was asked to rein this back. i want to quote more from this abc news reporthi says after unsuccessfully trying for up to 20 minutes to per trump trump to release some sort of calming statement, scavino and others walked out of the dining room leaving trump alone, sources said. that's when according to sources trump posted a message on his twitter account saying that pence, quote, didt have the courage to do what shod have been done, end quote. trump's aides told investigators they were shocked by t post. aside from p, scavino was the o other person with access to trump's twitter account and he was often the one posting messages to . so when theessage about pence popped up, cipollone and other white house attorney racedo findscavino, demanding to know why he would post that in the midst of a precarious situation. some of trump's aides returned to the dinele room to explain to

trump that a public attack on pence was not what, quote, what we need, but it true, trump responded, sources told abc news. tell me about that, we're not arguing what trump knew or didn't know, but the idea that, as carol says those around him trying to encourage him to do the right thing and he's actively doing the wrong thing? >> yeah, and we're getting within the shadow, we'll see what happens at the d.c. circuit court of appeal, in the shadow of the trial. so i again want to think of this in the prism, through the proof, that jack smith will present to the jury. the gradation point, it comes down to who is telling the jury what. when you get a guy scavino, an absolute confirmed loyalist, his whole life owes everything to donald trump, and when people like him are giving up these details it's all the more powerful. one rich point that we didn't know in today, he's the guy in trump's immunity papers, he

talks a good deal, i said peaceful, i said peaceful. turns out he didn't even say that, the person who actually put it out there was scavino. and scavino will testify do that. so these are the sort of rich details that just bury him in front of a jury and that's how i begin to think of the latest revelations. not what will we know in the public from january 6. >> right. >> but how jack smith is going to convict donald trump. >> youknow, the thing that sticks out to me, claire, was not something that was legal that came out about this reporting, the same report according to sources, when speaking with smith's team, scavino recalled telling trump in a phone call the night of january 6th, quote, this is all your legacy here, and there's smoke coming out of the capitol, end quote. scavino hoped trump would finally help facilitate a peaceful transfer of power, sources said. it's not just that trump doesn't seem to care that would be his legacy, he's embraced the worst parts of what happened on

january 6. he's called the people convicted heroes. he refers to them as hostages which is kind of remarkable, because they're convicted. he's not embarrassed by it. so when there's smoke coming out of the capitol and scavino tells him this is your legacy, i'm most baffled by the idea that it appears he didn't care or actually liked it. >> no, i think he wants this as his legacy, i think he is proud that he caused this. i think he is proud that people were willing to go to these lengths on his behalf. they were willing to break the law and attack police officers. i don't think there's an ounce of remorse in donald trump about inciting an insurrection and fighting the voters of this country, the result that they demanded with their votes in the presidential election. and, you know, now, as harry said, we now know, i assumed that the tweet about pence that came after the violence had

begun, and after there were real threats to mike pence, i assumed that maybe scavino had done that tweet. we now know that it was donald trump's thumbs that tweeted that tweet, at a point in time that pence was under danger. that is powerful proof. he cannot run from this now. and the fact that he's owning it on the campaign trail. >> yes. >> and now he's got his sycophants, stefanik said yesterday she called them hostages. >> carol leonnig, as said, some of these new facts are newish to us, we don't know the specifics but the contours are not new all. including reporting in your book "i alone can fix it." that the others who tried to call, tried to send donald trump a message either couldn't get through or figure head didn't

want to hear it that a little tweet here is not going to solve the problem. he's going to actually have to do something to stop the violence, that part, we've known for some time. >> yes, we have. and also, i'll have to say, we know from other great reporting about fox news and discovery in a lawsuit, all of the fox news hosts that wanted to burnish donald trump's reputation and legacy and ride along with him to his re-election, they were texting. don junior was texting at this time, get him to do something. this is the end of a legacy. sean hannity, laura ingraham, don junior himself remember those moments because those were pretty pithy. i want to underscore, ali, if i can, something that harry said a minute ago about the proof that jack smith has to bring. look, all of the things in this new reporting that i think we'll see at trial, i know, i don't

normally speculate, but i'm just going to guess that if we see something about that trial about all of these texts, it will be that last one. when donald trump, when everybody left the room after they tried to encourage him to be peaceful, decided instead, to, after 2:00, after the capitol police chief had called a code red riot. and asked for emergency help from the national guard, donald trump, as claire said beautifully, thumbed another basically sick 'em on the vice president. which if you remember from your own excellent live television feeds, a rioter read aloud from a bull horn, read donald trump's text to the kind of frumpy crowd, that's what will be read at trial and explained in detail. >> i appreciate the analysis,

carol leonnig, thank you. and harry. claire is going to stick around because we haven't seen her for a while. when we come back, trump's case tomorrow on the case of presidential immunity is not the only time we'll see the president this week he'll be attending several courtrooms adding more grist to the campaign. plus, one of the parties in washington speaking over the weekend refused to say whether she would certify the 2024 election results while maintaining her support for those who chose democracy over action. elise stefanik sounding like he's laying the groundwork for the platform and perhaps sending in the audition tape for donald trump's pick for v.p. and then delivering a big address on the poise than is white supremacy in america. all of those stories and more when "deadline: white house" continues after this. : white ho" continues after this her2-negative, node-positive,

early breast cancer with a high chance of returning, as determined by your doctor when added to hormone therapy. hormone therapy works outside the cell... while verzenio works inside to help stop the growth of cancer cells. diarrhea is common, may be severe, or cause dehydration or infection. at the first sign, call your doctor, start an antidiarrheal, and drink fluids. before taking verzenio, tell your doctor about any fever, chills, or other signs of infection. verzenio may cause low white blood cell counts, which may cause serious infection that can lead to death. life-threatening lung inflammation can occur. tell your doctor about any new or worsening trouble breathing, cough, or chest pain. serious liver problems can happen. symptoms include fatigue, appetite loss, stomach pain, and bleeding or bruising. blood clots that can lead to death have occurred. tell your doctor if you have pain or swelling in your arms or legs, shortness of breath, chest pain, and rapid breathing or heart rate, or if you are nursing, pregnant, or plan to be. i'm making my own way forward. ask your doctor about everyday verzenio.

(♪♪) entresto is the #1 heart failure brand prescribed by cardiologists. it was proven superior at helping people stay alive and out of the hospital. don't take entresto if pregnant; it can cause harm or death to an unborn baby. don't take entresto with an ace inhibitor or aliskiren, or if you've had angioedema with an ace or arb. the most serious side effects are angioedema, low blood pressure, kidney problems, or high blood potassium. ask your doctor about entresto for heart failure.

with one week to go before voting starts in the 2024 election cycle, donald trump is turning his legal troubles into campaign stops in an attempt to air his grievances directly to the voters. tomorrow, as we discussed, he's expected to be in washington, for arguments over his claim of presidential immunity in his federal election interference case. on wednesday, he's set to counterprogram the republican primary debate with a town hall on fox news. thursday, he'll be back in new york for closing arguments in his civil fraud trial. and on monday, a week from now, votes will be cast in the iowa caucus.

next tuesday, a trial is set to begin to determine the damages in e. jean carroll's defamation case against donald trump. that's just the next eight days. joining me nbc legal analyst lisa rubin. claire is with us. lisa, let's start with the three next days, the obligations and what his role is going to be or not. we're never quite sure with donald trump where he shows up and what he's going to do. we've got the arguments in the closing case tomorrow, closing arguments january 11th, tuesday, e. jean carroll. >> let's start with the promise of the question which is framing the legal obligations because i want to take issue with that. they're not obligations. in fact, in none of these circumstances does former president trump have to attend at all. to the sent that he and his proxies are characterizing these as requirements and obligations. >> i understand.

>> folks like you and i should push back. >> got it. >> particularly when it comes to tomorrow, these things, tomorrow when he shows up in the immunity claims he will be there as a spectator. to the point that he makes political hay outside of the courtroom is his role entirely. it's an argument where lawyers for jack smith and former president trump will face a battery of questions before a three-judge panel in federal appeals court in d.c. on thursday, similarly, we've got final or closing arguments in the new york civil fraud trial brought by the new york attorney general. again, former president trump has no role there. it's a series of arguments that will be made to the judge that was a nonjury trial. presumably, when it's over or on breaks we can expect the former president to do what he's done all along in that case. >> right. >> which is to face cameras in the courtroom hallway and turn that into somewhere between a

runway and ongoi fund raiser. the flowing tuesday, january 16th, that's the big question for me. that's the second e. jean carroll trial as you noted. tuesday should start with jury selection. whether he shows up or not is an open question, but as you and i were discussing before the segment began, federal court is a really different place than state court. and i don't believe that former president trump will have the latitude to turn that courthouse into the sort of circus-like atmosphere that he's succeeded in with respect to the civil fraud trial. >> and because if he wanted to make an appearance, he'd have to set it up, he'd have to be a stage somewhere, and he'd have to tell people -- >> i can't imagine that the security committee of the southern district of new york will allow former president trump to hold any sort of press availability within the confines of that courthouse. if he wants to do it, he does it outside. he'll have to arrange that between the secret service and new york police department, et cetera. but it's not going to happen on their watch in that building.

>> claire mccaskill, if he didn't have these things that donald trump claims are sort of legal obligations but lisa has said are not, he'd still have a really busy week. he's not participating in the debates for the iowa caucus of which he's leading by high double digits but he's going to do his counterprogramming on fox and then he's got the iowa caucus on monday. what do you make of the political side of this week? >> yeah, i think what lisa says is really important for us to remember. donald trump is attending these events not because he needs to, not because he has to, not because it's in his legal best interests, but because he wants the coverage this week, leading up to iowa, to be all about his narrative that he is a victim of government weaponization against him. that, you know, they're trying to keep me out of office. they're trying to scope me from fighting for you. he is looking at the iowa caucuses as his moment to

definitively become the nominee. if he dominates in iowa, i don't care if nikki haley has moment item, if he dominates in iowa, she would have to win new hampshire and win south carolina, and there isn't any polling that indicates she's in the position to do that. so we're going to talk more about these events if he's there, and he knows that. this is all political strategy at this point. it has nothing to do with his legal peril. it has everything to do with him wanting to become president. you know what the arguments that he's making in front of these federal judges, if he's president, it all goes away. he waves a wand and there's no more federal prosecution against him. no more convictions against him. he can't fix georgia, because a president can't fix state charges but these are all about his campaign. he sees them as essential campaign stops having nothing to do with legalities. >> it's a hard week, lisa, to

talk about things in february, but february 8, that's when the supreme court is going to hear the argument -- or review the decision about the colorado supreme court's decision to say that donald trump isn't qualified. colorado and maine have made similar decisions but in both cases they say the decisions are staid in the supreme court chimes in. >> that's right. and the ballots in colorado will continue to exist that way unless and until the court says differently. colorado has its primary on march 5 that is the day after the election interference case where he's advancing those immunity cases is staid but otherwise scheduled to go forward. all of these things are starting to converge on themselves, ali. if you're having trouble keeping it straight in your head, you're not alone, i am, too. that's because the entire calendar is blanketed with trump legal proceedings and the ways in which they all interact with one another. i personally don't think that

the supreme court will agree that colorado was right to disqualify him. but i also do think by the time we get to february 8th, we will likely have a is decision from the d.c. circuit on his claim that he's immune from prosecution, and he'll lose on that one. >> claire, i don't intend to go up against lisa what a court might or might not do, donald trump and his surrogates had been -- mostly his surrogates, had been hinting that there are supreme court justices who owe donald trump some stuff. in fact, they targeted brett kavanaugh in particular to say, don't make the wrong decision here, you earned your job because of trump. >> well some of the most respected conservative judges in the country have advanced the same position that the colorado supreme court took. so, in this case it was not brought by left-wing democrats. it was brought by republican voters. this is really a case by the law. it is first impression, and i don't know if i disagree with my fellow lawyer that you have on

today. in saying that i think the supreme court will look for an off-ramp. i don't think the supreme court is ready to deny donald trump a place on the ballot. having said that, i also agree with her that he's got a much bigger problem with his immunity claims. looking at his briefs, looking at what he's claiming on immunity, you know, as we say in the ozarks, that dog don't hunt. and it is going to be, i think, very difficult for him to maintain the legal position that somehow because he was the sitting president of the united states, he could somehow prevent votes from being counted in this country and democracy having its way. >> lisa, i had a conversation with one of the conservative jurists who claire is sort of referring to about the 14th amendment case. here's what he told me on the weekend. >> this will be one of the most consequential supreme court decisions for both american democracy and for american politics, since the founding of the nation.

the disqualification clause is perhaps the most democratic provision in the constitution. ali, by the same token, it's the disqualification clause of the constitution that tells us that an insurrection or rebellion against the constitution is perhaps the most anti-democratic conduct possible in our democracy. >> so how does the supreme court square that, because what luttig is saying if you have a rebellion, that's the opposite of what we think democracy is, does the supreme court have to determine that donald trump is not involved in an insurrection or rebellion like colorado did? >> no, and it doesn't have to definitively decide that he did. its job is as a reviewing court, ali. all it has to determine is whether or not the colorado supreme court erred significantly in coming to that conclusion.

and one of the reasons that claire and i agree that the supreme court will likely take a different off-ramp from this court is solely coming to the conclusion that colorado was within its power to reach those facts doesn't resuscitate other states reaching those facts. it may be if they were to uphold the colorado decision for all of the reasons that judge luttig shared with you is not like a light switch going off sand all of a sudden, trump is disqualified. it's like a massive power outage. the ensuing litigation of whether he should or should not be qualified. and whether he's estopped from argued that he could with an election could that be monumental chaos. >> you two are wonderful, thank you. everybody should have their own personal lisa rubins and claire mccaskill to interpret this. this is difficult stuff. claire, i need you to stick

around again. coming up next, donald trump loyalist elise stefanik is staying out loud what she's been tap dancing around for years she will say anything factually unclear just to stay in donald trump's good graces. we'll explain that, next. ain tht

he hits his mark —center stage—and is crushed by a baby grand piano. you're replacing me? customize and save with liberty bibberty. he doesn't even have a mustache. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ really a circus that many of us have observed but you can't say they're lacking in contortionist. it's astounding the knots into which some lawmakers have

publicly tied themselves on the topic of january 6. congressman troy males in the blue shirt, experienced some of that, that day at the barricade, that was just inside the house chamber, fending offer the rioters. and yet, he would go on to vote against certifying the election results and would later call the death of ashli babbitt a murder. new video obtained in request from nbc news explains exactly how harrowing those moments were and his republican colleague markwayne mullin. >> we're real americans and we're sick of it. we're making it known we're sick of it. >> i'm ashamed of my congress people. they don't stand up for it. >> if his doesn't happen, there's going to be a beggar one. >> i drove 14 hours to get here

and stood in the cold to find out that mike pence is a [ bleep ] traitor, man. and i voted for that -- >> just a peaceful tourist visit. speaking of republicans who changed their tuneses since january 6, how about elise stefanik. the number four republican in the house was presented with they are own comments that evening, saying that america was anti-violence and when asked if she'd certify the election of the 2024 election, here's how she responded. >> just to be clear, i don't hear you clarifying to only certify the election results? >> no, it means if they're constitutional what we saw in 2020 was unconstitutional circumventing of the constitution, not going through state legislatures when it comes to change of election law. we're seeing this in my state of new york, we're seeing them

illegally jerrymander districts that we fairly won. as well as the unconstitutional overreach that we saw at the national level in 2020. >> joining us the former chief of staff of the department of homeland security in the trump administration miles taylor. claire is still here as well. thank you for being here. >> miles, when you first came out first anonymously and then publicly against donald trump, there were two positions that those works in the administration could have taken. one is to remain neutralish and one to say this is wrong headed as you did. elise stefanik did the opposite, he was a middle of the road republican who now says relatively crazy things on a several times a day basis. >> yeah, you know, ali, look, i'll be the first to say that i made plenty of mistakes in the process. and i think a lot of us who served in that era look back and

would have done things differently to sound the alarm even earlier. there's a different category of american that you didn't mention, and that's the category that i think elise stefanik calls in right now and it's a pretty shameful category. and that's people who still think and know that donald trump is reckless and unqualified for the presidency. and yet, go out on public television and continue to show for them. and elise is one of them who is particularly disturbing to me. this was someone who came up with me at the same time in the bush administration. i thought we shared very similar views of the republican party. and the importance of integrity in public service. i still think deep inside, elise stefanik is that person. yet, for some reason, she's doomed on the national stage. we think she is intending to stay in the ex-president's good graces to be in his administration.

but ali, i want to hone in to what you pointed to in that interview. the comments she made about not certifying the election or not quitting to certify is the tremor of an earthquake that could cause a tsunami after the election. they are already laying the groundwork maybe they don't have to certify a joe biden win if biden wins, that's extremely dangerous for democracy and we're not ready for it. >> claire, you remember in the 2020 election when friendly reporters would ask donald trump if he would accept the results of the election. he started laying the groundwork months ahead that he would not and now, elise stefanik is doing this. what do you make of why? elise stefanik actually was an important person in the republican party, till is but there are a lot of important people in the republican party who either remained republicans or who have left. who have said we will be conservatives and republicans in the future, but this man is

dangerous. why is elise stefanik not that person. >> first of all, calling elise stefanik a pretzel is not fair to pretzels everywhere. i think she is something that has decided that political power is more important than principles. that being close to power is more intoxicating than holding ton the constitution. and this is an educated woman. she knows that there's a way that we determine whether the actions of legislatures and states are constitutional. she knows that all kinds of litigation occurred in pennsylvania. she knows that none of those cases were successful in the rule of law was applied fairly and across the board. she knows all that. so, this is a little bit like lindsey graham disease, you know, he was all for john mccain, and now a man that is publicly mocking john mccain's

injuries for being a prisoner of war, i don't know, i just don't think politics is ever worth this kind of debasement. it is such a comment on their character, on their integrity. it is disgusting. and, you know, i think elise stefanik is probably going to get what she deserves. she will be very close to donald trump. whether he wins or whether he doesn't win, but i don't think history will be kind to her. i don't think that parents are going to tell their daughters i want you to grow up and be like elise stefanik. >> you are the company that you keep. just a point, for the viewers talking about ancient history of graham making fun of john mccain, he does it again this weekend. and one more complete capitulation of donald trump, coming up next, she's now calling for secretary of state lloyd austin to resign. we'll give you the details of

what prompts those calls, right after this. this r. welcome to fun dining.

>> white house is standing by, defense secrery lloyd austin as criticism grows in some circles over the lack of disclosure from the pentagon regarding his recent hospitalization and subsequent treatment in intensive care unit. austin was hospitalized on new year's day after experiencing pain following elective surgery. the following day, his responsibilities were

transferred to deputyecretary kathleen hicks vacations in puerto ricoing, it was not in two days later that she and the white house were informed of the austin's decision. the defense declared the statement, i am very glad to be on the mend and look forward to returning to the pentagon soon. i also understand the media concerns about transparency and recognize i could have done better job. i commit to doing better and about the disclosure, end quote. there are concerns for accountability on both sides of the aisle as a matter of national security but as we enter a new year, some republicans are jumping to level criticism at the white house with the conference chair, wait for it, elise stefanik calling on austin to resign. we're back with miles and claire mccaskill. miles, i always like to talk to you, but it's important to have you here because of your role in national security when you were in government. there is something different

about the defense secretary than about any other cabinet member, in that the defense secretary has specific powers and authorities that many of us who watch movies think only the president has. >> that's right. i mean, look, the national command authority and the connective tissue between the president of the united states and the u.s. troops and the u.s. nuclear arsenal and all of the activities that are undertaken in the defense department affect the united states is really different than any other department and agency. so it's the one place in government, above all others, outside of the white house, where day-to-day tracking of senior officials is actually really important. and make no mistake, adversaries know that around holidays and other times when people go on vacation, that's the time to strike. that's the time to do something to catch people off guard. and the fact that this took place over a holiday and happened gives extra concern. it's when, you know, folks, again, tend to be a little less vigilant. that's why at dod, above all other agencies, there is really

supposed to be that minute-by-minute tracking of who is in charge when and where they are. even at dhs, when i was chief of staff there, my movements were tracked. and they were notified to other senior officials so people knew where i was. clearly, the ball was dropped here. clearly, it has potential national security implications. i think it's too far -- i think it's going too far to politicize this and call for the secretary's firing, but questions need to be answered. and there still shouldn't be the question marks hovering over this that they are at the moment. >> claire, let's talk about this, generally speaking, lloyd austin has been a guy who has shown up for the job. it's been an uniquely difficult time to be the defense secretary of the united states. we're involved in two wars that have two potential ones on if a wrong. what do you make of how this was handled and what should be done? >> well, first of all, he made a big mistake. he wanted to keep something private that was medical, and it was wrong. he should have handled it

differently. he has acknowledged that. now, the question is does he deserve leaving the office because of it? well, watch carefully the people on the armed services committees. watch the republicans on the armed services committees. it's one thing for elise stefanik, who i think we've previously identified as someone who has the integrity of a slug, it's one thing for her to say that he should resign. it's a completely different thing for roger wicker, for example, the chairman -- the ranking member of the armed services committee in the senate. he's asked for a briefing. i think that's appropriate. i think on a bipartisan basis the s.a.s. members are going to want to be briefed on exactly what happened and making sure it doesn't happen again. but i would be surprised if the republicans that serve on the armed services committee -- they know this man has a lot of respect at the pentagon and among the armed services. they know he's done a good job leading. they know this is a very difficult time to change

leadership at the military because of what's going on in the world. i'd be surprised if you saw -- if you see them politically take this up like elise stefanik has. >> thanks to both of you. miles taylor and claire mccaskill. we appreciate the time that you've taken with us today. the latest episode of claire's podcast, by the way, "how to win 2024," is available. claire and her co-host jen palmieri dive into just who donald trump would consider and should consider as his running mate. all you have to do is scan the qr code on your screen to listen to that. quick break for us. we'll be right back. >> singers: ♪ safelite repair, safelite replace. ♪ (pensive music) (footsteps crunching) (pensive music) (birds tweeting) (pensive music) (broom sweeping) - [narrator] one in five children worldwide are faced with the reality of living without food.

no family dinners, no special treats, no full bellies. all around the world, parents are struggling to feed their children. toddlers are suffering from acute malnutrition, which stunts their growth. kids are forced to drop out of school so they can help support their families. covid, conflict, inflation and climate have ignited the worst famine in our lifetime. and we're fed up. fed up with the fact that hunger robs children of their childhood. fed up with the lack of progress. fed up with the injustice. help us brighten the lives of children all over the world by visiting getfedupnow.org. for as little as $10 a month, you can join save the children as we support children and families in desperate need of our help. now is the time to get fed up and give back. when you join the cause, your $10 monthly donation can help communities in need of life-saving treatments and nutrients, prevent children from dropping out of school.

support our work with communities and governments to help children go from short-term surviving to long-term thriving. and now thanks to special government grants, every dollar you give before december 31st can multiply up to 10 times the impact. that means more food, water, medicine and help for kids around the world. you'll also receive a free tote bag to share your support for children in need. childhood without food is unimaginable. get fed up. call us now or visit getfedupnow.org today.

[dice dreams game] when i grow up, i want to be just like my mom. eva longoria. she's really famous and rich, because she steals money from her friends. she's taking money from my dad. she wants to destroy him. ah... it's dice dreams. dice dreams, attack your friends and steal their coins. play now.

they had an almost billion-dollar cost overrun on the magnetic elevators. think about it. magnets. now, all i know about magnets is this. give me a glass of water, let me drop it on the magnets, that's the end of the magnets. why didn't they use john deere? why didn't they bring in the john deere people? do you like john deere? i like john deere. >> we like john deere too. but just so we're clear, magnets absolutely do work underwater. our democracy and our economy aside, let's say the only thing that matters to you going into the 2024 election is mental acuity? republicans eagerly insist donald trump clears president biden in that arena. but if that inane rambling on the nature of magnets this weekend didn't jog your memory take a moment to recall the type of stable genius we're talking about here. >> they sacrifice every day for the furniture -- future of their children. >> tim apple. >> mike pounds. >> i know words. i have the best words.

>> yosemites. >> nam booea. >> it looks like he broke the one rule of eclipse ruling. don't look at the sun without your eclipse glasses. >> i'm a have i stable genius. >> disinfectant where it knocks it out in a minute. one minute. and is there a way we can do something like that by injection. >> i tested positively toward negative, right? >> person, woman, man, camera, tv. they say that's amazing. how did you do that? i do it because i have like a good memory, because i'm cognitively there. >> and they want president biden to take a cognitive test. go figure. still to come, president joe biden in south carolina today rallying african american voters, again rebuking his likely 2024 rival. the next hour of "deadline: white house" starts right after a quick break. "deadline: white house" starts right after a quick break. right here in our own backyard are facing hunger every day without healthy food

it's harder to grow, to thrive, to feel their best. the impact when children don't have enough to eat is tremendous, because when you're hungry and your basic needs aren't being met, you cannot learn. that's why i'm here now, asking you to join me in helping end child hunger in america. this is a problem we know how to solve and we can do it better by supporting no kid hungry for just $0.63 a day, only $19 a month. you can help provide healthy meals like a good breakfast in class to power kids through their days. breakfast in the classroom contributes to kids being more focused, which leads to higher grades, test scores and simply just their well-being. ensuring all kids get a good breakfast and other nutritious food is a beautiful thing. it's a game changer and you can help make it happen when you join me in supporting no kid hungry today. that food is not just food.

it's energy, health, confidence, hope, and even love. yes, love. so please call now or go online to helpnokidhungry.org right now give $19 a month, only $0.63 a day. and when you use your credit card, you'll get this special team t-shirt to show that you're helping kids build a brighter future for themselves. thank you. families are struggling to make ends meet. these are hard times, but together we can help connect america's kids with meals. so please call now or go online to give. thank you.

the word of god was pierced by bullets and hate and rage. propelled by not just gunpowder but by a poison. a poison that's for too long haunted this nation. what is that poison? white supremacy. it is. it's a poison. throughout our history. it's ripped this nation apart. it has no place in america. not today, tomorrow or ever. >> hi again, everyone. it's 5:00 in new york. i'm ali velshi in for nicolle wallace. fresh off a fiery speech on the eve of january 6th where he addressed the critical decision about the fate of our democracy that this country will make in november, president biden today with another powerful address drawing a clear line that hate and racism have no place here in america. the president spoke this afternoon at mother emmanuel

a.m.e. church in charleston, south carolina, the site of a horrific mass shooting by a white supremacist nine years ago. the president talked of the pain and suffering that day, how it was a moment that awakened this country. yet that same threat of white supremacy remains. biden's remarks on the need to root out racism and extremism in this country drawing a stark contrast with his likely opponent in the 2024 race, who just this weekend at a rally said that the civil war could have been negotiated. a comment which prompted thi response from former congresswoman liz cheney. "which part of the civil war could have been negotiated? the slavery part? the secession part? whether lincoln should have preserved the union? questions for members of the gop, the party of lincoln, who have endorsed donald trump. how can you possibly defend this?" cheney getting to the point that underscores all of this. it's not just trump. white supremacy is now inextricably linked to today's republican party. just recently trump's primary opponent nikki haley, the former

governor of south carolina, did not acknowledge slavery as the cause of the civil war. we've seen those in the gop launch attacks on school curriculums, trying to deny the true history of black americans. we've seen them engage with about white supremacists, espouse hateful rhetoric, go after immigrants, meaning the fight for freedom and justice is very much ongoing. as president biden recognized today. >> we can't just choose to learn what we want to know and not what we should know. we should know the good, the bad, the truth of who we are. that's what great nations do, and we're a great nation, the greatest of all nations. we're not perfect. but at our best we learn from our past and we look to the future. a nation continuously striving to be a more perfect union. >> and that's where we start this hour with princeton university professor and distinguished political scholar eddie glaude. plus political strategist matt dowd. and here with me at the table

"new york times" editorial board member mara gay. welcome to all of you. mara, let me start with you because joe biden is leaning into this. he started his 2020 campaign with a discussion about the soul of the nation. at that point it was charlottesville. which still seemed like a bit of an outlier back then. the weirdness of charlottesville and people would be marching through the streets with tiki torches. it's building much more mainstream under donald trump. and joe biden feels like this is the thing to campaign on. >> well, i think we know that americans do care about democracy. i also think it's appropriate that these remarks were given in a historically black church and of course where the tragic horrific racist shooting happened in 2015. i was actually there in the aftermath of that, covering that as a news reporter. it was just horrendous time. so i think it's appropriate because the relationship between citizenship for black americans and democracy has always been

extremely close in this country. and so black americans really fully understand just how closely tied our rights are to rights for all people in the united states. and i think that joe biden understands that too. this is part of why the black voters have been so closely allied in recent years with the democratic party. they see that connection. and they see republicans in this moment, in these times as not just espousing policies that they don't like but actually as being anti-democratic in this moment. it's very easy for black americans to see when you have a history in this country being denied your rights. so i'm glad that we're having this conversation. and i actually think it's really high time for us to confront white supremacy and the role it plays in our politics in general. so it's really nice to see not just joe biden but republicans as well like liz cheney weighing in and making that connection. so i think too many americans

don't know even just basic facts about our history. it seems like maybe we need to go there. >> yeah. surprising but yeah, i think we do. maybe not surprising, eddie glaude. the grievance politics of donald trump and the republican party are becoming intertwined with this white supremacy issue. much in the way as president biden acknowledged today that occurred after the civil war with the lost cause narrative gaining ground. there's this weird grievance narrative tied to white people and their history in this country that is taking deep root within the republican party at the moment. >> you know, ali, that's absolutely right. the president actually called it a second lost cause. and in that sense there's this narrative, this effort to rewrite the story of the united states, to reject our efforts to actually achieve a genuinely multiracial democracy and tell ourselves a story that affirms

our inherent goodness and downplays the ugliness of our past and present. so i think it's really important for us to understand this contradiction that's been at the heart of the american experiment since the beginning. our idea of ourselves as a democracy committed to the equality of all persons, that everyone has dignity and standing, and our commitment to the idea of whiteness. so america has been imagined as a nation of laws, as a country predicated upon an idea, and at the same time, ali, it has been imagined as a nation predicated on blood or race. and you can see that contradiction in our immigration law. and it's clashing over and over again. and it resulted in over 700,000 people dead in the civil war, and we're still fighting that civil war right now. and president biden named it this morning -- today. and i think that's really important as we move forward. >> matt, there's some concern in the democratic party about two things that are going on.

one is a lack of enthusiasm among certain groups that have said that they may not come out to vote for joe biden or not enough's happened. the white house and the administration are sort of trying to respond with this idea that this election is existential. right? everybody says it's the most important election of our time, but this time it might actually be. whether the issue is democracy or the issue is freedoms and reproductive rights or racial equality or the economy. how do you think things are going so far in this campaign and what would you like to see happen? >> well, first, ali, i'm so glad we're having this conversation. we could go on days on this conversation because i think it's that important. i actually think, and i've said so all along, and i know eddie and i have had this conversation a number of times, that fundamentally this race needs to be about the existence of democracy and what that means and the moral cause of democracy. so i think the president's right about that. but one thing i think politicians need to understand, people that want elections need to understand, is that voters

act in their self-interest. abraham lincoln knew this. when you go back and look at all of lincoln's arguments that he made in the great moral cause of the union, he made many of those arguments in voter self-interest. and i think what you have to do is why does democracy matter to the average person in their living room, not just theoretical and not just as a moral cause but as a practical cause? what does that mean for their ability to get a minimum wage? what does that mean to get hired in a job? what does democracy mean in order to protect women's health freedoms? what does democracy mean in order to do something about climate change? all of those issues are completely dependent on the existence of democracy and on the existence of the will of the people. that's one hand. the other part of this conversation, i think it's so important, is this is -- for us to say that this shouldn't be part of america today ignores the fact that many times it has been part of america as eddie said. let me give you a reason why

this resonates so well and why trump and the republicans use this issue. and i would call it white christian nationalism. because it's not just about race, it's about whether or not you're other on religion. whether you're a muslim. whether you're a jew. all of those things are tied together in a faith and a racial way in white christian nationalism. for 200 years of our country, ali, white male christian straight people held 95% of the positions of power. for 200 years. 95% were held by white male christian straight people. and only in the last 30 years has that number gone down to 80%. and that group of people represent 27% of the population. white christian male straight people represent -- and what donald trump is leaning into this idea that these people have a grievance that they now only hold 80% of the positions of power. and that's the problem that we have, is not only is it an unwillingness to share, it's an

unwillingness to even give people more of a seat at the table. people aren't arguing oh, only give those folks 27%. the fact that 80% of them still have power but are still so concerned really goes to the poison that exists in the american soil that has existed for 250 years. >> that's an amazing comparison that i hadn't heard. mara, i guess for the people who are frustrated, for whom not enough has happened, and there are valid concerns. lots of groups in america. your priority may be x and you don't think joe biden or the democrats are leaning far enough into x. to matt's point, the only way you're going to get farther or you're going to get this government to do more is if you preserve democracy. it's a hard argument to make because when people are talking about their self-interest they're not really quite sure of how this whole democracy thing relates to me but it relates to you because if it disappears you're not fixing the climate, you're not fixing racial inequality, you're not fixing whatever your concern happens to

be. >> that's right. i actually was in georgia talking to voters late last year about this very issue. a lot of democrats in the base there are really not super enthusiastic about voting for joe biden or the democrats because they're struggling. you know, the economy might be great on wall street, but if you're paying rent, either the cost of groceries, the cost of light, it's difficult. so really biden and the democrats need to do two things. they need to walk and chew gum. they have to acknowledge that pain. they have to say we need to do better. but they also need to be able to say we need you to show up for america, and in return we're going to still have a democracy where we can actually meet the needs of citizens in a multiracial democracy. but if that doesn't happen i think we need to start talking about what fascism looks like. and i hope we can be kind of more open about that. again, i thought that liz cheney did a really excellent job of calling trump out when she said, well, what would that negotiation have looked like?

place of the civil war? what would the deal have been? we'll keep slavery but tweel preserve the union? by the way, that was a deal that was on the table for abraham lincoln. >> they were trying to negotiate this. >> there were democrats who were pushing for that. this isn't a historical sense that this can't happen here. no, no, it can happen here. we did have fascists here who were interested in taking power. we had anti-democratic movements across the united states south. and i think we need to get real about what that looks like because americans might be frustrated with, you know, the democratic party failing to deliver on certain issues like student loans, et cetera. that's very real. that needs to be addressed. but at the same time what is the alternative right now? it's pretty scary. and it's not going to deliver. for those americans either. >> eddie, you and i had a remarkable conversation yesterday about some of what's starting to feel like a backlash to what matt was just talking

about. some people who are getting kind of fed up with the changes that they've seen in america. we have a former president, donald trump, who speaks the language of fascism increasingly. and we talk about it. and there are reasonable people who will say to me or probably v probably to all of us on this panel you people need to stop having your hair on fire about fascism, that's an exaggeration. but it's not. and how do you marry what matt said with the reality that most dictatorial regimes, most authorityians don't take over by revolution, they take over because people give up their rights? >> this is what hannah arent wrote about, the banality of evil. how we tumble into totalitarian fascist regimes, through our everyday choices, everyday actions. so we are obviously and rightly so attuned to the loud racists, the people who are declaring the ugliest things out of their mouths. but those folks who are silent in their complicity are the ones who actually make it all happen.

right? and so we have to be very, very deliberate in this. and let's be clear. there was negotiation, ali. it happened in 1876 with the rutherford b. hayes compromise. and from 1876 to 1954 we lived in an ethnonationalist state. we've only been a multiracial democracy since 1965. let's be clear. 1965. i was born in 1968. so the data matthew just laid out bears true when it comes to the history of the country. and so part of what we have to do is to be very honest and direct in how we describe the moment. and we have to be clear. what liz cheney did, what we need to do with marjorie taylor greene, is what we need to do with our family members. oftentimes we know they hold noxious views but we want to keep them close because we love them. but we have to call this stuff out or we're going to fall face

first into fash sxmz there's going to be hell to pay. >> you know some people are not evildoers. they're not promulgating this stuff, but they live in it and they think it's okay because they're not suffering from it. they're not understanding how bad it can get, us can get. timothy snyder was telling me on friday, he said the 20th century could have been germany's century but for some very bad decisions that they made in the 1930s. america can lose the 21st century. it can lose the influence it's got around the world because we may be set to make some bad decisions this year. >> well, we've made some bad decisions this year. and i'll answer your question, but i'll start with i do -- i think this moment is incredibly important. we now actually are -- we're looking at this actually for the first time in our history. right? the poison that is in the american soil, we've sort of looked at briefly and then covered up and moved on and then

did a few things and moved on. but now it's confronting us. right? now we have to confront this christian white nationalism, white supremacy that's in our soil, and we have to dig it up and finally dig it up and be rid of it that's poisoning all of us, poisoning everyone in this country. and it's poisoned us for 250 years. to me first i agree with eddie, we have to speak truth and we have to call it what it is and we have to say what it is. but i think the ways we do that in our communities and with our families, which i think is incredibly important, as soon as this thing becomes a political argument we start losing people. but you can relate in my view, and i have family members who have been in the same mode, you have to do it in a way that draws out the values that you share, that draws out the values -- before you say donald trump's an idiot and donald trump's a fascist and whatever the thing happens to be, you have to do it in a way of we share certain values. we share the idea that we should respect everybody. we share the idea that everybody

should be -- that people should be cared for. we should take care of people. you would do it in your community. i do it in mine. whatever that happens to be. and once you get people to a point where they understand the shared values that you have, then you can have the political conversation. but the only way this works fundamentally is it has to be changed from the bottom up, not from the top down. and the bottom up starts with us in our relationships, in our families, in our communities, in a truthful, kind but truthful way. we have to have those conversations. >> matt, you're right. and we appreciate that. thank you very much for that. eddie, always good to see you, my friend. thank you for both starting us off this hour. mara's going to stick around. when we return, donald trump once again mocking the late senator john mccain during a campaign stop in iowa. it's part of a long pattern by the disgraced ex-president to belittle and disparage america's military heroes. and it was met with a stinging rebuke by mccain's daughter. we'll talk about that next.

plus the united states supreme court's decision to allow idaho's strict abortion ban to stand, making abortion a crime even when a woman's life is gravely in danger. and the start of a major corruption trial against the nra came just days after the organization's long-time leader, who stood in the way of common sense safety legislation throughout decades of mass shootings in this country, is out. "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. don't go anywhere.

the first time you connected your godaddy website and your store was also the first time you realized... well, we can do anything. cheesecake cookies? the chookie! manage all your sales from one place with a partner that always puts you first. (we did it)

start today at godaddy.com ♪ (upbeat music) ♪ ( ♪♪ ) constant contact's advanced automation lets you send the right message at the right time, every time. ( ♪♪ ) constant contact. helping the small stand tall. the power goes out and we still have wifi constant contact. to do our homework. and that's a good thing? great in my book! who are you? no power? no problem. introducing storm-ready wifi. now you can stay reliably connected through power outages with unlimited cellular data and up to 4 hours of battery back-up to keep you online. only from xfinity. home of the xfinity 10g network.

he's not a war hero. >> he's a war hero. 5 1/2 years -- >> he's a war hero because he was captured. i like people that weren't captured. >> i gave him the kind of

funeral that he wanted. which as president i had to approve. i wasn't a fan of john mccain. >> i figured there would be a chance that i would catch it. sometimes i'd be in groups of for instance gold star families. they come within an inch of my face sometimes. they want to hug me and they want to kiss me. >> what sacrifice have you made for your country? >> i think i've made a lot of sacrifices. i worked very, very hard. i've created thousands and thousands of jobs. tens of thousands of jobs. >> a man came up to me and he handed me his purple heart. and i said, man, that's like -- that's like big stuff. i always wanted to get the purple heart. this was much easier. >> as frequent viewers of this program know, that's just a snippet of the very long history of the ex-president's disparaging comments about military heroes and veterans. much of which wasn't even on camera. like the reporting that donald trump called fallen troops, quote, suckers and losers. or his instruction to mark

milley, then the top general of the united states, to not bring wounded veterans to public events. trump's own public suggestion just last year that milley should be executed or the fact that it took him two days and lots of public pressure to lower the white house flags after john mccain's death. mccain was a frequent target of trump's anti-military hero rhetoric and he is once again. just tr th weekend he mocked mccain's thumbs down moment, the purposeful killing of the gop's hopes to repeal obamacare. but he tried to connect it to an injury that john mccain suffered as a prisoner during the vietnam war that left him unable to lift his arms above his shoulders. watch. >> obamacare is a catastrophe. nobody talks about it. you know, without john mccain we would have had it done. but john mccain for some reason couldn't get his arm up that day. remember? he goes -- like th. that was the end of that. >> trump's distasteful comments again drew the ire of meghan

mccain who tweeted this about her father. "my dad was an american hero, an icon, a patriot that will be remembered through history. i cannot buy a bagel without someone approaching me about how much they loved and miss him. trump is a blank election denying huckster whose own wife won't campaign with him." joining our conversation is the retired united states marine corps lieutenant colonel and co-founder of operation saving democracy, amy mcgrath. mara gay is also back with us. thanks to both of you for being with us. colonel mcgrath, i just want to get your reaction first of all. i was saying to mara in the commercial break i don't know who asks donald trump to do this, what he thinks he gets from these random musings about military people and john mccain. but he does it a lot. >> he does. i think he has a personal vendetta against john mccain. i mean, even in death. why? well, john mccain is a thousand times the man that donald trump is in terms of honor, character

and integrity. you know, john mccaine was a prisoner of war for 5 1/2 years. when he was offered early release from the north vietnamese, he declined because it would go against the code of conduct, because he wanted his fellow prisoners who had been there longer to be released first. and he said famously in one of the last speeches he gave at the u.s. naval academy when asked by a mid-shipman why he would do that. he said you know what? i could be released early but what kind of life would i have lived without honor? that was john mccain. and donald trump doesn't understand that. he will never understand it. and that is why he has such an issue with him. but the thing about it is what donald trump said isn't really important. it's the fact that the republican party, republicans in congress cannot stand up to him. cannot -- why is meghan mccain

the only one repudiating what donald trump has said? why is she the only one? why can't members of congress come out and say something? why? because they will fall lock-step in with this man. and no longer is the party -- the republican party the party of national security or the party of veterans. and this is just another example of it. >> that's exactly right. this is low-hanging fruit for republicans to say don't insult john mccain and don't insult the military. >> the thing that really is revealing about this for me is you know, we've been lectured for years now, americans have, about how republicans are the party of patriots and donald trump's slogan make america great again as though those of us who have reasoned criticisms of america hate america. and yet here what we see is that

trumpism has nothing to do with loving america. it's about worshiping donald trump. this man doesn't care about america or americans. he saw the presidency as a way to profit. as a way to play footsie with dictators. meanwhile, we have actual american heroes who are maligned. and of course there was a personal vendetta that he had. but this wasn't the first time he had mocked someone who had served the country. my ufrk lz were vietnam vets. one of them died of an agent orange-related cancer a little over ten years ago now. and i just have to say this is such an example of toxic masculinity from the former president. talk about an insecurity. this is not what real men need to do. and i think it's pathetic. but i also just think it's disturbing because again, i don't see any love of america from this man. and i think we have to ask

ourselves why we've allowed a party that is worshiping one person in the style of fascists to get away with owning patriotism? i think it's completely offensive. >> right. if we have patriotism we've got to understand where the military has fallen into that. colonel mcgrath, as somebody who has served and like john mccain wanted to serve your country in different ways as well, in the united states senate, what is it -- i think mara's got a really good point here, that it is toxic masculinity. these things jumble together, but when donald trump shows you that purple heart and says oh, this was a lot easier than the way you would normally earn a purple heart, why do people not react to that in the way you would think we all do, that's just gross and you're gross? >> think people would react if they get to see that. i do believe there's lots of media outlets that aren't going

to show things like that. and we have to remind voters, because they're not watching this stuff every day, we have to remind them that donald trump did say that veterans were losers and suckers, that he did try -- or say that he was going to possibly execute the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff. we have to remind them that he wouldn't go to the graves of those marines and soldiers that died for us in the greatest generation, he wouldn't go to their graves in unusual because he didn't want to get wet. and we have to have people to remind voters who are not political people. and what i mean by that, the former secretary of defense mark esper has been very vocal in saying that donald trump is a national security threat. he's a trump appointee. there are hundreds of retired ambassadors, generals and admirals who don't want to wade into politics, who are non-partisan people who are willing to speak out.

and we need to hear more from them. the american people need to hear more from them. because that's who they're going to believe in this. and that's why it's so important. >> there are two active wars that the united states is somehow involved in at the moment and potentially others on the horizon. how your president, your commander in chief regards the military is uniquely important at this moment in time. retired united states marine corps lieutenant colonel amy mcgrath, thank you for joining us as always. thank you for being with us. mara's going to stick around. when we return, a moment abortion rights advocates have been warning about since the fall of roe. why the supreme court's decision to let a very strict abortion ban take effect in ohio is flashing red alarms around the country. y.

the company goes to the firstborn, audrey. the model train set is entrusted to todd. mr. marbles will receive recurring deliveries for all of his needs in perpetuity, thanks to autoship from chewy. i always loved that old man. what's it say about the summer house? yeah. the beach house. the summer residence goes to mr. marbles. plot twist. i'm sorry, what? doesn't make logistical sense. unbelievable. pets aren't just pets. they're more. you got a train set, todd. shop and get a $30 egift card through january 14th.

at chewy. there's news, and there's good news. like thousands of patients receiving free life changing surgeries, from volunteer doctors and nurses on hospital ships. all made possible by donations. we love good news.

i cannot adequately put into words the trauma and despair that comes with waiting to either lose your own life, your child's or both. i may have been one of the first who was affected by the overturning of roe in texas but i'm certainly not the last. >> i was shocked when i found out i would not be able to get the medical care that i need here in my home state. i think forcing me to continue the pregnancy, the pain and suffering, i think it's cruel. >> even with my health and life at risk i would not be able to terminate my pregnancy. it isn't safe to be pregnant in idaho. >> that was kate cox, amanda zurawski, and jennifer atkins, just a small sample of the pain caused when the supreme court stripped await constitutional right to an abortion. late last week in a moment that doctors, women and legal experts had been warning about since roe

overturned the supreme court set the stage for thousands more women to experience similar pain. on friday thenation's highest court allowed an idaho law to go into effect that would send doctors to prison for providing abortions to women in medical emergencies. idaho is now the second state to challenge federal provisions requiring doctors to provide women in dire health crises with stabilizing care which may include an abortion. a similar provision in texas was upheld last week. if the supreme court allows the idaho law to go into effect permanently it could strip away federal protection for women in dire health crises. oral arguments in the case of idaho are set for april, with the decision expected in june. and that's going to be far too long for women who need emergency care. joining our conversation, president and ceo of reproductive freedom for all mini timmaraju is here. mara's back with us as well. mini, you've made the point often, it's often your first

answer to some of my questions, and that is the cruelty is the point here. this is once again proof that these reasonable-sounding exceptions to abortion bans don't work because if a woman goes into a hospital in idaho or in texas and is at risk of dying but the treatment needs to be an abortion, she may not get it. >> we know that abortion extremists have no intention post dobbs of letting abortion be accessible anywhere in this country. their goal is to eradicate abortion. we know, it's so interesting that this supreme court really tried to persuade the american people that when they made the decision in dobbs they were getting out of the abortion business. and now we sea the santala case as well as the mifepristone case going to the supreme court in a matter of months. but it's because anti-abortion extremists are hellbent on making this as impossible for average americans as they can. and what that's created is an urgent need for federal legislation. this is a point i've made before

but i want to underscore, we need a federal standard. we need to bring back roe. we need to codify roe. and to do that we have to elect joe biden and we've got to win back congress. if we don't do that this court is going to be continually dealing with these cases as different circuits and different states come up with different outcomes and more and more americans' lives are at risk. >> mara, let me talk to you about an excerpt from a piece that was in slate about how women's health decisions have changed since dobbs. it's by mark joseph stern. he writes, "the conive justices could use the cases in idaho and texas to draw a line in the sand, creating a nationwide guarantee of abortion access when a patient's health is at risk. but doing so would mean admittg that last time around the court got it wrong, that oving roe did not remove the judiciary as mini just said from the abortion debate but shifted life or death decisions about pregnancy into the hands of judges who know nothing about the practice of medicine. there's little reason to believe that the supreme court will own up to its mistakes. the justices can, after all,

close their eyes to the suffering they've unleashed, a luxury that red state doctors do not have." >> you know, i actually think that this issue is going to continue to drive voters of all parties to the polls in a way that the republican party and the judges on the supreme court cannot possibly fathom in this moment. i think americans don't like their rights being taken away. we saw that in kansas with the referendum. and we saw it in michigan. >> ohio. >> ohio. we're going to see it again and again. and the reason is also because this is a life or death -- not theoretical. these are -- this is happening to real women. a 27-year-old woman in texas actually died after being denied last year, denied life-saving care in the form of an abortion as well. this is happening across america. and i think it's devastating but i think it also just reveals that really repealing roe v. wade is not about protecting

life really for many -- in many cases. what it is about is controlling women. it's about controlling women and it's about treating women as less than equal and essentially just baby-making machines. and i believe that we are worth more than that, that our lives are worth saving and that we have a right to make medical decisions about our own bodies with our providers. >> remember that time that margaret atwood wrote a novel about that and everybody said that's not going to happen. mini, to mara's point that this is not theoretical, the yorker" published a story of a woman named yeni glick who was never offered an abortion despite significant hlt risks to carrying a pregnancy to term. i' going to read you a little bit fm this. new yorker asked four outside experts to review yeni's medical file which her mother obtained. all four said that yeni's death was preventab a a therapeutic abortion if offed and accepted would probably have saved her life. joanne stone, the chair of the ob-gyn department at icon school of medicine at mount sinai and

themer president of the society for maternal fetal medicine said flatly, "if they e weren't pregnant she likely wouldn't be dead." in cases like yeni's the discussion would be do you want to continue this pregnancy. but now knowing that you're likelihood of getting really sick is super high. but the legal landscape of texas you can't even start that discussion. >> we already knew that pregnancy was one of the most dangerous times in a woman's life in this country. which is shocking. it's appalling for the level of development and wealth in this country, particularly for women of color and women in rural areas, women that are already on the margins of health care access. this case is horrifying. it's depressing. it's shocking. but it is the natural conclusion of so many of the cases you've covered on this show including amanda zurawski, including kate cox. this is what happens when life-saving care is denied. and this is the heart of what the battle is right now in this country on this issue. >> and the point you always make

to me is the solution is going to have to be a political solution. and that mara has mentioned, to some degree that's the good news here. it's starting to work. we're seeing a number of examples of it working. but it's not going to be enough. as you say, a lot more is going to have to happen for a real political solution. mini, good to see you again. thank you. mini timmaraju. and mara, thank you both for spending time with us this afternoon. when we return, a blockbuster fraud trial against the nra is under way in new york. just as the organization's long-time leader is headed for the exit. what happened today in court and the significance of wayne lapierre's resignation. right after this. ghrit after this

the corruption trial of the nra and its long-time leader wayne lapierre is under way in new york. it comes just days after lapierre suddenly announced he's resigning as the nra chief executive after serving for three decades, citing health reasons. new york attorney general letitia james sued the nra and lapierre in 2020, claiming the organization diverted millions of dollars in order to fund a number of luxuries for top officials including personal travel expenses for lapierre. james reacted to lapierre's resignation friday in a statement writing, "the end of the wayne lapierre era at the nra is an important victory in our case. lapierre's resignation validates

our claims against him, but it will not insulate him from accountability." i want to bring in the founder of moms demand action shannon watts and msnbc legal analyst lisa rubin is back with me today. but lisa, let me start with you because you and i have talked about this for a while. this is a long saga about the nra and its attempts to evade what tish james was trying to do. >> that's right. after tish james initially filed her lawsuit the nra tried to move its operations to the state of texas, where it declared bankruptcy in a federal court. a judge then in texas, after a shortened trial essentially found that the nra was trying to abuse the federal bankruptcy process, bringing the nra right back to new york to face the music with tish james. this case has been a long time in the making. and as you just noted, notwithstanding the fact that wayne lapierre has resigned from the nra after 32 years at its helm, he is still a defendant in this case and one of the things that they're seeking from him is to claw back a number of assets,

or millions of dollars really that he earned in related party transactions and in other forms of self-dealing throughout his tenure as the executive vice president and ceo of the nra. >> shannon, let's talk about the larger role of the nra. as you and i have discussed for many years, they were running a bit of a protection racket for people, particularly in congress, politicians in state and the federal legislatures who had to stand up for no changes to gun laws under any circumstance. and they ran that racket for a long time very, very successfully. you've pointed out over the last few years that groups like yours have broken into that. >> oh, absolutely. we really started moms demand action to be the opposing force to the nra. this idea that they had all these members and all this political power and all this wealthy felt were no match for an army of angry mothers. and i was right. i think women rising up against the nra was their worst

nightmare. and that's actually what ended up happening. we investigated them and exposed their misdeeds. we joined lawsuits and shined a light on their corruption. ultimately what that did was damage the organization's reputation not just with their own members but also with lawmakers and the mainstream american public. they have about half the membership they had when i started moms demand action. they have about half the revenue they have. they are a shell of their former selves. and the fact that they are going through this trial, the fact that wayne lapierre finally has resigned goes to show that it is really women who brought the nra to its knees and broke one of the most powerful power brokers that has ever existed at the helm of a lobbying organization. >> kind of interesting, shannon, because for a lot of retailers who decided not to sell certain guns it was that they realized that women are their customers, that they need that more than they need a bunch of people who need to be able to get their guns wherever they are.

lisa, the senator chris murphy commented on the resignation of wayne lapierre. he said gun reform advocate -- i'm sorry, i'm reading from an abc news report. gun reform advocate senator chris murphy said on friday that lapierre's departure from the nra is a signal of how weak the organization has become. the nra is a shell of its former self, and wayne lapierre's exit is a signal of that. >> that's absolutely true. but what will really show that the nra has lost its power is this lawsuit because ali, over the course of several weeks the attorney general plans to present evidence that will force americans to really reckon with where their money has gone if they're dues-paying members of the nra. and largely a lot of that money has gone to line wayne lapierre's pockets, to pay for he and lobbying association that it was promised. and that, really the thrust of attorney general letitia james's lawsuit, which is, i oversee charities here as the

attorney general -- you're not conducting yourself on the up and up, and i intend to show that this is what you're doing here. this isn't about what the mission of the nra's. you can bring this lawsuit against any charity that was suffering the same abuses, and indeed, in the past, attorney general james hats with respect, for example, to a trump charity. this is part and parcel of that same sort of action. >> shannon, lisa makes a really interesting point. the nra had, for years, tried to upson itself as a mom and pop, as a membership. it's a membership, dues paying organization. largest membership organization in america, whatever they used to call themselves. but it is also the lobby for the gun industry. and that's part of this whole thing. groups like yours are really individuals. people, moms, who say that -- industrial lobby. >> yeah. i mean, it was always david versus goliath. and it was ultimately david that one. i can remember seeing wayne lapierre hold this press conference just two weeks after the sandy hook school shooting

to remind everyone 20 children and six educators were slaughtered inside the sanctity of an american elementary school. and what wayne lapierre said at the moment was the only thing that can stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun. instead of backing down. that organization doubled down. and i really think that was the beginning of the end for the nra. because there was no way to continue going to the right and to still have the support of not just people in america, but even their own members. no that's not to say there aren't large right wing gun lobbying organizations that are going to spring up in the vacuum that will be created by the nra's loss of power. that certainly is and will happen. but i think the nra, as we know it, is now over. and again, that is in large part because of americans who rose up in the last decade and said, we can't live this way anymore. our children shouldn't die this way anymore. and we have to fight back. and that's exactly what they did. >> thanks to both of you. i appreciate your time, always. good to talk to you, shannon,

thank you. when we return, some breaking news in one of the cases facing donald trump in the coming days. we'll be right back. mp in the coming days we'll be right back. we'll be right back. even a little blurry vision can distort things. and something serious may be behind those itchy eyes. up to 50% of people with graves' could develop a different condition called thyroid eye disease, which should be treated by a different doctor. see an expert. find a t-e-d eye specialist at isitted.com okay everyone, our mission is to provide complete, balanced nutrition for strength and energy. yay - woo hoo! ensure, with 27 vitamins and minerals, nutrients for immune health. and ensure complete with 30 grams of protein. (♪♪)

new projects means new project managers. you need to hire. i need indeed. indeed you do. when you sponsor a job, you immediately get your shortlist of quality candidates, whose resumes on indeed match your job criteria. visit indeed.com/hire and get started today. all right. we have some breaking news to tell you about and one of the ex presidents cases that we mentioned in the last hour. the lawsuit brought by the writer e. jean carroll against donald trump. the federal appeals court has now denied donald trump's request to reconsider his bid to dismiss the lawsuit based on claims of, wait for it, presidential immunity. trump can now appeal to the supreme court, but as of now,

the trial is scheduled to begin next tuesday, where the issue won't be whether trump is liable for defaming e. jean carroll, but rather, how much trump should pay carroll in damages for defaming her. from some unity claim -- different case, the criminal case brought by the special counsel, jack smith, it's gonna be the subject of a hearing in federal court in washington tomorrow. a quick break for us, and we'll be right back. be right back. life, diabetes, there's no slowing down. each day is a unique blend of people to see and things to do. that's why you choose glucerna to help manage blood sugar response. uniquely designed with carbsteady. glucerna. bring on the day. you founded your kayak company because you love the ocean- not spreadsheets. you need to hire. i need indeed. indeed you do. indeed instant match instantly delivers quality candidates

matching your job description. visit indeed.com/hire (tony hawk) skating for over 45 years has taken a toll on my body. matci take qunol turmeriction. because it helps with healthy joints and inflammation support. why qunol? it has superior absorption compared to regular turmeric. qunol. the brand i trust. at humana, we believe your healthcare should evolve with you, and part of that evolution means choosing the right medicare plan for you. humana can help. with original medicare you're covered for hospital stays and doctor office visits, but you'll have to pay a deductible for each. a medicare supplement plan pays for some or all of your original medicare deductibles, but they may have higher monthly premiums and no prescription drug coverage. humana medicare advantage prescription drug plans include medical coverage, plus prescription drug coverage. and coverage for dental, vision and hearing. all wrapped up

into one convenient plan. plus, there's a cap on your out-of-pocket costs! humana has large networks of doctors, hospitals and specialists across 49 states. so, call or go online today and get your free decision guide. humana - a more human way to healthcare. i think he's having a midlife crisis i'm not. you got us t-mobile home internet lite. after a week of streaming they knocked us down... ...to dial up speeds. like from the 90s. great times. all i can do say is that my life is pre-- i like watching the puddles gather rain. -hey, your mom and i procreated to that song. oh, ew! i think you've said enough. why don't we just switch to xfinity like everyone else? then you would know what year it was. i know what year it is.

thank you for spending part of your monday with us. we are grateful. the beat with ari melber starts right now. good evening, ari. >> thanks, ali. and as we start the week, let me tell everyone, it is that time.