drives crash all the time, how many of those have a hard drive issue? and that was what i.t. was within and actually monday morning told the deputy i.t. person working with us who didn't that afternoon we were doing briefings, i wasn't but we're doing briefings with congress, got asked the same question, if lois had that problem, did anybody else have a problem? he responded we just learned this morning that the art that .6 it turns out subtract one that failed in february and had two more we found since monday as we're moving through this that this is what we found, we don't know anything about it. ..

so, our goal has been to be transparent and it's been to provide as much information as we can and to try to help this committee get the closure because at some point somebody is going to write a report which i welcomed inside while look at the facts and the recommendations going forward. so at this point it is an important issue and we were concerned as we tracked it down and i'm pleased we were able to

find 24,000 e-mails from that time and i am pleased it is clear that you worked hard and the agency worked hard to restore those e-mails and i'm pleased the white house has reduced all of their documents so that there is not an issue of what might be missing would be any e-mail from that timeframe that would be outside of the agency to pick up the internal issues. any e-mails that she sent out at the accounts would have been found with the production. so i think this is important. it's gotten caught up in the middle of a political storm which has been ongoing ever since the affordable care act that passed in 2010. >> are you concerned that no matter what you say that house republicans are still going to think that you are covering this? >> it will be from the government who thinks given the chance they are going to cover things up. i think in this particular case

the evidence is very clea cleare thought overwhelming that in 2011 before these investigations started, there was no reason to try to detour delete cookies to your hard drive and there was a great effort made to impact or to destroy, there was an effort made to destroy the e-mails got up way that you would do it. there is a federal record. [inaudible] are you taking any look at the irs compliance with the federal records act and disciplinary actions for the employees.

going back to an earlier question how can it be easier to be in searchable. i would ask questions but the federal's aspect and review what is our policy. ouour e-mails as there isn't a system of record. some agencies have more modern systems is a part of the e-mail system. we don't do that. we are still record passed in 1950s. i told people we need to take a look at the en that end of the e system because going forward. at the end of my three and a half years remaining in my term which i would like everybody to know that i'm going to complete

i would like them to be in a position where somebody needed to do a search he would be able to do it relatively efficiently and create the time and effort and financial commitment to respond and we are trying to respond but i understand the frustration. >> thanks very much. the program will continue soon. we've done a wonderful job developing this team and it would surprise people on sunday to come away with at least a tie if not portugal. i was there in 2002 in the first game. we are not at a level yet we are going to win the world cup but as you watch the games they

certainly were competitive with anybody and after you get through the top eight or ten teams, the rest of them look like they are teams that they could pretty well have a good result in. thanks so much. [inaudible conversations] commissioner john koskinen spoke to reporters while congressmen voted on the floor of the department of defense bills. while we wait for the members of the house.

>> you are now recognized for five minutes. ranking member of the committee thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today to provide you with an update. the irs has over the past year made a massive document production in response to the inquiries of congress. in march, the irs invites this committee and the senate finance committee that we had completed the production of productivity to documents as related to their investigation of the processing and review of applications for the tax-exempt status. as the report from the treasury inspector general tax administration. lois lerner for murder at the irs division. this committee and the senate finance committee has now

received more than 770,000 pages of 100 active materials. we will submit another today and you have additional lois lerner e-mails. you already have more than 25,000 e-mails from his lois lerner computer account and more than 5,000 e-mails from other custodians accounts for which ms. lois lerner was an author or recipient. the irs expects as noted earlier in the conversation to complete the production of the remaining e-mails. we have from the e-mail account from the period january 2009 through may of 2013. in addition as it is noted you have 24,000 e-mails from other custodians accounts during the period that the hard drive was crashed for a total of 67,000 e-mails. the irs in february revealed

that the e-mail from the custodial accounts which have indeed limited and limited my search terms that we worked out with investigators and identified the possibility of an issue because the data distribution of the e-mail was not even. it wasn't clear whether the e-mails were overlooked, missing or have other technical issues. the irs information technology professionals identify the documents that indicated that ms. lois lerner experienced a computer failure in 2011 as the congressman noted some of those e-mails had earlier been provided last fall for the committee. in mid-march, 2014 the irs focused on reacting materials for the tax writing committees and processing the rest of the e-mail for the production area as we review additional e-mails, not limited by the search terms, relevant or subject matter in other words, all of her e-mails the irs reviewed additional facts regarding the computer crash in may, 2011 which occurred before these investigations opened or the

report began. we learned in 2011 the information technology division had tried using multiple processes at the request to recover the information stored on the computer's hard drive. a series of e-mails available after all of ms. lois lerner's e-mail recounts the sequencing of the events in the 2011. they reported in an e-mail on july 20, 2011, and i quote, i checked with the technician and he still has your drive. he wanted to exhaust all avenues to recover the data for sendingr sending it to the hard drive cemetery. after receiving assistance from several highly skilled technicians including hp experts come he still cannot recover the data come "-end-double-quote. ms. lois lerner was told on august 12011, and i quote as a last resort we sent the hard drive to the cia, that is the irs, when investigation division for in the cloud to attempt the

data recovery at her request ms. lois lerner was advised, quick, unfortunately the news isn't good the sectors on the harhard drive or bad which madee data unrecoverable. i'm very sorry. everyone involved tried their best. in light of the hard drive issue the irs took multiple steps over the past months to assess the situation and produce as much e-mail as possible for which she was an author or recipient. the traced process for the hearing and relocated and processed and included e-mails from an unrelated to 2011 data collection. we learned the backup tapes are from 2011 and no longer existed because they had been recycled pursuant to the irs normal policy. we searched e-mail from other custodians for material on which she appears as the author were

the recipient. from mid-march until late april the irs review team concentrated on the review all of the remaining e-mails from her account and then repeating the entire process for the quality control and to ensure that no new e-mails are missing. the two and from 82 other custodians. by mid-may as a result of the efforts, the irs identified the e-mails between january 1 to april of 2011. as the search production of the e-mails was concluded, i asked those working on the matter to determine whether the computer systems of the other 80 to 82 custodians had experienced any similar difficulties increasingly as a result of the budget crisis. after the irs report on the e-mail production was deliberate last friday to congress, it was determined earlier this week

actually on monday that seven additional custodians had experienced hard drive failures during the search period. a hard drive failure does not automatically mean that any or all e-mails have been lost or cannot be reconstructed. given the experience broader scope of the effort it isn't surprising that we would discover that some employees had encountered some technical issues especially in light of the agent technology and researcher. as you know the irs described in greater detail in its public report last week that effort to produce e-mails. we are still assessing what effect if any hard drive crashes had on any custodian. at this time it is too early to know if any e-mails have been lost on any of those hard drives. we are continuing to work cooperatively and transparently with you come at the committee and we will continue to provide you with updates. this concludes my testimony and i'd be happy to take your questions. >> well, thank you.

>> i don't think that an apology is owed. there isn't a single e-mail lost since the start of the investigation. every e-mail has been preserved that we have produced orwell produced by the end of this year. >> you don't thin think that tim period between january 2009 in april of 2011 is relevant to this investigation? what w me ask you this the lettr that we received friday the 13th admitted the e-mails were lost for this two and a half your period. >> let me finish. i'm not finished with my question and i will give you an opportunity to answer. you failed to explain the timeline of events that led to that mission and my question to you is from the interviews that we had with the deputy chief of information officer for the irs i'm told a that the irs knew as early as february that her computer crash supposedly caused the loss of her e-mails and the

tim period january 2009 to 2011. have they known since february? >> the irs knew in february there was an issue and as we noted we all had e-mails last fall in which she recited that she had a hard drive crash. >> said in february you knew the e-mails were missing. >> we knew there was a problem because we were looking at it from the standpoint of where, but the timeframe was and what the e-mails appear to come and it appeared that there were not enough e-mails in a timeframe. so why did in the irs notified congress that at that time there was a problem with the potential loss of the e-mails that we were investigating because i thought it was important and it was my decision that w but we completee investigation so that we could fully advise you what the situation was. >> i got a letter from the white house two days ago that says the treasurthis is thetreasury conte house in april of this year to tell them about the lost e-mails. who told the treasury department? who told the treasury department of the letter that i received from the white house says the

treasury told them in april of 2014. , my question is who told the treasury department? >> my understanding only from that letter i have seen which does not say that the e-mails have been lost by understanding of the letter says that someone in the general counsel of the office informed the general counsel office that the treasury there was an issue and the irs was investigating. >> for the treasury was told to the treasury told the white house and we also have a letter from the treasury that says they learned in april of 2014. who told the treasury committee or you know who told the white house? >> i have no idea or no communications. >> you are the head of the irs and you don't know something this important between your agency and executive branch? >> we are part of the executive branch and we have regular communications with treasury. we issue regulations and review them and are in the process of reviewing the regulations on the 501(c)4 issue and have regular

communications between the counsel's office. >> the treasury and the white house knew that at least in april the congress and the american people didn't find out until june. we are purposely not telling us? were you not revealing this to the american people? >> my proposal wasn't in fact. the thought was to complete the e-mail production and complete a review othe review of what other custodians had a problem and produce a report to you laying it all out. >> why did the irs and from the executive branch agency and the executives of the white house and the administration that kept it secret from the office conducting an investigation. >> we were not keeping it secret. it was the public report that provided you this information. there's been no attempt to keep it secret. my position has been that when we provide information which is provided completely. if we provide you incomplete information, people sometimes attempt to weep to the wrong conclusion not based on any facts, so we thought that it would be important to give you the full --

>> it's okay for the white house and the treasury to leap to the conclusion six weeks before the congress but my question also is had there been discussions in the irs about when to reveal this information to congress? >> certainly. >> and obviously these discussions included the treasury? >> note. >> out of the treasury find out about it? >> the treasury i'm not aware of the first time i knew about -- >> i will have a lot of questions to write to you and follow up with you about. completely unacceptable. >> can i answer the question? >> i'm going to move onto anotheon toanother topic. your letter described the lois lerner e-mails as being unrecoverable. >> correct. >> do you know where the actual hard drive is that crashed in 2011? >> the actual hard drive after it was determined it was dysfunctional and the experts knew that no e-mails could be retrieved was recycled and destroyed in the normal process. >> so was it physically destroy? >> that's my understanding.

>> was it melted down and? >> i have no idea what they do with it. this was three years ago. >> do they have a system for tracking items? do they have a tracking system for the items? >> we don't track every item everybody has everywhere but i'm sure that we track some of the items >> does someone have a serial number for the hard drive? tonight i'm just advised that when the hard drive fails the e-mail cannot be constructed and it is turned over to the recyclers. if it was recycled they would have been tracked. if it was recycled government property they would simply walk away with the property from the irs. so i assume there's a tracking system for the disposal of the government. my understanding is that lois lerner continued to be functioning with a new hard drive and it fits with inside. i'm not aware whether the hard drives have identifiers.

>> can we get the serial number of the hard drive and over the other employees whose hard drives e-mails have been lost? 's pick of the ethereal numbers you are welcome to them. >> i want that hard drive and i want a hard drive of every computer that crashed in a timeframe. what i've learned in the last week i think calls into question every document response the irs has given or for that matter failed to get into committee. and the only way that i can see establishing a special prosecutor with the authorities into the powers and the resources needed to uncover the truth. so for the sake of the agency and to restore the trust to the american people what you support the appointment? >> there are six investigations going on -- >> yes or no. can you give a definitive answer to the committee, yes or no do you support the appointment of a special prosecutor? >> i do -- >> [inaudible] >> i'm not controlling the time. i'm asking a question that could have a simple yes or no answer. >> [inaudible]

>> i think -- i think the appointment of a special prosecutor after the ig investigation into this matter ongoing would be a monumental waste of taxpayer funds. >> is that a yes or no? mr. levin is recognized. you have five minutes. >> you know, i think witnesses deserve some respect. i think it's in the tradition of the committee to give witnesses respect. this is not a committee of decades ago led by people who disrespected witnesses.

mr. koskinen, you had a long career. what have you done in the years of your career briefly? >> i'm sorry? >> what would your career have been like? >> it's been 20 years in the private sector turning around large troubled organizations. i started my career as the chief of staff for the senator for four years in the united states senate and i served on a presidential commission as a staff member of the commission and late 1960s. i represented new york city for a year and a half. i was the deputy director for management at the omb for three years. i was the chair of the president's counsel in the year 2,000 for two years guiding the country through the year 2000 20 admission and was asked when the government took over those enterprises to come to the irs, which i did in december when i was confirmed tuesday or the

agencies through these difficult times. >> the letter that went from presidents to mr. camp spell this out and indicated and when the treasury was notified were in the treasury informed the white house counsel about this process with computer it also has indicated, contrary to this effort on the committee and the republican side to connect the problems and there were serious problems with the white house that there is no such connection. they are desperate to find a connection. they've never found it that they will keep looking because i think it makes sense for them politically.

i don't think whatever political affiliations are we should be disrespectful. so, will you repeat again what happened in these last months after you found out about the computer crash and why you decided to conduct yourself the way you do it? >> we learned in february that there was a potential issue with the hard drive. that was investigated in march and early april they had uncovered the e-mails and you can see they talked about the efforts to restore. those e-mails had been provided to the committee said they were not getting covered up. we told people that decided they were going to look at all of the other custodians to produce as many e-mails as we could that were in fact within our system which is the 24th house and. i also asked that we review all of the 82 custodians to see what

if anything happened then. our plan is that when we could produce complete the production of all of the lowes lois lerner e-mails we would know what the situation was because there's been a question on why i didn't advise the congress earlier and my experiences we do better to have a rational discussion when you know all of the facts. we were advised on monday morning that there were primary indications and that there were difficulties when a handful of custodians. that information was passed onto thonto the staff of the committn monday afternoon. immediately thereafter rather than asking for additional information the press release went out for this committee identifying as a particularly interesting person of the committee and stating that the e-mails have been lost. had the committee waited to issue that release until we knew further information was continuing to arrive and they would have discovered that the cold have two computers. her office computer that she used during the day, and she had

a travel computer on a portable computer that crashed. it ran on the same e-mail system has her office system. so it turns out there is no indication that a single e-mail has been lost notwithstanding the press release and statements out of this committee. so those press releases were with regards to nicole inaccurate and misleading and it demonstrates why we would provide this committee the full report of the studio review when it is completed. we are not going to gerbil out the information and have it played out in the press. >> mr. johnson is recognized. >> thank you mr. chairman for holding this hearing. learning about the loss of lois lerner's e-mails and other officials are struggling and we received that information with great skepticism. americans have been waiting for the whole truth and we hope to get it today. it doesn't sound like we are getting it. it's past time to hold all of those responsible for targeting

americans for their beliefs. mr. commissioner, welcome. i have some questions for you. you have argued that the practice of east riding employee e-mails after six months with a cost-cutting measure in fiscal year 2011 the irs enacted the budget were $12 billion of the high watermark of spending. can you tell me whether they were engaged in the policy of af destroying and reusing it back up case? >> what happened. the retention policy was only less than three months. in 2008 he increased the retention backup policy to six months. it's a disaster recovery systems of the entire system goes down you can reconstitute the e-mail. those systems actually are used and then if there is no disaster you continue to produce and to

back up the e-mail so they are available. i would note as i did in my testimony since the start of this investigation that every e-mail has been preserved. nothing has been lost. nothing has been the stride. given the irs investigate the fr storing those would only cost $200,000 annually? >> $200,000 annually but if it grows we have trillions now, hundreds of millions of e-mails stored over six months and the disaster recovery program at the e-mail system and i just learned is not a system of record. the system of record is in fact the records act to produce hard copies and file those in the records. the irs has historically restored backup takes for six

months. when we get through with this we need to look at what we can do to create a searchable e-mail process. the problem right now is anytime anybody want a piece of information we have 90,000 employees and whatever employee we want to have to pull their e-mail accounts and hard drives and then we have to take them and loaded them into a search machine to be able to discover what is in them. that is an antiquated system and i finally revert to the it system as a model t. with a very nice gps system and a sound system, but it's still a model t.. >> my constituency and i refuse to accept that in years of the record high budget you wouldn't let us refuse to give you information on our tax returns. the irs and the story employee e-mails every six months just to save 200,000 annually. far too familiar with their

wasteful spending of the irs during that time. to date the committee has uncovered wasteful spending from the star trek videos to the spending on lavish conferences to an irs estimated 23.5 million in spending on salary and benefits due to the union time and bonus is going to workers that hold back taxes. mr. commissioner, you and i both know the failure to backup employee e-mails began long before any of the budget cuts happened to that agency. there's simply no excuse for what happened and i yield back. >> mr. mcdermott is recognized for five minutes. >> thank you, mr. chairman. today we are here listening to a myth that there was a conspiracy by is lois lerner and whoever else to get rid of some data. and before i came to congress, i

was in the position -- one of the things that you always did is take the history. and so i would like to review the history with you again, mr. koskinen. on june 13, 2011, lois lerner's hard drive failed in all of her e-mails were lost at that point; is that true? >> that's correct. >> 16 days later she was briefed that inappropriate criteria had been used in mismanagement and cincinnati according to the ig report; is that true? ..

>> in all the e-mails that have been collected is there any evidence to suggest that she called the white house or the white house called her and said, get those right wing organizations? >> there is none that we've been able to produce and understand although i've not seen the production from the white house that the white house did not find any e-mail to or from lois lerner. >> the ig didn't find any? >> i understand his report states that the evidence of political involvement. >> in fact as you talked about, on july 19, 2011, lerner wrote

to the field director of customer service support for information technology saying whatever you can do is helpful, would be greatly appreciated. now, in mid-july 2011 she learned about cincinnati. and for a couple of weeks the i.t. division tried to repair her hard drive, bringing in experts inside i.t. and also the forensic division of the irs, is that correct? >> that's correct. >> and they failed? >> they failed after three weeks of efforts. the e-mail trail was clear that i would note as i did it my full testimony the criminal investigation division is expert in seizures from come in civil and criminal cases seizing hard drives and restoring e-mail. so we had at the time with confidence if you could find those e-mails, they would find

them. and they were unsuccessful. >> finally she wrote, thanks for your efforts to them that i really do appreciate the effort. sometimes stuff happens. is this a woman we choice in over losing her hard drive and saying thank god that thing is gone? they will never get me? no. a woman who is resigned really to the fact that the thing is lost. in my office, we just upgraded. we upgraded to windows 10, in 2010. and my staff director at washington state lost her hard drive. they friday. i don't know how it happened. nobody knows how it happened. she lost all her records. she did not rejoice over that experience, i can tell you. but then we come fast for two favorite 24th, 2014, and chairman camp asked for all, and emphasize all those e-mails.

the committee will resume. mr. reid is recognized. >> thank you, mr. chairman. thank you, commissioner, for being here today. and thank you for allowing us to go vote and come back and continue the hearing, mr. chairman. this is a really important issue. obviously. and now here the loss of some critical e-mails to me is something that i don't understand how that could happen him why that could happen, but i want to get to the bottom of it as much as possible. one of the things i found in your testimony that was intriguing was the actual referral of lois lerner's hard drive, and how she went about to try to recover quote-unquote these e-mails. so my understand is that she asked the i.t. representative, my hard drive failed, there's a

problem with it, can you take a look at it. that makes sense to me. but then there's another step. there's a step or it was referred to your criminal investigation department, your forensic experts in the irs. those are the folks that are well-trained in the air of criminal investigations and these are top notch forensic people, correct? >> correct. >> okay. so there's about 11 day, maybe 12 days like july 20 where the technician, the i.t. guy goes to lois lerner supposedly to lois lerner supposedly and says we can't do anything about it and then all of a sudden she told about 12 days later as a last resort were sending your hard drive to the ci, the criminal investigation irs division for the forensic lab. who was involved in any of those decision makings that you're aware of during the third of time to send it to the forensic lab? >> i don't know any of the names

of people caused it to go there. as i noted in my testimony, it's an extra in her step in the sense normally if a hard drive is the retrievable it would simply be destroyed. >> that's my question because you are referencing your testament is an extraordinary effort and to we deal with a hard drive situation for three years from three years ago, and yet there's an extraordinary step taken to senate to the forensic laboratory interest into who made that decision, why the decision was made and also the follow-up questions in writing so -- >> that would be fin fine but my understanding to some e-mails that end that, it was reflection of ms. lerner's strong attempt to try to recover e-mail. >> you think ms. lerner is what you asked it to go to the criminal investigation and? >> i don't know whether she was not. i wish of pushing very hard to get the e-mails. on occasion criminal investigation would be the but it's an extraordinary step because as you note they are very good at this.

there's been a most of the time with speed and i know i am running on limited time. on the fringe, these are the well-trained people. when i've ever dealt with criminal investigations, people like david reichert, police officer, there's reports that they go through. have you seen reports that the criminal investigation forensic report people provided as they did their review of lois lerner's hard drive? >> i have not. >> are there any reports that exists that the criminal invested passionate investigation forensic unit would have? >> i don't know. >> do they typically? they are your criminal investigators. you referred this matter three years ago supposedly to the criminal investigation unit to be complete forensic. these are the guys that we watch on tv. >> that's right. >> also they're doing an investigation as to why this hard drive failed is my understanding. isn't that correct? >> there are any number of reason us what a drive fails.

they would dash mess option would be they wouldn't care why it failed to the art, the request was -- >> no, no, no. they are criminal investigators but if there's malfeasance -- >> also several investigators. >> criminal too designed to catch criminals. they are trying to figure out what criminal behavior potentially, if i get a referral, if you send a hard drive for criminal investigator in the ir irs mindset is a lookg for illegal activity. did somebody potentially damage this hard drive on purpose? what caused the damage? isn't something they would do in normal course of business? >> they all did civil cases. all of our civil prosecutions and cases are investigated by -- >> would you agree the criminal investors are looking for criminal activity and if someone is trying to hide evidence, destroyed evidence that is relevant to a tax receding that they are the guys who look into the forensics of the computer program to figure out what's going on? >> they will do that on occasion. there's no indication they were doing anything other than -- >> they receive this hard drive

on something as critical as this. that's what i'm asking this question. very interested in a what those forensic folks, who they were -- do you know who they were? >> i don't who they were. >> who they were, when they completed it, the documentation for chain of evidence purposes that they evidence purposes that they're trendy but i would like to know what those records are and have them provided to our office. i guess my time has expired. without i yield. >> that's fine. >> thank you. >> visteon is recognized. >> mr. commissioner, -- mr. young is recognized. >> you mention a number of times today that the irs learned of certain things at certain periods of time, that perhaps even your office learned of certain things in different periods of time. i'd like to know, and you correct me if you've only spoken to this, when you knew personally as commissioner of the irs, when you knew that we had a problem, the e-mails were lost or destroyed, that that

constituted a larger issue and so forth. >> when i first was devised about it we did know whether any e-mails have been lost or destroyed. but in february speech when we first advised of it, just so i'm clear? >> in february i was advised there was an issue with her e-mails, and subsequently in the same time i was advised about that and there was evidence that they been a hard drive crash but nobody knew what the implications of that were in terms of whether any enough said the loss or whether the hard drive had been recovered but all i knew was advised and if edward was that there was an issue with the initial production review of e-mails once we've started looking at all of her e-mails, and that there was a hard drive crash and we need to investigate what that meant. that's what preceded going forward by mid-march, we are determined, found the fact that there've been an attempt to constitute a hard drive

unsuccessfully, then started reprocessing all of her enough to make sure that when i missing and reprocessing all of the custodial enough to see what e-mails of ms. lerner's were unavailable. >> okay. so you thought it was presumably premature at that point, given the opportunity offer all the context you wanted to. premature to notify this committee or anyone else of your knowledge, personal knowledge? >> might approach was we needed to know, a., what this meant, what they been the result and bill dudley with e-mail if anyone failed and what e-mails we could find which were not available. we gave a fulsome report that would be more productive and, in fact, that's been my normal -- >> and others have spoken to the fulsome nest of that report so i won't get into that. we've invoke the federal record-keeping act. you can result in voted on at least one occasion, federal records act that requires agencies to store and preserve certain documents are applied to

the irs change its document retention policy in may of 2013, the same month lois lerner announced this targeting initiative? >> irs, i wasn't about my understanding they changed their document retention policy in may in response to this investigation. in other words, once the investigation started, the instructions went out to save all e-mails of everyone, that we would no longer recycle them every six months, that we would, in fact, -- nothing was changed. >> please expend why the irs did not instead -- please explain why the irs do not instead change its document retention policy when tigta initiated its investigation and started working with the irs whereupon it presumably became clear that there was a document retention problem. >> i wasn't there, and started the tigta but if we don't there is no evidence at this point we

know of that any e-mails were lost after that point in time. time. >> okay. >> i would stress as i've noted several times the final request i made was to review all custodians and that process has been going on, we got it inefficient of those this weekend we are reviewing that and will share all of that information with you as well. >> okay. it's my understanding that ms. low, the new head of the tax exempt and government entities division has resumed audits of 501(c)(4) organizations that were selected for examination during the targeting and due to political activity. these audits were suspended after the acting commissioner warfel express concerns they may have been tainted by targeting. given these concerns and evidence lois lerner improperly influence the audit selection of right wing group and why would the irs choose to reopen these audits the?

they were actually left as painting is my decision that those organizations deserve the right to get the closure on that. we made it clear to them that whatever kuester documentation in the past which may or may not have been overreaching would not apply. we would do this in a straightforward way. my that was it was important to let them know that they could get to closure. we expect that we will. >> but these groups were targeted, we now know, and resumed audits among a body of different groups that may have been improperly targeted, and that seems not only counterintuitive but certainly televised. >> if you could answer briefly. >> to the extent that an audit had begun it seemed to me better for them and better for the process to close those so there was no implication that we completed the audit they might've actually been decertified or had a problem.

so we are moving toward closure and we don't have any reason to assume that they won't all be cleared and that they will be able to operate properly. >> thank you, sir. >> mr. kelly. >> thank you for having him. good to see you again. we had about an hour's conversation earlier this week. the one thing we both agreed on is that i believe there's almost irreparable damage done to the agency, and the process continues to unwind, makes it harder for the american people. i'm talking about average everyday people who are held to an entirely different set of standards when it comes to what the irs means for them, document, information they need to keep for a long, long time. and when you're on the other side of the table you are not allowed to say, my hard drive crashed, you know this stuff goes. i just can't get to it. but one of the things i think that really makes this important, this is nothing to do with the irs by the way and you and i agreed on that tuesday. but we do agree on is that they

didn't the irreparable damage come and kind of building back again what he went off a couple hundred years but if you go back to i think daniel webster and chief justice marshall. they say the power to tax is the power to destroy. so for over two inches this has been in the back of peoples peos minds. i sat in the private sector and watched the irs coming. there's nothing more chilling than to get that letter or that call or that visit because you know right away it's going to be a tough day for you. now, whether people actually do that or not is another question. it's what people believe because perception israeli. israeli. i would yo just say to you on t. the only thing i look at -- perception is reality. we knew well investments learners e-mails were not going to be available. years ago we knew they weren't going to be available at a think the thing that bothers people on the committee is that we are told you will get everything, just give us a little more time. just give us a little more time.

how much more time do you think not just this committee but the american people can withstand? i think we've reached a point where they are exhausted of waiting. is not an indictment of you because i think you're trying to do the right thing, but the agency right now is tainted. and it's kind of reaffirmed what most of us believe that we are guilty until we prove ourselves innocent but in this case of looking at this information. i can understand why, with all the knowledge we knew going back as far as 2011 that this stuff was a retrievable until ms. leonard results of sort, can't get it for you. as a last resort we sent your hard drive to ci, cruel investigation forensic lab to attempted data recovery. on august 2011 after three weeks of attempt to retrieve her e-mails, ms. lerner was but, unfortunately, the news is not good. the sectors on hard drive were bad which major data

unrecoverable. i'm sorry to anyone tried to do the best. the irs new this. you see where i'm coming from the if you knew it so long ago why is it so difficult to just tell people the truth? not make using you but this is a very dangerous slope we're on. when do we tell the american people the truth? that truthfully right now we're not going to get an answer to what you're asking us. i just don't get it. what is the strategy as you move forward? how do you restore the faith and confidence of the people of the united states in this agency and in this body? we've all taken an oath to defend the constitution and yet there are two sets of rules. one for the general public, one for your agency. general public is not allowed to keep that record. general public is not allowed to have hard drives crash. the general public is not allowed to do some of the same things we've allowed the agency to do, which they don't

understand. i can going back to our conversation on tuesday, where do you see this going because i does the upright into this anywhere along the way. at the very least it's going to come out of that some of people knew about this but refuse to be forthcoming about it. that's the best you can do in this. >> record should note that no one knew in the irs about this at the time we've been working on and to actually in february discovered it at the e-mails involved in fact are provided to skimming along the way a normal production and nobody -- >> no, no, no. that's not too. you knew in august, not you because you are there. the agency knew in august when leavitt they could retrieve this information yet we were told will get you everything. and the fact you have been forthcoming, not you but your agency as to the dilemma that now we face. we have reinforce the people's greatest fear that the irs is working with a completely different set of rules than the general public. people's constitutional rights

been violated that we've chosen to turn a blind eye and a deaf ear to the american people and have continued to stonewall them hoping that somehow we can run out the clock. this is not a partisan issue. this is bipartisan and i don't to anybody say about an election but is it about an election? i was the it is but it's not the way they ended. i appreciate you being you. i admire what you're trying to do. i've got to tell you this is a long uphill climb to restore faith and confidence the american people have to have because -- >> the gentleman's time has expired. spin they don't trust us as much as they used to. >> mr. griffin. >> thank you, mr. chairman. thank you, commissioner, for being here. i just want to follow up on a few of the issues. when asked by my colleagues why the timing of the disclosure regarding the hard drives june as opposed to me or april or march or earlier, you indicated

that you thought it made sense to just wait and see you got all the information or did your analysis, or what have you and sort of want to do all that figured out, then let us know. i would just tell you having been a council on the house government reform committee, having served on this committee, having served in the white house and the department of justice, i wouldn't take that approach anymore. that's not the way this city works. when you know and anyone at the irs -- in fact i would say you were deserved by the legislative folks at the irs, if they did not tell you when you started, they should've walked in and said, this is a hot topic. there are numerous hearings on the hill. senators and members of congress, particularly the ways and means committee, is going to want to know what's going on

with this lois lerner situation. by the way, we have some hard drive problems and we never told anybody. let's not wait. it's in everybody's interest to tell the hill. i know about the 770,000 documents and all that stuff. i used to be the guy on the house government reform committee who on a friday night got a box, got 10 boxes from the white house in the late '90s. i was the guy who actually went through those thousands. i can tell you the numbers are misleading. it is you get a bunch of blank sheets, a bunch of nothingness, not a lot of substance they're usually. yes, i understand your producing them, a bunch of them, but the number in and of itself doesn't tell you a lot. but the bottom line is i would have just, i would approach this committee differently, and if they do get a different response for talented because people here feel like they need to know and they wanted to be a

conversation. they don't want it to be a situation, and i know how this works, where the left folks say of the white house as don't answer that unless they ask you specifically. if they don't ask the right question, don't give them that answer. i can tell you that happens all the time. and i know for a fact that it happened to one of my colleague here who is telling me earlier, not necessarily with you but with someone else. i'll give an example. so you interviewed in march of this year in a fellow committee and were interviewed by dr. boustany and there were numerous times when asked about the lois lerner e-mails. and you would say things like, we're going to produce them, we are working on reduction, we are looking at this, looking at that. there was never one mention of an issue as you describe it. never one mention of a glitch.

and you know with all due respect, my daughter is here with me this week. that's like when she, i don't ask the right questions about what she ate, and then i find out that she ate a box of cookies, and she didn't tell me because i didn't ask the right question but she didn't tell me because she knew i would be mad. and i think you had numerous opportunities in these transcripts to just say, hey, we'll get you all the e-mails we have but i want you to know, we've got some problems, and you should know about the hard drive. and could never happen. we face this was lois lerner when we asked about the (c)(4)s. we never asked them the precise right questions so we never got our answer. i know how that game is played. i've been up here long enough and i'm saying if you want to get a different attitude from this committee, go ahead and share what the political people are telling not to share. just tell us. just tell us, share it, and if

it's for plus it, we will ignore. one more thing, to have a question. you know if anyone in the irs has gone before a grand jury on this issue or do know of any grand jury subpoenas that have been issued on this investigation? >> i know of none. >> nine whatsoever. do you know of the department of justice investigation on this at all, criminal investigation? >> i don't have anything about that investigation. i got into the with anybody's investigation. >> thank you spent thank you. mr. renacci. >> thank you, mr. chairman. thank you, commissioner, for being here and thank you for sticking around. just a couple of things to try to wrap up some things i heard. you testified earlier that three to 5% as a normal crash rate for hard drives. >> that's what i'm advised. >> there were 82 irs employees with some potential political role in political targeting, seven hard drives filled. that's approximately 9%. can you get me some information as to what the normal crash rate

is for the irs computers? >> be delighted to get the. i'm advised what you get outside the were defeated the failure rate goes to 10 to 60% but we will get you that information. >> i appreciate that. the other thing that concern me based on what i'm hearing today is that there was a hard drive failure. it was realize. is being investigated, at some point in time someone said we can't get the information off of it. and then it was destroyed. is that a normal process to destroy, special in the of an investigation to destroy a hard drive? >> i would stress again that hard drive was never destroyed during the investigation. nothing has been destroyed during this investigation. that hard drive was destroyed three years ago after it was a retrievable in terms of e-mail and it had nothing to do with this investigation. -- after it was irretrievable but i would also tell you i've practice in front of the irs for about 25 years as a cpa. i've had come off as a very unusual. i will tell you, had some

information that wasn't around, had the hard drives lost, had a lot of things occurred and had to listen to the irs say to them, why did you destroy, even though you weren't being audited back then, why would you destroy something that has information that might be needed? i know you talked about the three years and the 10 years but have also seen the irs bring a guy down on his knees in tears because they said we are going to prosecute you to the full extent of the law because you don't have the proper information. now, when did the standard change that the individual that you are auditing has to do certain things but the irs doesn't have to keep information or have to keep hard drives are have to make sure that their documentation is a? >> as the record will note from all the indication we have missed longer worked very hard in the i.t. department worked very hard to restore that information, not to lose it. >> i understand that, but when

did it change that it would be a destruction of a document which is a hard drive, knowing that it could potentially, there's data onto that might be needed speak with nobody at the time use the data as being related to an investigation. as a general matter if an employee's hard drive fails and information cannot be retrieved, it is recycled and destroyed. >> i will also to you that it's interesting how you answer those questions. in your answers, i think you've heard people saying we have to restore trust to the american people. your answers probably should be that we're going to make sure that we look at our processes in the future. i wasn't here three years ago, and we're going to make sure we are not destroying hard drives until we fully know that they're not going to be an issue for the future. that would be what something i think the american people would rather hear and, well, it was destroyed, especially in this situation that we have today.

>> it's a very good suggestion. .. >> i can tell you from past history that doesn't happen and in many cases i not going to tell you in all cases because you do have employees but in some cases i've seen them prosecute three full extent of

the law that isn't clear when an individual says i don't have it, i've lost it, i don't have the ability to get it and i don't have other information to bring it together. this is all about the american people and of them having an opportunity to get some full space back in the irs but at the same time how are they ever going to do that when you stand there and say we didn't do anything wrong. yet when the other side when the taxpayers it in front of you and says i don't have the information. they are always prosecuted to the full extent of the law. >> thank you very much. with that of the hearing is now adjourned.

[inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations]

[inaudible conversations]

[inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] wrapping up a long conversation with the representative area just a reminder that if you missed any of this hearing you can watch at any time at c-span.org. also we will re- air the program

at eat eastern. mr. koskinen spoke to reporters for a lengthy time during an earlier break due to house votes and you will be able to see that on the airing as well. he will be getting your thoughts on those missing irs e-mails on facebook ryan writes the e-mails are missing. anyone that knows how to start a laptop knows that. on the twitter the conversation

is #c-spanchat. next we are going to the second of the freedom coalition holding their annual conference. on your screen is herman cain, the businessman and former republican presidential candidate. he heard earlier today from rick santorum and michele bachmann and kevin mccarthy will address the group later on. right here live on c-span2. >> stay informed because the mainstream media is complicit in the cover-up and in the denial and the overlooking of information for the american people. post people don't even know that we are in as bad of a position as we are in. because you're not going to hear on the 6:00 or the 7:00 news that only 58% of the registered voters voted in the last

presidential election. the mainstream media says a record? what about the 42% of stay-at-home? i have even heard people say i don't vote because i don't know what's going on and i say good. [laughter] stupid people are ruining america and i'm glad some of them stay home. a [applause] those of us are infirm hav thate to help both the stupid people. [applause] and you have got to become ambassadors of intelligence. ambassadors of information. so number one, stay informed. stay informed. if you get a chance to talk to a

liberal over the weekend, let me give you a couple statistics. i said if terri did remember liberals don't like facts. they can't handle the facts. but i enjoi enjoy getting into e discussions and remember you come up with some of your favorite facts. let me give you a couple i talk about on the radio show this morning. the most recent survey has shown after surveying over 3,000 counties across the country and thousands of consumers that for 2013 up until now the average increase in health insurance premiums 49%. coming soon to a health-insurance premiums near you. that doesn't count what's going to happen in 2014 on top of the 49%. ask the liberals to try to defend that. it's indefensible. 49%.

the first thing i would encourage you to do is to stay informed. too many people stay home that could vote. every vote counts. every vote counts. i hate when somebody says to me my vote doesn't count. back in 2012 some of you all will remember because you were involved that romney won over rick santorum by eight votes. eight. i could have brought all of my y relatives and we would have had more than eight. eight votes. in 2000 remember the big controversy over the hanging chads in florida bush finally one after 6 million votes were cast in florida i 537 votes.

every vote counts. in 1994 the district in connecticut was decided by 21 votes. in 1984 in the eighth congressional district of indiana, it was decided by four votes. every vote counts. so my first message to you is stay informed. if you get an opportunity to convince people that vote count, use those stats. if you get into a discussion and people really don't know how bad it is, just tell us it is a crisis and then start delineating the list.

secondly, grandpa always told me how much time i have and then i ignore him. [laughter] [applause] if they start throwing tomatoes and onions at me i'm off the stage. stay involved. you are here because you are involved. the minute that you work in the party politics, that is good. many of you support your favorite candidate. that is a good thing. many of you are involved in the teen party command of the liberals and the democrats are trying to make you feel ashamed about being in the tea party, when you should be proud to be a part of the teeth are a movement in america. [applause] the tea party is an attitude. let me tell you what the tea party attitude is. less government, less taxes and more innovative response ability and live by the constitution. that's what it is. what's wrong with that? [applause] i'm not mad at y'all, you know

that. so i encourage you to stay involved. don't be intimidated and not stand involved in taking back our country. thirdly, and finally, ralph -- [laughter] -- stay inspired. you see, the liberals want you to believe that we cannot take this country back. the drama that drove me over here was as well as doing my radio show remotely. he said what do you think about obamacare? i said it sucks. [applause] he said do you think anything will be done about it? yes. he said what? i said it's called repeal and replace. they want you to believe that it can't be repealed and replaced, and i have to tell you there is someone by the name of tom price

in georgia that for a very good solution on the table that most people never heard of. there are solutions out there better than that, and that's part of our challenge which is why we ought to focus on the november 2014. so stay inspired. believe in tomorrow. if you stay informed. how many grandparents are in here today? raise your hands. grandparents, i am one also. we are trying to prepare our grandkids. we are helping our kids prepare our grandkids for the future. but we've got another challenge. we've got to make sure that the future is they are when they get there. grandparents, young people, conservatives all over this country. so we have a dual responsibili

responsibility. that's why you come to these so that you can learn something. you've got to stay involved. it's no longer a spectator spo sport. that's why i ran for president because i was called to run. are you going to run again? and i remind them that our currency says in god we trust. so it's natural in god i trust. liberals don't understand that. they go crazy when you refer to the bible or refer to your faith. i'm going to continue to stand and refer to my face whenever i get an opportunity, which is why i applaud you for attending the faith and freedom conference here in washington, d.c..

let me leave you with these words. [laughter] i closed my ipad. [laughter] i speak at a lot of colleges and universities. and i recently spoke at morehouse college and the event was sponsored by the college republicans at a predominantly black school. he wrote a column. i later spoke to on the website. and he ended with something i've

been using ever since as a reminder into greatness of the country that is america is a place that defeats mike myers is defeats the american dream. that is the america that we are fighting for, folks. stay informed. stay involved. stay involved and stay in the fight that takes back our country. thank you very much. [applause] herman cain. [applause] i have a leg up on some of you because as you know he is on the

am blowtorch in atlanta and i get to listen to this guy every morning on my way to work. he's a great treasure but we really enjoy having him in atlanta. it is my great privilege to bring to the podium the newly elected majority kevin mccarthy represents the 23rd district in california. he was first elected in 2006. and incidentally in most recent congressional scorecard, he has scored 100% on the issues that we score. [applause] he started a small business before he reached the age of 21. when he sold the business he used the funds to pay for his own college and graduate education. and as he was running that

delhi, and that is the business, that's when he first encountered an overreach that made it hard for him to run his business and create jobs and that's why he is in politics today. before being elected to the california assembly he then got elected to the congress as i said he was chosen by his colleagues to be the majority whip iwent in the house after t0 elections and i guess it was yesterday he was elected the majority leader said to give up on california yet. there are still some good things coming from california. and at the top of the list is our next speaker. we are looking forward to working with him in his new capacity. please give a warm welcome to the congressman kevin mccarthy. [applause]

thank you very much. you are very kind. yesterday was a big day. you can understand where i come from. i'm the grandson of a cattle rancher, the son of a firefighter and i had the opportunity to run for the majority leader. only in america do we have this. [applause] i wanted to start the way i started my acceptance speech. i want to thank my lord and savior for his grace and strength and for never leaving me. whatever we face in the future in this job and in this country, i know that he will even be stronger. i am not the ashamed to say that i am proud to be a christian.

[applause] i want to tell you a little bit about my life. i'm not an attorney. i didn't set out to run for office. if you know this town it was in the central valley of californ california. it's like many towns across america. neighbors, they work hard and play by the rules and they expect others to do the same. the lessons i learned ther there identified by talking. i learned by listening. it's a town that doesn't rate of success by your wealth but more by your community and your faith. while, i'm the youngest in my family. i got out of high school, i didn't apply myself well in the scholarship that folks didn't have great wealth. my father was a firefighter and he moved furniture on his days

off. i went to my local junior college and i took a summer job and i saved my money. i started buying cars and selling them to pay my way through college. i found how to later it was illegal, but i didn't know. and one friday night i was going to visit some friends at a college and i stopped at the grocery store and the lottery just started and i bought a ticket and i won the lottery. so i took this money, i took my folks to the nicest restaurant in town. do you ever walk into a place you've never been and feel uncomfortable? but i had the money so we ate everything on the menu. my brothers to order dessert just to make the prices higher. i gave my brother and sister each hundred dollars and invested the rest of the money in one stock because a unique ani deletedtaking risks. i believe if i was successful, i didn't want the government to take all of my profits, but if i failed i didn't want the government to bail me out either.

and that semester i told my folks i wasn't going to go back to college. so i took my money out of the market. i refinanced my car and i went out to try to buy a franchise but no one would sell me one. so you know what i get? i created my own. a delhi. my father and i even go to the counter in order roger and we did pretty well. we had all of the struggles of a small business. first work in the first to leave and the last beat paid and the regulations came out we were successful. we now had enough money that i could pay my way through college without working. and no one has finished college at mit malaise and i figured you know what, i sold my business. when i was going to college there was an article in the paper that says be a summer intern in washington, d.c. and i thought i don't know this man but how lucky he would be to have me write? so i applied and he turned me down. i now hold the seat and i couldn't get an internship. [applause]

i feel very blessed. i married my high school sweetheart and we have two kids. we know the struggles you go through just like everybody else in america. i am fortunate enough that my constituents granted me the power to represent them and i go to work inside washington. i go home every week and i sleep on the couch inside the office. i don't want to become washington. i want the county to become washington. they asked me yesterday what would you do differently as the majority leader? we will have the courage to lead and the wisdom to listen. so if you are ever in a i. want you to come by the office.

because in spite of my office i have a friend of mine have you ever heard of steve finley? sixteen behind my desk and the other is ronald reagan. there is many times you ponder and wonder what would these great leaders advise for me today for america and all of us? i thought for a moment and there were three things lincoln would tell us. the first thing is believed in exceptionalism of the country. and i think one of the places you can look to the gettysburg address you all know the gettysburg address fourscore seven years ago today. they brought forth a new nation conceived in liberty and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal. you read through and he says that if we fail, the government

of the people, by the people, for the people shall perish from earth. we were not the strongest nation at the time but he said we are different than others. we are dedication to be dedicated and everyonthesededicl but if we fail at this they cannot solve the problem. only us. you are on the greatest country on the face of the earth. think how powerful this statement is from someone that isn't an american and as the president of another country saying that. i said thank you. i'm very proud. ththe president said you know where your greatness comes from? isn'it isn't what you take thatt you give.

you give the sacrifice of lengths of another country can have freedom and freedom becomes human rights and an economy. i paused for a moment and i thought think about it since we became the world leader after world war ii has there ever been another world war? there's been conflict but not another world war. there's never been another country or society like ours and we shouldn't be ashamed of that. we should leave with that. in those few short months the seven states leave the union and never once have i ever heard him say that it was buchanan's fault. have you? he would say take where you are

today and walk forward and find solutions. the future is brighter than what you leave behind you. i think the third piece of advice would be do not leave the tough decisions for the future generation. and in the house we have a big problem. the government grows it breaks the family. the government family should become stronger. if you think about it, the whole debate of slavery was taken during the creation of the country but it was controversi controversial. the debt that we have around us and the government that we have we should not ignore the tough

decisions. we should leave and make decisions. when i look across and i see this quickly because i know i'm low on time, ronald reagan smiling and i want to remind you all he's from california and conservative as well. ronald reagan's titles and he is thinking today was what the advice be for the current president. when ronald reagan ran come and think about the time in which he ran come it was the last time an american u.s. ambassador was killed since jimmy carter. the current president is making jimmy carter look good. have you seen him on tv a couple times to a? he's just now coming back. ronald reagan is running, americans were held hostage to the soviet union entered afghanistan. the president's response wasn't to go to the olympics to win more gold metals but he said we

will defeat the soviet union. all of the press comes to him and says you have to have a plan and have it all written out. how could you defeat the soviet union and you know what he said blacks for simple words. we win, they lose. they believe that america relieved it come and they won. those four little pieces would go a long way today. i want to leave you with this: i know we are frustrated. i hear that message and i want to pledge this one item to you that i said in the conference. we will unite, we will have the courage to lead and the wisdom to listen and we will turn this country back around. thank you very much and god bless. [applause]

ladies and gentlemen, please help me welcome to the stage the united states congressman from georgia, tom price. [applause] >> good afternoon. don't all leave at once. it's great to be with you. god bless you. it's wonderful to be back with you. they had great messages and it's an honor to be able to share a few words with you. i want to start with a quote by daniel webster who said at one time hold fast to the constitution of the united states and the republic for which it stands. miracles do not cluster. and what has happened once in

6,000 user6,000 years is not lio happen again soon. pretty amazing quote when you dissect it. he was saying that america is a very, very special place and it's special for so many reasons but especially because we recognize that our liberty and our freedom doesn't come from the government, it comes from god almighty. [applause] he was also saying hard work leaves before us in the preservation of that special place. i can't tell you how inspiring it is for me to be able to join a group of folks just like you that share the energy and optimism of the future and who are dedicated to doing the hard work necessary to make it a bright and prosperous one so thank you for all of the work that you do day in and day out. what makes your attendance here at the commitment to the pencils of limited government and individual freedom over more

inspiring is that it's pretty easy to be cynical these days, isn't it? if you think about it a border fiasco and human tragedy down on our southern border as a direct result of the policies of this administration and their friends in congress. the situation in iraq, the failure to achieve the status of forces agreement with reckless disregard for the loss of blood and treasure of great americans. a direct result of the policy of this administration and their friends in congress. negotiating with terrorists for three or five taliban members and thereby increasing the risk to our country and putting all americans serving or traveling abroad in great jeopardy. a direct result of the policies of this administration and their friends in congress. the va scandal that isn't just about scheduling. as a physician i can tell you

that. pour salt into the wounds of the brave men and women that have served in harms way. the scandal that not only targets conservative groups that identifies financial supporters of the groups and then target them for auditing. chilling stuff. a direct result of the policies of this administration and their friends in congress. and these don't even touch on to economy or slowest employment recovery rate in any known recession. the highest child poverty rate in two decades, the disaster of healthcare law that is killing quality healthcare in this country. an energy policy that ignores the blessings we have been given and subjects every single decision to base politics all as a result of the direct policies of this administration and their democratic friends in the united states congress. you still with me? yet we know that history teaches

us that in america the future is ours to own if we have the courage of our convictions and the strength to see them through and i know that you share that our nation has been in situations of great calamity and consequences before and we have weathered the storms. through our history we have sought solace and strength in our face when we are facing an unknown or an uncertain future. from the beginning our founders saw the link between our faith and our freedom. the declaration of independence declared that the citizens of the great land are in doubt by their creator with certain unalienable rights. thomas jefferson asked him the liberty of a nation be secure when we have removed their only basis a conviction in mind of the people that these liberties are the gift and 150 years later on the eve of d-day a moment in

time when the religious freedom in the globe hung on the balanced by eisenhower said that us all beseech the blessing of the almighty god upon this great and noble undertaking. ththethe challenges that demanda noble undertaking today may seem smaller compared to the existential threats posed by a march of armiethemarch of armiee that there is never a time when the threat of freedom is too small to ignore or when faith is not an ally to our struggles. we have never believed in our response abilities to protect liberty. remember freedom is never more than just one generation away from extinction. we have to channel the energy and the urgency that we own to the positive action and principled solutions that will be energized our economy and promote opportunity. as a physician i ca can put youn a patient centered health care were patients and families and

doctors are making medical decisions, not washington, d.c.. [applause] positive solutions that build on the engine of a growt growth phf america's vast energy resources and our leadership in science and innovation. solutions to restore america's leadership in the world stage with a military force capable of defending our freedoms in deterring the terrorists, not bleeding from behind when you leave them behind, you end up behind. [applause] we need to prove to our fellow americans we can achieve these goals without invoking the heavy hand of government, without undermining individual liberty. and that's how we ensure the preservation of liberty by tirelessly working to persuade others to come to our cause to reason and compassion and we know we can because we have a story to tell. the belief that america is the greatest nation in the history of the world. a nation that has provided more

opportunity and success and dreams realized for more individuals than any nation mankind has ever known. that is a pretty special place. and that success was not born in washington. it wasn't legislated into being. it was born out of the faith and character of the american people and it's the fee that faith and character that gives us our strength today as all days. ronald reagan used to speak to make sure we pass the freedom of future generations and he talked about the moral imperative of americans acting together. he was speaking at a time that three men and women were individuals who wanted to be free men and women behind the iron curtain and they were behind that wall of human dignity being suppressed and times and circumstances may have changed, but the cause remains the same. and our challenge today is multiple but especially two main things. one, we have to keep the principles for which the generations have fought to

preserve. i live in our hearts and in our actions. second, we must actively share our positive message. message. our upbeat message with our neighbors and leaders and all that will listen. as i said before, it is easy to be cynical when times are tough. it's understandable to feel that a broad they are collectively just too much to handle. but as ever i see reason to be optimistic and that optimism starts right here in this room with folks just like you ready to fight to secure a brighter and a stronger future for our kids and for our grandkids to not let the attacks on individual freedom and liberty were the rule of law to go unnoticed. do not let america just become one nation among many. and i know that we are up to the task. i know it because as samuel adams has had come it doesn't take a majority to prevail. prevail. and i agreed and tireless minority keen setting the brush

fires of freedom in the minds of men i am honored to stand with you. let's go to those brushfires of freedom, thank you so much. [applause] ladies and gentlemen, please help me welcome from the texas faith and freedom coalition susan fletcher. [applause] what a great conference. thank you so much to this organization. hasn't this been wonderful? [applause] and guess what, it is about to get even better. ladies and gentlemen, you are in for a treat. one of my favorite congressmen. we have several from texas. one of my favorite congressmen. i have a saying i like to see

that in texas and i want to tell you i want to challenge everyone here if you don't do something with what you are hearing todayy is like leaning on a shovel and praying. you have a shovel, kick it up and use it. and this congressman is one of those that absolutely does not. he has been shoveling and working so hard for those values that we all hold so dear. congressman louie gohmert is serving in his fifth term in the u.s. house of representatives. he was recently named the vice chair of the judiciary subcommittee on crime, terrorism and homeland security and has extensive knowledge. he was elected to the three terms of the district or to the county later appointed by governor rick perry as the justice of the court of appeals.

he still teaches sunday school to this day and it is my pleasure to introduce to you the congressman louie gohmert. [applause] i appreciate you standing before the talk and i never know how it is going to go after i do. but you know what, god has a way of preparing us for what is ahead of us. he really does. i know when i ran for the judge i felt like it was a calling. i've had people on the reporters say you felt it was a calling committed you hear voices? i wish i heard voices. life would be so much easier. there was a guy that did hear

voices and they told him what to do. i've never been that fortunate. i pray. i read the bible, i seek couns counsel. but my wife and i felt like this was a calling. at that point in time running for the judge and we had a backlog of a thousand criminal cases out on the waiting trial. i had to get them set for the trial. and the way that you do that you have a big call. his attorney would come up and i would look them in the eye and i would tell him when the trial date was and ask if they understand and that way if they weren't there they would go to jail and they got ready for the trial of quicker. they wanted t wanted the trial t seems like. but anyway i was calling one after another, the defendant and the attorney came up and i got a court reporter taking it down and before he could answer his

lawyers said my client is deaf so we will need an interpreter for the trial. i said we will have one for the hearing. but today all i need to do is make sure that he understands when his trial date is. so i looked to the defendant in the eyes and said can you read my lips and he looked me in the eye and went. [laughter] i didn't realize at the time that was good preparation for washington. like you can be questioning the attorney general of the united states and have him look you in the eye and not be honest with you. i didn't know what kind of preparation that would be. but fortunately i have now been considered with the attorney general. he called me his body.

he said you don't want to go there buddy. [laughter] but i took it as a term of endearment. he wanted to be my buddy. i was touched. but anyway, there were a lot of problems going on these days and i know god has a sense of humor but he has a sense of justice and likely been set on the walls of the memorial that second inaugural address and snp finally gets to the point that he says but basically if it's god's will that every drop of blood drawn by the masters lashed with the drawn by this word, then we must stay as it was said 3,000 years ago, and he quotes from the bible itself and

saying the judgment of the lord are true and righteous altogether. folks, god is merciful, he is full of grace, he has given us a chance after chance and he has blessed america and has made us more free with more abundant, more assets than any niche in history. more than a column in israel. but to whom much is given much is required. and today as i stand before you there are more christians being persecuted in anytime in the history of the world. we have been given much and of us much is required. we should be about encouraging good conduct, and we should be about punishing evil. and when we fail to stand up and

be light and a beacon for good conduct though one else is going to do it. i was in nigeria two weeks ago visiting with 22 of the mothers who have daughters kidnapped and it's a horrible situation. and what some of the other nigerians and some of the pastors was saying is, you know, america used to stand up for right, and we keep being told that nobody in america cares. nobody will ever come. so we are so thrilled that you u came, but it doesn't look like america cares anymore. when i traveled in the middle east in the past year, our allies, moderate muslims are saying you are helping the enemy now. why are you helping the enemy? you know, you're throwing away your friends and helping your enemy. we don't understand it. there are consequences for that kind of bad judgment. and to read last night after i

got back from the capital that our secretary of state is trying to work with the iranians on the iraq situation, folks iran in case you haven't followed wants to destroy the little israel and they want to destroy the united states. they want us gone. iraq has radical islamists coming in destroying the good that was done with the american treasure and especially the treasure of human lives and because of the bundling of the administration failing to get a status of forces agreement that the president basically had to dkeep out and should be an easy thing to do.

as the country is falling the president is going to send less than 300 troops over but without a status of forces agreement iraq cannot arrest them anytime they don't like what they are doing. that is what the status of forces agreement protects. this is really getting serious. and since we know that iran is serious about wanting to destroy the united states. if you have someone step forward and say i want to work with the iranians. i want to share military information with the iranians, then some might say that would be treason for any american to go try to work with the iranians because they want to destroy us. but treason requires an intent.

and i don't believe there is any intent here. i think it is just sheer ignorance thinking that you are so persuasive that you can get our enemies to love you. and i remember under this administration when we voted against israel for one of the first times in israel's modern history it was to require israel to disclose their weapons, and i thought about the time that isaiah went by the direction and said what have you done. he knew what he had done. but when you get to the original, he explains all the babylonians came in and i showed them all the treasure. but i showed them all of our differences that we have in our arsenal. you don't show your enemy all of your defenses and this

administration is doing great damage in working with our enemies who have never given up the desire to destroy us. i have christian friends who say we don't have to worry. god is in control. yes he is in control just like he was when the children of israel said we would like a king and he said it's not a good idea. let me just warn you. it wasn't a good idea. he was in control in israel split into the northern and southern kingdom. he was in control in the northern came fell and he was in control in jerusalem, the southern kingdom fell to the baloney -- babylonians because he gives us free choice and he has given us enough freedom more than any other nation in history and now it is up to us to protect them. in the declaration of independence, all of the

founders agreed that we were and our coming off by the, but by our creator with certain inalienable rights. one might ask if they were in a label, why doesn't everybody have their backs because they are a bequest and like any bequest you don't get it unless you accept it and you don't keep it unless you are willing to fight for it. because there are always evil people in this life that will take it away. i want to leave you with one final thought. we can be such a great instrument for good in the world, and it makes us more blessed and we become more blessed. but when we do not enforce the law, when we break all of the poppers that talk about impartiality and fairness indices on can ignore the law and some can't, we are headed

for trouble. but what can you do blacks i just want to leave you with this one final thought. i had a case and because it was so well known in my home town of tyler we moved to dallas and somebody in my sunday school class, a couple had a son michael who was found to have a tumor while i was in trial in dallas. it was a long june week trial and i got word that their son michael had this tumor and it was very serious. people didn't normally recover. i went by to see them and something hit me that night. i need to go get some tapes on heaven. i called around and the closest way i didn't think i would have time during the lunch bu lunch y didn't go. i finally went and got the tapes, got them to michael and

he got better and months later he was doing great but it came back with a vengeance and it took them at his funeral. he came up to me and we hugged and we wept and dennis said louie, that last night in the hotel we were supposed to have treatment that day and it o'clock michael woke up and said that dad, can i listen to the tape on heaven and he said while he was listening to the table and heaven, he went there. and i cringed. i came back not close -- i came that close to not doing what i

had the feeling and knowing what i should do. folks, you get those feelings and test it. if it's not something selfish -- if it is for some greater good for someone else, for the country, then do it. because when the spirit moves me you better move while you are ye going to lose the country. god bless you all. [applause] >> please welcome to the stage again virginia galloway southern regional director faith and freedom coalition. >> good afternoon. you didn't have lunch yet, did you? with the go-ahead and catching h you up on the schedule. it is obviously running a little bit late. the northwest region is in the calvert room. midwest region and western are combined in ambassador ballroom, that is a change from your program so please note that if

you are from the western region going to the midwest. and the southeast region is in the hampton ballroom. after that amount he will have a super breakout session. starting with the war on christianity. a new war on poverty and to read ralph reed's that he will be an exciting books. so choose one of those breakout sessions to enjoy. you can go grab a sandwich and bring it to any of those breakout sessions were talks if you need to do that. because i don't know about you, but i'm starving. so, go ahead and grab something. and take it there. this is the most important thing. you do have a nice long dinner break. that's not the most important thing. the most important thing is what comes after that. we are going to hear from steve green tonight. he's going to be singing for us. we are going to hear from [inaudible] we are going to hear from some of our others and then we are going to wrap it up with governor mike huckabee. i know you will enjoy that. please be back in here before

7:00 tonight to get a good seat [inaudible] thank you very much and we will see you. grab a sandwich and come on. the founder of the safety and freedom coalition ralph reed will be the guest tomorrow morning on washington journal. you can tune into the starting 7 a.m. eastern. and if you missed any of the conference today we will have it online, c-span.org. my testimony at 8:0 8:00 with 8e irs commissioner john koskinen. he refused to apologize for the loss of e-mails from former irs official lois lerner. he attributed the lost e-mails to a computer crash. which of the congressman paul ryan challenging hi challengingg there's a pattern of abuse at the irs. and that republicans don't have confidence that the agency is being impartial. here is some of their exchange.

i don't think an apology is owed. there is not a single e-mail that has been lost since the start of this investigation. every e-mail has been preserved that we have. we have produced a well produced by the produced a well produced by the end -- >> you don't think the time to work out between january, 2009 and april, 2011 is relevant to this investigation? spinet is very relevant. >> the letter that we received on friday the 13th admitted they were lost off the hard drive and we also -- >> i'm not finished with my question and i will give you an opportunity to answer. but you failed to explain the timeline of the events that led to that. and my question to you is from the interviews that we have had with the deputy chief of information about the deputy chief information officer for the irs, i'm told that the irs due as early as february that her computer crashed supposedly caused the loss of her e-mails during the time for january, 2009 to 2011. has the irs known since

february? >> the irs new in february there was an issue and as it was noted we all had e-mails last fall in which she decided that she had a hard drive crash. >> said in february you knew the e-mails were missing tax >> no, we knew there was a problem because we were looking at it from the standpoint of what the timeframe was in the true e-mails appear to come and it appeared that there were not enough e-mails in that timeframe. >> so why did the irs notify the congress of the time there was a problem with a potential loss of the e-mails we were investigating? spinet because i thought it was important. it was my decision that we complete the investigation so that we could fully advise you as to what the situation was. >> i got a letter from the white house two days ago that his treasury contacted the white house in april of this year to tell them about the lost e-mails. who told the treasury department? spinet part in? spinet who told the treasury department flexibility that i received from the white house said the treasury to them in ton april of 2014. so, my question is who told the

treasury department clacks >> my understanding only from that letter -- which does not say that the e-mail was lost to -- my understanding is that the letter says that someone in the general counsel's office with thwithinthe irs informed the gel counsel's office at the treasury that there was an issue and the irs was investigating -- >> the letter says the treasury was told the treasury told the white house -- we also have a letter that says the treasury learned in april of 2014. who told the treasury can and do you know who told the white house? pack i have no idea, i have no communication with the white house. >> you are the head of the white house and you don't do something that's important to contact between your agency and the branch, you are unaware? can a clear part of the executive branch. we have communications and issue regulations. we review them and we are in the process of reviewing the regulations on the 501(c)4 issue. we have regular communications particularly between the counsel's office and the treasury counsel. >> the irs new in february or maybe even march and the treasury and white house knew at least in april the congress and

the american people didn't find out until june. were you purposely not telling us? would you purposely not revealing this to the american people? spinet my proposal wasn't -- my original thought was to complete the lois lerner e-mail production, complete a review of what other custodians have a problem and produce a paper to you that is laying it all out. >> so why didn't he informed the executive branch agencies, the white house, the administration that kept it secret from the congress who was conducting an investigation? >> it was our public record that was provided in this information. there has been no attempt to keep it a secret. my position has been that when we provide information, we should provide it completely if we provide incomplete information sometimes people are attempting to leap to the wrong conclusion not based on any facts so we thought it would be important to give you the full -- >> but it's okay for the white house and the treasury to lead to a conclusion six weeks before

the