♪ ♪ howard: mainstream media have reported and commented on -- the way on roe v. doubt, it's pretty obvious what they think -- roe v. wade. i decided to compare it to a tsunami of media praise, the legalization of same-sex marriage seven years ago. personally, i had no problem with that ruling. i think it's widely accepted by the majority of americans, but this is about the coverage and the injection of raw opinion into news stories. "the new york times" ran 12

pictures of gay couples kissing and embracing under the headline equal dignity. the culmination of decades of activism that set off jubilation and airful embraces -- tearful embraces. many a times follow-up, there was revelry is and soul searching on gay pride day. such cities as new york city and san francisco promised a sort of social catharsis of bicoastal toast to the nation's rapid shift on gay rights and an extended curtain call for the movement that drove it. now, "the washington post" front page story said the decision rewarded years of legal work by same-sex marriage advocates and pointed to the vexing challenge now facing republican presidential candidates and the gop itself, how to get in step with modern america. we also looked at the coverage of the original 1973 roe v. wade decision, and while it was overshadowed by the death of

lbj, it reflects that newspapers mainly took a just the facts approach. "the washington post" quoted the majority, then the minority opinions in the 7-2 ruling back to back. one new york times front-pager called roe a new set of guidelines that will result in broadly liberalized anti-abortion laws in 46 states, but the second story on the front page cited leaders of the catholic church assail ising the ruling while women's activists praised it. and the quotes many that story were from the cardinals in new york and philadelphia calling roe shocking, horrifying and an unspeakable tragedy for nation. what's undeniably clear is times have changed. i'm howard kurtz, and this is "mediabuzz." ♪ ♪ howard: as the media coverage of the high court tossing out the

roe decision keeps intensifying, president biden told reporters he feels strongly the senate should take a very rare step. if. >> the first and foremost thing we should do is make it clear how outrageous decision was. i believe we have to codify roe v. wade in the law, and the way to do that is to make sure the congress votes to do that. and if the filibuster gets in the way, it's like voting rights, it should be -- we provide an exception for this. >> chances of that happening in the senate are slim to none as keyed moderate democratic senators joe manchin and kirstin zimm that signaled. when they can't get anything done, they just want to blow it up. howard: joining us to analyze, emily ya jashinsky and in sand yea bow, laura fink, commentator and democratic strategist. emily, does this partially reflect all the negative

coverage from the left about giving speeches about abortion, protecting abortion rights but not taking any concrete steps to actually make that happen? >> i think absolutely, and it's part of this broader pattern of biden's unseriousness about what he's able to do with his powers. if he slips this into a news conference -- i thought that was interesting in and of itself, that he made that announcement which in the last half century, any other time would have been huge news and it sort of blended into the rest of the coverage, i think it reflects that there's a lack of seriousness about what he's actually able to do and how he's managed the balance of power in the democratic party with manchin and cinna -- sinema. howard: no, he doesn't have the votes to do this, manchin and zing ma are pro-choice and not willing to suspend the filibuster. when ebb he came out for a gas tax holiday, his own party shot that down, and the president had to concede that. isn't he setting himself up for

negative stories when he says let's do this, and then within 24 hours the coverage makes clear he can't do that in a 50-50 senate, because he hasn't got the votes? >> i don't think he engineers his entire decision making process around media coverage. i think there's a gravity and extreme seriousness about the constitution especially in the wake of president trump who violated the constitution multiple times. so i think when you take that contrast and the fact that he sees himself as a bulwark, it is very serious that that he has advanced the notion of eliminating the filibuster, a carveout for abortion rights. and i think that's because of the impact on women. he knows women are going to die as a result of this ruling. and to speak to your coverage, howie, in the beginning i think the difference between the gay marriage and the roe ruling is the granting of a right versus the taking away of a right from more than half the country. and the reaction to that, jubilation in the streets with gay marriage and couples kissing, and then women and men if marching in the streets to

protest. i think you have to look at reaction of the american people, and that dictates a lot of the coverage as well. and i think that's important to note especially given the roe ruling goes against the vast majority of what americans think and feel about a woman's right to choose. howard: well, the president may not be as -- by media coverage, but usually you consult with your legislative allies before you say let's do this, because otherwise it turns out you can't do it. 'em emily -- >> well, he knew that, you know that. howard: i'm sure he knew it, which is why i'm a little puzzled by it. the new york times reports that 80 democratic prosecutors in red states are vowing, they signed a letter, not to enforce abortion in states that are against it. i don't see how that would last. the state attorney general would step in. but i'm not seeing outrage or even criticism in the mainstream media that these public officials say they've going to defy a supreme court ruling. >> well, yeah, and we've seen

this over and over again in sanctuary cities. to laura's point, that's exactly what the media is getting wrong here. people's rights were returned to the states which is why when the media rationalizes its generally pro-abortion coverage, you saw that this week mostly interviewed women who were supportive of abortion on this explicit idea that most people support roe in the country. that is true, butst only half true because when you look at polling over the years, people don't mow what roe does, and so they support it in name but not in substance. and this has given the media basically a fig leaf to be more pro-abortion over the course of a long time. i think we see that play out this week. and your introduction, i think, was fascinating and really nailed the problem. howard: okay, thank you. i think most people who support abortion rights would prefer pro-choice and not pro-abortion. nobody wants more abortions.

but, laura, "the washington post" is reporting that some pro-life groups and their republican allies are drafting model legislation to prevent, for example, residents of texas from traveling to california to get an abortion in that state it would be legal by allowing citizen lawsuits, some would call this vigilante justice, against the women who would travel or against the providest. how are the media going to cover that? >> well, i -- we'll see. i think criminalizing abortion, i think charging doctors with homicide, charging women who get abortions and have pills sent to them in the murder, i don't know how you regulate this with respect to interstate travel. but this is a massive overreach. and i think what you see with prosecutors is them reacting to that. 80 prosecutors saying this is about community trust and limited resources, and we're not going to enforce a law against doctors, we're not going to criminalize this process and lock women and doctors up. we are instead going to focus on

the violent crime problem, the fentanyl issue. and we see prosecutor prosecutorial discretion is a very powerful thing. i go back to these are elected officials, and they are reflecting the will of the people and the opposition to the enforcement of these laws. so i think this is a strong stance, and i think it's reflective and also why we see coverage of it, because we see that these are things, the open landscape for what this means for everyone on the ground, the impact on every american citizen is profoundly negative. howard: before we even get to criminalization, the idea that travel itself would become a battle ground. and, by the way, the biden administration says it's going to protect interstate travel by women, but it tells you where this is going. let's take the border view. emily, how do you see the overall coverage of the supreme court ruling which seems to focus so heavily on abortion clinics and pro-choice views as opposed to those who are very

happy about this decision. >> well, and, you know, roe was criticized if for years by liberal legal scholars from ruth bader ginsburg to many other people because of the way that it was rooted in what they saw as shaky sort of constitutional ground about due process, 14th amendment, the right to privacy. and so when you're run -- returning this decision to the states, it's not the same as taking away a right. but i think the media really took the pro-choice movement's talking points and reflected them in the coverage. and another really interesting thing in your introduction is how you used words like modernization, human rights -- howard: out of step with the country. >> exactly. and that frames this as something that is not controversial. if you are on the other side of this, you are against modernization. you are against human rights. jim van dehigh many a note to axios -- in a note to axios reporters, he explicitly said abortion is a human rights issue. that puts even on the other side against human rights. howard: pundits say, hey, this

is about democracy, taking it away from unelected judges and returning it to elected officials mt. state. in the states. and and they also say abortion will remain legal in a substantial portion of the country, but as the previous part of our discussion made clear, it's getting a lot more complicated with these state-by-state battles, and that's going to be a complicated thing for the press to cover, essentially covering 50 ballots at once. >> i think that's absolutely true, howie. it's a complicate canned issue. but i congratulate emily for coming out and speaking to the press. part of the coverage is on who talks and the republican and pro-life folks are hiding in the wigs. i've seen press -- wings. i've seen press coverage on young pro-lifers in the in "the new york times," but i think this is about the political consequences of doing something and extragedying bodily autonomy for more than half the country and then hiding and pretending you didn't do it. if we saw marches in the streets

celebrating the ruling, if we saw politicians coming on the shows celebrating it, talking about the impact, talking about how they wanted to prosecute women, talking about all of these issues that we've covered here today, you might see different coverage, but they're hiding in the caves. >> one really quick point. first of all, they have been on network news and, secondly, they do the march for life every single year. thirdly -- >> once a year. >> -- maybe they're not talking to the media because the media says they're against human rights and equal dignity -- howard: i've got to jump in her- >> quoting opinion, that's a quote. howard: former vice president mike pence, kevin mccarthy saying he only wants a ban after 15 weeks, so there are many, many views here. let me get a break. when we come back, the media reporting some democrats are highly critical of president biden's response on roe, and that's fueling doubts ability a

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with a built in search engine, web browser, one click data clearing and more stop companies like google from watching you, by downloading the app today. duckduckgo: privacy, simplified. howard: the media reporting few doubts about -- jabs at president biden. from his own side the washington post says there's an increasingly frustrated group of activists and even members of congress who view president biden's response as strikingly inadequate to meet a moment of crisis. >> now the question is for the other party, the democrats, what are you going to do about it? you immediate to articulate a plan to fight back, and right now i've got to say that is shockingly absent. howard: some liberal pundits as we just saw, and democrats like aoc, elizabeth warren saying biden should build abortion clinics on federal land, he

should pay for -- the government should pay for women many red states to travel to states where they can get abortions, pack the supreme court. didn't they used to complain about executive overreach by donald trump? >> yes, they absolutely did, although president biden was the vice president of barack obama who had all his overreach with daca and -- right. it's always sort of, you know, a pretense. but, that said, you would expect, you know, if we're all about norms and returning to norms, president biden -- a big part of his pitch to voters was about returning to norms. you'd expect the media a to actually be testing these calls more than it is. instead, we sort of get chris hayes coming out and calling for more, actually. howard: laura, the white house view -- and the washington post reported on this -- that biden is being honest about the limits and how congress has to fix this. but when you've got pundits complaining, there's a sense they want to see him fighting. your take. >> you know, i get that.

i think, as democrats, i will say this: we are pretty comfortable having family fights in public. howard: really? >> yeah, absolutely. and, you know, we know republicans are criticized, and i think rightly, for i towing the line to the death even when they object. so this is where you're seeing a little bit of a democratic family food fight. and i don't think that necessarily is a bad thing. biden ran as a moderate with the progressive wing of party that supported him, and now they're just calling for action. i think it's also the mark of a president who is looking to return his poll numbers and a number of people that are running against those poll numbers. it's just the political dynamic that we see. howard: right. >> but don't forget, there were some calls, i believe, in '82 when reagan's poll numbers were the same, and he did just fine in '84, so be careful of reading too much into the tea leaves. howard: right. but what's fascinating is "the new york times" has a piece are relating it to all your questions about joe biden's age, his fitness for office, whether

he should run in '24 saying the president and his top aides have been stung by questions about his plans, irritated. the press has turned highly skeptical, and it is in part because democrats are increase increasingly being quoted on the record saying not so sure we want this guy on the ballot. >> yeah, they're picking up on things in that quote from the washington post that you just shared, this is members of congress. this is coming from a very legitimate frustration that's bubbling up not just with people on the fringes, anything like that. this is part of a broader pattern of you have the oldest president in american history and a very ambitious bench, and people are really starting to go to the media i think proactively and make these stories, build this narrative. and it is coming from members of congress. howard: right. >> i don't think this is going anywhere. i think this is start of a

narrative that's going to play out. howard: well, you know, when the pure horse race ends, laura, the company is -- country is seeing a tough re-election fight for joe biden. is the president entitled to feel a lack of respect from the party and the press as this times story says? >> well, i think he made a good move in talking to the press about that and suggesting that, because i do think that the media loves an in-fighting story and a horse rah race story two years before a presidential election because those are the types of things that make it like sports and covering it like sports. and so rather than talking about an incumbent president which is a little less intriguing and exciting, you talk about the candidates that are emerging and all of that. howard: right. >> i think that's sort of addictive for media generally. howard: we're guilty on that. and finally, you know, there are reports that joe biden feels like the press wrote him off totally in 2020 when he had all

those losses, and he won the nomination anyway, so he's thinking he he knows how to do this. emily, laura, thanks so much for coming by. up next, a horrible coverage as 534 migrants -- 53 migrants found dead in texas after illegally crossing over from from mexico. we've got griff jenkins just back prosecute board. ♪ ♪ ["only wanna be with you" by hootie & the blowfish] discover is accepted at 99% of places in the u.s. ["only wanna be with you" by hootie & the blowfish] i'm ben affleck, and i want to thank you for joining me and supporting paralyzed veterans of america.

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is clinically shown in a 7 day study to cause fewer ulcers than immediate release aspirin. vazalore. the first liquid-filled aspirin capsules...amazing! howard: it was an unspeakable horror that was discovered in san antonio, 53 my grants found dead in a tractor-trailer. joining us now, griff jenkins, fox news correspondent who has just returned from the border. does your reporting suggest this is just the largest such tragedy and that smugglers are exploiting these people? >> absolutely. the worst smuggling tragedy this on u.s. soil. however, howie, the reason i was down there there were two more

human smuggling operations on smaller scale. many one case, 2 dies. in the other case, 4 died. this is an ongoing crisis, and i will tell you prosecute media perspective -- from the media perspective, i don't think the media is covering it enough. fox has a reporter down there pretty much around the clock these days, but this is a problem. you know, you cannot stand next to a building burning and say the building's not on fire. i mean, the border is out of control, and the numbers prove this. howard: texas governor greg abbott posted something saying these deaths are on biden. he went on to criticize the president's policies at the border, that is fine, but the press is casting that response so quickly after we discovered this as kind of tone deaf in light of the loss of human life. i know you spoke to the golf. -- to the governor. >> i did, and he talked about the reason why this happened is because of the numbers coming across. border patrol that do these inspections of 18-wheelers don't

have the resources they need. too many people are processing migrants who are crossing every day, 1 # 1,2999 crossed in the small sector i was many just a week. but ultimately, wherever you place the blame it's not being addressed, and that's the problem. and what really upset me is i dug all week long to get the number of migrants that have died this fiscal year to date. not just the 53. and we were able, thankfully to our cbp sources, learn there have been 518 not including the 53. compare that to the last time cbp publicly reported the number in 2020 the, it was 247. so it's more than double. howard: that's a sobering number. do you think the press is holding homeland security accountable here since the biden policies -- and i know the administration won this court battle to overturn the remain in mexico policy, do you think the press is holding them accountable? >> absolutely not. listen, no fault of abc or cbs, the two interviews i just

watched with secretary mayorkas, neither pressed him on the lack of transparency with how bad this situation is with the migrant deaths and what's being done. mayorkas blamed climate change, he blamed covid, he blamed poverty and violence. and perhaps that's a push factor for these migrants to come, but the pull factor is is the incentive that the smugglers are given to see that they can get the migrants here and no one's going to try and expel them. they're going to come illegally and be able to stay, that's what's behind this, and that's why you're seeing so many smuggling operations. howard: yeah. i know it's been overshadowed by a lot of other news, and i think this is going to be an election issue. griff, thank you. next on "mediabuzz," some media conservatives pushing back on what journalists are hailing as compelling house testimony by cassidy hutchinson. but there is a split. we have guy benson on that. ♪ ♪

howard: the media are hailing the star witness at that last minute house hearing who actually dropped several bombshells, but there's been conservative pushback. cassidy-up -- hutchinson, who was chief of staff mark meadows' closest aide, testifies that president trump was angry that january 6th protesters with weapons weren't coming in to boost the size of his crowd, and trump said finish. >> something to the effect of -- they're not here to hurt me. let them many, let my people in. they can march to the capitol after rally's over. howard: hutchinson said she was told by a deputy chief of staff about a physical if altercation in the car when trump demanded to be taken to the capitol and was turned down by the lead secret service agent. >> the president reached up to grab at the steering wheel. mr. engel grabbed his arm said, sir, you need to take your happened off the steering wheel.

mr. trump then used his free hand to lunge toward bobby engel. howard: and she quoted an exchange when some were chanting, "hang mike pence." >> they were literally calling for the vice president to be hung, and he responded something to the effect, he thinks they deserve it, he doesn't think they're doing anything wrong. >> we heard absolutely shocking details, all the behavior of the president of the united states on january 6th. >> listen, testimony is, first of all, stunning because we haven't heard this. >> i think that she comes across very credible. she has a good memory for all of these different conversations. >> as far as building the case about what the president knew and when he knew it and how illegal his acts were, boy, did she paint a damning picture. >> and as their surprise witness testimony blows up this many their faces, there's another problem for the democrats. it turns out that voters just don't care about this january

6th charade. >> i was really taken by, a young woman character to show america and the world the trout. >> today we heard more rumors, a ton of hearsay and, wow, a lot of impeached testimony. howard: guy benson who hosts a radio show and podcast for fox rah radio. guy benson, welcome. >> good morning, howie. happy fourth. howard: same to you. let's make clear this is a highly partisan committee, a one-sided presentation, and there are serious problems with that even if it makes for a better tv show. what's your take on all of the praise for cassidy hutchinson's testimony on all the networks? >> i understand why they're interested in her testimony. a lot of it seems quite damning, and some of it could turn out to be precisely that. i would like to hear some other people testify to corroborate or blow up what she said. i think that what we have seen over and over again is a lot of people in the media rooting against donald trump no matter what, and so a lot of trump

supporters will view their analysis with suspicion no matter what they say because this has been the pattern for six years. so i think it matters who the other people are, what their credibility looks like many all of this. that's the type of thing that will move the needle, not necessarily media personalities pronouncing trump in big trouble as they have in times before. howard: yes, i have some are recollection of that. hutchinson said donald trump knew that that some of the people outside the rally were armed. he said take down the mags, i want a bigger crowd shot. given all of the virtual nonstop coverage of this, is this changing some people's minds in the way that perhaps the priest hearings didn't -- previous hearings didn't? >> i do get the sense that there are more republicans who are saying, okay, this is not good. we already knew facts were not great for president trump, to pit mildly, on january 6th. we all witnessed what happened on that day. i think part of the discussion, the whispers that are starting

to grow is do we as a party -- speaking on behalf of the republicans, not myself -- do they, do republicans want to continue moving forward with someone into the future who is the source of so much controversy and drama. howard: the former president is pushing back hard which tells me he's paying attention to to this hearing. he has called cassidy hutchinson totally discredited, he said she's making up stories. and then he said this -- >> the woman is living in fantasy land. i think the woman is, she's got serious problems, let me put it that way. mental problems. howard: so getting very personal. now, one serious issue has emerged and the new york times, fox, several networks reporting her account, the supposed physical altercation in the suv when he wanted to be driven to the capitol and was overruled by the secret service. hutchinson made clear she was told this by deputy chief of

staff and by bobby engel, the elite secret service agent who was in that car and that engel was there during this conversation, didn't challenge the account. how important is this in the overall scheme of her testimony and her accusations? >> well, it's important enough because a lot of media ran with it. it was one of the slashiest revelations that -- splashiest relations that came out of the hearing. some people are saying, oh, well, if that turns out not to be true, it's not that big a deal because other things are really important. they ran with it and plasteredded it everywhere. so if that piece falls apart, i think that does weigh on average people's assessment of what to believe or not to believe. i thinks important as you point out, u howie, to note that she never claimed she witnessed this happened. this was hearsay. other parts of her testimony were her recapitulating what she personally witnessed and heard. so i would love to hear from all of the above, all of the aforementionedded people that you just ticked through there to

try to get a handle on what actually happened here. howard: hitchenson -- hutchinson did make those distinctions, and the subpoena has -- the committee has subpoenaed path cipollone -- pat cipollone. what do you make of conservative commentators forcefully questioning her credibility, going after her in a way that they had in the past, i think, many would just kind of dismiss the committee as a clown show and not engaging on the subject? >> well, i think some of that is because there's a sense that her testimony really was damaging, and people were paying attention to it. so there was a sense of urgency about trying to impeach her as a witness as opposed to just waving the whole thing off and saying this is, you know, a liberal-progressive democrat witch hunt, it's totally slanted. when something breaks through must have and when president trump, for example, is personally attacking an individual, i think that gives

an indication that there's worry about what that impact could be, and they have to push back. and some of the pushback is fair and some of pushback, i think, is a little bit hard to believe, the idea that that she's just a nobody that had no role. i mean, she was working inside west wing right outside chief of staff's office. howard: but there is a divide on the right, as you know. the conservative washington examiner saying that donald trump is unfit for office. andy mccarthy calling the testimony devastate thing. and mick mulvaney, who's trump's guy, acting chief of staff before mark meadows, making the rounds saying he knows hutchinson, he believes her, and he doesn't think donald trump should be nominee. what explains this split? >> and he's not the only one. there are other alumni out on social media defending hutchinson and her credibility and her character. of so clearly -- so, clearly, there's a big with battle over this particular testimony of

this one witness. i think there are some conservatives who just want to move on completely from trump. they view this as an opportunity to further that goal. and also people, just some of them, are repulsed by what happened on january 6th, and as they learn additional details or alleged details, that sense of feeling sick to your stomach comes back, and people say i want to wash my hands of this altogether, enough is enough. that is one of the menial the cities here. then, of course -- mentalities here. then there are people who are, of course, more loyal to the president who don't want to believe on any of this. howard: on your radio show, you toll me you felt very strongly about the nature of the reversal of roe. explain. >> i just think -- and i credit you for saying some of the things you have said in recent days. having covered the media beat for years the way that you have, you told me on on that same show and the same interview that you've never seen anything quite like this when it comes to media bias on an issue. we know that the media

definitely leans left, i think is putting it very kindly. i think there's pro-life, pro-choice and pro-abortion, and i think there's a lot of people in the media establishment and the democratic party these days that cross a line into pro-abortion. they don't even try to be fair or even handed on the issue. her activists. they are aggressive activists, and they take a side. they coso very vociferously. so it was a festival of bias mt. press. howard: guy benson, thanks very much for joining us. good to talk to you. >> you bet. howard: after the break, more on the abortion rights battle and the house hearings. back in a moment. mug. ♪ to make dentistry work for your life. so we offer a complete exam and x-rays free to new patients without insurance - everyday. plus, patients get 20% off their treatment plan. we're on your corner and in your corner every step of the way. because your anything is our everything.

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howard: joining us now with her perspective on the big media controversies in washington, gillian turner, fox news anchor and correspondent. let's start with the roe reversal. you had a baby a year ago, the issue is very real. are the media covering this issue fairly or mainly embracing the pro-choice sidesome. >> mainly embracing the pro-choice side as the media historically has always done. but i think anybody who's paid attention over last decade would expect that that was coming. there is no surprise there. where i think media is failing is in their coverage of the biden administration's response to this ruling. right? we know that from the time the dobbs draft opinion was leaked month before last to the time the supreme court handed down

this decision, the biden administration had 40-some days to plot out their response in washington. as you know in the media, has an absolutely eternity, right? we would anticipate that everybody would be synced perfectly by the time this thing got actually handed down -- howard: and yet -- >> and yet the biden cabinet and the media is not giving the facts for viewers, for readers, for listeners. we saw on back to back days kamala harris told cmn they were not considering the option of providing abortions on federal land, the next day cabinet secretary javier beer is a rah said it was very much on the table, and they were looking at it. howard: that's mixed messaging. >> and no one call called them out. howard: men who will never bear children decided for an entire country that their christian doctrine is the only way. some of the rhetoric getting a

little -- >> not only is that inaccurate, but above and beyond that it's just sort of gross, it's unfair. and i think it actually demeans the commentator more than anything else. it's very poor form. howard: there's new reporting on the house january 6th hearings with cassidy hutchinson being the star witness, mark medco's -- meadows' aide. reporting she got a couple of phone calls, one of them from -- an intermediary, i'm sorry, saying trump wants to let you know that he's thinking of you, he knows you're loyal, you'll do the right thing. and so that has got the press up on possible witness intimidation. she was sitting right there, i don't know why she wasn't asked, but now we know that. >> i was going to say, demerits to the committee for not talking to her directly about it when she's there sitting on the witness stand. their excuse was, well, we want to keep these people anonymous.

but the witness is already sitting there. the entire country now knows this woman's name, what are you talking about? there's no more anonymity. so that was an illegitimate argument. i will say that the media here was put on to the scent of this by the committee itself. so that is a fair thing for the media to cover and, certainly, if it turns out that that did happen, it's not only inappropriate, but illegal. so so -- howard: if it happened. >> if it happened. howard: and a spokesman for meadows says he certainly was not involved in intimidation. "the new york times" reporting the trump organization are paying for some of the lawyers of potential witnesses including, for a time, cassidy hutchinson who's represented by a former trump white house lawyer who kid not want her to testify in public. she dumped him, hired her own lawyer and decided to go public. is that an important story? >> it's important. but that practice of offering financial support and providing financial support for people who are testifying is perfectly

legal, apparently. so you can argue about whether you like the optics of it or not, but it is allowed. i will also say it was a weird choice by trump administration in a way to do this, because they'ved had major problems with it in the past. remember are when paul manafort turned on president trump after they pulled funding for his lawyers? it seems like you wouldn't want to put yourself in that position again if you were the former president. ow howe liz cheney said on abc, said the committee won't watch her character assassination, about hutchinson. you worked for two with administrations, donald trump has denounced hutchinson as a liar and a social climber, some media conservatives are going after her credibility. do you see that having an impact? and i ask that because she was a trump appointee. she wanted donald trump to do well, but after january 6th, what motivation would she have to go up to the hill and lie?

>> i think it's unfair to attack her credibility in this instance because if you recollect many her testimony -- in her testimony, she was a third party to conversations when which she relayed -- now. howard: in some of it, yes. >> well, that's the part, you know, they're pushing back on elements of her testimony where where she's relaying a story that was told to her by the deputy chief of staff, right? two things could be true at once. the secret service could say, hey, that never happened, and she could still have been told that story. it's not necessarily her credibility on the line, it's others' in the west wing. howard: in order to do that, these ex-colleagues and officials need to testify under oath. she testified under oath. it's easy to do it through anonymous sources, and i hope that happens and we get to the bottom of this. always good to see you, gillian turner. >> you bet. you too, howie with. howard: still to come, up next russia bombs a ukrainian shopping mall, one of the greatest atrocities of this

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howard: another outrageous war crime volodymyr zelenskyy calling it a terrorist attack. at least 20 people dead, 60 wounded after a russian missile devastated a crowded shopping mall in central ukraine. and we're back with griff jenkins who has covered the war many ukraine. just unconscionable. did it also have the effect of partially reviving the coverage of a war that, let's face it, has faded day to day because we're now down to the sort of inscental slogging in that eastern -- incremental slogging? >> great question. today is the 128th cay of -- day of this war, and there is some ukraine war fatigue x. these images of that missile shop --

viking a shopping mall is devastating. and it's the second attack on civilians in one week. that was on the 27th of june. on the 30th, i believe thursday, we had the missile that stuck o questions saw that hit -- odesa that hit a residential building and killed 2 21 civilians. whether perhaps russia goes gone concern has gone back -- howard: there's been too many of these not to be deliberate. apartment buildings and theaters and malls and people waiting for bread. nor are they coming out and saying these were mistakes. but president biden, when he was in europe putting out idea of 300,000 nato troops being on high alert up from 40,000. but then you see some of these nato defense min the stirs saying, well, we didn't know about this, we have a plan for it. is that 300 just a theoretical figure? what does it really mean? >> well, i think the

administration clear arely wants to take credit for emboldening and reslaving a dead nato -- reviving, putting it back and using war in ukraine to do so. but at the same time, you don't see the same message coming from president biden about winning the war. ukraine actually winning. he just says heir going to give them what they need to stay in the fight as opposed to, say, prime minister boris johnson who's trying to win it. the question is whether ukraine can actually win this hinge in the long term. they're trying to do to it by august, their independence day. it's the unclear if they're going to do it. howard: yeah. and, ultimately, it's not the u.s.' call. we are providing money and weapons, but on the other hand, zelenskyy has to decide how much war his country can take. the death toll is horrible. "the new york times" reporting that u.s. intel says russia is running out of ammunition and cannot sustain its offensive pace. really? could press be falling for an overly rosy assessment here? >> there's no doubt russia has expelledded a lot of both

missiles, manpower and everything else, but but they're also able to refit if it, and we've heard reports of russians using civilian factories to stay this in this fight. so i think there is a bit of overoptimism that russia's going to run out of missiles. they clearly are having to use with older, less precise weapons according to the british defense ministry that gives us an update every day. but will it be enough for ukraine to turn the tide? i just don't see that. howard: reports in the last major eastern city, that province has fallen. so i don't want to see the vietnam syndrome where the press is told that everything's going great. >> we'll see. time will tell. howard: all right. that works for a whole lot of stories, but particularly on this one. griff jenkins, thanks for doing double duty for us on holiday weekend. that's it for us on "mediabuzz". i'm howard kurtz. hoping you're all having a good july 4th weekend. check out my podcast, media buzz meter.

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rich: concerns about the safety of supreme court justices as protests outside the homes are not letting up. governors in virginia and maryland are calling garland to step up and enforce the books to makes illegal to influence judges. i'm rich edison in for eric sean. alicia: i'm alicia acuña in for arthel neville. the letter comes from supreme court top officials asking for more protections for high courts members. they are orderingta