bob moses told me one time, he said -- and god rest his soul, he said, you know, we came to realize, and he was talking about the mississippi freedom democratic party at this point. that when elections are the object of your struggle, you have built in demobilization. because if you win, you demobilize. and if you lose, you end up disheartened and demobilized. khalil: wow. prof. glaude: right? khalil: yes. please. i want to hear more, yes. prof. glaude: so part of what we have to understand is that elections are important, but they're not the end game. khalil: uh-huh. prof. glaude: we have to become particular kinds of people. and how we struggle, right, is in effect part of that work it seems to me. process matters as much as ends. if you don't, then you're going to end up with tyrants who claim to be revolutionaries. it has to be democratic all the way down it seems to me. and that's the lesson i've learned from her. and again, it's about not just simply ends but about who do we take ourselves to be as human beings? how do we manifest the relationship with each other in our struggl