career, family, finances and mental health. it's coming along. well, it can. national university. supporting the whole you. ♪♪ ♪ this sunday, my exclusive interview with former president donald trump. >> when you go to bed at night do you worry about going to jail? >> on the role he played in challenging the results of the 2020 election. >> were you calling the shots then, mr. president, ultimately? >> as to whether or not i believed it was rigged? oh, sure.

>> it was my decision. >> on the charges he's facing in the classified documents case. >> you asked a staff tore delete security camera footage so it wouldn't get into the hands of investigators. >> they're false. >> would you testify to that under oath? >> i'll testify. >> and how he would lead if he won in 2024. >> if would you fine federal legislation to ban abortion at 15 weeks? >> let me just tell you what i do. >> joining me for insight and analysis are, nbc news senior legal correspondent laura jarrett. new york times chief white house correspondent peter baker. >> and nbc news washington managing editor carol lee. welcome to sunday. it's "meet the press." ♪♪ ♪♪ from nbc news in washington, the longest-running show in television history. this is "meet the press" with kristen welker. >> good sunday morning. we begin this new chapter of "meet the press" after yet

another extraordinary week in american politics. house republicans announced an impeachment inquiry into president biden. the president's son hunter was indicted on gun charges and house conservatives doubled down on their threat to shut down the government. meanwhile, people close to president biden are increasingly worried his son's legal troubles could strain the president's focus on what's expected to be a razor-close election. it was against that backdrop that i sat down with the former president at his golf club in bedminster, new jersey. his first network interview since leaving office. we have extended the same invitation to president biden. mr. trump has been criminally indicted four times and faces 91 felony counts, but continues to hold a commanding lead as the republican frontrunner. i began by asking mr. trump what a second term would look like if he's re-elected. ■ talk about

retribution, are you talking about directioning your attorney general to go after your political know mes? >> when i'm talking about retribution i'm talking about fairness. these people on january 6th, some of them never even went into the building and they're being given sentences of many years. >> are you going to pardon those people? >> i'm going to look at them and i certainly might if i think it's appropriate. no, it's a very, very sad thing, and they're dividing the country so badly and it's very dangerous. >> mr. president, we will delve into that a little bit later on, but i want to stay on this idea on what you mean by retribution. are you looking to appoint an attorney general who will prosecute the people you tell them to prosecute? >> i'm looking to appoint an attorney general who will be tough on crime and fair. very simple. >> speaker mccarthy announced that he was launching an impeachment inquiry this week into president biden. do you see this as a part of the retribution that you see?

no, not at all. you look at terrible things that have been happening with respect to biden. comer and fantastic people and very legitimate people. i watched jamie comer just a little while ago talking about a lot of different facets of what's going on, and he was the one that said i guess there were 12 things, it looks like it's stone cold guilty and the gun charge is only one of the 12. he said this is the only one that doesn't implicate joe biden. >> so, my question for you, did you talk to speaker mccarthy about this house impeachment? >> no. >> tell him that he should open. >> no, i don't do that. he wouldn't do it based on me, no. never. >> did you talk to your republican allies on capitol hill and said you should support. >> they're more proactive than i am. they think it's terrible. >> do you think republican hardliners should abandon their threat to shut down the government over theirúq spendin priorities now that there is

this impeachment inquiry? >> no, i think it's a fair deal. we are $35 trillion in don't and we have to shut down our country. >> you would support that? >> i would shut down the government if they can't make an appropriate deal. absolutely. >> you are facing indictments. >> mayor garland said let's indict him. >> they indicted their political opponent. >> i want to hear from you on this. i want to know what's in your head. when you go to bed at night do you worry about going to jail? >> no, i don't. i don't even think about it and i'm built differently, and i've had people come up to me and say how do you do it, sir? i don't each think about it. these are corrupt people i'm dealing with. they're destroying the country. all i care is about making country great and making america great. look, these are political.

these are the indictments. these are third world indictments. the president of the united states sees what he's doing and we've had the likes of what has never happened before and you see it with the polls and i'm up on these people by 60 points and 59 points and i don't mean i'm at 59. i'm leading them by 59. you almost say why are they campaigning, i see a poll. i'm leading him by 60 points you say why are they doing this. here's what they did. they saw this happening and they went to the attorney general of the united states and he told them indict trump. >> there's no evidence of that. >> oh, look at all of the lies he's told. >> i want to talk on. >> kristen, wait a minute. i can say one thing? look at all of the lies he's told the last couple of weeks. he said he was at the world trade center and he didn't.

he said he drove trucks and everything he says is a lie, it's terrible and even his handicap and he said he's a six. he's not a six. >> i want to stay focused on you for the purposes of this interview because it's important that we hear from you about all of this. >> well, i'd like you to, but you keep interrupting me. mr. president, tell me what you see when you look at your mug shot. >> i see somebody that loves this country and me, that loves this country. i see tremendous unfairness. i think very few people would have been able to handle what i handled. >> by the way, do you think your former chief of staff mark meadows is still loyal to you. >> do you worry about him flipping? >> i didn't do anything wrong. >> want to ask you about the case related to mar-a-lago. a new charge is you asked the staffer to delete footage so it wouldn't get into the hands of investigators. >> it's false.

>> would you testify under that under oath? >> i would testify. >> it's a fake charge by this deranged lunatic prosecutor and he lost 9-0 and he tried to destroy lots of lives and he's a lunatic. it's a fake charge, but more importantly, the tapes weren't deleted and in other words, was there nothing done to him and they were my tapes and i could afford them. i didn't even have to give them the tape, i don't think. i think i would have won in court. when they asked for the tapes. they're my tapes and i could have fought them, i didn't have to give them. we didn't delete anything. nothing was deleted. >> so that's false? >> number one, the statement is false. much more importantly when the tapes came and everybody says this, they weren't deleted. we gave them 100% and just so you know, i offered them. i said if you want to look at tapes you can look at them. let's move on to january 6th and the allegations that you tried to subvert the election and again, i just want you to give

you a chance to talk about this because voters want to hear about this. the most senior lawyers in your administration and on your campaign told you that after you'd lost more than 60 legal challenges that it was over. why did you ignore them and decide to listen to a new, outside group? >> because i didn't respect them. >> you hired them. >> sure. you hire them and you never met these people and you get a recommendation and they turn out to be rhinos or not so good and in many cases i didn't respect them and i respected many others that said the election was rigged. you called some of your outside lawyers and you said they had crazy theories. why were you listening to them? was it because you wanted to hear? >> thought the election was at 10:00. >> you were listening to your instincts? >> my instincts are a big part of it. that's been the thing that's got enemy to where i am, my instincts and i also listen to people. there are many lawyers.

i can give you many books and there are books written on how the election was rigged and there are numerous books. >> were you listening to your lawyer's advice or your own instincts. >> i was listening to different people and when i edited all up the election was rigged. there are books that are written. >> were you calling the shots. >> molly hemingway wrote a great book. >> excuse me. molly hemingway who is highly respected and great she wrote a book, a best-selling book called "rigged." >> were you calling the shots then, mr. president, ultimately. >> as to whether or not i believed it was rigged? sure. it was my decision, but i listened to some people. some people said that. guys like bill barr when was a stiff, but he wasn't there at the time, but he didn't do his job because he was afraid. you know what he was afraid of? he was afraid of being impeached. he was petrified of being impeached? >> how do you not get impeached? don't do anything. >> now as you just heard, former

president trump referred to the indictments against him as biden indictments and they've been charged by a special counsel and according to the white house president biden has not spoken to the attorney general about them and the white house found out about them from news reports. as for the purchasement inquiry, so far congressional investigators have not presented any evidence that president biden has profited off of hunter biden's business dealings. i also talked to former president trump about his actions on january 6th and why he never sent help when the capitol was under attack. in our conversation he directly contradicted the sworn testimony of one of his aides who testified to the january 6th committee that the former president was so determined to go to the capitol himself after his rally that he grabbed the secret service agent inside. >> i wanted to go peacefully to

the capitol and the secret service who i have great respect for said sir, it could be unsafe. they didn't say because of riots. it takes one guy with bad intensions, okay? so i didn't have a dispute with them. you had that one person who said i grabbed the man around the neck? actually i wishv i was so stron to be able to do that. these are guys. >> you dispute that account? >> it's the crazest account i ever heard. i was in the beast and she said i was in the beast and the secret service didn't -- so i took a guy who is like a black belt in karate and grabbed his neck and tried to choke him. how ridiculous, just so you understand, and i have great respect for secret service, by the way, they're fantastic. the secret service said sir, it would be better if you didn't. i'd love to do it. they said it would be better. and so we went back to the white house. i spoke, and i made a very nice speech. >> tell you how it unfolded. were you in the dining room? >> i'm not going to tell you,

and i'll tell people at an appropriate time. >> what did you think -- in the moment -- >> did you see the statements i made in the oval office and just outside of the oval office. >> absolutely. i was there that day. >> our police are great. we love our police. >> that was at 4:00 in the afternoon, more than -- >> i don't know. >> three hours after the attack started mr. president. >> i want to know -- >> by the way -- >> nancy pelosi. >> why would i tell you that? listen, you don't want to talk about that. >> she was in charge of security and turned down 10,000 soldiers, if she didn't turn down the soldiers, you wouldn't have january 6th. >> did you call military or law enforcement? >> i'm not going to tell you anything. >> let me put it this way, i behaved so well. i did such a good job, nancy pelosi turned down 10,000 soldiers. if she didn't do that. >> nancy pelosi doesn't have the

authority that you have as commander in chief, though. >> listen to me kristen. listen to me. i understand that the police testified against her, capitol police, great people. they testified against her and they burned all of the evidence, okay? they burned all of the evidence they destroyed all of the evidence about nancy pelosi. >> what do you say to people who wonder why you as commander in chief you have authorities that nancy pelosi doesn't have. >> she has authority over the capitol. >> why didn't you say help in the moment, though? >> frankly, i assumed that she took care of it. she turned down. >> when you realized that the national guard wasn't coming? you don't realize anything until quite a while. national guard aren't coming. i asked it to be there three days in advance, and she turned it down. >> she says that that request was never officially made. just so you know. >> let me just tell you. the mayor -- >> let me tell you. the mayor of d.c. gave us a

letter saying that she turns it down. >> i'm talking the day of. >> wait a minute. capitol police said that he wanteded it and nancy pelosi wouldn't accept it. she's responsible for january 6th. >> nancy pelosi is responsible. and the january 6th committee refused to -- >> you have authorities that no one else has as commander in chief. do you think you showed leadership? yes. absolutely i did. >> okay. mr. president, if you were reelected would you pardon yourself? >> i was given an option to pardon myself when i left. people said would you like to pardon yourself? i had a couple of attorneys that said you can do it if you want. i had some people that said it would look bad if you do because i think it would look terrible. i said here's the story, these people are thugs, horrible people, fascists, marxist, sick people. they've been after me from the

day i came down the escalator with melania, and i did a great job as president. great economy, great jobs, great this, great that, rebuilt the military, space force, i could go on forever. let me tell you, the last thing i would ever do is give myself a pardon. i could have given myself a pardon. don't ask me about what i would do. the last day i could have had a pardon done that would have saved me all of these lawyers and all of these fake charges and these biden indictments and political. they indicted, they want to arrest their political opponents. only third world countries do that. banana republic? ready? i never said this to anybody. i was given the option and i could have done a pardon. you know what i said? i never even wanted to think about it, and i could have done it and all of these questions you're asking me about the fake charges, you wouldn't be asking me because it's a very powerful thing for a president.

i was told by some people that these are sick lunatics that i'm dealing with. give yourself a pardon your life would be a lot easier. i would never give myself a pardon. >> even if you were reelected in this moment? it's very unlikely. what did i do wrong? i didn't do anything wrong? >> a little bit of context here on mr. trump's allegations he ordered troops in the days leading up to the january 6th attack. the defense department said the former president never gave a formal order to have 10,000 troops ready to go to the capitol. it is know fair to blame speaker pelosi, the claim she turned down quotes was completely made up. when we come back, former president trump explains how he would handle calls from within the gop for a federal ban on abortion. doors lead us to places we've never been. your dedicated fidelity advisor can help you open those doors.

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in the last election more than a quarter of voters said the issue of abortion mattered most to them. just behind inflation and the economy, and last night nine republican candidates were back in iowa speaking to the faith and freedom coalition, a reminder of how potent the abortion issue is in that early state. mr. trump didn't attend the event, but i asked the former president how he would handle abortion in a second term. >> i do want to talk about the issue of abortion which is. >> okay. >> -- important to a lot of voters all across the country. just this week women in idaho and tennessee, i don't know if you saw this, filed suit against their state saying their lives were put at risk after they were denied abortion services because their state's restrictive laws put in place after roe was overturned. so my question for you, mr. president, is how is it acceptable for women's lives at

risk and doctors put at risk of breaking the law. >> ready? >> it's a long answer. i hope you have time. >> i have time as long as you have. >> roe v. wade, people including democrats wanted it to go back to states so that states could make it right. roe v. wade, i did something that nobody thought was possible and roe was terminated and put back to the> democrats aren't saying that. democrats are not saying that. does it bother you though that women say their lives are being put at risk? do you feel you bear any responsibility because you say you are responsible for having roe v. wade overturned. >> it's a very polarizing issue. because of what's been done and

because of the fact we brought it back to the states we're going to have people come together on this issue. they're going to determine the time because nobody wants to see five, six, seven, eight, nine, months, nobody wants to see abortions when you have a baby in the womb. i said with hillary clinton when we had the debate, i made a statement, rip the baby out of the womb in the ninth month, you're allowed to do that and you shouldn't be allowed to do that. >> no one is arguing for that, that's not a part of anyone's argument u mr. president. >> the democrat dechls are able to kill the baby after birth and nobody wants that. >> democrats don't want that. i want to know what you want, and i want to know what -- would you sign federal legislation that would ban abortion at 15 weeks? >> no. let me just tell you when i'd do. i'm going to come together with all groups and we're going to have something that's acceptable. right now, to my way of thinking, the democrats are the radicals because after four and five and six months, but -- but

you have to say this, after birth, you have new york state and other places that pass legislation where you're allowed to kill the baby after birth. >> mr. president, i want to give voters who are going to be weighing in on this election a very clear sense of your stand on this. >> think they'll like me. i think both sides will luke me. what has to happen, and cristen, you're asking me a question. what will happen is you will come up with a number of weeks or months and you're going to come up with a number that's going to make people happy because 92% of the democrats don't want to see abortion after a certain period of time. >> if a federal ban landed on your desk, if you were re-elected, would you sign it at -- >> are you talking about a complete ban? >> a ban at 15 weeks? >> people are starting to think of 15 weeks and that seems to be a number that people are talking about right now? would you sign that? >> i would sit down with both

sides and i would negotiate something and we'll end up with piecing that issue for the first time in 52 years. i'm not going to see i would or i wouldn't. desanctous would support that. >> i think what he did is a terrible mistake. we'll come up with a number, but at the same time, democrats won't come up at six month, seven months, eight months and allow an abortion. >> when you talk about negotiating a lot of people think to themselves this is an issue they care about deep in their hearts and they know where they stand and they want to be where you stand. anti-abortion groups are looking for clarity from you. let me ask you to put a fine point. should the federal government should have abortion restrictions or should it be left up to the states? >> i don't think you should be allowed to have abortions well into a pregnancy. >> what about the question i just asked you? >> no. we're going to agree to a number

of weeks, months or however you want to define it and both sides are going to come together and both sides -- both sides and this is a big statement, both sides will come together and for the first time in 52 years you'll have an issue that we can put behind us. >> at the federal level? >> it could be state or it could be federal. i don't frankly care. >> you're not committed to a ban. >> i would say this, everybody, including the great legal scholars love the idea of roe v. wade terminated so it would be brought back to the states. >> it sounds like that's what you think, too. >> from a legal standpoint, i ng it's probably better, but i can live with it either way. it's much more important the number of weeks is much more important, but something will happen with the number of weeks, the amount of time afterwards, you can't do it, and you know what? the most powerful people that are anti-abortion are okay with

that now and you know what? they were aren't okay with that each a year ago. your former vice president mike pence believes a fetus should have constitutional rights. do you believe that, mr. president? >> mike pence said something about 15 weeks, too, which was a big change for mike pence because mike pence has no exceptions, and i have exceptions, by the way. i think people should have exceptions and if it's rape, incest or the life of the mother, i think that you should have rights. >> does the fetus have constitutional rights? >> i will tell you they think most people, most republicans are willing. you go, life of the mother, rape, incest, i think most of them are there. >> should a fetus have constitutional rights, mr. president? >> i don't know what he's saying because before he wanted, you know, you couldn't have an abortion. >> what are you saying? what do you think? >> excuse me. now he's saying 15 weeks. wow, where did that come from? that's a radical change. look, something is going to

happen that will be good for everybody. i'm almost like a mediator in this case. they wanted roe v. wade terminated because it was inappropriate. we got it done. something's going to happen and it's going to be a number of weeks and something's going to happen where both sides will be able to come together and then we'll be able to go on to other things like the economy, our military -- >> are you saying a federal ban with exceptions? is that what i'm saying? >> you can't put words in my mouth like that. we want to talk about this issue and i think very productively. it could be a state ban. it could be a federal ban, but democrats want that, too. democrats don't want to see abortion in the seventh month. i speak it a lot of democrats. they want a number. there is a number and there is a number that's going to be agreed to, and republicans should go out and say the following because i think the republicans speak very inarticulately about

this subject. i watch some of them without the exceptions, et cetera, et cetera, i said, other than certain parts of the country, you can't -- you're not going to win on this issue, but you will win on this issue when you come up with the right number of weeks because democrats don't want to be radical on the issue, most of them. some do. they don't want to be radical on the issue, and they don't want to kill a baby in the seventh month or the ninth month or after birth and they're allowed to do that and you can't do that. >> one important fact check we do want to highlight, abortions later in pregnancy are exceedingly rare. when we come back, we turn to foreign policy, the war in ukraine and whether mr. trump ukraine and whether mr. trump would consider sending e u.s.

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you wanna take what was given to you and you wanna build it. and you wanna pass it along. if i can do that, i would have done well. that's why we're here... to help make it happen. welcome back. the republican party's biggest fight may be on the issue of ukraine where republican candidates led by former president trump are turning away from the party's traditional national security roots and questioning the u.s.' commitment to the war.

i asked mr. trump about what he believes are the stakes in ukraine for the united states. do you think that our security, the united states security is linked to ukraine's security? >> i think that europe has to do more. we are in for $200 billion and it affects them much more than it affects us. >> so you do think it's -- >> i think they're taking advantage of a stupid president. >> biden should say you have to equalize and catch up. europe is the about the same size if you add the countries up and biden should say to them like i did with nato, you know, nato, they all owed money. get your money in, and we had over $430 billion put in almost immediately and the head of nato, stultenberg, secretary-general, nice guy, he said to me the most amazing thing i've ever done and said it publicly, too. >> let me ask you about your

strategy. you have said you want to end this war in 24 hours. you saw the meeting between kim jong-un and president putin. do you think that complicates your strategy if you were reelected to try to end this war? >> no. it would have been easier if the war didn't start and you'd have hundreds of thousands of people living, most importantly, but i can get it done, and i can get it done quickly. some people say you'll end the war in 24 hours and they worry that means president putin will get to keep the territory. >> think a fair deal for everybody. >> no. it doesn't mean that? a win for putin? >> that r that's something that could have been negotiated and crimea and other parts of the country that other people could have expected to happen. they could have made a deal where there's less territory than russia's already taken, to be honest and you could have made a deal where nobody was killeded. they had a deal and they would have had a ukraine country. now nobody knows if ukraine will

be totally taken over. i will say this, something's going on, and it's not good for ukraine. >> i want to ask you about something president putin said about you this week, and i don't know if you've seen it, this was very recent. we surely hear mr. trump says he will resolve all burning issues within several days including the ukrainian crisis and we cannot help, but feel happy about it. do you welcome that? >> i like that he said that, and i would get him into that room and zelenskyy into a room and i would get a deal worked out and it would have been a lot easier before it started. essentially for four years i kept them from doing anything because, you know what? i will tell you this? ukraine was the apple of his eye. i said don't ever do it. don't ever do it. he would have never done it. again, oil crisis, he wouldn't have done it because of me, but oil prices. the prices were so high that he

had so much money so he had all of this money to prosecute the war. the one who drove up the prices was biden. >> given that president putin has bombed maternity wards. >> terrible. all terrible. >> 20,000 kids killed by russia, mass graves, do you welcome his support? his all, but endorsement? >> look, i had a very good relationship with him and yet nobody was tougher on russia than me. i stopped nord stream 2 and that was the pipeline until i got involved and nord stream 2 and people that were sophisticated, military people and political people never heard of nord stream 2. i had it ended. the pipeline was dead, biden came in and they approved it. there was nobody tougher than me with russia, and yet i got along with putin. let me tell you, i got along with him really well and that's a good thing, not a bad thing. he has 1700 nuclear missiles and

so did we. that's a good thing. getting along is okay, but i got along through strength and the war would have never happened. the war would have never happened. now what's happened it's so bad the oil price is so high, it's hard to get it stopped. the oil price is so high when he goes above $50 and $60 he makes a lot of money on the war. now it's a humanitarian thing and a lot of different reason, but i will get that war stopped very, very quickly. it's too bad you have to wait so long. >> let's talk about another region you talked about, china. if you were to cut a deal between president putin and president zelenskyy, do you run the risk of emboldening china to invade taiwan? >> no. not at all because china, he's another one i got along with, too until we had the china virus come in. once covid came in, it was -- i made a great trade deal with china one of the greatest deals ever made for the farmer and

manufacturers, i don't each talk about it because once covid came in i didn't want to talk about anything, i was a much different person and what happened to this world, not our country, the whole world, what happened with covid, and it shouldn't have happened. it shouldn't have happened. what china did to the world was so bad, but i had a great relationship -- >> would you send troops to taiwan? >> i had a great relationship with president xi, a really great relationship and he was going to stop fentanyl from coming in. he was going to criminalize it if you made it. in china they have a death penalty for drug deals. he was going to make that with fentanyl dealers, too, and then the election didn't work out and he never did that. >> i know you've been asked this, and if china were to invade taiwan have you made a determination, since voters are about to go to the polls would you send the u.s. military interest taiwan if president xi were to invade? president biden says he would? >> i won't say because if i said i'm giving away only stupid people are going to give -- i

heard the other day desanctimonious said he was going to do this or he was going to do that. why is he saying the strategy in you can't say that. so when you asked me that question i would never say that because you give away all your options. >> but you don't take it off the table? >> i don't take anything off the table, no. >> you can see my full, unedited interview with the former president following the broadcast at meet the press.com and we also talked about the economy, the uaw standoff, the hunter biden indictment and the potential running mate among many other issues and we do have a fact check available and much more reporting at nbcnews.com and when we come back the panel is here with their reactions to my interview with the former president. are you guys watching? this is my favorite part. you watching? are you watching? hank, shh! okay, time to get your own bed, hank. chewy has great prices. spoiler, his father's half man, half cyborg. hank! i'm just happy we're watching a movie instead of a baking show. shh!

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reverse! next level moments, we're 30 seconds out. need the next level network. [north corridor, hurry!] -coming through! -or 3, let's go. the network more businesses choose. transplant received. at&t business. welcome back. the panel is here. nbc news senior legal correspondent laura jarrett, peter baker, chief white house correspondent for "the new york times" and co-author of "the divider. trump in the white house" and

managing washington editor carol lee, thank you to all of you for being here for my very first "meet the press." i am so honored to have all of you. i want to start off by getting your takeaways of what we just witnessed. and peter, i what is your takeaway? >> i was struck by how defiant he is. defiance of you, defiant of the facts and a bulldozer about facts and lies. and you were fact checking him all along wait and he is creating a different galley that has been successful for him so far in leading the republican nomination fight. >> energizing his supporters, that's for sure. carol, what was your takeaway? >> on the legal stuff, you can see why former president trump has gone through a number of lawyers as you see in these indictments and been investigated. and politically speaking big picture, he's very clearly running in a general election and barely mentions his gop rivals and focuses almost entirely on president biden.

>> a very great point. and, laura, what's your takeaway? and there were a lot of legal points. >> there were a lot of legal easter eggs for us to chew on. one of the most fascinating parts of the entire extended interview was what he refused to answer to you is what he refused to answer is what did he do in the dining room on january 6th. >> why do you think that was so -- >> there was so much he was willing to go into which was for a criminal defense attorney the nightmare scenario when you have these four criminal trials which are a long ways off. and there's plenty of time for him to talk and do sitdown interviews and he's boxing himself into positions that he doesn't need to without knowing where thesis cases are going. when he tells you, you know who i listen to? myself. that's when his attorneys are saying that he wants to be able to rely on his lawyers no matter how misguided their advice was

about trying to steal the election, when you say i relied on myself that is fodder for cross-examination. >> let's delve into that a little bit more deeply because there was some wiggle room around the edges, but how significant was that moment? >> that was a huge moment and of course, he's saying now in a sitdown interview month away from the trials that he'll testify. i would be shocked if any attorney was going to endorse that view, but to say -- to say so definitively, i relied on my own instincts that video will be replayed for a jury, some way somehow. >> let me bounce off of what laura is saying because yes, he asked he was willing to testify and i asked about the mar-a-lago documents case in which he is alleged to have directed a staffer to delete surveillance footage that shows boxes being moved around. he denies that off the bat. and says he's willing to testify. and tries to pivot to doing something he's not accused of which is deleting the video.

he does say that is false. what do you make of that? >> there is a lot of evidence that it's already presented in terms of messages on this very question. and it was part of the superseding indictment. so he is contradicting his own staff, people who have talked to jack smith about it. he's trying to say, if they were my tapes and i couldn't delete them as if somehow that gets him off the hook. if you direct someone to do a crime, it doesn't matter if they follow through. you committed a crime under jack smith's theory. >> you have a lot of reporting from inside the white house, and their strategy there. the president is trying to keep his distance from these indictments and yet some of his allies say at some point he's going to have to shift his strategy. how do you think the white house democrats are processing all of this? >> well, what democrats have told us in over the course of the last several weeks and months is that as these indictments pile up and the president has made a very concerted decision that he's not

going to weigh in publicly on them and that they're going to keep this distance there. the question that democrats raise is whether or not voters are seeing that difference. they're seeing that distinction. and former president trump is trying to make clear and make sure that they basically think that these are biden indictments. and president biden doesn't want to weigh in. and the concern is that that's a real gamble, that politically, if the president is not challenging this and saying that the justice department is independent and now they're talking about it and then that cedes that ground to trump and he allows him to change voters' minds. >> peter, weigh in on this point. how risky is the strategy of keep hands off and say hey, i'm going to stay focused on my campaign. >> right. >> and my agenda and not talk about this.

>> i think it's frustrating for democrats and liberals and progressives are upset he's not -- and carol is right, there's nothing, but danger ahead because he looks like he's doing exactly what trump is saying. they're biden indictments. there's no evidence that he has anything to do with this other than having appointed an attorney general which is what the president does and he was feeding it and going after him giving what he wants. >> it was notable that the former president took aim at jack smith, the special prosecutor who has charged him. >> called him a lunatic. >> which we've heard him say before and later judge chutkan issued a request for a narrow gag order. so, within that context it doesn't seem like he's changing his rhetoric at all. i mean, talk about the significance of that issue and his ongoing attacks against the president. >> he's not changing his rhetoric at all and prosecutors are zeroing in on interviews like this one, mining them for things like that because they're trying to say, look, not only ir there a security risk for the witnesses and prosecutors and the judge herself who has

received threats and it taints the ability to have a fair trial. that's why there is a narrow gag order and what they do want is for the judge to say you cannot talk about the witnesses or make threats against anyone during the course of this trial. we'll see what she does..tv she's probably unlikely to do that, but she may haul him in and scold him again. she may do it again. she may have the potential risk and speaking of that. peter baker, another revelation, and he acknowledges for the first time and yes, there are conversations about him potentially pardoning himself in his final days in office. it's not clear if he has the authority to do that. so that would be untested. but what did you make of that revelation? >> that's fascinating, right? so that they understand that he, in fact, was in criminal exposure. he had exposed himself criminally and that there might be need about a pardon. you won't talk about pardoning himself if you haven't done anything, and things were volatile and tempestuous, and

he had been impeached a second time. it's just an understanding of just how exposed he was. >> i do want to talk about the other legal issue we've been tracking throughout this week. hunter biden indicted on gun charges, carol. and you have some new, exclusive reporting out of the white house on that. >> that's right, kristen. what people close to the president have been telling us over the last several weeks is that, you know, this is a very sensitive issue. it's a family issue. very few people talked to the president about his son. only a couple of aides and only when they have to. politically speaking, what people close to the president say is they're not worried that voters will look at this and say oh, hunter biden was indicted. i'm not going to vote for president biden and what they are worried about is the emotional toll this takes on the president and meaning that he's distracted and weighing on him heavily and that creates a scenario where the president is more prone to missteps and mistakes, the kind he can't afford to make because republicans will seize on them because voters are evaluating that the president given he's 80

years old is competent to serve another term. and it's very sensitive and there are a lot of concerns. >> one of the other issues looming over all of this is something that i talked to the former president about, the issue of abortion and laura, before we get to the politics of it, legally, as i raised with him there are a number of cases that are being brought throughout the country, women and doctors saying that their lives are being put at risk now that roe is overturned. just set the legal landscape for us. >> right. so i think the former president's most enduring legacy perhaps at least one of them will be putting three supreme court justices on the nation's highest court that struck down roe, and there's a piece of him that seems to take pride in that, and to use that to trumpet his position, but there is another piece of him that seems to realize sort of the peril of that position and kicking it back to the states as he said. he sort of couched it as everybody was okay with that. everybody was not okay with that because the natural output of

that means that states can put in place highly restrictive rules which result in people even having medical issues and still not being to obtain an abortion. >> politically speaking, this is such a complex and complicated issue. and, carol lee, another complex and complicated issue that we'll be watching, obviously, foreign policy. and you heard the president there not say that ukraine's security is linked to the u.s. he declined to say that. and he didn't say if he would send troops into taiwan if china were to invade. and i know you have reporting on that this morning. >> first, i want to fact check a couple of things that the president said on ukraine. it's not true. the u.s. spends much more than the president -- much less than the former president said and europe spends much more than the president said. and on the nord stream 2 pipeline which is a natural gas pipeline from russia to germany,

that was already largely completed by the time president biden took office, and the decision to whether or not that goes forward is germany's, obviously. >> fact check. >> in terms of china, what we learned this morning is that president biden's national security officer jake sullivan has been secretly meeting over the weekend in malta, a third country with the chinese foreign minister and that's significant because this is a precursor to a meeting between president biden and xi jinping this fall. >> fantastic new reporting there. big picture, peter baker. i'm giving the final word to you. we have gotten criticism for just sitting down with former president trump. he is the former president. he is facing four indictments. as journalists and just set the scene and backdrop why there is still news value and value from the public to hear from him? >> he is a challenge for american journalists. it cannot be for a person running for president of the united states without ever being challenged by a tough,

independent interviewer and that's i think an important part of our system. obviously, the challenge for us because he's going to spout out one thing after another and what you're done here is edit it and make sure people understand what's real and not. >> i cannot thank you enough for being here, laura, peter and being here, laura, peter and carol. there's challenges, and i love overcoming challenges. ♪ when better money habits® content first started coming out, it expanded what i could do for special olympics athletes with developmental needs. thousands of bank of america employees like scott spend countless hours volunteering to teach people how to reach their financial goals. it felt good. it felt like i could take on the whole world.

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before we go, i want to take a moment to thank you, our viewers. it is an incredible honor to beó sitting in this chair, and i feel the huge responsibility it carries. i also want to recognize all the women, all of the people of color who have been pathfinders to make this moment possible, as well as all of the journalist who have mentored me along the way. when my colleague andrea mitchell applied for her first job at a radio station in philadelphia in 1967 she was told the newsroom was no place for a woman. well, she talked them into hiring her for the overnight shift. i am here because she and other fearless women never stopped fighting for their places in the newsroom. now all five sunday shows are moderated or co-moderated by

women. so to martha, margaret, dana and shannon, i am incredibly honored to join you on sunday mornings. i also stand on the shoulders of the first moderator and co-founder of this broadcast, martha roundtree, who had the courage to launch this program back in 1947. here's what she had to say accepting a peabody award on the mission of "meet the press." >> as long as the press of america is free, america will be free and what we have tried to do is to bring the press conference, the heart of our free press to the whole nation. let us never forget that information belongs to the american people. and it is that information which "meet the press" has been trying to bring each week into the homes of american people and inform the public to make it a strong public and "meet the press" is dedicated to that cause. >> truer words have never been spoken. that is all for today. thank you for watching and we'll be back next week because if it's sunday, it's "meet the press."

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