end up helping republicans a little bit because sinema was getting in polls support from moderate republicans and some republicans who weren't either happy with carrie lake or with the democratic side and likely nominee ruen gallego. and now removing her becomes a binary choice. either the republican ticket in lake or you have the democratic ticket in -- with ruben gallego. it's important to note arizona's a state where independents and unaffiliated voters are the biggest share of voters in the state. >> mark murray, good to have you. thank you very much. that is going to do it for me today. "deadline white house" starts right now. hi there, everyone. here we go. 4:00 in new york. as the stage is now set for a general election season like no

other. with the basic principles of the republic on the line. a name more famous for decades and decades than nikki haley, in republican circles, came out swinging directly at the presumptive republican nominee, donald trump, early this morning. in a post liz cheney saying this, quote, the gop has chosen. they will nominate a man who attempted to overturn an election and seize power. we -- we have eight months to save our republic, and ensure that donald trump is never anywhere near the oval office again. then liz cheney sent people to this video originally released in may. watch. >> donald trump is the only president in american history who has refused to guarantee the peaceful transfer of power. >> joe biden -- >> he lost the election and knew it. he betrayed millions of americans by telling them the election was stolen. >> we will stop the steal -- >> he ignored the rulings of dozens of courts. rather than accept his defeat, he mobilized a mob to come to

washington and march on the capitol. then he watched on television while the mob attacked law enforcement, invaded the capitol, and hunted the vice president. he refused for three hours to tell the mob to leave. there has never been a greater dereliction of duty by any president. trump was warned repeatedly that his plans for january 6th were illegal. he didn't care, and today he celebrates those who attacked our capitol. donald trump has proven he is unfit for office. donald trump is a risk america can never take again. >> the great task is responsible for the content of this advertising. >> this is particularly notable heading into another election after the political harm that liz cheney and chairman bennie thompson and the entire january 6th select committee inflicted politically on the republican brand ahead of the 2022 midterms. and let us just say this could be interesting. someone whose last name is

synonymous with the highest echelons of executive power on the right impeaching the very fitness of a member of her own party this early in a general election, this loudly and this publicly, has not happened before. her clarion call stands in stunning contrast to the rest of the party in which she served. nikki haley winning in just two places during the stage of the republican primary where it was just nikki haley against donald trump, saying she'll support the nominee. mitch mcconnell endorsing donald trump today, glossing over or swallowing, i guess, the racist attacks donald trump meefrd and over again against his wife to say nothing of the fact that trump talented mcconnell himself saying mcconnell had a, quote, death wish becausey had had the audacity to pass a bill to keep the government functioning. donald trump's grip on the party is not possible without those republican leaders abdicating their duty to say nothing of their dignity over and over and over and over, and predictably over and over and over again.

all over a person they know perfectly well is unfit to serve. the apocalyptic alternate realty trump is selling on the stump to republican voters. maybe that's why, too, in his victory speech with "the new york times" called a, quote, dark vision, trump pelled facts not in modern day realities. he claimed as he did practically every day that the united states justice system is being weaponized against him even though the 91 felony counts he faces were brought by independent prosecutors and approved by juries of his peers. trump claimed that the migrants crossing the southern border are violent criminals even though officials in his own administration said that most migrants are fleeing poverty and violence. and of course there's the big lie that he peddles all the time when he rails against the voting system even though he just won more than a dozen primaries and as far as we know hasn't contested any of those results so far. so this is what the republican

party has signed up for again. but rest of us, including millions of american voters, still have a chance to weigh in. that's where we start with some of our most favorite experts and friends. former trump white house deputy press secretary sarah mathews is here. she resigned from the trump white house on the evening of january 6th, 2021. she went on to testify publicly before the january 6th select committee. also joining us former u.s. deputy national security adviser under president barack obama, ben rhodes is here. with me at the table, former republican congressman david jolly. i'll start with you. nice to see you, my friend. this was such a bizarre -- in some ways a sad way to wake up, mitch mcconnell rolling over and endorsing trump after referring him criminally to the justice department for inciting the violence on january 6th. and then just endorsing him, didn't have to. the guy's retired. he threatened his life, threatened his wife's security with his racist attacks against her. there he was today with an

endorsement. >> yeah. nothing surprise being it. i mean, this has now happened three cycles in a row, 2016, 2020, 2024. everybody with some exceptions like liz cheney, but frankly i think what's striking is how few exceptions there are. the party leadership has rolled over. let's not forget that mitch mcconnell has repeatedly done this when he actually could have done things to avert these outcomes. you know, in 2016 when he was warned about russian interference in the election, he tried to bury that. most notably after january 6th if he had helped support impeachment in the senate after the house impeached donald trump, donald trump could not have been running for president again. so within days of a mob literally threatening the lives of mitch mcconnell and his colleagues, he faced a very fateful choice. if he had supported impeachment and tried to put his power

behind that, donald trump would have been barred from ever seeking the presidency again. so that was really the defining choice for him, and he made obviously the choice of political expediency and survival in the republican party rather than putting any other interests forward. and so it's very clarifying now. donald trump's hold to the republican party today is actually stronger than it was in 2016 or even in 2020. >> yeah. >> because he's now turned the party into a wholly owned subsidiary of his own ambitions. everybody understands that they're going to have to fall in line, and even if that means sacrificing american interests, american allies, ukraine, and above all american democracy, that doesn't matter to them. and that's why it's going to take a pretty broad coalition of people pushing against that. it's not just something joe biden is going to do on his own for a lot of reasons. it's going to have to be a large consolation of americans coming together and saying this is a risk we cannot take. a second trump term would be much more dangerous and destabilizing than the first

trump term because he's coming back for vengeance and coming back with an extreme group around him and plan to dismantle democrat tracey. that's what this election is going to be about. >> sarah, you've talked about this publicly. john kelly has talked about serving as a bit of a guardrail around the time that trump was tweeting about little rocket man on an issue as dire as nuclear war with north korea. jim mattis quits over cause, over trump's decisions and jarring moves in the middle east. john bolton talked about trump with the taliban at camp david on 9/11. former republican senator bob corker wanted to limit an american president's nuclear capabilities because of trump. he called the west wing either romper room or day care, i forget the adjective. republicans who bore witness to trump's lack of fitness have -- some have come out and talked about that. your warning is different, though. your warning is that a second

term would be worse. explain. >> well, i think that in the first term you had people of good character like john kelly, jim mattis, john bolton, the list goes on, who weren't enabling him. they were pushing back on trump's worst instincts. but we've seen that trump has said that in a second term he wants to wipe out some of these government agencies and install trump loyalists who will carry out every demand of his. that means this will be filled with yes men and women who will not push back on him, and they're going to be sycophants. so that is concerning to me that we would have a government staffed of people like that, not people. good character because -- people of good character because competency and experience would not matter it would be about loyalty to trump. >> one of those people is -- one of those agencies is the intelligence community. and sue gordon was on this program this week. here she is sort of entering territory that i think is uncomfortable for her, the political arena, political choices she's made. here she is talking about

exactly who trump is and the danger that he poses to the intelligence community. >> i think you have to look at what the person is saying they would do. >> one is saying he would lead, continue to lead america as a dreams. the other is saying, quote, i will be a dictator on day one. >> yeah. that's antithetical will to who we are. >> disqualifying? >> antithetical to who we are. >> disqualifying? >> i believe in the american people. >> you believe they should -- will find it disqualifying? >> i believe if they understand who we are the moment we have, the power they possess, and what's at stake, i think they can. >> do you think they should? >> i think they all should make the choice for america. >> sue's voice is so important, and david, she speaks so reluctantly in sort of a political moment. but what she's i think calling on people to do is to connect a couple of dots.

so we'll do that for her. >> yeah. >> what she's saying is that it's disqualifying if you want to be a dictator on day one. and i -- i said this last night, the difference -- and i think sarah helps us understand this in the most direct and clarifying way, but the difference between trump's campaign in '16 and '20, in '16 it was a mystery what kind of president he would be. people i think portfolioishly thought the office would sober him up. the first pbv on his desk would sober him up. people in government did. in '20 his failures were colossal in terms of keeping the country safe or acting like he cared that so many had died during such a deadly pandemic. then of course january 6th where he incited an insurrection, cheered for the insurrectionists, endangered to mike pence, led to people like sarah leaving at the end of that business day. the 2024 candidacy is totally different. >> yes. >> it's totally different. it's american carnage actualized. it's his american carnage

inauguration speech with his hands on all the levers of power, promising, not lying about it, promising to rule as a, quote, dictator on day one. >> the threat is real. and what i'm about to say is referencing patriots in this movement. so i don't mean it as a criticism. but in 2024, to your point, you don't get to go halfway. the next statement is so therefore vote for joe biden. and what was missing in liz cheney's video, what was missing from nikki haley's comments, what was missing from sue's comments is so therefore vote for joe biden. it takes an affirmative coalition to say this is not just a threat, so i'm asking you not to vote for donald trump, but i'm asking you to take action to vote against him and to vote for joe biden. and at some point the pull of patriotism has to be greater than the pull of partisanship. and it is a journey that we approach with grace, and we

should because this is a hard moment for lifelong republicans. and everybody's been through that journey, you have, i have, and others have, as well. but this isn't 2016, as you said. it's not 2020. it's 2024, and we know the threat that is on our doorstep. and you don't get credit for going halfway. i'm sorry. i don't mean to ding these patriots, but you don't get credit for going halfway. >> you don't save the country if you go halfway. you can -- >> yeah, so nikki haley, you don't get to fold back into the camp. you need to say if donald trump's greatest challenge to the country is his fitness and his lack of patriotism, then there's only one choice to, and it's to vote for joe biden. everybody else needs to fall in line with that movement. >> you know, ben rhodes, i should have stipulated this earlier, and i always ask democratic elected officials -- i asked adam schiff can only one political party protect the country from the threat currently posed by russia?

and you know, the answer is sort of i hope so, right? because republicans are rowing in the same direction message-wise at least. but it is an unfair thing to ask the democratic party, right, when it needs to mobilize every -- every last corner of the winning coalitions that president obama assembled twice and that president joe biden assembled once to also bring along the disaffected republicans. but to sort of where we started the future of our democracy depends on it. tell me what the conversation sounds like and what that push and pull is like behind closed doors. >> yeah, no, it's tough because i'll just be blunt about it, nicole, we're in a situation where a lot of americans are upset. they're frustrated. they are frustrated with wars, they're frustrated with the sense that we're spending a lot of money on things like ukraine, never mind that that money is being spent in the united states

to -- to buy the weapons that are given to the ukrainians. they're frustrated with an establishment that they feel like has not served them as well as they wanted to be served. and i think the tricky part for democrats is in defending democracy in some ways you're defending the established order of things. and that opens up the space for trump to be a populist. however, i think there's a way to do this. and you know, it's been done in the past as recently as 2020 and in 2022, which is, look, i think if you look at the issue of russia, for instance, the polls are pretty clear that the american people do not want a president who leads nato, do not want a president who says to russia invade these countries, and frankly, the american people and the majority support the ukrainians. i think it's important, though, that this not just be about a supplemental funding request for ukraine. it's about a values proposition. does the united states stand for certain things at home and around the world? does the united states want to make itself endangered by opening the door to russia for this kind of invasion? and with trump, this isn't

hypothetical anymore. we used to have a conversation, remember, about what does putin want from supporting trump? well, now we see what he's getting. donald trump is literally obstructing assistants to ukraine. if that's not made the quid pro quo clear i don't know what can. it used to be we'd have debates on this program, like does putin think he's going to get sanctions from trump, he's already getting a return from donald trump saying russia, you can have at it, we're going to walk away from the ukrainians and own the door to you. but that's not enough. i think there has to be another argument made. it's not just that donald trump poses a threat to democracy, it's that donald trump only cares about himself. he's not out there to stand up for people even in his own coalition, working class people upset over the cost of living. that's not what he does as president. he looks out for his own interests. wants to get investigations off his back. he wants to stay out of prison. he wants to maybe give another tax cut to his rich friends. this is not a populist looking to do something for other people. this is a populist looking to serve his own interests and harm

other people, dismantle our democracy and make it just about himself. i think you can simultaneously make this argument and sound the alarm bells about america needing to stand for core values and not walk away from its role in the world that americans are rightly proud of. but also that this guy is a phony populist. there is not a guy that wants to stop delivering aid to ukraine because he wants to use that money to solve problems in this country. this is a guy who's doing it on behalf of putin because he thinks it's in his own political interests. you have to make sure we're making the whole argument here. >> sarah, tim snyder who wrote the sort of surprise revenue -- runaway best seller on tyranniar tick lated what ben -- tyranny articulated what ben's talking about. i know what it's like to be on the president's staff and go to events. it's amazing to see people who take the day off work, sometimes take their kids out of school to see an american president.

what tim snyder somebody those people who are saying on the sidelines of trump events that they're fine with the strongman is that the problem with the strongman is he doesn't care about them. do you think trump cares about any of his supporters? >> i don't think that trump cares about any of his supporters. i think he's only ever cared about himself. i think that it's evidenced by the fact that when he lost the 2020 election to joe biden he did everything in his power to try to stay in power. he tried to overturn a free and fair election and then helped incite a mob to attack our u.s. capitol. and it just goes to show that all he cares about is trying to i think prove to people that that he is a winner. i think he can't wrap his mind around the fact that he was weak enough to lose to someone that he purseed as weak as -- perceived as weak as joe biden. all he cares about running in 2024 is he knew he was facing legal troubles and wanted to use the campaign as a shield so he

could say this is being politicized and that's why they're coming after him because he's running for president again. it has nothing to do with helping people and improving their lives. it's everything to do with improving donald trump and protecting himself. >> wow. from someone who saw it up close, that's a powerful indictment. sarah, ben, thank you so much for starting us off. david sticks around for the hour. when we come back, donald trump calling this nation and ultimately anyone who didn't vote for him last night a joke while president joe biden says in america there is a place for everyone in his campaign. we'll look at how the president reaches out to nikki haley's voters when we're joined by one of president biden's campaign co-chairs, cedric richmond. plus, the new york hush-money criminal case in new york is heating up. it's just around the corner. the manhattan da and criminal defendant who's facing 34 felony counts against him are going back and forth in a flurry of filings this week. we'll tell you all about them. it sets the stage for what will

likely -- what we will likely see later this month in the blockbuster case at the heart of where donald trump lived and conducted business for decades. and later in the broadcast, rachel maddow will be here at the table talking to us about the stakes for our country and paying attention over the next eight months. she'll join us on set when we continue after a break. reak starting a business is never easy, but starting it eight months pregnant... that's a different story. with the chase ink card, we got up and running in no time.

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you look at the exits for gop voters tonight who won't guarantee their vote for the nominee, north carolina, 35%. virginia, 36%.

california, 34-- 33%. that's been consistent. there's 30% to 50% of people who don't want donald trump but identify as a republican or are voting in this primary. >> that was on fox news. so almost understated. it is a massive, whopping, flashing, glaring red light for donald trump and republicans. it is a weakness unprecedented in modern primary politics. as nikki haley sunsets her campaign, it is unclear whether her supporters will back the republican party's presumptive nominee, donald trump, in a general election. a spokesperson for the former south carolina governor cautioning this, quote, today in state after state there remains a large block of republican primary voters who are expressing deep concerns about donald trump. that is not the unity our party needs for success. that warning is backed up by the polls. the "associated press" reports this, quote, service conducted among republican primary and caucus-goers in iowa, new hampshire, and south carolina,

between 61% and 76% of haley supporters say they would be so dissatisfied if trump became the gop nominee that they would not vote for him in the november general election. the situation appears unlikely to be helped by donald trump's trademark lack of diplomacy after haley announced she was dropping out of the race. the disgraced four times indicted, twice impeached ex-president posted this on social media -- quote, nikki haley got trounced last night in record-setting fashion. much of her money came from the radical left democrats, all capitalized, as did many of her voters. joining us now, co-chair of the biden/harris 2024 campaign, cedric richmond, david jolly still here with us. cedric, thanks for being here. you know, trump's dislike for nikki haley is rooted in something so trumpian. it's been reported in multiple books and news accounts that he thought her skin was unattractive. and it's why he dispatched her to new york to serve as his ambassador to the united nations. his dislike of her is so

personal that when you look at those numbers, 35, 36, and 38% of voters that won't vote for him, i mean, if they knew his real pique with her, it isn't just that she stayed in and pulled support from him, it's that he doesn't like her appearance. i mean, this is a rift somewhat unique in presidential primary history as we noted. >> well, it's been clear since day one that former president trump won lost election could never deal with that. and two that he's very petty. and what we would say to the nikki haley voters is that there's room for you over here to that third of the republican party who's not sure that they want to vote for donald trump or they don't want to support donald trump, that we have a big tent, and they are welcome here because president biden wakes up every day trying to make this country a better place. and he worries about all

americans. and donald trump only worries about himself. i think that that is what is clearest right now after super tuesday. >> yeah. i mean, sarah mathews, who worked for donald trump, just said the same thing, that donald trump doesn't care about his supporters. tim snyder, who wrote on tyranny, said that a hallmark of strongmen leaders is theydon't care about their followers. how do you convert a lifelong republican who loathes donald trump -- we played some of the sound yesterday. i won't play it again. they called him things like a lunatic, a criminal, someone corrupt who's bankrupted people. these are people who really don't like trump, but how do you make sure you're not wasting time that needs to be spent sort of animating and mobilizing the democratic coalition but also capture these disaffected nikki haley voters? >> well, first of all, all of those descriptions are correct. second, what the president and -- >> lunatic -- >> continue to do -- what the president and vice president will continue to do is wake up

every day working for american people and continuing on their progress, reducing child poverty by 50%, rebuilding the middle class from the bottom up and the middle out. and at the same time, we will remind all americans, republicans also, that the president has created 14 million jobs. another one million manufacturing jobs. and those jobs aren't for democrats, those jobs are for americans. and that he's going to continue to focus on their lives. and so it's not an either or or question. we will remind our democratic voters what's at stake -- abortion -- and the right for women's -- to choose, our democracy and our freedoms. at the same time we will remind those third of republicans what the chaos, confusion, and incompetence of the trump administration looked like four years ago. >> hey, cedric, david jolly. so the nikki haley voter is a embassy bush voter.

a republican who thinks we're going to invest in economic growth by supporting big business and growing the economy through lower taxes, et cetera. the traditional conservative platform. and it is a resistance to donald trump. at the same time we continue to hear that bernie sanders, senator bernie sanders, for instance, has said to joe biden, hey, don't forget about the opportunity to attack big business, to represent main street, to represent the working class, to represent the unions that put joe biden in office. what is the threat if this is a coalition election where you are bringing in the disaffected republicans who want to protect democracy, the haley voter, and the bernie sanders voter, what is that thread -- how does joe biden pull off that hat trick? >> well, he talks about his accomplishments of creating 14 million jobs, many of those jobs are union and labor jobs. and at the same time, he talks about what he ran on four years

ago, and that is protecting the democracy, rebuilding the middle class, and trying to unite this country. and tomorrow night, i think you'll get a chance to see him lay out his vision, but also his specific compliments. when we talk about those haley voters, those are voters who have been crying and dying for infrastructure for the last 20 or 30 years. it took president biden and a bipartisan coalition to deliver that to the american people. the pact act, our veterans. and so part of what we have to do is remind people of all of the accomplishments, many of them bipartisan, but some things the president had to go on his own and do over republican obstruction. and that is student loan debt and protecting women's right to choose, and there's a long list of those things that he had to do over republican obstruction. but at the end of the day, he has been very successful and deserves to be re-elected.

>> you know, i have a quick question for you. this is sort of the former campaign staffer in me. is there outreach, quite outreach to people like liz chainy had who rereleased a video to say the goal to keep donald trump far away, make sure he never gets near the oval office again. for sarah mathews, former trump staffer, for chris christie who ran a campaign about trump's corruption, is there an effort to enlist surrogates who might have credibility in republican circles again so the campaign can stay focused on the parts of the democratic coalition it needs? >> well, remember, we -- we did that the last election. michael steele came out, and we're going to continue to welcome all people into the party. but we're not going to change our hard-core values and our focus on the middle class and lifting people up, protecting their freedoms, and protecting this democracy. so like i said before, i don't think it is a zero-sum game.

we can do both. and we welcome everyone who recognizes the threat that donald trump is to this nation and to our diverse coalition. >> cedric richmond, i know this is sort of a hinge point in the campaign when everyone starts talking about you and covering you like a general election campaign. i know it doesn't change the hours. it's the same day the day before and the day after. thank you for taking time to talk to us, we're grateful. >> thanks for having me. up next, manhattan d.a. alvin bragg firing back at donald trump ahead of their courtroom faceoff later this month after the indicted ex-president moved to try and exclude michael cohen and stormy daniels from testifying. alvin bragg's response to that after a very short break. shortk

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yourself.literally. what i had done meaning the nda and the payment of the $130,000 to stormy daniels' attorney, keith davidson, was done at the direction of and for the benefit of donald j. trump. the checks are the checks. we know a lot. there's recordings which have been released in the past. this is an easy one. >> so that right there is an example of what manhattan district attorney alvin bragg is fighting so hard to be able to present to the injury when his

hush-money trial, case heads to trial later this month. it underscores why the ex-president, first ever to be criminally tried, is working so, so, so hard to kill it. in a new filing, prosecutors for alvin bragg say the court should reject trump's attempt to exclude evidence and arguments about his intent as well as testimony by stormy daniels. and of course by the gentleman you just saw, witness michael cohen. prosecutors say trump's motion to prevent cohen from testifying, quote, reads more like a press release than a legal filing. meanwhile, the ex-president filed yet another motion today as he lashes out at the case that bragg is building of election interference at its heart. his plans to use the infamous "access hollywood" tape as evidence and bragg's request for a gag order to protect witnesses, jurors, and the integrity of the case from trump's inflammatory rhetoric which prosecutors have laid out as well as the death threats that immediately follow from his most extreme supporters.

or trump's alternate reality, what he calls, quote, supposed -- supposed threats and harassment by independent third parties, unquote. joining us, former top official at the justice department and msnbc legal analyst andrew weiss mann is back with us. and back with us at the table, legal correspondent lisa ruben's here, lucky for us david stuck around. take me inside this flurry of filings. >> this reflects inter-- utter nervousness in the president's camp about michael cohen. >> they should be. >> and they should be. and -- >> maybe should have sent him to salutary. you know? >> yes. and they accuse him of being a biased witness with political animus. that's all as andrew can tell you better than anyone, something that they can explore on cross-examination. their efforts to get him out of the case entirely and also to prevent any testimony or evidence about cohen's guilty

plea to federal election crimes belies how deeply afraid they are of cohen as the central witness in this case. they tried to characterize him as a central witness in the new york attorney general's civil fraud case. he actually really wasn't. that was a documents case, and chen was a minor player. in this one he's the big kahuna. and while i think there is going to be more documentary evidence, more backup testimony from people like david pecker, at american media, the folks who own the "national enquirer" about the whole scheme, cohen is undoubtedly a central player leer, and they are freaking out. >> so juries, jurors typically, unless they're lawyers, know about what i know. here's what i know -- michael cohen didn't have sex with the porn star. michael cohen's presidential campaign didn't allege from the alleged sex from the porn star not being in the news.

but michael cohen went to jail. michael chen doesn't benefit unless somebody else is staying quiet. it makes it clear why he's sow dangerous to donald trump, andrew weissmann. >> what you just said is exactly what you're going to hear in the opening and the closing from the experienced prosecutors trying this case who are the same team basically that tried the trump organization case where they got a conviction. i would add to your litany that when the defense says that michael cohen committed perjury by lying to congress, the prosecutor's going to say, yes, who did he do that for? he was lying about the moscow tower not for himself but for the then-president. so it's very easy to sort of set him up as somebody who committed his crimes, but for the defendant who's sitting right in front of them.

i would just like to point out something about the motion to carry on something that lisa said which is there's something sort of very interesting -- the application to preclude michael cohen from testifying is a dead loser, and the defense team which is made up of very good lawyers, susan necklace in particular is an extremely experienced, extremely professional defense lawyer. what's notable to me is she did not sign on to a letter that i thought was really unhinged about michael cohen. it was definitely not a letter that was sent with an audience of the judge as the intended audience. and so i actually did see here as lisa said sort of some -- it smacked of desperation in some ways, but it also suggested to

me a separation as to how the case might be tried in terms of todd blanch versus susan necklace. and then the final thing i'll say is, look, michael cohen, i completely agree with you as to what the government will argue, but it's also important to remember that this state is going to rake him across the coals because one of the things that he has said recently in the judge engoron case is that he committed perjury when he said he was guilty to a federal judge and pleaded guilty. that is going to be definitely -- it's a side show, and that is what the prosecutors will say, but it is a -- it is not an ideal circumstance to put it mildly for the government in presenting the witness. >> i want to press both of you on the larger implications of this trial and suggest -- and again, i had real-time reporting when the "access hollywood" tape

came out about the absolute meltdown at its center inside the trump campaign. they were in debate prep -- i talked about this last night during our coverage. one wanted to flip out and put pence at the top and either get rid of trump -- there's now a legal debate about whether that "access hollywood" tape -- whether this becomes the second trial. the other was the e. jean carroll civil case, whether that tape becomes part of this. we have to sneak in a quick break first. don't go anywhere. rst. don't go anywhere. [paparazzi taking pictures] introducing, ned's plaque psoriasis. ned, ned, who are you wearing? he thinks his flaky red patches are all people see otezla is the #1 prescribed pill to treat plaque psoriasis. ned? otezla can help you get clearer skin, and reduce itching and flaking. with no routine blood tests required. doctors have been prescribing otezla for nearly a decade. otezla is also approved to treat psoriatic arthritis. don't use otezla if you're allergic to it. serious allergic reactions can happen.

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core is not money for sex. we would say it's about con sapphiring to -- conspiring to corrupt a presidential election and lying in new york business records to cover it up. so that's at that's the heart of the case. >> so david jolly, with trump there's always a projection, and with him constantly talking about election interference in these prosecutions, at first i was like, what's he doing? it's always a projection. this case and -- i'll never understand any smart lawyer's articulation of why they never charged trump. this is about a pretty basic campaign finance violation. >> yeah. look, it's a double-edged sword. i know a lot of friends in the democratic movement have said let's make this about election interference in '16 because it's the -- the stormy daniels hush-money case. and that's true, right? you could also say this is just about donald trump being a fraud and engaging in business fraud. i actually have a little bit of a question for lisa and andrew which is this -- as i look at

the jack smith january 6th case, it is clear, let's say there's a world in which donald trump gets convicted, and the january 6th case or the documents case, he goes to appeal, i don't think american voters then know what to do, right? it's still hanging in the balance. maybe he's been convicted or maybe he was acquitted. what is the appeal process in an alvin bragg case where he gets convicted for business fraud or for election interference in 2016 depending on how it lands? >> what is the process or how does that impact voters or both? >> what's the process? like take us through november. what does it look like? what's the calendar look like on appeal? >> well, it's a long appeal because new york state has a longer appeals process. just like it would in the federal system, it would move through an intermediate court before it goes to the highest court, court of appeals. what you can appeal at trial depends on are there errors of law or errors of fact. and as andrew knows well,

blaming the jury here for erroneous fact finding as opposed to poor instruction of law by the judge i think will be a harder sell. >> which i think, what i'm getting to then is in the american voter's mind, donald trump wants to make november about his own absolution. >> retribution. >> yeah. retribution and his -- and absolution. so set aside his power as president and federal cases versus state. there would be no ability for him to impact the ultimate disposition of the state case. but if it is not fully resolved, donald trump will lie to the american people and somehow make it about this process. and so that's where i worry -- you know, when you talk about justice delayed is justice denied. you asked the question, you came back from maternity leave and you still see donald trump escaping. it's almost like the greased pick contest at a county fair. all these prosecutors are trying to catch donald trump, and he keeps getting away.

i don't know that we get to november that feels any different than it feels now. >> he's still a greasy pig. >> he's still a greasy pig. and prosecutors are still trying to get him. and the american people still feel this import of am i voting to absolve donald trump, or am i voting to support the candidate and the president who supports defending democracy and joe biden. i don't know where we are on that. but i don't see the legal process disrupting that. i don't see the legal process disrupting that very pregnant question if you're an american voters. >> well i mean, let me be blunter. i think a lot of voters on the democratic side or the democratic coalition feel like the justice system failed. i think they feel like merrick garland took too took too long o get going. i think they feel maybe alvin bragg is less in focus, but certainly there were two prosecutors that looked at these facts. and i wonder how you feel about that, having been part of a bulk

of your career. >> first to david's point you have to remember short of there being an actual acquittal, donald trump is going to say no matter what even if there was an initial appeal he's going to say the jury got it wrong, the judge in sentencing got it wrong, the appellate judges got it wrong. no matter what in the same way remember the trump organization has been criminally convict pd. there's been a fraud finding in a civil case that just happened. there's been sexual assault and defamation that's been found. and all of that the response by donald trump is to undermine one of the bulwarks of the rule of law which is the legal system. the way in which we resolve things, i mean this is straight out of steve bannon i just want to have complete chaos and have everything come tumbling down.

and so of course there will be not be a finished appeal on any of these cases before the election, but i don't think even if there were, that would matter. or i think the only thing he would latch onto is an acquittal in the same way he doesn't claim election fraud when he wins, but of course he does when he loses. and then to -- to nicolle's point, a failing of our justice system is both timeliness and at times it's hard to say it but partisanship. it's very hard to view what is happening in the judge cannon case in florida or the schedule that the supreme court has chosen for the immunity case, which is lackadaisical at best as being anything other than partisanship. and that already -- i mean it's not that we are seeing potential

undermining of the rule of law. we are living it. we are sort of sludging towards that in front of our eyes but not really seeing that that is the world we are currently in. >> yeah, to that point judge david carter was the first federal judge to say trump likely committed crimes, felonies. and that was years ago before the good and public work of the congressional probe. andrew weissmann, lisa rubin, david jolly, thank you so much for spending time with us this hour. up next for us a controversial florida law pushed by ron desantis -- remember him -- slapped down by the federal appeals court. that story next. n by the federal appeals court. that story next. when i wanted to see results fast, rinvoq delivered rapid symptom relief and helped leave bathroom urgency behind. check. when uc tried to slow me down... i got lasting, steroid-free remission with rinvoq. check. and when uc caused damage rinvoq came through by visibly repairing my colon lining. check. rapid symptom relief...

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either way, the merits of these views will be decided in the marketplace of ideas rather than a code book or a courtroom. wow. up next for us rachel maddow will be here. a lot to unpack with her. the next hour of deadline white house starts after a very short break. r of deadline white house starts after a very short break. hi, i'm sally. i'm from phoenix, arizona. i'm a flight nurse on a helicopter that specializes in trauma. i've been doing flight nursing for 24 years. as you get older, your brain slows down and i had a fear that i wouldn't be able to keep up. i heard about prevagen from a friend.

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it is disgraceful that a great political party much less abraham lincoln's party, a party of liberty and union, should be reduced to a cultive authoritarian personality in league with autocrats and kleptocrats and dictators all over the world. the republicans break but they can't bend. in other words, there's no ability to accommodate other views because everybody has to follow donald trump like a monarch. that's what the election is going to be about. democracy and freedom versus dictatorship and authoritarianism. >> hi, again, everyone.

it's now 5:00 in new york. with the 2024 presidential contest largely set we know which two individuals will face-off against one another, but they represent more than just two different guys from two different parties. they are two different sets of values and morals, two polar opposite views of governing, two totally opposite definitions of how they see america today and america's future, putting this existential question now before us, the american voters. do we want to remain a democracy, or do we want to take this hard turn into an autocracy? and making that mean something, right, in a way that was very reminisce want of his infamous american carnage inauguration speech, donald trump last night celebrated his big wins, his decisive wins on super tuesday by attacking the country that delivered them, attacking the people who live in the country he ostensibly seeks to lead. he called the united states a,

quote, third world country pointing specifically at our borders and taking direct aim at our democracy, at our elections. it goes along with other autocratic leaning remarks he has made in recent weeks and months such as ones that echo hitler, his public broadcasting that he wants to be a dictator on day one, that that is his stated plan. and his continued spreading of the big lie. all with practically no push back from the leaders of the party, the republican party. today we saw a republican party that is fully rolled over into this slide towards autocracy. every member of senate gop leadership including mitch mcconnell who essentially referred trump criminally for his conduct on january 6th has as of just this morning officially endorsed the ex-president. republicans have turned their backs on democratic allies in ukraine and other parts of the world. they're waging a war that they know is hugely unpopular against

women's reproductive rights. last night republican voters in north carolina chose a candidate for governor who has a history of saying such insane things, derogatory comments about women and others in 2021 he called the lgbtq community filth. he once boasted about having an ar-15, which he said he intended to use against the government if it, quote, gets too big for its breeches, end quote. this is happening while president biden has been clear-eyed about the nation's soul since his first message in the first campaign. a little reminder what he said during that speech. >> all out war is what trump wants. that's why doesn't understand the most fundamental truth about this country. unlike other nations on earth, america is not built on ethnicity, religion, geography. we're the only nation in the history of the world built on an

idea, not hyperbole, built on an idea. we hold these truths to be self-evident that all men and women are created equally. we have a long way to go, but we've never walked away from the idea. >> so we start the hour, with my dear friend, host of the rachel maddow show, author of "prequel," the american fight against fascism. >> thanks for having me here. did you get any sleep? >> i did. mayhem, but i did sleep. >> dog and the cone and the baby. are they interacting at all? >> oddly everybody -- everybody mixes it up. >> everybody's cool with it. if there's enough ambient weirdness nothing is too weird. >> correct. and the mess becomes -- you'll have to come over. you'll love it.

>> can't wait. >> one of my favorite conversations you had last night we were talking about sort of the things that were still in the dna of the two parties, that the republicans fall in line and the democrats sort of wait to fall -- i think they largely love joe biden and what he's done, but they want to be more madly in love with someone or something. and it was on display last night. he's losing like 35 to 55% of the primary voters. biden wins 98% and like 5% uncommitted, and drms are still wringing their hands i don't know will newsom get in? it is bonkers. can you make sense of that for me? >> i mean there's two different things going on in the two different parties. the democrats are renominating an incumbent president who's been a very successful president. not the world's most popular

president but successful, lots of bipartisan legislation, all the stuff he wanted to get done, he's gotten done. we've got this best in class economic recovery post-covid of all the big countries in the world. everything he's setout to do, he's done. joe biden got in there saying, listen, i'm going to be the president for everybody and expect all my big legislative stuff to be bipartisan, and that's exactly what he's done. so the democratic party is like marching down the middle lane of normalville, right? the republican party is engaged in a different project. and there's a reason that nobody on the republican party cares that the republican controlled congress isn't making any policy, say. there's a reason nobody knows what donald trump's policy is on gaza, say. there's a reason nobody in the republican party is contesting what's going on with joe biden because they have a different idea what we should be doing on infrastructure. there's just no governing talk happening at all in the republican party.

it's instead about this idea that america is a disaster. america's in decline, america's being laughed at, america is humiliated, and there must be extreme measures taken to fundamentally change the course of the country or we're all going to die. those are just two different things. and what that latter thing is, the reason you've been doing these series on autocracy it's not the project of a governing party, a project of a party trying to get rid of a form of a government that we have and install something else. >> but where i lose the plot is that -- is that the republicans are the -- to the degree the country's in any decline, it is the threat of a second trump term. i had the former prime minister on and i said will we still be part of the intelligence sharing? i he said i don't know. america becoming a threat which is a threat to the world order if trump is re-elected is known known to quote donald rumsfeld.

i don't know if former defense secretary mattis or mark milley will come out and say those things, but everyone in the national security establishment who worked in and was around the trump term will tell you that. and what they would say privately and publicly is america could survive one trump term, it won't survive a second. that is a fact of the view of those who were tasked with protecting our national security during his presidency before and probably some are still in those agencies. and yet mitch mcconnell who has success -- if i have access to that information, mitch mcconnell does, too, endorsed trump today. >> because the republican party is engaged in a group decision that they are trying to change what the united states is. right? i mean, if you want to support the idea of america as a democracy, we are a multiracial plurristic society with lots of different kinds of people and economic freedom, and all of the

other civil society things that support us being a big complex society, it's really hard to have for centuries a pluralistic democracy. there are very few of these in the history of the world. and if you don't want that, if you don't want everybody to have a say, for us to decide what we're going to do based on democratically held free and fair elections, then you have a party here. i mean when trump used violence and fraud and intimidation to try to throw out election results and stay in power anyway, the response of the republican party was not to be horrified. for the most part the response of the elected and leading republican party was to figure out how they could help thim get away with it. mcconnell when he orchestrated the acquittal of trump in the senate so trump would not be banned from ever holding federal office again because he said the courts will take care of it.

and all the juls ss he orchestrated getting onto the court said, no, we're not going to take care of it. >> and we're going to make sure no court can take it. >> the courts will not save us here. the only thing that will save us here is if what i believe is the pro-democracy super majority in this country decides we're not only going to stand up for democracy in the abstract by saying nice things about it, we're going to use our democracy to stop this iteration of the republican party to get rid of it. the republicans sort have to not be counted onto do this themselves. there was a primary that didn't work to oust donald trump. we saw republicans on the courts who have lifetime tenure and therefore protected from the kinds of blow back that other politicians might be worried about nevertheless get in line behind their partisan patrons. the republican party will not

save us here. we cannot wait for the republican party to wake up. nothing is going to happen inside the republican party other than efforts to get donald trump what he wants, which is to get rid of our form of government. the only way the country gets saved is if republicans are blocked by the democratic process because democrats win instead. that's the only thing left to us. >> what is it like -- i mean i always try to get an answer to this question because it sort of -- i'm burning with curiosity about it, but what is it like for lifelong progressive tuesday have to hold space for republicans to be in their coalition if all they have in common is a love for our democracy? >> yeah. i mean, listen, i have always felt like -- you know, i'm a liberal and as liberal as they come and always have been. but i've always felt like i had more in common with people who care about what happens to the country than people who don't care, who are checked out, who don't think it matters.

even if you have radically different ideas. >> and thinking you're going to be liz cheney as you're talking and we can fight about stuff later. >> there's nothing in which i agree with on liz cheney. if we both fish, i hate the way she fishes. not exactly. it's absolutely everything. but if you care about the future of our country, that is grounds for us to work together. i do think we have to recognize after super tuesday last night, after mitch mcconnell today, now with nikki haley out of the race, and now with the republican appointees on the courts doing what they have done at the highest court in the land, i really think we need to get clear about the fact the project of the republican party is to install a strong man form of government in the united states and get rid of democracy. and that is the project of electing donald trump. and that's what the republican party is for now. and so if you have been part of the republican party, you have to recognize that that's now the new project of your party, and you may not need to leave that party now in order to work with

the rest of americans who disagree with you on a lot of different things but want our country to stay a democracy. and we're just in that extreme a place. >> and how do you unbraid how tongue-tied democrats get trying to communicate that? they want to bring their wait papers and solve all the policy -- >> you just say it. i mean you just do your best. nicolle, i feel like one of the things that is -- that we keep coming back to, and i so appreciate you being able to talk about the deep dark stuff. >> all i want to talk about is the breaking news and wait a minute i just got two hours. but super tuesday i'm like all right, fine. it's the best. >> listen, i feel like the reason i've been spending the last year and a half just reading history all the time is because what we've learned from history there is no magic

bullet. the courts don't save you, no individual institution saves you, all that stuff. what people count on, what matters is for us to keep making the case. explain how authoritarianism works. explain why strong man appeals sound great but aren't a great idea. explain what happens when democracies that used to be democracies gave that away and were never able to get it back. just keep talking about what we know is true, and i believe in the american people that we are capable of learning, we are capable of reassessing what we thought we knew, and i believe we're capable of repentance and redemption. i do. and there's no other shortcut around it. >> i mean this idea of -- two ideas, and then i want to deal with some of the history that you tell and that i sort of grab onto. i mean you're open with poland was something that tim snider referenced yesterday. i said was there any example of a country getting this close in polling? and you grab onto them because

they give you a bit of hope. sarah matthews today, former trump communications director, i put back to her something tim snyder said yesterday that strong men don't care about their supporters but they need a supporter to care about a strang man. you see it coming into shape it feels so daunting, and i know you deal in your book with another horrific, heinous captor where they counted on americans not valuing or caring about their democracy. can we talk about that? >> yes, absolutely. so in the lead up to world war ii the justice department put a bunch of americans on trial for sedition, and it was a tricky charge. sedition is always really hard to prove. and these were people that were doing some things obviously illegal. they were trying to induce people to mutiny in the armed forces, trying to get people not to register for selective service. you can't do that in wartime,

that's pretty clear. they were also doing things like spreading conspiracy theories and being really, really violently anti-semitic, advocating for violence against people in the united states but also denigrating the democracy, saying that elections were a fraud. and what the justice department did is they decided to charge that as a conspiracy with germany. and they brought over from germany a man who had been a close confidante of adolph hitler's, when who had taken close notes when hitler in 1893 was talking about his designs on america. and hitler described to his confidante there were so many fissures and splits in the american polity, in the american public that if you exploited those just the right way, you could you could get americans to give up their democracy and be ready for a fascist take over. >> haunting. >> that's what hitler himself explained he plan today do to the united states. and so the justice department at

the end of its case, this big crazy, sprawling, ultimately unsuccessful sedition trial in 1944, what they brought was this german guy to the stand to explain how this was part of the hitler conspiracy for americans getting rid of their democracy. and that was the second to last witness called before the judge died in the case and there was a mistrial and all those people got away. but what they brought into that courtroom and that evidence, and indeed the book's written by the confidante, you can still read his stuff today, it's just -- this stuff doesn't change. it's the same play book over and over. you want people to get rid of their democracy, you turn them against each other, make them feel we're in decline, it's a disaster, we need extreme measures, and you can't let the evil people around us cause all these problems and have a say in what happened. we need a strong man to save us. it's the same message over and over again for the decades and now the generations. and i think the more we

understand it's a tactic, it's a plan, and it's designed to make you give up your vote so that the strong man never has to pay attention to you again, i believe americans will choose against it. >> i believe and hope that a majority will, but what do you think explains -- i mean vaughn hilliard is doing such extraordinary reporting, and he's having these really revealing conversations with people who say, you know, yeah, i want a strong man. i think sometimes you need one. >> i want a king. . people say i want it to be donald trump and then i want it to be donald jr. we want a monarchy. >> yeah, that's what they say they want. what do you do about -- you know, adam kinzinger was tweeting about trump's speech and said he'll be gone in a year. what do you do with all the people conditioned to have an appetite and hunger for a strong man? >> i think what vaughn is doing is helpful. like getting people on the

record saying, yeah, i want us to have a dictator, i want us to have a king, i think that's what we need can be a wake up call to -- >> the rest of the coalition. >> who are hearing those arguments and realizing, oh, that's what it's designed to make us say, make us want, that's what it's designed to make us give up can be a shock to the system that may wake some people up. but i also think again you explain how these things work. i will recommend a book for your viewers who want to think more about this and maybe want to have a book club, talk to people you know about this. there's a book by robert paxton called "anatomy of fascism" where he explains you talk about your country in decline, say there are enemies not like us, scheming against us and they're not all-powerful, and if we just go after them, then we will be returned to greatness. but it's going to take extreme measures and so we're going to need a rule breaker in there. it's just the same message over and over again. i feel if we learn it's a trick,

we won't fall for it. the first time you see somebody with three shells on the corner trying to say follow the thing, i'll tell you where it is, you might think that's a game you can win. when you learn that's a con, you don't play. and that's, i think, what where -- where my hope lies in what we can accomplish in the next seven, eight months. >> are you optimistic? >> you have to be. a lot of work has to happen between now and then. i really feel like the thing that needs to be clear -- that needs to be clear for everybody as of today is republican party will not fix this. the only way to fix this threat right now is for republicans to lose. and the only way for that to happen is for democrats to win, and you do not have to like democrats to recognize the truth of that. >> i'm not going trying to trick you, but can i ask you one more question about last night? we will come back. when we come back there's stunning video that just surfaced about the republican who won last night the

nomination for governor in the key, key state of north carolina. we'll show you what mark robinson said about women and the right to vote. plus alarming new reporting how trump's allies posing as investigators are ramping up their efforts to purge voters from the rolls. the reporter who broke that story will be urguest along with our friend top voting rights attorney mark elias. and the lifelong republican who voted for donald trump not once but twice changed his mind about the ex-president after reading liz cheney's book about the efforts to overturn the election he lost. now that trump is the presumptive nominee for president the question he's asking, him, this is his words, why isn't he in jail? we'll have that conversation and what never trumpers do later in the hour. deadline white house continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. i hear that. this bad boy can fix anything. yep, tough day at work, nice cruise will sort you right out. when i'm riding, i'm not even thinking about my painful cavity. well, you shouldn't ignore that.

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it was bound to happen. there's newly surfaced video published by the huffington post that shows yet another dangerous and derogatory comment from north carolina's republican gubernatorial nominee mark robinson. from the huff post reporting on this, quote, i absolutely want to go back to the america where women could not vote, robinson said, in a newly resurfaced video of his remarks in a march 2020 event hosted by the republican women of pitt county. robinson said he would definitely return to the days in america where women were denied the right to vote, quote, because in those days we had people who fought for real social change and they were called republicans, end quote. nbc news has not independently verified this reporting.

rachel is still with us. rachel, you enjoy -- there's a sandra bulk movie called "while you were sleeping" and she's got a fiance who gets hit by a train or something and he's asleep and misses all this stuff. that's how i feel about politics. >> am i sandra bulk in this? >> no, i think i'm the guy that was in a coma. i missed all the -- >> oh, great. >> mark robinson, my god, i had steam coming out of my ears learning about him and watching him prevail in the republican primary. there's the republican project which is undeniable, and then there's the republican extremists, and many of them offer both, right? they check both boxes. this may be one of those. >> well, the interesting thing here is that we've had a couple of election cycles in the trump era of the republican party where he's picked his favorites, he's picked kari lake or herschel walker or blake masters who said one of his favorite

thinkers was the unabomber. he's picked these people. with the exception of a few that got through like jd vance, who's just as out there as those guys, mostly the republican party paid for letting donald trump do their candidate selection process. but they didn't learn anything from that at all. they're just continuing to go with it including trump himself. so when it comes to the republicans picking trump's candidates, we have plenty of track record of him picking people unelectable in. a state as closely divided as north carolina i think mark robinson is a disaster. i think he's -- you know, his comments about wanting women not to vote and his comments about lgbtq people being filth and his comments about the holocaust being hogwash and all this stuff, sort of on the range between amazing and dangerous. but i think north carolina is a sane state and probably will not want to pick him as their governor. the real question with robinson

is whether he is so toxic and such a bad choice that it helps put north carolina back in the democrat's reach for the presidential. >> the other thing about north carolina, it's another state that has rejected the republican position on abortion. i mean when we talk about apportion, we're now looking at kansas. i mean the people rejecting the republican position and the trump court's rulings on abortion are not blue states. they are deep, deep red states. and i wonder if you almost take everything else away and you just look at what republicans have ushered in, the era of ivf, that whole thing is in jeopardy now because of trump's appointees to the supreme court and their ruling on dobbs. >> because of the republican party. right, if you don't want their efforts to bear children through ivf to be banned to you, to be closed off to you even in the middle of the process by your government that's decided you

shouldn't be allowed, then vote republicans out of office. i mean it's just that simple. there was reporting from the hill last week that donald trump was mulling whether our national abortion ban was going to be 15 weeks or 16 weeks. >> he's looking for a number he likes. >> 15 weeks sounds round but 15 also has a five and that's a nice number. if you like the idea your fundal rights, some of the most fundamental decisions you'll ever make in your life with massive relational consequences, intergenerational consequences for your family, huge economic consequences, the basic freedoms of your life should be decided by donald trump deciding which number he thinks looks prettier when it's embroidered on a hat, then elect the republican party. but if you don't like that idea, then make sure republicans are voted out everywhere. every single state that has voted on abortion bans since the trump appointed justices allowed the supreme court to overturn roe v. wade, every single state including the deepest red states

have not only voted abortion bans down, they have lost hand over fist, they lost by huge numbers. there isn't a single state in the country where people in a free and fair election on a clear question would rote for an abortion ban, but republicans were insisting on it everywhere they've earned power, so if you don't like the idea of an abortion ban or ivf bans then vote republicans out of power otherwise that's what you're going to be stuck with. >> it's amazing. it's amazing to get to talk to you. >> i haven't even slept. i'm still going. it's basically early morning for me at this point. >> the book is called prequel, the american fight against fascism. thank you so much. we'll see you tonight, right? >> i'll see you in like five minutes. >> i have the m&ms. thank you. i don't know if you saw that. there'll be special coverage with rachel and chris hays and alex wagoner for the matchup now

set. it kicks off tonight at 8:00 p.m. eastern. when we come back how trump allies are stepping up their assault on the right to vote just in time for the general election. we'll bring you that story next. n we'll bring you that story next. -ugh. -here, i'll take that. woo hoo! ensure max protein, 30 grams protein, 1 gram sugar, 25 vitamins and minerals. and a new fiber blend with a prebiotic. (♪♪)

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we say it again and again on this show that a democracy is only as strong as a person's about to participate in it. there are, therefore, a few efforts if anymore vital to the health and safety of our union than preserving and protecting the right to vote in it.

make no mistake, that right is under threat as we speak eight months ahead of the general election. "the new york times" this week shining a new light on a quiet scheme undertaken by a network of right-wing activists and allies of donald trump. under the guise of election investigators these groups have pressured local officials in nevada and michigan and georgia to drop voters from the rolls en masse. and wouldn't you know it they have at times targeted democratic areas, relying on new data programs and novel legal theories to justify their push. from from that times reporting quote, in one michigan town for more than 100 voters were removed after activist lobbied officials citing an obscure state law from the 1950s. in the detroit suburb a clerk removed more than 1,000 people from the rolls in response to a similar request. the ousted voters included an active duty air force officer who was wrongly removed and

later reinstated. joining our coverage a "new york times" reporter and a voting rights attorney and former of a site mark elias is here. on this beat of yours the republican project as rachel just articulated it is anti-democratic, and that's all out in the open now. but this effort to under the guise of election integrity, do anti-democratic things, in this instance taking away the right to vote of an active duty military individual, is something they've been hard at work at for four years. >> yeah, exactly. and so much of it goes back to the immediate aftermath of the 2020 election when former president trump was out there saying i didn't lose, it was rigged and pulling up all these conspiracy theories. now, those conspiracy theories are persistent. we still see some of these activists saying the voter rolls are dirty and that's how

democrats cheat. how the illinois democrats win is how they cheat. it's this kind of fervent belief in this relatively nonexistent voter fraud. it's extremely, extremely rare, in the double digits maybe or triple in the worst case. that has kind of kept the motivation going. as we've head into this next election cycle, we've seen them adapt and advance. as we've reported they've uncovered the state tach yuts in michigan, for example. this is law in 1954 hasn't been utilized that much. now there's activists who see it on the books, and it says that if a single elector attests through affidavit that another single elector has moved or changed or no longer eligible to vote in their precinct, they have a 30-day count down. if they don't respond to a postcard, they should be removed from the rolls. these activists found it on the books so they're telling the clerks you need to follow state law, and it's created this

conflict. it's this belief in these conspiracy theories and the fact there are sometimes voters who -- voter rolls haven't been updated. that's really motivated this and it's kept it going. >> mark, to his point bill barr testified to the fact there was no fraud. there was no fraud that would have changed the outcome of the election. up and down the chain of command of trump's own campaign they walked into donald trump on election night and told him that. and/or but, however you want to put these two things together, they're targeting -- they're not trying to create voter rolls that catch the one person that may have moved -- switched neighborhoods in a michigan suburb. they are trying to stack the election and create a predicate for claiming fraud again. how do you protect against that? >> look, let's be clear, the republicans have a pln to make it harder to vote and easier to cheat. right, we talk a lot about the

harder to vote part, this is the easier to cheat part. it you go back to the runoff election in the georgia senate following the 2020 election, republicans and their allies challenged the voter eligibility of 364,000 citizens to vote. the largest mass challenge since the passage of the voting rights act. since then georgia -- my team sued, we won. since then georgia has changed their law to make it easier to challenge and harder to defeat challenges. we are bringing litigation everywhere we can to deal with these voters -- these election integrity ridiculous challenges along with the other election vigilantlies. i found a clip and posted on twitter just an hour ago of you and i talking about election vigilanteeism. everyone needs to pay attention. this is not a one off. this is concerted strategy to

disenfranchise black, brown, and other voters and democrats because they know they can't win the election fair and square. >> i say this with admiration for your efforts, but it feels like they're the ones aggressively trying to disenfranchise voters, and the efforts to protect against it is whack-a-mole. how do you even that out so the efforts to protect the right to vote are defeating their efforts? >> look, one of the things is and i'll say it right here again michigan is a democratic trifecta. you want to appeal any law that allows democratic challenges. every state in the country that democrats control should appeal laws allowing private voter challenge. there is no reason in 2024 why a random citizen ought to be able to challenge and disenfranchise a voter who they do not know and who they've never met. and so a lot of states can cleanup laws like that, and it would go part of the way, but, nicolle, look, you're right.

we have a political party and a republican party that has based its entire campaign strategy on disenfranchisement. and many days i wake up thinking i'm just playing wack amole and right now my team is 55 cases in 19 states, and it does feel like wack amole. hopefully we'll get federal legislation after president biden is re-elected and we have democratic control of the house and senate. >> i have a fuel more stuffed animals by winningaic whack-a-mole. it is possible to come out on top in that game, in that tortured metaphor. there are also noted characters in the anti-democratic experiment on the right. >> so much of what we've seen has been exactly that. it's been these characters who followed since the 2020 election. he was on the phone with former president trump as he was seeking to subvert the election results in georgia. it's also loosely connected. it's kind of this umbrella situation, and then other aspects in different states will start to work directly with her

but then setup their own organizations. it's this loosely constructed network of activists that still meet on zoom calls, they have some rallies, they work with state parties sometimes. the michigan republican party for example has met with allies, and also separate from mike lindell, am my pillow ceo -- >> oh, my gosh, he's still around, kicking around? >> he's still -- you know, because he's anti-machines but he also has ties to a lot of technologists. he's been working with some people to build software to make challenges easier. so some of his people in michigan, in georgia to build new pieces of software to kind of keep this going. you're right, it is a lot of the same people that we've seen, but then this ground swell of activists, these grass roots volunteers they're growing, and there are new people coming in every month, every week. so it's this kind of national umbrella that's bringing together a lot of activists at the ground level, and it's

continuing to expand, you know, as we head into the presidential. >> i love doing this on live tv. this is so hard to say, no, i won't do that, nicolle, on live tv. but can we do this every wednesday whether there's enough for you to file or not or whether there's an inflection point in one of your lawsuits or not? it just feels like keeping an eye on what they're doing and reminding everyone that there was no fraud. i remember republicans calling me and saying what kind of voter election integrity law could you be not critical of, nicolle. and i said, one, why do you care what i say? and two, none, because there was no fraud. this is the big -- this is the metastasizing of the big lie in state by state, county by county, neighbors spying on neighbor efforts to disenfranchise and intimidate. we don't talk about how many people are disenfranchised from the intimidation alone. you'll get arrested. could we have this conversation every wednesday? are you guys up for that?

>> i'll see you next wednesday. >> thank you for spending some time with us. when we come back we'll be joined by a lifelong republican who voted not once but twice for donald trump but changed his mind about donald trump for a third time after reading liz cheney's book about donald trump's efforts to overturn the 2020 election. he's asking a simple question now that trump is the presumptive nominee of the republican party. why isn't he behind bars already? we'll have that conversation after a very short break. stay with us. after a very short break stay with us and - ahoy! it's the explorer! each helping to protect their money with chase. woah, a lost card isn't keeping this thrill seeker down. lost her card, not the vibe. the soul searcher, is finding his identity, and helping to protect it. hey! oh yeah, the explorer! she's looking to dive deeper... all while chase looks out for her. because these friends have chase. alerts that help check. tools that help protect. one bank that puts you in control. chase. make more of what's yours. ♪ ♪

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trump was warned repeatedly that his plans for january 6th were illegal. he didn't care, and today he celebrates those who attacked our capitol. donald trump has proven he is unfit for office. donald trump is a risk america can never take again. >> for anyone who thinks that warnings like those from liz cheney are efforts to hold the ex-president accountable through the january 6th committee and investigations in the justice department happened in an echo chamber with no capacity to reach any republican voters, there are signs that's not the case. there are signs those efforts might just be breaking through. take this from long-time oklahoma republican voter gym young who wrote this week that while he voted for trump twice, he no longer supports the ex-president thanks to the work of liz cheney and the u.s. justice department. young writes this, quote, after reading liz cheney's book, the

committee findings, and the doj indictment, i do not understand how donald trump can possibly be considered as a legitimate candidate for the most important job in the world. frankly, i don't understand how he is not in jail right now. i will go no further than to implore you before you cast a vote or support donald trump, please take the time to read liz cheney's book or the committee findings or the doj indictment. joining us now the aforementioned jim young. you caught our attention with this, and i want to thank you for being here to talk with us about it. >> thank you, nicolle. glad to be here. first of all, i'd like to -- the message belonged to rachel maddow. i'd like to like to tell her th hate the way she efficiency, but i would defend to the death her right to fish. >> i like that. i'll stay out of fishing debate.

let me ask you how you came to read liz cheney's book? how did you come upon her book? >> i just saw it on apple books. i thought it was time for me to get into the details, as i said in my editorial. i really sort of stuck my head in the sand, frankly, tried not to pay attention, tried to wish it away, i suppose. i had already written donald trump off right after the january 6th debacle. i had made up my mind, but liz's book was so well written, so detailed, well documented. i was just really impressed with it. it reconfirmed my thinking on the subject.

really, this editorial was designed more as a tribute to liz cheney more than anything. i told my good friend jim scherric about the book and how impressed i was with her honesty and willingness to give up her position in congress to get to the truth, and frankly i was hoping to figure out a way to get in touch with her directly and just ask if there was anything i could do to help. my friend encouraged me to just write an editorial. i'm shocked it ended up in your office. >> liz cheney said this this morning, now that the contours of the general election are coming into view -- the gop has chosen a man nominated who attempted to overthrow. we have eight months to safe our republic and ensure donald trump

is never in the oval office again. do you agree with her next mission? >> it's to make sure that donald trump is never anywhere near the oval office again. are you going to help her do that shall. i guess i don't understand what that means in terms of how she plans to do that. i do agree with it, yes. >> well, what then -- the spitball here, what would you do to make sure that never happens again? >> you know, i really don't know. i'm sitting out here feeling fairly irrelevant today. we had 300,000 republican voters in oklahoma last night, yesterday, in our primary, only 16% voted for nikki haley, and 82% voted for donald trump. so i'm not sure. i would be willing to help in any way i could, actually. >> do you think -- i guess what

i said to understand is the curiosity ed to read liz's book and the indictment. i've read all of these things to cover these things and read the committee findings. do you think if more republicans read those original source documents, they would arrive -- is part of the problem is that everyone is hunkered down in their echo chambers and not reading the material you read? >> well, i don't know. i can't speak to everyone else. i did suspect and sort of a secondary reason for me to sort of go on the record here, i guess, is that maybe a lot of other people are in the same shoes that i have been over the last two, three years, and maybe some encouragement to actually get into the details, and really understand what trump's role was starting with the day after the election in november of 2020, and right up until january 6th,

the riot, and all of his actions, everything he did are very incredibly frustrating, troubling, scary, all of those adjectives, i suppose. >> is your mind open in the next eight months in terms of what -- if liz tenth continues to have a conversation with people exactly like you, like other republicans that may have supported george bush and her father, and supported her, if she tries to bring along people like yourself in how to make sure donald trump never gets close to the oval office again, will you be listening and part of an ongoing conversation between now and november? >> i would be, yet. >> and will you listen to the argument on how to stop him at the ballot box as well? >> i suppose. i don't know exactly what that

would entail. >> if it entailed joe biden, would you listen to the argument? >> say that again. >> would you listen to an argument that the only way to do what liz says we have to do is to keep -- if she articulates the message is the only way to do that is vote for his opponent, would you listen to that argument? >> i would listen to it. it would be a tough thing to swallow. >> i know. listen, i -- i just want to say to you, i worked for george bush and john mccain. i know what it's like to feel irrelevant and stand out from your party and your people. i think you're brave to do it. i admire you, and i appreciate you for coming on here. i know where you stand today. i hope we can keep an open line and continue to talk to each other over the next eight months. >> sure, it would be my pleasure. >> thank you for what you wrote and for spending time talking to

us about it. >> thank you, nicolle. a quick break for us. we'll be right back. nicolle. a quick break for us we'll be right back. (♪♪) we come from a long line of cowboys. (♪♪) when i see all of us out here on this ranch, i see how far our legacy can go. (♪♪) ♪ you need t-mobile... ♪ ♪ home internet with 5g. ♪ wait! t-mobile has home internet? ♪ what a feeling! ♪ ♪ to have t-mobile now! ♪

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thank you so much for letting us into your homes during they truly extraordinary times. we are so grateful. "the beat" with ari melber starts now. i loved sitting next to you last night for a few hours. i had all my snacks there. >> you said to talk about the snacks there? is that too personal? >> i don't have to tell -- i started healthy and went downhill fast. >> this app