company back and get it back its soul. . thank you very much. >> visit booktv.org to watch any of the programs you see here online. type the author or book title in the search bar on the upper left side of the page and click search. you can also share anything you see on booktv.org easily by clicking share on the upper left side of the page and selecting the format. booktv streams live online for 48 hours every weekend with top nonfiction books and authors. booktv.org. >> up next, shirin ebadi, author of "the golden cage." she talks about three brothers who grew up under the reign of the shah of iran. one was a supporter of the revolution. this is about an hour, ten minutes.

[applause] [speaking in native tongue] th. >> translator: good evening, ladies and gentlemen, i want to thank each and every one of you for having come here to listen to me. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: i also want to thank the organizers of this meeting. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: i'm very glad that i, this is the second time that i'm speaking at this institute. the first time that i was here was to introduce my first book,

"iran awakening." [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: through my life story, i wanted to, um, introduce iran to the people of the world. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: and i'm glad to introduce my second book to you entitled, "the golden cage." [speaking in native tongue] >> >> translator: parts of the last 32 years of the history of iran is narrated in this story

through this true story of a family. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: my motive in this book was a phrase that i have quoted at the beginning of my book from an iranian sociologist who says if you cannot eliminate injustice, at least talk about it. [speaking in native tongue]

>> translator: those parts of the last 33 years -- 33 years history of iran that are depicted and narrated in this book will help you understand what the people of iran want today, what their demands are. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: and in what situation is iran today? [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: in brief, i'm going to use a few statistics to tell you about the situation of iran. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: pursuant to a

report of reporters without borders, over 40 journalists and web blog writers are in prison now. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: and iran is the last on, among 173 countries when it comes to respect for freedom of speech. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: pursuant to a report of amnesty, during the past 12 months over 300 people have been executed in iran. some of them were political prisoners. [speaking in native tongue]

>> translator: when political prisoners are executed, unfortunately, their bodies are not even given to their families. they are buried without knowing where, in hiding. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: after china, iran has the most number of executions in the world. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: iran has the most number of underage criminals in the world, the most number of executions of underage criminals in the world. [speaking in native tongue]

>> translator: pursuant to a law that passed after the revolution of 1979, the age of criminal responsibility has been reduced. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: this age is 9 years for girls and 15 years for boys. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: this means that if a 10-year-old girl or a 16-year-old boy commit a crime, the law will punish them as if a 0-year-old had committed that -- 40-year-old had committed that crime. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: and this is why, unfortunately, execution of underage, under the age of 18 criminals exists in iran.

[speaking in native tongue] >> translator: pursuant to a report of the international monetary fund, the economic growth of iran in 2010 has been zero, and the rate of inflation has been 22%. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: the rate of unemployment in iran is very high, and pursuant to the report of the economic experts, it's over 30%. [speaking in native tongue]

>> translator: these statistics prove that the situation in iran is deteriorating. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: and in addition to that, the continuous violation of human rights helps it as well. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: for example, in iran we have discrimination on the basis of gender. [speaking in native tongue]

>> translator: pursuant to a law that was passed after the revolution, the life of a woman is worth half of that of a man. this means that if i'm me and myself and my brother go on the street and we're attacked by someone or something happens on the street, the compensation paid to my brother would be twice as much as the compensation paid to me. excuse me. this light is right in my eye, and i can't, i can't -- maybe right here. >> [inaudible] >> okay. sorry. [speaking in native tongue] >> can't keep my eyes open. sorry. [speaking in native tongue]

>> translator: pursuant to the laws, the testimony of two women in court equal testimony of one man. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: a man can marry four wives, can divorce his wife on no grounds, but divorce can be very difficult for women. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: in our laws discrimination on the basis of religion exist. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: pursuant to the law, the official releasing of a -- religion of the country is islam, however, other religions such add judaism, christianity

are also recognized. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: whereas approximately 300,000 -- [inaudible] live in iran who are deprived from all civil rights. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: even from the beginning of the revolution, they haven't been able to attend universities. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: also there's this discrimination between the muslims and those religions that

have been recognized according to the constitution. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: and i will give you one example in this regard. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: pursuant to the law, if among the heirs of the dissident there is a muslim, that muslim person will inherit all the property, and the others will be deprived. [speaking in native tongue] [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: for example, if

an iranian christian dies and that person has two daughters and one son whereas his nephew has converted to islam, all inheritance will go to the nephew, and his own children will be deprived of inheritance. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: there is also a difference between shias and sunni. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: in tehran where the population is 12 million, not even one permit for the construction of a sunni mosque has been issued.

[speaking in native tongue] >> translator: of course, the situation of the shias is not that god either in -- is not that good either in iran. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: one example was the attack on the pillar group. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: they were attacked brutally, and a number of them have been arrested. even three of the attorneys who defended them have been arrested as well. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: the government claims that these laws are islamic.

[speaking in native tongue] >> translator: we can't have any other law pause we're miss -- because we're muslims. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: but what we can say is that the same as other religions that have different interpretations, islam can have different interpretations too. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: look at the united states. one church does not accept abortion, the other church does. they are both christian churches. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: or the other example is the marriage of homosexuals which one church may agree and one church may not,

whereas they're both, again, christian churches. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: islam has different interpretations too. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: the issue is democracy. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: in nondemocratic governments, the government only accepts its own interpretation of religion or ideology. and does not pay attention to other interpretations. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: therefore, a number of very well known clergy are against such laws and say that we can change them.

these are not islamic laws. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: but since they are not in political power, no one listens to them, and they have not succeeded yet. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: their pioneer was the ayatollah who said this government is neither islamic, nor republic. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: and what was the reaction of the defenders of human rights to all these violations of human rights? [speaking in native tongue]

>> translator: fortunately, there are numerous human rights defenders in iran who work for the advancement of human rights. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: within the last two years, three resolutions have been passed by the united nations for condemning iran of violations of human rights. [speaking in native tongue]

>> translator: the last of which was the resolution of the human rights council of the united nations, and due to the deterioration of the situation of human rights, a special envoy was designated for iran. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: and we have three countries in the world that are in such a bad condition that they require a special envoy; burma, north korea and iran. [speaking in native tongue]

[speaking in native tongue] >> translator: and, fortunately, a few months ago -- a few weeks ago the european union announced the names of 32 iranians. they have been banned from entering europe. if they have any property in europe, their property will be confiscated even if it is in swiss banks. these people have participated in the killings and repression of the people. [speaking in native tongue]

>> translator: of course, violators of human rights are smarter than that. i think up until now they have moved their property and transferred it to other countries where they can later use it and live a good life. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: but the important point is that the world has become smaller for violaters of human rights. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: and they understand now that they can be held accountable for the killing and repression of our people somewhere, some way. [speaking in native tongue]

>> translator: the first time sanks against people -- sanctions against people who have participated in the killings of others were taken, the decision was made in america. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: the united states has come up with a list of eight persons who have participated in the killing and repression of the people. their property will be confiscate inside this country, and they are banned from entering this country. unfortunately, these eight people are among the -- or these eight names are among the 32 names that the european union has announced. [speaking in native tongue]

>> translator: these kind of sanctions are smart sanctions meaning that it does not punish all of the people of one country, but it only goes after those who have committed the crimes. [speaking in native tongue] [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: the issue that i read in the media, the press,

specifically the american press, is that if america leaves the countries in the middle east that have faced the uprising of the people, will iran replace america in those countries? [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: this means that the uprising of the people will result in the influence, unhealthy influence of iran in the region or not. speak peek talk about -- speak speak tong. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: in general, i have to say that governments should have relationships with each other. they should have trade relations and political relations.

[speaking in native tongue] >> translator: and i don't see any problem that a government, even a government like iran, has relations with other countries. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: the problem is that one country is influenced by the other country to the extent that it becomes like a puppet for that other country. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: so what i want to talk about now is -- excuse me -- whether iran can add to

its purpose as a result of the uprising of the people of the region or not. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: in tunisia, certainly, this is not going to happen. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: in tunisia the civil society is strong, even since the era of -- [inaudible] it has been secular. laws have been passed in regard, and a strength of the civil society in that country will not permit it to become a puppet of iran. [speaking in native tongue]

>> translator: and tunisia will have democracy after getting rid of ben ali. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: and we know that in a democratic government, national interests are always at issue. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: but in egypt the situation is a little bit different. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: islamic radical groups are strong there in that country. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: specifically, the islamic brotherhood. [speaking in native tongue]

>> translator: the probability of one dictator leaving and the other dictator replacing it is high. like what happened in iran in 1979. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: in 1979 we uprose against the shah which was a nondemocratic government, and we wanted independence and freedom. however, up until now we have not achievement anded that. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: therefore, we have to pay attention that getting rid of a dictator is not enough. we have to replace it with democracy. [speaking in native tongue]

>> translator: now look at egypt. they have gotten rid of the dictator. will we have democracy there? [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: it may be too early to judge now. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: but even if a religious dictator comes into power, egypt will not become a puppet of iran. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: on the basis of four reasons. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: they are sunnis and iranians are shias. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: and, unfortunately, there have always been differences and conflicts between the shias and the sunniss. [speaking in native tongue]

..

both have races -- racist sentiments. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: on the basis of the four reasons there will be relations and political relations between iran and

egypt, but it is normal relations mike the relations of iran and italy. egypt is not going to become the puppet of a run. back. [speaking in native tongue] [laughter] >> translator: they found power so sweet that when they left they both had heart attacks. [speaking in native tongue] [laughter] >> translator: i don't know wind, but maybe in the near future khaddafi will have a heart attack to.

[speaking in native tongue] >> translator: win quadhafi has his heart attack and leaves the country certainly due to the fact that the west has helped the people when libya is not calling to become a puppet of iran because they're not going to forget what the west has done for them. [speaking in native tongue]

>> translator: and now syria has a nondemocratic government. even presidency has become hereditary. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: and you may blinded interesting to know that the people of syria, the majority of syria rs in any. before -- for the last 50 years

the minority. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: the people of syria are tired of the dictatorship and have of prison. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: unfortunately the government of iran on sent forces to the government of syria to repress these people. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: the people of syria are certainly going to win. [speaking in native tongue]

>> translator: history has proven that no government, no and undemocratic government will be there forever. it is certain that the family will have to leave. it is only the time that we cannot tell. [laughter] in two months when i have a heart attack -- he will have a heart attack to. [speaking in native tongue]

>> translator: the relationship that exists today will change if the people wind, and if there is a relation it will be like to help the relation, a political relation. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: and the government of iran will lose its and help the influence in syria. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: the important issue is regarding yemen and bahrain. [speaking in native tongue]

>> translator: in these two countries the shias are the minority on the front line of the uprising, and there are being killed and part oppressed badly. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: saudi arabia sent forces to bahrain to help the government to kill more people. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: the world has closed its eyes on the killings of shias in bahrain and yemen. [speaking in native tongue]

>> translator: and the only country that supports them, and i want to repeat here, the only country that supports them is there on. there is financial support. at iran provides them with arms, and iran has brought a complaint to the designations in this regard. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: on the day the people when, you know how many people exist there to appreciate iran? [speaking in native tongue] at. >> translator: and at the same time, let's not forget that both countries were small countries.

[speaking in native tongue] >> translator: and remember at that time that i went to school we were taught that the rain was one of the provinces of a run. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: it gains independence letter. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: they are both small countries, and with regard to the power of a run, the largeness of the country, the population, both of these countries can become puppets of the politics of iran.

[speaking in native tongue] >> translator: we have to be aware that these two countries do not fall within the trap of iran and the unhealthy violence should not go there. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: through protests of the killings of the shias in bahrain and yemen. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: with helping them. [speaking in native tongue]

>> translator: twice as many people as were killed in egypt and tunisia were killed in bahrain and yemen. however, when it came to tony's yen egypt opposed the mubarak had to listen to the people. it looks like they have closed their eyes and ears when it comes to the shias being killed in bahrain and yemen. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: what kind of behavior should we have toward

nondemocratic government? [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: i'm not talking about human to mount a rain, and tehran, but in general. >> translator: the word solution is a military attack. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: run by that democracy is not merchandise to be exported. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: democracy cannot be purchased and sent to another country. [speaking in native tongue]

>> translator: war and military attacks on nondemocratic countries should be forgotten. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: dictators actually like to be attacked by foreigners so that on the excuse of national security they can put away their opposition. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: economic sanctions are not correct either because they will hurt the people. [speaking in native tongue]

>> translator: not withstanding the ten years of economic sanctions against iraq the people, millions of people died as a result of being deprived of food and medication. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: i always recommend political sanctions instead of economic sanctions. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: what is the political sanction? [speaking in native tongue]

>> translator: it is measures taken against violators of human rights that do not hurt the people. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: fortunately 32 people that we spoke of about are on the list of the european union have been politically sanctions. this is the first time in history this has happened. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: therefore smart sanctions of the dictators are one of the, one of political

sanctions. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: the other measure would be to reduce the level of political ambassadors from the ambassador to a lower level of nondemocratic countries for countries that believe in democracy and human rights. [speaking in native tongue]

>> translator: for example, i want to talk about the european union after the tears of a run in europe. one of them was at a restaurant where the tribunal was held. the other one was the assassination of dr. bastian. the countries in europe and lower the level at the embassy level, and most of the ambassadors and left tehran. [speaking in native tongue]

>> translator: they have been secured europe, and this is what we want to recall our ambassadors. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: for approximately six months no european ambassadors were in tehran. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: this resulted in the assassinations in europe being reduced. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: the most important thing in political sanctions is international criminal court. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: violators should be referred to the international court.

[speaking in native tongue] >> translator: in order to be able to trying violators of human rights in this court we have to strengthen the court. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: all of the european catch countries have ratified the international criminal court mention. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: approximately 90 countries. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: but the international criminal court has an acute syria's enemies that stop its progress. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: is rare, america, china, and russia.

[speaking in native tongue] >> translator: of want to ask you, progressive censuses of the united states, put pressure on the government to ratify the international criminal court mention, the ratification of the united states will strengthen this court. [speaking in native tongue]

>> translator: america is the superpower, and it can play an important role in the expansion of the icc and acceptance of its jurisdiction. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: we are in the globalization era. what we see is that trade has become globalized, but justice has to be globalized as well. >> translator: [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: in nondemocratic countries where dictators devilish shadow is on the judiciary, how can we expect justice? [speaking in native tongue]

>> translator: therefore there is no other solution but for the international criminal court to try them. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: in the globalization era of faith go altogether the, entangled. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: any event that happens in any country can impact events in other countries. we should not be indifferent to the fate of the people. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: what we want for ourselves we should walk for others. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: let's forgive, like this guy.

[speaking in native tongue] >> translator: and let's spread like this done. >> translator: let's cooperate and plant the seed of corporation like the earth. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: spread the love for humanity like the wind. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: let's be kind to each other, kind. thank you. [applause] [applause]

[applause] >> agreed to take a few questions. i will call on you one at time. i ask you to keep your questions brief. introduce yourself and make it an actual question rather than a statement. sir. >> do you think that the united states and other countries that are silent on bahrain are in no way playing to the hands of the islamic republic of iran which would like to be the protectors of bahrain's protesters? is so by ignoring the events in bahrain, are we actually helping or are we losing legitimacy and helping them take the role of

the protectors, the ones who will rescue them? vote[speaking in native tongue] advice. >> translator: with your silence url wrapping go and that is what i talked about. >> i would like to ask my question in persian. [speaking in native tongue]

>> translator: regarding the international criminal court at think there are some practical problems. for example, when it came to a mark, although the court had summoned him they have not been able to arrest him and try him. so what are your recommendations in this regard? [speaking in native tongue]

>> translator: it is true that he has not been arrested, but had he not been summoned to the international criminal court he would have killed another hundred thousand or more than nine. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: and it was for the deterrent that the icc had or the international criminal court had created that he agreed to the cessation. now it is becoming a different country. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: key cannot sleep properly because he cannot go anywhere. [speaking in native tongue]

[speaking in native tongue] >> translator: of course the court could have been stronger. this is why i say help it to become stronger. as for the united states, make its charter. >> my name is john burke. i am a student. to you believe that iraq is in a similar position to bahrain where it is susceptible to iranian influence? thank-you. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: the present government of iraq, yes.

[speaking in native tongue] >> translator: i want to give you an example. the merger had been were in a rock. it revealed the fracture there is a plan to that is building nuclear equipment. thirty-six hours later they were attacked by the iraqi forces, and the number of key people

were killed. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: is that not questionable to you, two incidents being disclosed? [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: therefore, iraq has close relationships to about the situation is different with syria. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: in syria you can only hear the voice. whereas it is sort of a democracy where other voices can

be heard. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: and i repeat by saying that it is all right, totally all right for two countries to have mutual trade and political relationships. what the problem is is when one country influences the other and the other country becomes a puppet of that country. [speaking in native tongue]

in english? [laughter] okay. my first question was regarding the green movement and is it really the people who are behind this? if their activities are going to help overthrow the government. my second question was about as iranians on living outside and we can do to help our people fighting for freedom and justice? [speaking in native tongue] [laughter] >> translator: one of the benefits is that it can drive you blind.

[speaking in native tongue] >> translator: the green movement is in democratic movement, not an ideological one. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: the green movement does not have the construct of a political party, meaning that a few people at the top and not make orders and the rest implement. the expansion is horizontal, and it works on a network basis. [speaking in native tongue]

>> translator: not leaders of this movement, but they walked along with the movement. the presence has strengthened the movement. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: within this movement people with different ideologies exist, different groups, some of them believe that we have to throw the constitution out. [speaking in native tongue]

>> translator: something that this will not be possible without bloodshed in. the best thing to do is to use the present constitution. there are articles in the constitution that guarantee people's rights but have never been implemented. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: for example the rights of associations, political parties, and the group's teaching bears sox to children. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: i can't tell

which group is going to win. let's wait and see. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: up to this moment the government does not show any flexibility or listen to the people. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: with regard to the degree of the unhappiness of the people and the bad economic situation, icy air on as a fire under the ashes, but when the ashes will be blown away, i don't know. i can't tell you. [speaking in native tongue]

>> translator: what can the iranians outside do? [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: it depends upon the person, depending want one can do. not everyone can defend political prisoners. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: for example, if one is a doctor one can send medication or other medication that is scarce.

>> translator: creates without borders and recruit young doctors. there are a number of them. >> translator: [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: if you are an engineer, teach the people there on how to get rid of the filtering of the internet. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: therefore there is not one single prescription that i can write for all people. it depends on what people can do

for a long. what can the students to? [speaking in native tongue] [applause] >> every weekend book tv offers 48 hours of programming focused on nonfiction authors and books. watch it here on c-span2. >> poor mexican -- i want to start with the subtitle, mexico and the mexicans. where were you going? >> basically what i am trying to do is tell a story of mexico and its people for an american reader, although i'm also publishing the book

simultaneously in spanish and the united states for spanish-speaking readers in mexico. is being published simultaneously in mexico in spanish and another version with a different edition which has come out this very week. in mexico. the purpose is to tell the story to mexicans in the united states and mexicans in mexico. the story of two mexicans are, who we were, who we are now, and why we are. it doesn't really work anymore. >> what kind of change? >> the national character change. very well detected traits of the

mexican national character as described by classic others. anthropologist's, americans and others and say, okay, these character traits which were great for mexico over the last 500 years, both as a colony and an independent, bleeped compartmentation are totally dysfunctional. representative democracy. open democracy, localized, and a country that is absolutely desperate for the establishment of the rule of law. the character traits and these teachers don't work anymore. they are at odds. so since we cannot change material reality, we have to change people's heads. >> let's start with the mexican

middle class. what is wrong with it? >> this is doubly wrong with that. what is wrong with its members for who continue to be incredibly individualistic. the first chapter is one about mexican individualism which even by u.s. standards is outrageous. it is excessive. mexico is a country with west's collective or associates of participation than any country in latin america, but allow the united states or europe. we have never won anything in team sports, but we are good as individuals, boxers, runners, walker's. people don't like to live in high rises because they don't believe it is there home. they bought their home on the ground level which means the city's stretch out endlessly and cost a fortune.

we are a country where there are no collective action suits. the notion itself does not exist. a country of leaders of movements. we are not a country of processes. being so individualistic is great, except when 60 percent of your society is middle-class. >> how would you describe the current relationship between mexico and the united states? >> what i try to do in this book when i have a long chapter devoted to the relationship with the united states and the mexican national character of introspection with the past, of year of the foreign, and i try and explain why a country that is so tied to the united states

can no longer continue to be a country that often sounds of against the united states. i give an example from 2004, three actually in a city that you know well in guadalajara with the u.s. and mexico were competing for participation in the athens olympics soccer competition at the mexican stadium in guadalajara. the american players have been improvised. of a sudden toward the end of the game the crowd started chanting. some of our american people were watching. osama. osama. osama. needless to say the american players to have a little upset.

this would be insulting anywhere in the world, but in guadalajara is worse because it is the number-one sending space of emigrants to the united states and has been the 100 years. the home of puerto vallarta. it is the home of for 50 to 100,000 american retirees who live there and spend a wonderful time and are extraordinarily well received by mexican neighbors. in this city at this time to be that insulting to americans there is something going on which is not right. it doesn't work. as part of what the problem is. now we have the drug wars with

the united states is helping on, but not enough. >> you describe them as unworkable. >> it is a ridiculous war. we should not have started it and will never be able to win it. it has now cost us more than 40,000 lives, $50 billion. widespread human rights abuses, and a tremendous damage to mexico's image abroad with no results to show. there is nothing that can be done with drugs and mexico as long as the united states keeps consuming what it consumes, and it has not changed its consumption patterns. there is probably no reason why it should. i was a strong proponent of proposition 19 in california last november. i hoped it would pass legalizing marijuana in the state of california. it didn't losing by three points. i am hopeful that in 2012 it

will pass, and then we, in mexico, can also begin a process of legalization of drugs starting with marijuana. >> president calderon is conducting this war in mexico. is it time per him to ended? >> he is too stubborn. he has taken this as a personal battle of his own. he is all alone. the rest of the government and country tears not follow him, but he only has a year-and-a-half left. it doesn't really matter anymore except for the people who will continue to die, which is not a minor event. the next president will have to end this absurd war which is going nowhere. >> how open is the mexican economy? >> the point i try and make in the fourth chapter of this book is that we now have the mexican economy, the fifth chapter,

actually, one of the most open in the world. phar-mor open than the united states, many latin american economy, and similar to more european economies. some exports and imports over gdp is one of the highest that there are to more than 2%, a country where tourism is enormously important. the number one generator of hard currency and the number one employer where remittances from mexican emigrants abroad is a very important source of currency. also, by the way, in a country where there are more u.s. non-military nationals living than any other country in the world. around a million americans live in mexico which is more than anyplace else in the whole world this open economy, which has been a good thing by and large, not as good as many people thought it would be, and,

perhaps, not as beneficial as many expected, but it has been a good thing in general terms. it is also very much concentrated with the united states. 90 percent of our exports go to the u.s. 90 percent of our oil goes to the u.s. to be 90 percent of the tourists that visit mexico comes from the u.s. and so on and so forth. obviously all of our immigrants are in the u.s. by definition. a very open economy. mexico cannot be an introspective closed of character. we cannot have the traditional mexican way of being in our mind when in our everyday life we are an open economy. >> with the growing middle class in mexico, has that changed? >> it hasn't changed yet.

it is beginning to change, but we are still very much immersed in this sphere of the fallen, this notion that we have always been victims of the past. we were conquered by the spanish in 1519 and then humiliated and exploited for the following three centuries. then during the 19th century with independence. we had tax is taken away. 1836. in the united states and asia as in 1847. then the french in 1963. then the americans invaded as again in 1914 and so on and so forth. as a matter of fact, all of these factoids are more complicated than they seem, but in any case, what i try to say in this book and chapter is, let's move on. let's leave all that behind us and led to the future.

that's what to what the country has become. the citizens in the world, and the united states. the greater share than any country of the world, except el salvador and ecuador which are very small countries. as i said, a million americans live in mexico. 300 million crossed the border back and forth every year. why do we want to dwell on the past when we are so open and it is so beneficial to the country to be so open. we are obsessed. we have a very strange situation. it's one of the anecdotes are right about. we have laws that foreclose a series of government jobs and elected positions to naturalized

mexicans. naturalized mexican cannot be an ambassador, our consul, a member of the cabinet, governor, mayor, police chief, a member of the board of the central bank. you can have none of those. no congressman or senator. we are in this absurd situation. we demand rights for mexicans in the u.s., whether they came to the u.s. legally or illegally. we demand rights. we denied minimum rights to naturalize mexicans. american, spanish, brazilian, chinese, whatever. it is an absurd situation which cannot go on. >> foreign minister from 2000 gusty dozen three. how much of your time as foreign minister when dealing with the

u.s. did you spend -- well, first of all, how much of your time was spent dealing with the u.s.? of that time, how much was spent on emigration to back. >> as with any foreign minister, up to 70-75 percent of his time dealing with the u.s. we have a few other important relationships in the world. this is mexico's single most important issue with the u.s. by the way, i also think it is

the united states a single most important issue with mexico. there are 11 or 12 million a marriage -- mexicans residing in the u.s. there are important states in the u.s.-led california, texas, arizona, nevada, illinois where mexicans make up a very significant part of the electorate. the population at large. it is a central issue, and one that has to be addressed to no end that nobody wants to address forthright. >> how should it be addressed? >> a little bit the way that we said back in 2000 when in 2002 with my good friend and former secretary of state : paul, the way president bush wanted to address it, and the way president obama wants to address it now. legalize the people here without papers, establish a migrant worker program for people to be

able to continue to enter the united states as the u.s. economy needs labor. support and help the areas of mexico where migrants come from so that they eventually the star staying in their home towns of less they are needed in the u.s. once you have done that insure that the u.s.-mexican border is only open to legal entry with the cooperation of both countries to make that entry legal. you cannot stop illegal entries unless you increase the number of legal entries. if not he will have people climbing over the fence or under the fans were swarming across the moat with alligators and a power. >> what are you doing today? >> i spend about a third of my year in new york city teaching at nyu.

i spend a lot of time in mexico before and lecturing and speaking all over the country trying to put forward ideas like the ones in these books. i dabble in politics, but try to stay away from it, and i've read a lot and. but. >> here is the english version to be sold in the united states. here is the spanish-language version to be sold in the united states. finally, here is the version in mexico. why add different cover? >> two reasons. i like the mexican cover for the u.s., but they said it was too somber. the u.s. cover in mexico has an arguable legal status because if you look at it, if you can put it back on, you'll see the

mexican a goal is divided into. this is the center of the mexican flag. you have the top of the eagle at the bottom and the bottom of the bill at the top. in mexico distorting the national emblem and flag is a dubious legal status. so we decided not to restrict. >> go back to the mexican version. >> this is a painting by a person i consider to be mexico's foremost artist. he just finished an extraordinary merrill of the mexican supreme court, and these are six kids who are migrants, about ready to leave for the united states. if you look down at the bottom right-hand corner the license plate on the truck says mit migrants 666.