which may y interact withth cabenuva.a. seririous side e effects incnce alallergic reaeactions popost-injectition reactioio, liver prproblems, and depresession. alallergic reaeactions popost-injectition reactioio, if youou have a rarash and othr allergrgic reactioion sympto, stop cabenenuva and geget medicacal help rigight a. if youou have a rarash and othr allergrgic reactioion sympto, tetell your dodoctor if yoyou e liver r problems if youou have a rarash and othr allergrgic reactioion sympto, or mentatal health c concer, if youou have a rarash and othr allergrgic reactioion sympto, and d if you arere pregn, brbreastfeedining, oror consideriring pregnanan. someme of the momost comn side effffects includude injectioion-site rereactions, someme of the momost comn side effffects fever, andnd tirednessss. if y you switch h to caben, attetend all trereatment appoinintments. if y you switch h to caben, readady to treatat your v in a dififferent wayay? ask yoyour doctor r about evevery-other-r-month cabeben. readady to treatat your v in a dififferent wayay? evevery other r month, readady to treatat your v in a dififferent wayay? and i'm gogood to go.. this sunday, former vice president mike pence responds to the federal indictment of donald trump. >> i don't know why some of my competitors in the republican

primary presume the president will be found guilty but all we know is what the president has been accused of in the indictment >> if you were president biden, would you pardon him right now >> i think this whole matter is incredibly divisive for the country. >> as he launches his own run for the white house, he explains how he differs from his former running mate >> he promised to govern as a conservative he makes no such promise today >> his criticism on the world stage. >> my former running mate, seeing war raging in eastern europe, is not saying who would prefer to see win the war in ukraine. >> now, he thinks he can build support for his own campaign who is a pence supporter and how does it differentiate from a trump supporter >> i know the people in our movement >> my exclusive interview with mike pence making history, as the former vice president to ever directly challenge his running mate in a primary.

join me for insight and analysis senior washington correspondent, hallie jackson "new york times" chief white house correspondent, peter baker. kimberly atkins sorer. and steven hayes, editor of "the dispatch." welcome to sunday. it's "meet the press." >> from nbc news in washington, the longest running show in television history, this is "meet the press," with chuck todd good sunday morning. and a happy father's day to all the dads out there as one former prosecutor put it pr pretty bluntly this week, two years from now, donald trump could be in prison or be president. with trump holding a commanding lead over the republican field, his opponents face the question that will dominate this race over the next six months will they? can they and should they? go after the former president over his federal indictment? and trump's legal issues that are likely to come first, let's tackle the will

they clearly, it would be the best way for any candidate not named trump to get attention but so far, thechristie and asia hutchinson. hutchinson called for him to drop out of the race and christie said the conduct in the indictment is awful. as trump appeared in a florida courtroom, even o ppponents who have criticized the charges, diminished the criticism as attacks against the justice department before the case has been tried, they've been leaping to the promise of a pardon. >> this is my commitment on january 20th, 2025, if i'm elected the next u.s. president, to pardon donald j. trump. >> i think it would be terrible for the country to have a former president in prison for years because of a documents case.

i would be inclined and in favor of a pardon. but i think it's really premature at this point, when he's not even been convicted >> we're going to clean house at fbi, justice, and do a lot but part of it is using the article two powers, including pardons. if there was a distant standard, we're going to be inclined to grant clemency in those situations >> let's tackle part two can they go after him on this? in a quinnipiac pole,l, he garnr 53% of the vote. over a majority. in npr poll, americans believe trump shouldn't be running for president, 83% believe he can keep running only 13% republicans believe trump has done anything illegal. changing those voters' minds in a conservative media ecosystem that for now, plans to defend

trump under any circumstance, will be an uphill battle final part of this question, should they go after him one candidate that has an explicit take of the seriousness of protecting classified information, regardless of money or position, was candidate donald trump in 2016 >> in my administration, i'm going to enforce all laws concerning the protection of classified information no one will be above the law we can't have someone in the oval office whodoesn't understand the meaning of the word confidential or classified. one of the first things we must do, is to enforce all classification rules and to enforce all laws relating to the handling of classified information. >> perhaps that applies to thee and not to me in that case that was 2016 and his opponent was hillary clinton. as one republican strategist put

it, if your aren't willing to criticize trump, ask why you're running to defeat him? the bottom line for trump's opponents is what kind of party are they trying to lead. i sat down with trump's one-time running mate, mike pence he's challenging him for the nomination of course, i began by asking him of trump's indictment this week. you think these allegations are true or he deserved to be convicted? >> moments like this, i think it's important for leaders in this country and those of us who aspire to leadership, to return to first principles. the first principle is no one is above the law. the second principle is that every american is entitled to a presumption of innocence i read the indictment in detail. and the allegations in the indictment are serious i can't defend what is alleged but the former president deserves his day in court. he deserves an opportunity to

make his defense, in a court of law. and so, i want to reserve judgment about this until he's had an opportunity to take his case into the courtroom and take his case to the american people. i will never diminish the importa importance of protecting our nation's secret, particularly those that bear on our national security i have a son in the marine corps and a son in the navy, we have to make sure that classified materials, especially those alleged in this indictment, bear upon our national security, are protected and secured. that being said, we've gone through years, chuck - >> during the 2016 campaign, you said what hillary clinton did with the server and the mishandling of classified documents in october of 2016, you said it disqualified her to be commander in chief. does this disqualify donald trump from being commander in chief again?

>> i stand by that view. it's one more example of a two-year justice system we've been living in for seven years after seeing hillary clinton given a pass - >> it was by a - >> no. jeff sessions had another u.s. attorney look into everything with clinton and didn't bring charges this is a republican - >> james comey - >> i understand that but you looked at it again >> hillary clinton was given a p pass then, we 2 1/2 years through a russia investigation, we know through the durham report that should never have been done. >> there was an inspector general report that everything was legitimate to investigate. these are all republican appointees >> the independent council found that the investigation into russia collusion should never have been initiated. yet, we lived through 2 1/2

years of a constant barrage, on your network, on the cable network associated with you and many of the other mainstream media, that we had collusion and other officials guilt of collusion. big media and big tech suppressed the hunter biden laptop in the run-up to the 2020 campaign, when the fbi had the laptop and knew it was legitimate it's hard for me to believe that politics didn't play some role in the undecprecedented decisio- >> i understand you take it seriously. >> and the allegations are serious. >> you believe there's politics that influenced this decision. what was the justice department supposed to do should they not have charged him because he's an active candidate for president? even in the face of all of these

serious allegations? should they not have brought charges? >> as i said in the run-up to this indictment, i had hoped that the justice would see its way clear to solve this issue short of bringing charges. >> for the justice department or on the former president? he didn't respond to a subpoena or to former requests. he brought this on himself >> i understand what's been reported in the news we'll see what comes out in evidence in the court of law i had hoped that the department of justice would have done otherwise. as we have seen in the last week, this has only served to further divide our politics. i have to tell you, as someone who represented the united states on the world stage, someone who is on the international relations committee for ten years, we're

the gold standard of justice in the world. to see a former president of the united states, to be subject of indictment, by administration of the current president, that he may be running -- he may be facing again in -- that sends a terrible message to the wider world, where there's many third-world countries where that pattern is going on. >> flip the script imagine deciding you have evidence of a former president commits a crime and you don't charge that could be just as damaging to our gold standard rule of law. >> i think as we have the indictment now, and i said the allegations are serious, and proper approach now is for equal treatment under the law. the department of justice, i would like to see equal vigor to

the investigation into alleg allegations around hunter biden. >> how do you know they're not doing that right now >> well, i want to see them come forward -- >> there's a eu.s. attorney looking at this for quite some time >> frankly, the fact that president biden was found to have had classified documents dating all the way back, not just to his years of vice president, but his years in the united states senate, i would like to see the department of justice, moving forward vigorously in that investigation. that's equal treatment under the law. >> you approve of what garland did? >> we'll see what happens, chuck. the american people -- >> equal treatment - >> the american people so far, that the former president has been subject - >> there's a difference between equal treatment or equal outcome. are you looking for equal treatment or equal outcome

>> i am being clear on this. the american people would like to see evidence that we don't have a two-tier system of justice. seven years, it appears that democrats get one level of treatment and republicans, especially those of us in the trump/pence administration, get another -- >> you bring up seven years -- >> -- want to see action from the department of justice, that proves to them or starts to prove that - >> did sessions or barr justice department politicize things in favor of the democrats is that your allegation? in four of the seven years you're describing, that the justice department run by jeff sessions and bill barr, was politicizing the justice department in favor of democrats? >> what i'm saying to you is that we now know the russia collusion investigation should never have been begun.

2 1/2 years put the -- >> inspector general never said that >> in the days following that, under the biden administration, we've literally seen the justice department targeting parents going to school board meetings we've seen the justice department targeting pro-life activists. and i have to tell you, chuck. i'm still waiting for the rash of prosecutions of people involved in the blm riots from the summer of 2020 i mean, where is the equal treatment under the law as evidence of the fact that people are being brought into court, being held for having caused billions of dollars in damage in hundreds of riots throughout the summer of 2020 look, clearly the american people -- i would tell you, among republicans -- a vast majority of republicans have lost confidence in the department of justice. and if i'm elected president of the united states, i have said,

on day one, we're going to clean house at the highest levels of the department of justice -- >> you're talking about firing christopher wray on day one? >> christopher wray is a trump appointee. what makes him run a politicalized fbi? i understand the accusation. but the facts don't feel like they fit the accusation. >> all i can tell you is the reality today -- i appreciate the service of everybody on the top floor of the department of justice. >> you have commented a few times that you would target -- >> i think the question is premature. i mean, honestly, chuck. i've pardoned people who were

found guilty of a crime. >> what was your bar for a pardon >> let me say first and foremost -- i don't know why some of my competitors in the republican primary, assume the president will be found guilty all we know is wha know whatt t president has been accused of in the indictment we don't know what the defense is we don't know if this will go to trial. it could be subject to motion of dismiss. we don't know what the verdict will be of the jury. we don't know the result of an appeal i think, look, the president of the united states takes an oath to support and defend the c constitution of the united states as i said in my announcement, i will always choose the constitution but the oath the president takes also requires him to see that the laws are faithfully executed respecting the article three courts in this country i think we need to let the courts do their job and let this

case work its way through our judicial system. if i have the great privilege of being president of the united states, as i did when i was a governor, we would evaluate any request for pardon for any american >> if you were president biden, would you pardon him right now >> i just think this whole matter is incredibly divisive for the country. and look, i -- i just think at the end of the day it's at the end of the day, it is saddening to me that we are now in this moment for two reasons. president trump was my friend. >> you said in past tense. >> well, we worked together very closely for four years i'm incredibly proud of the record of the trump/pence administration some in this primary have taken to criticizing the record of our administration

i'm proud of everything we accomplish ed for the american people we left america stronger, more prosperous than ever before. you and i have talked in great detail, it did not end well. as i said in my announcement speech, the american people deserve to know, on that tragic day of january 6th, president trump asked me to choose him over the constitution. and i chose the constitution and i always will. i had no right to overturn the election >> isn't this your way of saying he is not qualified to be president. to put it in somebody else's words, i think it was liz cheney, you have to choose between supporting the constitution or supporting him is that what he's demanded? >> well, if president trump was wrong then, he's wrong now he has continued to say i had no right to overturn the election and kamala harris will have no right to overturn the election when we beat her in 2024

the role of the congress and the role of the vice president on that day is to open and count electoral votes, no more, no less and i'll always believe, by god's grace, that i did my duty that day with regard to going forward i'm running for president of the united states because i believe our party and country need new leadership president trump made history to be indicted why are so many ofof his rivals rushshing to defend hihim from . analyst t next your r raymond jamames financl advivisor gets t to knknow you, yoyour passiononsd the way yoyou give bacack. so youou can live e your lif. that's s life well l planned.

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(sirens)s) [due a at target i in 5!] copypy that. make a harard left dodown the alllley. netwtwork's got t you covere. [please e confirm requestiting back-upup.] -c-changing roroute. -g-go. roadblblock ahead.d. ...back upup, back up.p... reversrse! reversrse! nextxt level momoments, wewe're 30 sececonds out.. needed the next t level netwt. [northth corridor,r, hurry!] -comoming througugh! -or 3,3, let's go.o. the nenetwork morere busisinesses chohoose. transplantnt received.d. at&t bususiness. welcome back. the panel is here. nbc senior washington correspondent hallie jackson. peter baker, stephen hayes and editor of the dispatch and kimberly atkins stohr, senior opinion writer for the boston globe. will they, can they, should they, hallie? the president's defenders were

out. here is how the defense of the indictment began this week. >> was it a good picture to have boxes in a garage that opens up all of the time? a bathroom door locks. >> there are 33 bathrooms at mar-a-lago so don't act like it's in some random bathroom that the guests can go into. >> he is not a spy. he is overcharged. did he do things wrong? yes, he may have. he will be tried about that. >> where are we? >> okay. will they, can they, should they? the people that you saw of course will back donald trump and they're some of his most loyal allies and that fits a piece of where we are right now. will they, can they, should they? >> will they? not for a long while and that's a quote that i heard from a member of a rival campaign and donald trump going up in this election and based on my reporting to try to take him on and to pull the knives out right now for a number of reasons and they say that's just not where

the voters are and that's where the republican primary electorate is, and the numbers at the top of the segment show them that and that is backed up by fax and voters don't necessarily know that, and you'll have asa hutchinson come out and you'll have nikki haley, and on the one hand she'd consider pardoning him, et cetera. can they? they can, and should they? that's an assessment that each of these campaigns will have to come up for for themselves. >> peter baker, the field is split on the pardoning of trump here and here are those for pardoning him, nikki haley and you can use the word inclined in favor of a pardon and vivek ramaswamy, he held up the paper as his commitment to pardon him. governor desantis, very inclined to grant clemency as he talked about it. tim scott is not ready to discuss hypotheticals. chris christie implying that if it was a fair trial he wouldn't

pardon him and it's wrong. >> if you don't take him on, on the indictments, you're not going to get any coverage. >> no. that's exactly right. he is the all-consuming part of the republican party. we're not having votes yet, so maybe if you'll take the eyes out rather than make a target for him for the next three, four or five months and they're waiting for trump to be himself and right now none of them can beat him. >> that worked well in '15 and '16. >> this is not the end of the criminal justice system's handling of donald trump. there may be a third or a fourth indictment at some point, the calculation is does that begin to weigh him down? >> are we seeing the fifth avenue moment come to life? >> this is it and the fifth avenue indictment and that's what we're looking at. i take the point that these campaigns are making him that they might not go after him right now and it may be too

early, but come on. he's the front-runner. you're never going to convince voters that they should back away from donald trump and there's this misperception among the republican rank and file that none of the republicans in washington and none of the candidates opposing him actually think this is serious and are concerned about this when in reality we all know we're having conversations and they're saying to us, privately, in is bad. >> and the indictment is worse than we thought. >> this is bad. he's on tape, basically admitting it and this is what you hear from republicans privately and they say in public, i'm concerned about hillary clinton and the justice department. >> how deep of a hole can they dig, though? >> as you said, this is only going to get worse, if there are indictments out of georgia. already the indictment out of new york and these are things they can't even pardon and they can't use that argument and as things get progressively and progressively worse where can republican house members go past

once you put a lock on the bathroom door, it's a skiff and it's the same thing. they've reached such a low point, how much further can they dig? it will do long-term damage. >> let me bring up a concern some democrats are having as the white house being too quiet about this and we've had some reporting over the weekend, kimberly and one anonymous staffer to let them dominate to fill in the blanks here. biden should be hitting them hard and i don't think it's important to say nothing and another aide, we're allowing him to fight on his own turf. we've said this before. he fills the vacuum. this happened with mueller. he never said a word and never defended his work. >> because it would be inappropriate to do so, and trump uses that to his advantage and should democrats lean in more. >> biden is in a weird position. he's in two roles, one, he's the president of the united states and he's absolutely right that the president does not have any

power and should not have any power to influence the justice department and he's the presumptive nominee and donald trump is his op bonent and is an electability issue, you bet it is. he has to find a way to talk about the rule of law and explain why it is so important and someone who absolutely flouts he is unfit for office and while at the same time keeping his hand as commander in chief. >> there are real concerns that republicans raise that are just more than what aboutism about how the justice department has conducted itself particularly during the trump administration. there are legitimate concerns that the republicans can point to. i think there are things that republicans make about the non-prosecution of hillary clinton and those are fair points. if democrats were to pile on now in a public way and joe biden especially and any go after

trump on this indictment, they would be validating those concerns. >> joe biden -- i can't republicans are sticking -- >> that was the tiptoe. >> it was like the float, if you will. i think this conversation, though, is bringing us back to where we started this discussion which is half of republicans don't believe the justice department is a fair institution. half just don't think that the doj or the fbi is worthy of their favorability, if you will. that is a huge and a bigger macro issue playing out of the course over the next multiple years for a party that as you know has long been built on this idea of law and order and the shift away from that is really interesting. >> it does beg the question, what's worse, bringing this charge and not getting a conviction or bringing this charge and getting a conviction and it feels like nothing. >> you asked the question. what if you had this set of

packs and you don't bring charges. is there, in fact, a get out of jail free card and you can do anything you want and no one would hold you accountable. >> just as you hang over the illusion and start violence. >> when we come back, more of my interview with mike pence on why he's challenging his former running mate. >> i in (bobobby) my s store and m my design b bu? we'rere explodingng. but mymy old interernet, was s not lettining me run t th. soso, we switctched to verern bubusiness intnternet. theyey have busisiness grade internetet, nationwiwide. (vo) make the s switch. it''s your b business. itit's yourur verizon.. detect this: living w with hiv, detect this: i i learned i i can stay undndetectabe wiwith fewer medidicines. i i learned i i can stay undndetectabe that's whyhy i switched t to dovat. dovato i is for someme adultso are ststarting hiviv-1 treret or replacicing their c currt hiv-1 1 regimen. dedetect this:s: no otherer completee hihiv pill dedetect this:s: uses fewerer medicines toto help keepep you undedetectable thanan dovato. uses fewerer medicines toto help keepep you dedetect this:s:

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welcome back. former vice president mike pence loyally served trump for four years is now making the case for running against him in our sitdown i asked mike pence why chal erng his former boss now. >> would you be running against donald trump if january -- if he did not ask you to violate your oath? had he accept the results of the election and now he's running again without that would you still be challenging him? >> i -- i would leave that to historians to speculate, chuck. i would tell you at the end of the day he did, and i always hoped he would come around on this. >> sounds like, had he come

around you might not be running. >> look, no. i always hoped he'd come around on this issue. >> yeah. >> because i -- no one who puts themselves over the constitution should ever be president of the united states, and i had hoped that president trump would eventually see that he'd been misled by the so-called legal experts that had advised him wrongly about the role that he thought i had and still thinks i had that day, but also, i would honestly tell you, chuck, we have other differences about that day. i spoke about it in my announcement speech and it's not just looking at the past, but it's the direction of the country and the direction of the republican party in the future. i'm pro-life. i don't apologize for it, but after leading the most pro-life administration in american history, and now my former running mate has taken to calling some pro-life bills at the state level too harsh.

>> he called the six-week bill in florida too harsh and you disagree with him independent. >> i do. he also blamed electoral losses in 2022 on overturning roe versus wade. i think the cause of life has been the animating force of the conservative movement and -- >> what do you think 2022 was about? was it more about donald trump or more about abortion? >> chuck, look, candidates had focused on the future. candidates have focused on the challenges facing the american people in 2022, and did very well. candidates that were focused on the past were focused on relate gaiting the past did not do well even when we should. two other issues and i spoke about it in my announcement and i remember you saying a few weeks back that you always pay attention to announcements. >> i do. because you know that the candidate probably wrote every word. >> that's right. i believe it. two other issues that i think bear upon the life of a nation

of great consequence where the president and i have parted ways. >> look, in 2016, donald trump promised to govern as a conservative, and i'm proud to say that we did for four years out of the trump-pence administration, but he makes no such promise today. not only has he been walking away from a clear commitment to the right to life, but look, we have a national debt the size of our nation's economy. joe biden's policy is insolvency. he won't even talk about the 70% of the federal budget that represents entitlements. >> what does president trump want to talk about? >> donald trump's position on the national debt is identical to joe biden's, and to me the republican party has to be the party of growth and fiscal responsibility and reform. i think we owe it to those kids of mine and yours, to my

granddaughters to square our shoulders and be straight with the american people about the magnitude of this national debt. >> i admire you on this issue, but you realize it's an unpopular issue. donald trump takes entitlements off the table because it attracted more voters in pennsylvania, wisconsin and iowa. >> look, i get it. i get it, but i think -- i think the fact that when joe biden came into office and spent $2 trillion on completely unnecessary spending and ignited the worst inflation in 40 years, the american people are onto it that as the government racks up debt, the cost of living is going up in this country, it's affecting their family budget, and i think they're ready for a serious conversation that says, look, we can preserve and protect social security and medicare for people that are in retirement and who will retire in the next 25 years, but for younger americans to turn us away from that debt crisis that

they're facing, we've got to bring forward common sense and compassion. >> you'd raise the retirement age for people? >> all of these issues for young are americans are on the table including allowing younger americans to invest a portion of a payroll tax in a personal savings account. >> i say take a new deal program, make it a better deal. give them a better rate of return. >> you realize the politics of this has never worked. every time someone's proposed whether it was george w. bush -- >> why do you think the public is ready this time to listen on this? >> again, i think it's because they know the country's in a lot of trouble. we have a debt the size of our nation's economy for the first time since world war ii and inflation has gone up 16% in the last two and a half years. it's crushing the family budgets of millions of americans, two-thirds of which are living paycheck to paycheck. they're starting, in my judgment, to understand that as government racks up debt,

inflation is happening and we're seeing the purchasing power, so we've got to reform it. >> last issue is a difference, chuck, if i may. >> and that's about america's place in the war. look, i think america is the leader of the free world. we're the arsenal of democracy. under our administration, we made the largest increase in investment of our national defense in 40 years, and then we -- we unleash the american military to take down the isis caliphate, take down the world's most dangerous terrorists. we even confronted the rugds in syria without one american casualty and they drew the international line by force. we drew peace through strength. now my former running mate seeing war raging in eastern europe is signaling an ambiguous message and not even able to say

who he would prefer to see who wins in ukraine. i think the u.s. needs to give them more resources more quickly than biden has to repel the invasion. >> what do you tell your former colleague in the house republican conference who don't share this view? >> look, i respectfully disagree. ronald reagan in 1985 came to be known as the reagan doctrine. if you're willing to fight the communists in your country, we'll give you the tools to fight them there so we don't have to fight them here. joe biden has done such a terrible job explaining the importance of repelling the russian invasion and supporting on the military in ukraine and he's been delivering the equipment slowly, he promised 33 abrams tank that are are still not there yet and they continue to drag their feet on aircraft. >> it's half your party that

doesn't even want what he's been sending. >> number one, it's not half. >> number two -- >> the house republicans. >> i just think the skepticism of our support for the military in ukraine is more a reflection of a lack of confidence? joe biden as commander in chief than it is any other issue. >> you don't think it's donald trump also fueling skepticism? >> what this will take is leadership and having a president that says to the american people, look, it is in our national interests to see the russian military repelled from ukraine, not for joe biden talks about glossy goals of democracy, no. look, if russia overruns ukraine i predict you it would not be too long before the russian army crossed the border where our men and women in uniform would have to go and fight. >> poland. >> by crossing into an ally, poland, estonia, lithuania,

chuck, and i also believe by giving ukraine the ability to repel the russian invasion we would send a deafening message to china that the wider world would not tolerate for them to redraw international lines in taiwan or anywhere in the asia pacific. >> for the sake of the campaign, do americans deserve a verdict in trump's case before the polls, before the election? >> well, i -- i expect they'll get it. >> you'd like it see this trial take place before the election? the american public should know before the election whether these allegations are true in a court of law? >> look, i think the president should have the right to bring his defense in a court of law. >> and it should be speedy? >> if he's found to be guilty he has the right to pursue an appeal. >> do you think it's a mistake to delay the trial until after the election? >> i also think that the american people would be greatly heartened given the controversy and the evidence that's come out

publicly and the hunter biden laptop and all of the allegations and even news that broke in the last few weeks, the american people would be heartened to see the department of justice move against hunter biden and move against the accusations against the biden family and continue to pursue just as aggressively an investigation into president biden's mishandling of classified documents. we've got to restore confidence in the rule of law. >> want to talk a little more about your campaign which i'm sure you'll be pleased about and less about donald trump's legal issues. who is a pence supporter and how does it differentiate right now from a trump supporter. if you are a republican nominee it means you will win trump supporters at some point. right now they're not for you. how do you convince them? because he's angry at you, they're angry at you. >> well, look, i -- i think that the people around the country,

as i've traveled the last two years, have -- have -- have in the main, very humbling views about me and my family. i've gone stopped at airports, grocery stores and gas stations by americans of every political persuasion who thanked me for my service of my country. >> how many of them wore maga hats. >> were there people wearing maga hats doing that? >> look, i know the people in our movement, and i can honestly tell you that they're some of the best people in this country. they love america and they love our constitution, and i have every confidence as we carry our campaign forward and we articulate not only the way we kept faith with the constitution on one day, but our determination to lead our party on that broad, conservative

agenda that's delivered not just great victories for the republican party over the last 50 years, i have every confidence that this party will come together after a good and vigorous primary and we'll deliver a great victory in 2024. >> are you confident that if donald trump does not have the most delegates that he will concede the republican nomination? >> i -- i am confident that republican primary voters will sort all of this out in the months ahead. will he accept defeat? you saw him once not accept defeat? do you believe he will accept defeat in this primary if he doesn't have -- >> i understand your preoccupation with my former running mate. >> he's the front-runner. it's not a preoccupation. >> chuck, republican primary voters know the stakes in this election. they know that we've not just got to win, but we've got to steer our country back for the

things that made our country strong, prosperous and free and i'm confident that we'll have a standard bearer that will hold up the conservative values and i believe in all of my heart that i'll beat the nominee and that we'll lead our party and our country to full victory in 2024. >> you can see my full interview of vice president pence on nbc.com and you will see it completely untouched. as the country celebrates juneteenth, we take a look at the fight in reparations starting in the state of america whether america should pay its black citizens for hundreds of years of slavery, jim crow, and this isn't theoretical. this could start happening in california, soon. watch on peacock, youtube or right after this broadcast on nbc news now. when we come back it is not when we come back it is not uncommon narratator: the maman with the troublblesome hemomorrhod entersrs the room.m.

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this country, but according to our friends at axios, since 1980, about half of the nations in the world have seen former leaders jailed or prosecuted including in quite a few democracies. in fact, among leaders who have left office after 2000, there are 76 countries where we have seen leaders jailed or prosecuted. let's look at a few of these cases and i'll start with central and south america. in guatemala, we will start there. former president molina and roxanna valdetti both found guilty last year. port illo attempted to launder $2.5 million through u.s. banks. in panama, they've been called to stand trial in a massive money laundering probe and of course, that international corruption scandal in brazil took down president lula, but he was able to run for office again and win the presidency after his case was annulled. let's go to europe, in france,

former president nicholas sarkozy must wear an ankle bracelet for a year after he lost the conviction against vice president chirac. let's go to israel where bibi netanyahu is on trial for corruption charges even as he currently serve as prime minister and his predecessor served 16 months in prison for accepting bribes and obstructing justice. in south korea, former president pac gunye served five years in prison for corruption charges and just this week, silvio berlusconi passed away at the age of 86 and he, too, had brushes with the law and was investigated a lot and ended up with one conviction case of tax fraud in 2016 and donald trump wasn't even the former government leader to be arrested this week. meet nichola sturgeon, the former first minister of scotland and she was arrested

for financial misconduct and though she was later released without being charged ending further investigation. what happened to trump may have been unprecedented in the united states, but for other democracies and countries it's democracies and countries it's not exactlyly a (sirens)s) [due a at target i in 5!] copypy that. make a harard left dodown the alllley. netwtwork's got t you covere. [please e confirm requestiting back-upup.] -c-changing roroute. -g-go. roadblblock ahead.d. ...back upup, back up.p... reversrse! reversrse! nextxt level momoments, wewe're 30 sececonds out.. needed the next t level netwt. [northth corridor,r, hurry!] -comoming througugh! -or 3,3, let's go.o. the nenetwork morere busisinesses chohoose. transplantnt received.d. at&t bususiness. (vo)o) crabfestst is back a at red lob. when you c can choose e your c, and one e of three n new flavos like r roasted gararlic butter. ...t.this is notot your grana's crabfestst... .....unless grgrandpa's s got f. dadayumm! crcrabfest is s here for a a ld time. welcomome to fun d dining.

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welcome back. i want to pick up one part of the conversation that we didn't finish and this was this idea, hallie, on biden. should biden pardon trump? mark thiessen and daniel pletka who is a familiar face around the panel, i thought made a pretty cmpelling argument as to why maybe president biden ought to consider a pardon of trump, there would be a lot of political consequences and it comes as nobody believes trump. >> part in the days after the indictment with some of these if not overt suggestions of violence or at illusions for it, eye for an eye, there is after january 6th the very real threat that violence can occur because of something that donald trump may push, and i think that's where a lot of the concern comes in. >> kimberly, where are you on

this issue of pardon? >> i used to think that it was a good idea that nixon was pardoned in order to keep the country together. i now think it is one of the biggest mistakes that were made. >> i may share that view. would we been thinking about this today to say no one is above the law. >> we may be in a totally different place today if we did not have that and it was clear that there would be consequences including criminal ones for flouting the rule of law. i think that's one of the reasons. i think that would be a terrible idea and look, after what happened on january 6th with the prosecutions of the people who were there, i think that's one reason why we haven't seen the violence wh he was indicted. that's why we haven't seen violence everywhere. >> there are consequences. >> if there are consequences for them. >> nixon had accountability by resigning. he was disgraced and what ford is saying we don't need to disgrace him fourther to agree

that watergate was bad. there's no measure of accountable and the that's a different historical judgment. >> sve hayes, i'm not going to play the clip because we're low on time and ron desantis was trying to hit donald trump for being soft on abortion. in theory, maybe there is room to trump's right to beat him there on the issue at least in the state of iowa, but is that something that will work? >> i think iowa in particular and in the republican primary more generally, you will find republican voters who were pro-life and probably will respond to that kind of an argument and the question is whether the republican party is an ideological place anymore. it was so interesting to hear about the mike pence discussion, we ought to have the big debate. >> he wants to have a debate about what the republican party should be. >> and is the republican party still a limited government party? you heard that debate for eight years in the republican party. i think with ron desantis on the

abortion question, given what he's done in florida, it's sort of surprising that he hasn't run on it to this point. remember, he was sort of shy about it. >> it makes him less electable. >> they have to win in order to get to a general and it will not just be the issue of reproductive rights and the strategy of those who i talked to is to run to the right of donald trump and all of these culture wars issues which is where some of the ideology of the party is, on education and lgbtq+ rights and issues of abortion and to show that ron desantis can win on this issue. >> i've heard the argument, ted cruz tried this. >> it's the environment. we can go back to 2016 over and over again and we do see a fragmented field and the context is different and not only on those issues and he didn't build the wall which is his main argument in 2016. >> before we go, one year after

the landmark supreme court decision overturning roe invest wade we here at "meet the press" will be observing what it means for the future of the country. watch the meet the press spial this thursday evening at 10:30 eastern time on nbc news now and after that on demand on youtube and peacock. that is all we have for today. thank you for watching. we'll be back next week because if it's sunday it's "meet the press." enjoy father's day. ♪♪ ♪♪

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