tv Newsnight BBC News May 30, 2018 11:15pm-12:01am BST
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that's not the kind of deal that donald trump is looking for, not even close, and the fear about a singapore summit is that it could be all sizzle and no steak. nick bryant, bbc news, washington. now it's time for newsnight with evan davies. date... and alive. not magic, but in modern day deception. we know that in waranything modern day deception. we know that in war anything goes and ukraine feels at war with russia. it was a security operation to foil a murder plot but it came at a cost. security operation to foil a murder plot but it came at a costli security operation to foil a murder plot but it came at a cost. i was like... a bombshell. i was dumbfounded, i can really think. the deputy prime minister of ukraine will explain why they did it and we debate whether it was really the best way to uncover a plot. also tonight, we look at some of the windrush cases one month on from the new home secretary promising to sort
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things out. do you think the government has helped you? no. the government hasn't helped you at all? no. and you may have no sympathy for the fighters of is but we look at the fate of their families and the wives and children who have vanished without trace. hello. we knew we lived in weird times, with disinformation weaponised to disorient enemies. but the craziness reached a new level today, with the exiled russian journalist arkady babchenko apparently dead for 19 hours and a0 minutes, only for him then to pop up alive and well at a press conference. the assassination was just a cunning plan from the ukrainian security
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forces, designed to flush out real plotters. the ukrainians seemed pretty happy with it — babchenko's alive, a man has been apprehended and, they say, a plot to kill up to 29 other people has been thwarted. but at a cost. the sting ended up proving the russians don't always lie — they were speaking the truth when they said they hadn't done it. so it's a propaganda victory for them and indeed, for anyone with a batty theory about anything. but as i say, babchenko is alive, and it remains true that a suspiciously large number of russian journalists have been killed. mark urban has been looking at the curious developments of the last 27 hours. when his death was announced yesterday there was an outpouring of emotion. people live tributes near the home of babchenko in kiev, as became clear when the victim
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turned up this afternoon looking very relieved. when his death was announced yesterday there was an outpouring of emotion. people left tributes near the home of babchenko in kiev, as became clear when the victim turned up this afternoon looking very relieved. others took to social media. now his friends are just hugely relieved. it was like a bombshell. i was dumbfounded, i could not really think. the fact that this was a happy end, the special operations staff, and that he was alive, should not dismiss the other cases where probably the russian government was involved in killing journalists. in the time that the deception was racing around the world,
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most people simply defaulted to the information wars positions that have become so established in the four years since russia began its actions against the ukrainian government. true to form, responding to the earlier reports suggesting a kremlin hit, the russian foreign minister answered that knee jerk reaction with one of his own. tonight, mr lavrov‘s ministry was already calling the babchenko
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affair an anti—russian provocation and kremlin loyalists will have a new card to play the next time a critic of president putin is murdered. reasonably now, the kremlin and its people, next time someone is killed, will be able to say, here we are being blamed again? without any foundation or basis in truth. but we have previous cases. without a happy ending. we had the famous journalist... we had italia, they worked as journalists. and this incident, these are directly linked to the kremlin so they cannot say that so whatever they say poor propaganda purposes does not really matter. another layer of disinformation has been added to the ukraine
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russia story today. it is always murky and perhaps that is inevitable when so many other players in shadow war there are people who learned their trade in the kgb. well, mark urban is with me now. why such an elaborate plot? you know that someone is trying to kill the man, you just take him away and hide him? if you go with the ukraine security service version of it, there was something bigger going on. they wanted to engage this man who was arrested, the hired assassin that he hired informed the sp what was going on and they use this person to get him more deeply committed and find out other things, that up to 30 people were on a hit list and there was mention at the press conference of up
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to 300 assault rifles, kilos of high explosives, a regular storm of mayhem this person was allegedly about to unleash. their argument was the plot had to go ahead because they wanted to intercept communications that might have followed a successful hit. and you have to let it go all the way to get the best communications? do you think we would have done that? in northern ireland in the 80s and 90s there were literally dozens of occasions when there was credible intelligence of a murder plot and there were lots of occasions when these plots were disrupted. there are lots of ways to do this, you can send a person away on holiday somewhere. you can create and a diversion by police outside his flat, checking vehicles at the time the assassin is supposed to come along, there are all sorts of ways to disrupt these plots without faking the death of someone. and enlisting everybody from the journalists, they are pretty expendable in this, but even the likes of borisjohnson, lots of people were chiming
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in on what they believed might have been a russian inspired hit. thank you very much. joining me now from kiev is the deputy prime minister of ukraine, ivanna klympush—tsintsadze. thank you forjoining us. do you accept that ukraine will take a knock to its reputation as a result of this deception? you know, when we are trying to assess the situation from the world which is democratic, free and developed, i think we are missing one point. we are coming from the presumption that security should be taken for granted. it is not the case in ukraine. security is not a luxury that we all enjoy all the time. therefore, we have to ensure that with having security, we also have to deal and enjoy democracy and procedures and so on and unfortunately we do not have any nato umbrella to cover us or any working oi’ memorandum assurances to ensure
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we do not have to do all of the hard work on our own. therefore we must ensure that we are preserving the lives of citizens who have entrusted their lives to the state of ukraine. and ensure that we use all the possibilities to do that. that is what happened when the security forces and the security services of ukraine have, as the material has shown, that they have uncovered the additional list of 30 people who have been under or possibly would have been under attack. that means that... you will put those people, we will see someone on trial with public evidence so we can see
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there was a plot and you did help solve that plot with this lie last night? 0ur security services have worked very specifically under their mandate. they carried out their responsibilities professionally and we also have to understand that according to the ukrainian law, the evidence they had before that was not enough to ensure they would be able to deliver it to the court and have the court case full and ready. that is another reason for such a case. and we have to understand that when we are trying to paint the picture, it is not always back and white. if we are leaning for a black and white picture, we will not necessarily get the correct answers. the right answers. you accept that your allies,
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like the british foreign secretary, where tweeting support for the ukrainian position today and were perhaps made to look silly because they were not told, you were not told, very few people were told this was deception. are you going to explain or apologise to your allies about the 2a hours of confusion they had to endure? we are standing together with our allies and partners and with all of our hearts and our minds and all of our actions, we have been standing together with britain, when the salisbury attack was happening, and i think the british security services would probably, if that was the only way, that is how they would protect someone, they would ensure there was no assassination happening and how they could get additional information and get the people detained who have been behind this particular assassination attempt, they would have done it a similar way in the british situation. so i think that there is a plausible explanation and i am sure the security forces,
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the security services and our prosecution general will be sharing this information but their partners and their counterparts immediately in different countries who are our partners and i am sure that we will explain the support that we believe is needed for the country that is every single day fighting on the front against the russian federation. deputy prime minister, we need to leave it there. thank you forjoining us. i know it is very late where you are. joining me in the studio is russia expert edward lucas. what was your reaction when you heard he came out alive? i am delighted he is alive and i am still very angry that the russians
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were trying to kill him. they did not succeed, thanks to the brilliance of the ukrainian security services. but clearly, they have killed people in the past and the ukrainians are to be believed when they say there was a plot going on and that is very unpleasant. you are going to say but? the difficulty here is this is a card you can only really played once. i wonder what will happen next time there is an assassination and when people are trying to whip up international support and outrage over an assassination and the back of the minds of many people, they will think, is this just another very clever intelligence sting? it may be that the ukrainians have uncovered something so dramatic that this extraordinary means was necessary. it is also possible they may have overdone it and we will only know that when we get more facts. the deputy prime minister said
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you would have done the same. mark urban described how in northern ireland we had a bunch of different tricks for taking people out of the way every thought was a plot against them. how normal is this? it is very easy for us in the west feeling pretty safe, salisbury aside, to lecture ukrainians who really are fighting the evidence will be strong to convince people of this was the right thing to do. let's go back to kiev. and we're alsojoined from kiev by ukrainian journalist maxim eristavi. thank you forjoining us.
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many in the west have been critical of this approach of the ukrainians, do you feel it was a justified deception? i think, this evening, after a tormentor is 24 hours i am happy mike colleague was alive and that his assassination happy my colleague was alive and that his assassination was prevented. this is the most important thing. the shared feeling we have, not only you ukrainian journalists but ukrainians in general, unfortunately, having or seeing justice to be served in the name ofjournalists in eastern europe or ukraine is a rare case. it is a ground—breaking development. could have been handled better in terms of communication, probably. but, again, i don't want to be in that position actually without knowing the contents of the case to make that very hard judgment. the deputy prime minister's point was that it is very dangerous and you are on the front line. i wonder how dangerous it feels to journalists, particularly those covering any kind of russian activity. there is a big gap in perspective.
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a lot of my foreign friends today criticised this development. they don't actually understand that when you become a journalist in ukraine, i became a journalist 15 years ago, having this lingering thought in the back of your head that you can be assaulted or killed and there is nojustice served in your name is part of the package. therefore, when somebody sees a development like that and sees that the justices actually, you know, somebody was protected. this is remarkable. that is why they're so many people in ukraine ukrainian journalists celebrating this. i think that is absolutely right and it is terrific to see the ukrainian authorities to go to such lengths to protect mr babchenko. there have been very brave ukrainian journalists and russian journalist in ukraine that had been killed and nothing much has happened.
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i wonder what the prosecutor general has shown such greatness on this but not on some of the other ones. i wonder if maybe there is a bit of political warfare going on. the security service is keen to show what they can do because it gets them a few political points on top of the doubtless admirable motives. putting aside the tactic, the bigger cost in terms of trust and discourse, i wonder if i can ask, on russian television tonight, a commentator has led, a commentator has said, "this proves the skripals in britain, it is fake news, they have made this up because it is a stunt to humiliate russia". do you think this damages western integrity and western credibility in the kind of disinformation wars? i don't think we can equalise the actions that are done by many
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actors in the region in terms of russia and fake news. it is something that is closely related to protecting somebody's life. i do believe, though, there is a big gap between the actions of both sides. at the same time, i don't deny there are huge problems and issues and questions that ukrainian law enforcement agencies... towards the general prosecutor's office. today's events, whatever, you know, whatever the reason was for them to do that, it's still, you know, landed a concrete results. last one, briefly, edward, we don't want russian habits to become pervasive in the west do we? where lies on one side turned into lies on the other and the hapless public don't know who to believe. that is the great danger.
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trying to fight the great putini machine, that we end up putinising ourselves that would be a weird way of ourselves. way of defending ourselves. thank you. exactly a month ago, sajid javid was appointed home secretary, and we were still in the immediate aftermath of national shock at so many people of the windrush generation had been treated by immigration authorities. 0r mis—treated, i should say. in the fortnight before mrjavid rose to his newjob, there had been a plethora of individual cases highlighted on this programme and the media generally. the government made clear that the hostile environment they had faced was an error, and that injustices would be rectified. so how has that been going? james clayton got to know several of the people who featured on this programme, and he's been keeping in touch, to see whether the home office has been true to its word. pain can display itself in many forms. anger, despair, confusion. why can't i come back?
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what united the victims of the windrush scandal, though, was one of injustice. injustice that the government promised to put right. i'm personally committed to resolving this situation with urgency and purpose. a month later, we've gone back to some of the people at the centre of this scandal. sajid javid will be an excellent home secretary. thank you. a scandal that brought down a home secretary. hermine thompson came to the uk in 1962. she was diagnosed with dementia five years ago. her daughter, yvonne, was distraught. when she was here first, i used to come out here everyday. i used to just sit down and cry. in the past year, yvonne hasn't been able to visit her mum. why? well, because yvonne has been in a detention centre. so, how long were you in yarlswwood for?
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for eight months. eight months? it was terrible. we are human beings. and when they want to deport anybody, they handcuff you with your hand behind you, sometimes the ladies, they take them in their nighties. yvonne was released from yarl‘s wood just a few days after this statement was published by the home office at the height of the scandal. free citizenship was to be given to the windrush generation and their children. home office statements, though, aren't always what they seem. last week, the government published new guidance caveating that statement. yvonne came to the uk as an adult and so, in fact, is not eligible for citizenship. do you think the government has helped you ? no, i haven't got any help, as yet. the government hasn't helped you at all? no. hasn't contacted you? no. so, what's your current status, now? i'm still illegal. and that means you could still be deported ? yeah.
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and how does that make you feel? it makes me feel awful. i've been here so long. but your mum... your mum would be heartbroken, if she knew what was going on. yeah, she would. the home office told newsnight tonight that they are considering yvonne's case. a month ago, 82—year—old clayton barnes was in hospital in jamaica. his daughter, samantha, told me she thought he'd never return to the uk. it would have been nice for him to come back, because this is his family life, this is where he got married, this is where he had kids, this is where he worked. clayton became quite the media star. the roofer who'd lived in england for over 50 years and had been barred from re—entering the country now found himself back in the uk. what did you miss most, what are you most looking forward to doing? page three, man. 0h, clayton, man. i'd just assembled a politically correct citadel... every morning!
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the sun in my hand, man! get him out of here, get him out of the studio! did you think you'd ever come back to the uk? no. the chap said to me, "0k, mr barnes, you're free to go, they'll let you in". and i thought, "i was going to say, bollocks". for clayton, what the government has to do is pretty simple. i'd love an apology, number one. british citizenship and compensation and i'm good. the government has apologised and given clayton a biometric permit, a sort of id card. but so far, clayton hasn't been given any indication of if or when he'll be given a passport. for the barnes family, a passport postponed is justice denied. with these biometric cards, i just feel that it's. .. ifeel it's degrading. i can't explain it any more other than, you know, it's almost like we're begging someone... like i shouldn't have that. like we're begging someone for you to have your given right. like i say, he's 82 years old. it almost feels like 50 years
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has just been wiped out and it doesn't exist. that's why it upsets me so much. he's a really kind, nice man and i don't know why... i feel like he shouldn't be treated that way. just give him the passport, let the man travel freely. and this... and that's my indefinite leave to remain biometric... sonia williams was one of the first people the government helped. with that letter, she thought her ordeal was over. wind forward a month and things are rather different. the last time you saw me, i showed you this. i was very excited, wasn't i? but it's still not making any difference. i still can't find a job. i mean, i'm looking. i've tried to apply forjobseeker‘s allowance, unemployment benefit. and i was told i couldn't apply for it, because i didn't pay any national contributions. i'm still feeling trapped. i don't know if i'm coming or going, sometimes.
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if it wasn't for my family, i don't know where i would be, honestly. i have just got a piece of paper and a little card. and i've got nothing. in the weeks that have gone by since this scandal, the government has acted — there's no questioning that. but for many affected, the promises that were made, the wrongs that were to be righted and the help that was supposed to be given simply hasn't materialised yet. well, we put some of those stories to the home office. they told us that a new windrush scheme, that comes into effect as of today, will make it easier for those concerned to access support and to understand what is on offer. it's ten months since so—called islamic state was defeated in northern iraq. the consequences of their presence there will be felt for a long time — a fact that is obviously true for the group's hundreds of thousands of victims, who need to rebuild their lives, if they ever can. but there is another group living with the consequences of is‘s reign of terror: the families of the is fighters, and their wives, who came from abroad to join the organisation.
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most of the men may now be dead, but many of the is women and children have simply vanished without trace. what happened to them? tim whewell reports now from russia and iraq on a mystery that's left many desperate relatives in limbo. northern iraq. august 29th, last year. so—called islamic state is finally defeated. the ragtag remnants of its army paraded here by their kurdish captors. many of these fighters are foreign.
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the object of particular revulsion in iraq. but it's notjust men. behind the line, huddled on the ground, are women and children. the prisoners' families. including the wife and two children of this man. nodar was one of hundreds of jihadis recruited from the caucasus mountains of southern russia. it's thought that more fighters joined is from the former soviet union than from anywhere else in the world. the city nodar and his family left behind was nalchik. he grew up here with his mother, madina. but you've never seen him?
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nodar travelled to syria in 2014. part of a russian jihadist group fighting president assad's regime. in 2015, he took a break with his family in turkey. there, they were recruited by is, who took away their passports. soon afterwards, they moved to iraq to join the so—called caliphate. the family ended up in tal afar in north—west iraq. the videos they sent home
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really have been tricked. this one talks joyfully of a sea of blood. many of the images are too shocking to show. is ruled tal afar, where nodar and his family lived, for three long years. but by last august, it was the group's only remaining stronghold in the region. iraqi forces drove the jihadis from the town. days later, that video of is prisoners was already circulating on the web and madina recognised nodar. madina is not alone in her desperation. more than 2,000 russian women and children who lived under is have simply disappeared.
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the lists of missing jihadi families go on and on. i have been trying to trace many of these families for months. now, i have come to iraq on the trail of some faint voices that have finally emerged from the rubble of mosul. those messages were sent secretly by a woman who was taken by her husband tojoin is. she says the group of 210 are all women and children.
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they have been held for six months. they say they are being beaten and they fear they will be sold into prostitution. and with them, in the same dungeon, is nodar‘s wife, ayesha, and their children. a secret message from her explains how the women were captured. and also from ayesha, the first clue about where they were being held. abu jaafar al—shabaki
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is a well—known figure around mosul. he commands a division of hashd al—shaabi militia, a mainly shia fighting force that lost many men in the fight to defeat is. his ethnic group, the shabak, was particularly targeted by thejihadis. these villages around here are all populated by the shabak minority. when isis came, they had to flee, otherwise they would all have been murdered. now, slowly, they are beginning to come back. but even now, these villages are only half populated. i have come to find abu jaafar at his base outside mosul.
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i know he's keeping the 210 women and children captive somewhere near here. but abu jaafar doesn't know that i know anything about it. he has agreed to see me to talk about his own community. from 2004 to 2014, we gave 1,735 sacrificed. people lilled? martyrs? people killed in terrorist attacks? yes. because they are shia and shabak. what we understand is that there is a group of people, women and children... isis women and children. and that you've been looking after them, is that right? from where you have this information? some of those people's relatives in russia, for example. we heard from them. yes, they are here. but this issue belongs to the hashd
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al—shaabi intelligence court, and iraqi court. it does not belong to me. roughly, how many are here now? including the children, all of them is, ithink, 200, 210. including the children? yeah, with the children. but they have got a very, very good place. like a hotel. 5—star hotel! wow! yes! abu jaafar wants to show me what kind of man he really is. he's taking me on a journey through villages destroyed by the fighting. his militia now defend areas that are vulnerable to attack from is sleeper cells. i built this school. you built the school? yes.
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look... isis did that. and he is rebuilding ruined schools to serve shia and sunni children. we bring these stools for them from mosul. we transport it here. we try to serve the people. but abu jaafar is also the man accused of holding prisoners for months in appalling conditions. the details are spelled—out in smuggled letters. mama, please, get us out of here. everyone's ill. most of the children have pneumonia. there are nearly 100 people per room. the children are desperate to get out. but when they cry, the guards beat the women. let me ask you something, though, about the women and children. yes. we have seen messages from them. they are sleeping on a concrete floor. no. 100 people in one room, the children have got pneumonia. we're talking about children. this is not right. really? yes.
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believe me. but sometimes they say the guards were beating them. no, no way. absolutely not. this is not true. i am a human and i try to treat a human as a human. just check this in your brain. butjust before that encounter with abu jaafar, i discovered that he had already been forced to give up his captives. under pressure from the russian authorities, the 210 women and children had been transferred the previous night to an overcrowded government jail in baghdad. in recent weeks, iraq has jailed more than 20 russian women for life for belonging to is. the russian government hopes it will be able to bring their children home. but in iraq, there is little sympathy for them. is raped, murdered, enslaved without pity. it destroyed entire historic communities. all adult members, or sympathisers, must have known of its crimes. the men must all have been guilty or at least complicit.
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i'm heading north west now, towards the syrian border. this is the town where is made its last stand in this part of iraq. you can just see from the destruction how intense the fighting must have been. and i think i've found where nodar was last seen. this must be the exact spot where this video of the line—up of the men and boys was made, because i can see it's exactly the same hills here behind and exactly those buildings of the village over there. so this is exactly the spot. the prisoners were led by their kurdish peshmerga captors
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into this schoolyard. separated from the women and children, a few hundred men were placed, huddled, against this wall. a fleet of buses took the women and children towards iraqi army—held territory. while the men were driven further north, further behind kurdish lines. this video is the evidence of what happenned next on this bleak, arid flood plain. 375 is prisoners are believed to have been summarily executed here by kurdish forces. according to the evidence collected by human rights watch, the shootings went on for a week. men taken out and executed night after night and then many of the bodies dumped here. we don't know for certain that
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madina's son, nodar, the last one in the line on the video, is one of the ones who were killed. but it does seem quite likely. the kurdish authorities deny responsibility for what happened and there are no plans yet for an investigation. is fighters — you might think they deserved anything they got. but the woman, the children? here in iraq, the silence over their fate, too, is yet to be broken. amazing journalism. a quick look at the papers, the sun, you only live twice. the telegraph, a claim that women aren't fit for a boardroom. the daily mirror, nuclear test crews were used as human guinea pigs. that's almost it for tonight, but before we go, the case of arkady babchenko is not the first time that someone has greatly exaggerated the reports of his own death.
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there have been some pretty memorable incidences — both real and fictional — over the years of life after death. here are a few. goodnight. mr stonehouse looked a little apprehensive, as he stepped out into the black country sunshine. it had been more than ten months since his constituents had seen him. # back from the dead baby #. applause good evening. at the end of this weather forecast you might be
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thinking, here we go again. because once again the weather is in turbulent mood and during tomorrow, some of us will see some vicious thunderstorms, particularly across central and southern parts of the uk. torrential downpours which could bring localised flooding and travel disruption looks likely. you can see the view from space, the way the showers and storms have been developing across the near continent, these big storm clouds pushing in our direction. what we've got to contend with first of all is whether from making its got to contend with first of all is whetherfrom making its way got to contend with first of all is whether from making its way across scotla nd whether from making its way across scotland and northern ireland. 0utbreaks scotland and northern ireland. outbreaks of rain with that. dry conditions behind it but muggy conditions behind it but muggy conditions through the night. tomorrow starts off on a cloudy note but then it is all eyes to the south—east. thunderstorms initially likely to spreading across south east anglia, wales and the south—west. they will be hit and
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miss but if you catch one it will give a lot of rain in a short space of time. frequent lightning and there could be poor travelling conditions. further north, we start with a lot of cloud. as the sun comes out things will brighten up the mac could be enough to cause one 01’ the mac could be enough to cause one or two showers for northern england, northern ireland and scotland but the heaviest showers can always be found further south. 21 degrees in edinburgh, 23 in london. some of these showers will continue to rumble around tomorrow night, drifting west. tending to fizzle out as they continue to move west, but there will be a lot of cloud, and at a muggy started friday morning. 0n friday there are more thunderstorms in the forecast. a slightly different area this time, part of wales, most likely to see these heavy, thundery showers which will be slow—moving. barely a breath of wind to push them along so if you
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catch one, it could be with you for quite a long time. more in the way of sunshine across the south—east. 0n of sunshine across the south—east. on saturday, the drier conditions will spread northwards. showers in northern ireland and scotland at this stage but a warm feel to the weather. as we get into sunday and monday, things will turn quieter for all others. fewer showers with spells of sunshine and generally warm. if you have travel plans for the next 24 hours, watch out for some potentially vicious thunderstorms. good night. this is newsday on the bbc... i'm rico hizon in singapore, the headlines: north korea's former spy chief touches down in new york to discuss the nuclear summit — the white house is optimistic it's now back on. back from the dead — the russian journalist reported to have been murdered in ukraine, is alive and well after all. translation: i have buried friends
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and colleagues many times, and i know the sickening feeling. i'm sorry you had to experience it, but there was no other way. i'm babita sharma in london. also in the programme... the country un—friending facebook — why papua new guinea is planning a month—long ban of the social network. and what is behind the disappearance of dozens of shia men in pakistan?
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