be circumvented. we've done that on two occasions and we're prepared to do it again. >> could there an argument be met this pain threshold clearly has not impacted his behavior? or do you argue the sanctions have impacted his behavior? >> well, all i can tell you is we have deterred further land grabs in the ukraine. that was a real risk when we first started with sanctions, that they would try to run all the way to kiev. i can tell you russians are openly talking now about the pain of sanctions including when we work with them on the minsk thing. so they know what it is going to take to get these sanctions rolled back and it's their choice whether they want to do what is necessary. >> how about crimea? how come we no longer hear crimea minged? is this defacto, something we accept as reality or does that continue to be a part of our conversations that crimea should be returned rightfully?

>> senator i mentioned crimea in the opening. secretary mentions it every time he speaks publicly in russia. we will maintain the crimea sanctions which are significant, both u.s. and e.u. until crimea is returned rightfully to the ukraine. >> when they took over crimea, there was sense, i thought it would be a boondoggle for the russian government, it would cost them a bunch of money to maintain the area. has in fact turned out other than geostrategic advantage do we have sense how many resources they're upholding to maintain this as part of their national territory? >> it is our estimate that russia is spending billions of rubles trying to maintain the foothold in crimea. the most concerning factor though they are further militarizing crimea. dr. carpenter might want to speak to that. >> thank you. >> i would just say absolutely russia is militarizing crimea. they put in very sophisticated

a-2-ad capabilities since start of the conflict. >> thank you. >> senator murphy. >> thank you very much, mr. chairman. welcome to both of you. thanks for taking so much time with us. there was conversation with senator purdue over the u.s. georgia bilateral relationship. i want to explore that relationship with the upcoming nato summit. we hope we will continue on track to offer membership to mon at that montenegro. that nato has signal for those that are ready and transatlantic institutions are open for business despite aggressive tactics of moscow but the georgians are likely either going to leave warsaw disappointed and, the question remains whether there is any future for georgia inside nato

while there is still contest over these territories? what we know putin's ambition, i don't think, what i believe, that putin's ambition is not militarily own ukraine. he wants to continue clouded title over a portion of that country so that eventually there becomes such economic and political tumult that a government is reincalled in kiev much more friendly to moskow's interests. so it is in our interests to make it clear to the russians to the extent that they are successful in ukraine or other places in the future creating clouded title over portions of territory, that it doesn't prevent those countries from being eligible to join transatlantic institutions. so, happy, both of you, are involved in this book of business. so, talk to me about what the future of georgia's potential nato membership is. i am someone who supports at least a membership action plan

for georgia but, is concerned that without the sell meant of these territorial questions georgia will forever be disappointed walking away from nato summit after nato summit. >> senator, i think we expect that the warsaw summit that the alliance will reiterate the message that we've had to georgia since 2008 regarding our expectations of membership. one of the things that we are seeking to do as an alliance for georgia is reorient nato-georgia relations, u.s. georgia -- georgia relations from deploying with us in afghanistan or kosovo much more focus on their homeland security needs, national defense resilience, et cetera, so we're working on that. the best antidote to russian pressure is a successful, prosperous, democratic georgia.

that's why we work so hard with them on justice reform, on rule of law, on strong institutions, on market access. we're also encouraging georgia in its relationship with the european union as it implements the trade benefits of that, to reach out to the them and make it possible for them through tbilisi to have the benefits of a trade relationship with europe so that some day those parts of georgia may see stronger benefit from tbilisi than what anything being offered by any external neighbor. but you're absolutely right, that it's essential for us to continue to be strong supporters of georgia's aspirations. >> let me actually ask a different question of you, dr. carpenter. you can answer this one as well, if you would like. we have, obsessive in this place about military assistance,

military assistance for the ukrainians. many members of the senate have been disappointed at level of military assistance we've provided but it is not a coincidence that ukrainians have become much more effective at rebutting russian advances. not a coincidence this happened during a time notwithstanding a question over the future of javelin missiles we've been transferring pretty important technology and expertise and training resources to the ukrainians. there is a success story to tell here about integration of department of defense and ukrainian military which is part of the story as to why while insufficient the lines have been able to largely hold over longer period of time. can you talk to us a little bit about the success of the partnerships we have had with the ukrainian military? >> yes. thank you, senator. we have launched with ukraine a substantial training and equiping program. there is also an advisory component to this focused on defense reforms which is fairly

substantial effort. but the training, equiping alone is, is hundreds of millions of dollars for this year. it is $335 million. it involves, last year we were focused on the national guard which is within the ministry of interior. we trained six companies. now we're training conventional armed forces as well aspects operations forces. . . >>

>> ukraine to hold the line when day launched a massive assault and the ukrainians actually had the capability to detect surveillance by the russian separatist combined teams resulting in severe get casualties' all the other side. although our trading and equipping program is very successful, we would like to continue that with support from congress for this effort. and we are very proud of the work our folks are doing from the california national guard but if i could tie this with regards to the discussion about georgia and is to replicate that success

to implement a training program that is a just focus on the expeditionary operation that george's performing in afghanistan afghanistan, that is primarily counterinsurgency focused to trading and the cooking not territorial defense. as does ukraine i cannot stay to give answers with your professional opinion what is the likely effect of russian behavior be if they withdrew its support from nato? >>.

>> is a former ambassador to nato, i would say senator that would be a strategic from the united states. >> i could think of no greater gift to russia and no strategic folder me to the united states with the course of action. >> second question on the eve of the warsaw summer -- a segment how concerned are the european nato allies about a potential change in the u.s. level of support for nato? >> obviously allies are watching the debate here in the united states with a lot of interest as they always do.

they footed and and as they find it very difficult to understand united states to break a seven year to a commitment that has served us so well. >> i will say in my conversations of my counterparts i have heard to pick it concerns but i think a lot of our partners believe we will remain committed members of nato ben did your professional opinion. >> it is needed now more than ever. >> i could not agree more. >> i have no further questions to. >> i have no idea under which context those questions were asked but as a follow-up i do know we had madeleine albright here

obviously the nato alliance is very important to europe with the two sides of the ocean more closely together. what we can do to leverage our nato allies. we are a global entity entity, 70 percent of those defense resources are spent by the estate's i realize we have other responsibilities outside of nato but what is the real leverage point for those better someone laggards that violate the treaty commitment? we keep pressuring all of us on both sides of the ideal to talk with counterparts in

utica and other places where we're the provider of security services we appreciate so much especially in afghanistan we appreciate their commitment that we still only have four countries honoring the monetary side of the treaty. >> that combination has motivated in ways we have not seen for many years as we head toward commitments to defense spending 70 percent of the allies are making those commitments and most are now increasing their defense budgets and within a few years we will be in double digits but we all have to continue to advocate a push as we head

towards warsaw as the u.s. is evident and others as he did in afghanistan we value the advocacy that we all do and a bipartisan basis. >> i would gsa right now we have five allies including the united states that are 2% there is additional pledges of 20% but is important to sustain those capabilities going forward and ready to talk to allies about this every day but the other point after having coming from a trip from the western balkans they also do provide troops that we read

in afghanistan and other places it is important to remember to defense spending but they're also contributing troops to the fight. >> people have been a lot for thursday at the end of the day if you would respond to questions timely 84 years service and to be here to help us thank you very much. [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations]

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does air thanks to our second panel for being here but we have found those are more interesting in many cases. not necessarily the case today but they sort being here. with the fellow from the hudson institute biggs for sharing your wisdom and also i know earlier at the hearing this year i'll is wanted you to come back and thanks for the effort to be here and with that please begin within five minutes.

>> senator, i am very glad to be here and very anxious to talk about u.s.-russian relations not only from the point of view of policies from the bilateral of arrangements also those which informs all of the latter which is the spirit of russia. oftentimes we make policy on the assumption it is very little different from the spirit of the united states that is why we are surprised by russian behavior if we take it for granted that the leaders of a country are dedicated to the national interest and welfare of the

population we find that hard to understand that it is a different to the welfare of the population. if we take it for granted the individual is the end to it selfie fighting hard to deal with individuals of the political goals and many of those are bizarre. and for this reason to mistake russian actions one of the most important things that war is is to mcdevitt internal policy the first chechen war was launched to be as short a victorious war to boost to the retailing

that was suffering because of the aftereffects of privatization the war proved to be short nor a victorious. the second war was undertaken to guarantee the succession and this is one of the most important episodes of russian history that americans are very much in the dark it was used to justify a new war in chechnya potential is very little now became the prime minister and with the strength of the '60s -- successful prosecution elected president. later the bombs that were placed began to appear very suspicious and the fifth was

found and it turned out not to be terrorists but actually agents of the fsb. war broke out again as the results of the offense were the entire criminal revolution how that might be possible to recessed the authorities who were in charge in their own country. that is diversionary effort to distract russians from the true lessons and when approved greater the with the russians expected a new liver schirra operation was

launched to distract the russian population for what was going on and under these circumstances one of the most important things that the united states can do to reinforce the deterrence using war to reach about the true activities of their authorities so they're not just unwitting instruments at the hands of their leaders but in a position finally to make their leaders answer to them. it is over and above and complementary to and with that the terrence of the

european stability in world stability stands. >> 80 very much for that. >> 84 the opportunity. member states of the organization and with the rule of law with the legitimate concern with the internal affairs the russian federation has commitments with the freedom of expression and freedom of assembly and human-rights.

and test to these commitments and the principles but today the elections of the it incumbents that had been disqualified from the ballot. by those elections to be free and fair and with estimates of 240 million votes of the most recent parliamentary election and more than 100,000 people to protest against fraud. with the new restrictions

that will be allowed to use force in the event of mass demonstrations. it has been devoid of genuine opposition ended the unforgettable words after taking over shutting down networks and now controls all the airwaves including the united states as well as a political opponents at home. there are under severe pressure of the rtc media group of the panama papers. the prosecuting authorities

and the courts are to punish dissent the most respected human-rights organization the number that is comparable they include leftist politicians opposition activists and the remaining hostage that includes prisons really from the fact they come out of the streets to protest in 2012. if you oppose the regime on the 27 of february former deputy prime minister and

the democracy opposition was killed as he walked home over the bridge 200 yards from the kremlin wall. although they have apprehended that perpetrators to pursue the organizers and headed the investigative committee despite the obvious links he has not even been formally question. at exactly one year ago i fell into a coma as a result of severe poisoning and multiple organ failure the doctors told my wife i had a

chance of survival of around 5% so i am fortunate happy to be here today to be testifying before you. i am often asked how they could be helpful to the course of human rights and democracy in russia and the answer is very simple. we're asking for your support the only thing we ask for western leaders is by a treaty is a worthy partner to use western countries to be a pioneer to a stop to this for years ago this congress had a ground breaking a law that for the first-ever introduce personal accountability for human-rights corruption or

pillage the resources. to use the of financial system. and testifying before a this committee and in june 2013 by'' the most pro rushes law and history and for parliament. end of''. ended day get a clear message with the best possible way for that he writes of russia. >> thank you for your testimony. >> i will turn over to the

senator for questions but i want to take you. and with tremendous of human rights issues. >> first but we think the chairman for his this committee to focus on human rights issues. i know a was so long trip to come here and we're thankful your wife is here and that you're healthy. we know the person rescue have taken and what we just update you first on the global efforts we're making that it would be taken for

all countries to protect the rest in their citizens and they made it very clear about the commitments of basic human rights is that the internal matter for the legitimate interest in the russia does not take action against the abusers and as i indicated in my opening statements to apply that numerous times to the united states against russia with the basic human rights. today on the floor of the united states senate by unanimous consent for the second time have confirmed

that it will be global so we anticipate by the end of this congress into use that in other countries. i want to drill down on your comments about personal -- personal safety is so important with these issues and we have seen this as it rolls off the news stories pretty quickly. in your personal presence here today and those opposition forces will have

and the parliamentary elections and the protest after 2011 what if the russian public believes these elections are not there want to express themselves how will they respond? >>. >> as i complete the associate myself into of a free and fair national

election over 60 years if you take that goal standard and with the 18th. in the new restrictions for those who cover the elections in the new national guard and disregard of the mass protest. there is always some ongoing debate in the rig stand up and fair elections. we can choose the electoral process in order to help get that message across to get through the role of

propaganda and to help the young generation to go through the process because the day will come will russia will have a free and fair election. the open russian movement and across the country and with those campaign events and see how necessarily important that is and how we have this opportunity to participate in the election this year. two 1/2 years ago in 2013 he won the legislative seat and

then they do not need to collect signatures. the panera regime they use that as a filter to get those unwanted candidates of the valid. is to have this opportunity. i think it is partner and -- with the partners to pay attention to go to potential fraud were there will be a session coming up to raise that issue with the robust observation. began to be paid attention to because in the whole

world should be watching closely especially as both were mentioned today. >> congressman smith we rat tbilisi in july and i will make sure that the russian election as part of our priorities for these discussions. suggest we participate in the monitoring we report accurately what happens in russia. and knowing what happens there could be some personal safety issues associated with participation in this

election. >> and my colleague also faces risk of the databases but the we have known for a long time to be in that opposition but we think frankly the country has not been under the regime and if we want to fight for our country's future we have to except those risks and there is nothing better to give up dash and runaway. >> you raise a frightening point that russia uses to the domestic agenda not necessarily the importance of the battle itself but how

would distracts from other issues. un anticipate we may see more military action by russia to further the overall objectives the so much the specific area that those operations take place to further their domestic support for their broader goals? >> that is the key determinant and that is the most important thing for the unit is states to keep in mind to a anticipate that they are motivated the russian authorities to rebuild the soviet empire they are indifferent to that ago to more to strengthen old of power that monopolizes the instruments of power and property and

they feel threatened and they enter stand the best way to consolidate their hold on power is to pretext for military aggression and that is why deterrences so important not only in military terms but psychological. ended his neglected by the united states with great difficulty to understand that psychological context of what is really going on. all of the goodwill the district by a statement by secretary kerry that he lied to me to my face. and i was taken aback because i was surprised that they expected anything

different. that is part of the indispensable background of policy decisions and ruinous with whom you're dealing this is what is missing and has to be reinforced also an important element of deterrence. >> will be a brief recess until the chairman returns that i can vote for the senate. we will stand in recess. [inaudible conversations]