captioning sponsored by cbs >> brennan: it's sunday may 0th, this is "face the nation." >> several shots fired. >> brennan: the country is reeling from yet another deadly school shooting. this time eight students and two teachers were killed and 13 injured at santa fe high school just outside of houston on friday. >> this has been going on too long in our country. too many years. too many decades now. >> we'll have the latest on what motivated the 17-year-old attacker to take his father's shotgun and revolver toe stage a massacre at his own high school. >> the red flag warnings were either nonexistent or very imperceptible. >> we'll hear from houston police chief who says he's hit rock bottom when it comes to gun violence. then as the senate intelligence

committee issues a report that sides with the intelligence community that russia did medal in the 2016 election, special counsel robert muller's investigation hits one-year anniversary. we'll talk to the top democrat on that senate committee virginia's mark warner. plus we'll hear from white house economic advisor larry kudlow about a new deal with china on trade. and plans for the president's meeting with north korean leader kim jong-un are on shaky ground as the north korean's balk. we'll have analysis on that and all the political news of the week ahead on "face the nation." good morning, welcome to "face the nation." across the country americans are mourning again and asking why a 17-year-old shot and killed ten victims in friday's massacre. we begin our broadcast with cbs

news omar covering the story in santa fe, texas. omar? >> good morning, margaret. santa fe high school is still an active crime scene even though the suspect is in custody. they know what kind of guns the shooter used where he got them, but what they don't know is why. the sights and sounds of friday's shooting are all too familiar by now. >> shouldn't going go through this at my school. >> [ owe maizing grace ♪ >> as community mourns investigators are trying to understand the actions of 17-year-old dimitrios pagourtzis. yesterday his family issued a statement offering prayers to the victims while also saying of their son, we have learned from media reports seems incompatible with the bouie love. dimitrios pagourtzis had no prior run ins with the law, though disturbing social media posts have surfaced including images of his black trench coat, recalling the clothes worn by the columbine high school

shooters back in 1999. yesterday the "los angeles times" quoted the mother of one santa fe victim saying her daughter had turned down the shooter's advances a week ago. but the only public comment from authorities so far is that dimitrios pagourtzis, quote, did not shoot students he did like so he could have his story told. other questions include whether charges will be brought against the shooter's father who was reportedly the legal owner of the shotgun and pistol used. despite the high number of casualties the school itself had seen well prepared for such an attack. school resource officer, john barnes was the first person to confront the shooter, the retired houston police officer was shot and is recovering in the hospital after surgery. classes are cancelled monday and tuesday for all santa fe schools. grief counselors will be here. this is the end of the school year, so students will be going to graduation and also going to some of their fellow classmates' funerals.

margaret. >> brennan: thank you. the city of houston is just right up the road from santa fe. houston police chief joins us he's expressed his frustration with gun violence in a facebook post that went viral this weekend. chief, thank you for joining us. i know a friend of yours, john barnes retired houston police officer is one of the armed guards at the school during the shooting is someone you just visited with, can you tell us what his condition is? >> well, thank god that he's in very serious condition but he's stable. i can tell you that we expect him to recover, his family is there with him, his friends are there with him. they're very grateful for all the prayers and all the messages they have been receiving from around the country and the world. >> brennan: chief, because he was there, armed guards were there in fact this school had won safety awards in the past, why didn't all those measures prevent this attack? >> you know, that's part of the ongoing investigation as to what

we can do better. but we know one thing. if it wasn't for those officers that ran toward the gunfire for john and his assistant chief and others, that actually discharged their firearms and returned fire leading to the suspect surrendering, who knows what the casualty count would have been. they are heroes. but now look ahead to see how we can do better next time, because there will be a next time based on the inaction of the elected officials. >> who specifically are you faulting for not taking action? >> let me tell you, people at the state level and federal level and too many places in our country are not doing anything other than offering prayers. i'm grateful that i'm working the city with a mayor who is transformative in sylvester turner, local governments are starting to make a difference. i think that the american people, gun owners, vast majority of which are pragmatic and support gun sense and gun reform in terms of keeping guns in the right hands. we need to start using the

ballot box to take the matters out of the hands of people that are doing nothing there are elected into the hands of the people to see that the will of the people in this country is actually carried out. >> brennan: in this specific instance, the shooter didn't have a known criminal record, his father had legally obtained the guns that he used in this shooting. they weren't semi automatic weapons. so specifically what laws do you think need to be changed that would have prevented this atta attack? >> well, i think -- this one specifically one of the things that we need to consider is, if you have firearms in your home and you do not secure them and you don't secure them in manner that can preclude someone from grabbing them and taking them and carrying out this carnage, that there is a criminal liability that attaches. when there's skin in the game for all weapons owners including myself, i think that people have a different outlook. so we've got to make sure that everyone stores them in

responsible manner that there are significant penalties when they fail to do so and people die as result of that failure. >> brennan: you're saying you believe the father of the shooter needs to be held legally accountable? >> i believe that anyone that owns a firearm that doesn't secure it properly ends up in the wrong hands and used to kill innocent people, that that should carry some significant consequence we need to think about that on the national level across this country. >> brennan: chief, thank you for giving us your insights. >> thank you. >> brennan: our next guest is senator mark warner, democrat from virginia. senator welcome back to the show. >> thank you. >> brennan: last time you were on with us after the parkland students held a march on washington calling for greater gun restrictions. around that same time you said, i don't think we can sit through more of the mass murders and not take action. will you take any this time? >> my heart absolutely wants us to take action. but i understand why people are

so frustrated obviously condolences to the folks in santa fe. but i think people across america want more than condolences, i don't think there's a single bill that will stop these tragedies. but there needs to be a combination of increased school security which i would not include in terms of arming teachers that is the wrong direction. i think more mental health training for particularly these troubled youth, boys in the high school age area. and i think we need reasonable restrictions on guns. background checks as i've said to you last time i was on i think we need to look at assault weapon bans. we're the only nation in the world that has this many guns awash in our society and consequently we have more of these tragedies than any other nation around. and my hope would be for some of my republican colleagues, that they would allow their positions to evolve. >> brennan: yours did on

assault-style weapons. >> a decade ago when i was governor i was supported by the nra. but the nra as more and more of the tragedies, virginia tech or sandy hook, parkland, now texas, there's host of others that have been faded from our memory, same old-same old is not going to get it. put the notion that guns are part of the problem in a reasonable set of rules, i think vast majority of gun owners would support as well. >> brennan: but nothing before november in this congress? >> again, i don't know how my colleagues who won't be open to any of these solutions can face down victims or victims' families when they come in time and again and say, please, take these actions. reasonable restrictions. my hope is that maybe this will spur action. but unfortunately if history is the prejudge there will be angst and anguish unless we change our congress we won't get the changes we need. >> brennan: the president is

tweeting about "new york times" report that he is trying to discredit saying that foreign governments other than russia offered to provide help during the campaigns specifically with social media manipulation. is this something that the senate intelligence committee is looking into or will look into? >> we'll look into all of these claims, counter claims. the thing that i find amazing is that somehow the president -- >> brennan: do you these reports are credible? >> there are credible components of the "new york times" report. some of the information is new to us but we're going to continue our investigation. but what is remarkable to me is that the president somehow seems not to understand that when a foreign nation tries to interfere in our elections, that's wrong. that's illegal. the validity of the two arab nations potentially intervening, time will tell how much truth there is there. but in regards for example to russia, we had just this week our intelligence community bipartisan came out and

reaffirmed the findings of the intelligence communities overall assessment, russia massively intervened and they did so to help trump and hurt clinton. now, the president -- >> brennan: still no conclusions on cooperation. >> we do know. that we have scene repeated actions by at least donald trump junior and others of being interested in receiving dirt on clinton. whether it was the famous trump tower meeting, outreach to mr. popadopoulos. now a pattern with other nations reaching out to try to interfere. the president who continues to be obsessed with this, what part of -- what part of the basic tenants of our democracy you don't have foreign powers intervene does he not understand? >> brennan: i want to ask you about something the president is publicly complaining about. he has said again yesterday that the fbi or department of justice has in his words, been infiltrating his campaign for political reasons. he called for those agencies to

hand over documents to congress. to your knowledge has there been any such action by those agencies? >> i have no knowledge of such actions. i do know this. that when the president or his allies in the house start going out and trying to threaten too they want to reveal -- >> brennan: you are talking about chairman -- >> individuals want to try to reveal classified information about the identity of an fbi or cia source that is against the law. the first thing you learn when you get involved with the intelligence community is that you need to protect sources and methods. that if you were to out or burn such an agent, that person's life could be in jeopardy. and i find it outrageous that the president's allies are in effect playing fast and loose with confidential information. don't take my word. take the president's own fbi director mr. ray who said, if you go out and start exposing

classified information about informants, that you will make america less safe. i find this totally outrageous on some of the actions of these allies. >> brennan: just to clarify when you are saying that there is this -- it would be illegal to disclose this information. there are now published press reports with at least one if not more alleged fbi informants and their names. are you saying that congressional sources leaked this information? >> i'm not saying the congressional sources leaked. >> brennan: you don't know if there was illegal -- >> there is investigation into -- if they did leek and we have seen from some of mr. tru mr. trumps allies a constant pattern of leaking in my mind, this crosses the line that up until now, even some of the president's allies have respected a bit the integrity of our community. but this kind of ongoing assault from the president and his allies about the fbi, about the department of justice, where they attack him, that leads to

era where people can start saying, i'm going to decide which laws i want to follow and which laws i don't. you may see that kind of result taking place in this circumstance where it appears that some of the president's allies, i don't want to follow the law that says i have to keep classified information secret. if we get into that realm, we're in dangerous, dangerous territory. >> brennan: if it is classified information that they have are you saying that there is some credibility to this this idea, the president's version of events is that there's an fbi spy in his campaign. that is different from an fbi informant or somebody who was a whistle blower. >> i have no information. >> brennan: what part of this is true? >> i have no information that would indicate that the president's tweets or theory of the case is at all based in truth. i do know this. that classified information, identity of agents is

sacrosanct. when people start being willing to try to reveal that information, i'm not saying that has happened but clearly the president and some of his allies have been calling for the fbi and justice department to come forward with those names, the fbi and justice department have tried to avoid that because that's just not the way they operate. that we're getting into areas that are not traditional in any sense of the word. >> brennan: senator, thank you for your time. >> thank you. >> brennan: we'll be right back in one minute with more "face the nation." it's easy to think that all money managers are pretty much the same. but while some push high commission investment products, fisher investments avoids them. some advisers have hidden and layered fees. fisher investments never does.

and while some advisers are happy to earn commissions from you whether you do well or not, fisher investments fees are structured so we do better when you do better. maybe that's why most of our clients come from other money managers. fisher investments. clearly better money management. >> brennan: we turn to larry kudlow director of the national economic council is the top economic advisor. larry, good to to have you on the show. >> wonderful margaret, thank

you. is the threat of tariffs still on the table? >> we've made a lot of progress. perhaps even more progress than we might have thought when we went to beijing a couple of weeks ago. the communique makes that very clear that we're going to stashly reduce the u.s. trade gap. here is the deal. we want china to open up markets, lower tariffs, lower barriers, give us a chance. we also want china however to change their behavior with respect to technology transfers and also the theft of intellectual property rights. are we going to get everything? i don't know. but i will say this. we're making terrific progress and i think the meetings here in washington were very positive. and the president himself has become very optimistic and supportive. >> did he take that threat of $150 billion in tariffs off the table? >> look, i don't think we're at that stage yet. a lot of numbers being thrown around, 200 billion, we're not

at that detail point. >> brennan: that's what the trade deficit you're talking about. >> look, we want -- president insisted we lower the trade deficit. again the details will be down the road. these things are not so precise, macro members plays a big role. but our view is china must open up, they must become fair traders. they have not been. the rest of the world knows they have not been. and china has got to stop the theft of intellectual property and the forced transfer of technology. those are our family jewels. and we can make deals on this, i believe we can make arrangements that has not yet been completed. but early going, tons of energy coming, tons of agriculture, tons more manufacturing, that's all in this communique. >> brennan: let's talk about the communique. the language in there says china has agreed to significantly increase its purchases of u.s. goods. how much and what are they buying? >> we'll see. >> brennan: no specific

agreement yet? >> what you're getting here is, the negotiations are proceeding very well. we're on the same page. too early for exact, precise details. maybe i got ahead of the curve but the number 200 billion deficit reduction which is something that president likes has been around by all the people on both sides. but it's too soon to lock that in. i just think the direction here is the key. i just want to add, if we can get success here, if china opens up, if we move to much more balanced fair trading this is going to be terrific for the american economy. we're the most competitive economy in the world right now. after the tax reduction, after the regulatory roll back. >> brennan: but the risk of still putting tariffs on that could hurt agricultural exports. >> i beg your pardon? >> brennan: the risk of putting tariffs on that could hurt agricultural exports for this country is that still something american farmers need to worry about? >> look, they need to keep an

eye on that, absolutely. but let me just say this. tariffs are part of any negotiations and tariffs maybe part of any enforcement. you cannot do this kind of major change without using everything that's in your quiver. i think the president has made that very clear. it would be better to go ahead, market openings, let american companies own their companies in china so we don't have to hand over our technology advances. let them stop the -- but if we can drive -- we're going in the right direction here. and i think that is the absolute key point and again why do you do this? you do this to grow our economy better. do you this to help a lot of the different sectors. by the by, my views china will be helped if we -- >> brennan: you've always been a growth guy, larry, i've known you a very long time here. but our cbs news nation tracker poll gives credit tolt president for some of the things you've been talking about in terms of growing the economy. more than two-thirds of those we

asked say policies are somewhat responsible for the economy. but nearly 88% say the president is mainly looking at out for the interests of big business and wealthy, less than half say he's looking out for the middle class. that's the opposite of what he campaigned on. >> i don't know where that comes from. because it is the opposite. i might add, that kind of rhetoric and partisanship is not part of our plan. let me raise one point. >> brennan: it could become a political issue going in to november. the president has campaigned on this promise of the forgotten man and women f. there is a perception that he's only helping out business that hurts. >> middle income, working folks are already benefitting. wages are rising, jobs are rising, confidence is rising everywhere you look. i have argued a million times if you lower business taxes for large and small businesses it is

precisely the middle income wage earner who will benefit the most. i think there's a lot of false rhetoric out there. i've seen surveys, though, i don't want to live and die in polls. trump is getting very high marks on economic growth. we've gotten through the 3% threshold that many of the critics said we couldn't do. federal reserve bank of atlanta says it could be 4% in the second quarter i'd be happy with three. i'm just saying. all that is working very well. middle income people. the tax bill, don't forget, we doubled the standard deduction. we improved the tax credits. these are all designed to help middle class folks. but i don't -- i happen to like successful people. i'm perfectly happy to use the jfk-ronald reagan idea that rising tide lifts all. >> brennan: a trickle down guy. >> it's incentives. don't punish success, reward

success. you've heard me say this for about 25-something years. you know some, all i'm saying is, right now we're a year, year and half into it it looks like we're working or it's working. >> brennan: larry, good to talk to you. we'll be back in a moment with a look at history making alliance between the americans and the british. what's the value of capital? what's critical thinking like? a basketball costs $14. what's team spirit worth? (cheers) what's it worth to talk to your mom? what's the value of a walk in the woods? the value of capital is to create, not just wealth, but things that matter. morgan stanley

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they thought someday it could become fuel and power our cars wouldn't that be cool? and that's why exxonmobil scientists think it's not small at all. energy lives here. >> brennan: you don't hear of many real life hollywood ebbeddings but we want to celebrate as prince harry married actress meghan markle. yesterday more than 240 years of u.s. overthrew the crown. it was a ceremony of hope and unity. ♪ stand by me stand by me ♪ >> brennan: on a day of plenty of sunshine, 100,000 people lined the streets to watch the royal procession outside windsor castle but just the newlywed

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>> brennan: we'll be right back with lot more "face the nation" including our political panel and author and historian, john meacham will join us to discuss his new book. stay with us.

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marshall tuck for state superintendent. marshall tuck. ." >> brennan: welcome back to "face the nation." i'm margaret brennan it is time now for some political analysis. reihan salam is executive editor of the national review. a policy fellow at the national review institute and now a contributing editor at "the atlantic." amy walter is national editor of the "cook political report." and starting next month will be the host of wnyc's "the take away" congrats. jamelle buoy at slate and cbs news political analyst and anne gearan is a white house correspondent at the "washington post." amy, let's start off with you. you have all this forecasting of what could be happening in congress, what might be happening with the president that could influence the outcome in november. you've been writing about what isn't happening, the republicans

aren't defecting they're not running away, now that speaker ryan has chosen to retire, whatever we're going to call it. is the forecasting really kind of wrong at this point that there will be democratic wave? >> i think the challenge always in this era is figuring out what's noise and then what's actually happening. because there's chaos trying to separate that out. from reality. and it seems like we have number of different factors to look at. the first is what you talked about with lady kudlow the fact that the economy is doing really well that the president gets higher ratings, i was handling the economy than overall job approval. which is more important. the way that people think he's doing on the economy or what they think about him as president? and how that translates to how they vote are they going to pick the economy or say, the economy will be doing well but i don't like him personally and i'm going to cast my vote that way. then you have to look at what we've seen in the polling but also what we're seeing on the

ground. we know that in all these special elections republicans -- democrats have out purchased where they normally should be. the average vote outperformed by almost ten points. so is that the right number or the polls? all these numbers will get mushed together. the real question, challenge for paul ryan as we get into these next couple months here of what is going on in washington, can congress stop fighting amongst itself? i think that is when republicans have biggest challenge with the health care fight, president was fighting with republicans, tweeting against republicans. now we have immigration. may have trade. those things if they split the party i think only benefit democrats. one last thing i think the attention that is being focused especially in the media on the stormy daniels or on russia, is actually helping republicans because what's not getting through is what the democrats want to talk about which is, the

health care challenges, the wake of health care bill that never really passed or does it fix the health care system and rising costs for some other goods. they want to be able to make that case, they can't get that through. >> you've mentioned immigration we know the president will hold immigration roundtable later this week. i want to play a sound byte something he said this week that caused some problems. >> we have people coming in to the country, trying to come in, we're stopping a lot of them. but we're taking people out of the country, you wouldn't believe how bad these people are. these aren't people. these are animals. and we're taking them out of the country at a level and at a rate that's never happened before. >> brennan: the president says he was talking specifically about gang members from ms13 that he was not speaking at large about immigrants, certainly now the mexican government took it, jamelle, that the not what a lot of people heard.

said that was unfair criticism of it. >> the idea that that's unfair criticism i think ignores the fact that for the past three years now the president has made this consistent linkage between hispanic immigrants and crime. hispanic immigrants and disorder. in his campaign announcement speech, they're being crime, rapists, some i assume are good people. in speeches and addresses and off the cuff remarks again and again the president has made that linkage. even in this particular case where he's responding to a hypothetical question about ms13 gang member he doesn't -- his language, he doesn't -- he doesn't talk specifically about ms13 he talks about "these people commitment is vague and slippery and unclear exactly what he means. but that is in keeping with his past language. i think that when evaluating these comments and evaluating imprecision, i'm not sure we should give the benefit of the doubt towards the president only referring specifically to this

one group of people and having said that, even if that was the case, i do think serious problem with the president dehumanizing any group of people, even if they are hardened criminals. it opens the door to really problematic actions from federal law enforcement and take that as a cue for how they should approach gang members are how they should approach people that are within their enforcement per view. setting aside the political controversy other what the president means, i think there's a real sort of pragmatic and ethical problem with the president speaking about people as, quote, animals. >> brennan: it caused diplomatic incident, anne? >> the president keeps doing this through imper p session. it is clear when you listen to the whole conversation that the woman sheriff who was speaking right before him was speaking about what she -- her lived experience of what she does when she can identify or when her

agents can -- from time to time see somebody that they would like to be able to report to federal authorities for possible deportation. but are not able to fully report that because of a conflict between state and federal law. way too complicated for what the president wanted to talk about clearly. because his response then is, these people are animals. and that's what the meek an government hears, it's what central american government hear as well. and i don't think that this is something that the president cares to fix. i mean, we don't know for sure. but he doesn't -- he keeps doing it. he keeps using charged language which appeals on a political level not only to his own core supporters but potentially to republicans who were in the middle of their own immigration issues.

we saw different kind of split on immigration over the farm bill on friday. we can talk about that, too. but this is a -- immigration and what congress does or doesn't do about it is one of the things that's hanging fire before the 2018 mid terms. and the president has views on that. >> brennan: is this a useful mechanism to continue to return to, the mantra about immigration and immigrants? >> i do that it's a centrally important issue. incredibly important part of the president's appeal. to give you a bigger picture sense the politics of. gration have changed pretty markedly over the last three years. this was there belief a bipartisan deal to be had. democrats wanted a path to legal status. and republicans wanted essentially a large amount of guest worker, low wage, migration. that was believed to be this workable consensus. the trouble is that actually republicans who believe that with a very narrow slice of the party that was not in fact

representative of the party's rank and file. so then there is the possibility of some ordeal maybe but thing is that then you have president trump as reaction to that deal from the right. seeing an opportunity that there was a rupture between elite of the republican party and base. he comes in and offers a more hard line stance. as it happens, though, many of his own supporters also support a path to legal status for some number of an authorized migran migrants. problem is how do you course correct again? if you see president trump as making one correction to a false understanding of what was the republican conchemical weapons position, then you have to have some other course correction. problem now however is that on the democratic side over intervening decade there has been a pretty marked change. one of the false claims that the president made is that he's deporting more of these people than ever. but we do know that president obama was far more successful in deporting criminal unauthorized migrants, right? the thing is that that has actually become a very hotly

contested issue on the democratic side. with things that used to be just very taken for granted, you had all sorts of democrats including liberal democrats felt that was common sense measure those things are very hotly contested by activists on the left. the politics of immigration are very much in flux l. is a new center to be found, i believe the president can find it but to do that he cannot use rhetoric of this kind. he has to make it clear that i'm making a distinction between dangerous migrants and also those that pretty much everyone across the political spectrum decided very broad swath of people, we need to separate this population from this other population. but he hasn't adjusted to that partly because he had a big political kick says with one thing, and then that's what you do, you stick with the move that appears to have worked even when politics on the ground have changed. >> brennan: he had that chance to do that when we had the debate about daca. i guess this was a few months ago where democrats were willing to kind of come on the wall, i think had president said, great,

i'm going to call that victory, get money for a wall, get money for border security, do a deal with daca that -- >> i don't think so that's true in an important way for this reason. basically the fundamental problem is there has been this illusion that if you deal with the dreamers, if you deal with the daca eligible population that will be enough. what republicans found is that, no, we will not get what we see as substantive concessions on, for example, workplace enforcement and what have you. because basically on the democratic side there's this believe that actually the dreamers are entering wedge, we care about the parents of the dreamers, too, this much larger population. the idea of daca, idea of the dreadreamers was rhetorical movt truth is that people are interesting in protecting a biederman swath. republicans who took that premise, then found themselves frustrated. everyone needs to reel leases that the debate has moved on. >> brennan: we have to move on from this debate take a quick break. we'll be right back with more of our panel in just a moment.

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for our farmers and their families. ♪ only tylenol® rapid release gels have laser drilled holes. they release medicine fast, for fast pain relief. tylenol® >> brennan: we're back with our political panel. anne, i want to pick up with you. secretary of state mike pompeo is supposed to be unveiling plan b for iran they don't like the iran deal as negotiated, tore it up, theoretically, the president did. what are we going to see? >> so, tomorrow secretary of state is going to layout what they refer to as the way forward.

plan b is a better way to frame it. in the absence of the iran deal, there's no clear road map for primarily european allies, a few others as well. to understand what it's going to mean for them to do business with iran or not. are they going to be subject to u.s. sanctions if so, when, how big would those sanctions be. then what are the other potential diplomatic complications if the european signatories to the iran deal are successful in keeping it as a smaller and frankly less important global construct without the united states. they're in the middle that have negotiation with iran right now. it appears that at least at this point there's enough of the deal left that it will be in iran's interest to continue it in name only, which then we come back to how does the united states deal with that. what we expect secretary pompeo

to talk about tomorrow is his view that there is less to divide the united states and its european allies including about iran than meets the eye. the bounds of agreement on what iran is doing wrong are very commonly understood that there are ways to address that through further sanctions probably on the ballistic missile development in iran which is worrisome, certainly to the europeans as well. but we do not expect him to give great precision or great comfort to european governments and european businesses that are facing a choice here. that's by design. the united states would like those countries and companies to be feeling a little uncertainty right now. >> brennan: they certainly are. amy, let me ask you. you heard the white house make some announcements about family

planning changes, title ten funding, what does this mean for november? why did they choose this fight now? >> this has been a battle that's been raging quite some time especially on the republican side, defunding planned parenthood. this is not defund planned parenthood, a clinic that provides abortions or refers patients to places that do lose federal funding essentially. if you're going to do abortions you can't get federal funding you have to operate that. this is an issue that are hoping to motivate their base, the conservatives who have been asking for something like this. it could also motivate the other side, this is going to be fascinating, too, in the fight for control of congress a lot of the -- path for democrats goes through a lot of suburban districts where issues i think like guns as we saw at the top of the show and planned parenthood will play a starring role. that may be more definitive in favor of democrats than it is in favor of republicans and some of these rural or small town.

>> add to that, an important part of democratic otherizing against a president does involve suburban white women, frankly. it is groups like indivisible groups across the country, the core activists are people who might not have been engaged in politics prior to 2016 but had a strong reaction against -- candidate trump now president trump some of that is tied to sort of his behavior towards women. his rhetoric towards women. something like this, i think amy is right could very well energize this core group of democratic activists. >> brennan: we know the president will be attending campaign for life gala something they want to put exclamation point on here. reihan, does it do the opposite of the intention and motivate the democratic base? >> well, that may well be true, partly because there has been a lot of misrepresentation of the nature of the rule. so there have been many iterations of this proposal over the years, i this think amy described it very well. it's being described as gag

rule, idea that you cannot even counsel abortion that's not in fact the case. what you cannot do to refer someone to an abortion practitioner, also partly about basically colocating these facilities. so that literally you're providing these title ten services in the same place where abortions are provided. the idea that we need to separate those two functions, now the trouble is that, basically you have institutions that are very well capitalized institutions that have been around for a very long time. that rule was in fact implemented that would mean kind of real substantive change. that's also why the bush administration wound up shying away from this. it was critical moment in the iraq war they had to pull back. remains to be seen if that will happen in this case, too. >> brennan: or how and when this will be implemented. we'll be back in a moment with pulitzer prize winning author, jon meacham. when hope over came division and fear. stay with us. i'm dianne feinstein and i approve this message.

i thought after sandy hook, where 20 six and seven year olds were slain, this would never happen again. it has happened more than 200 times in 5 years. dianne feinstein and a new generation are leading the fight to pass a new assault weapons ban. say no to the nra and yes to common-sense gun laws. california values senator dianne feinstein >> brennan: we close today with author and historian jon meacham his new book is "the soul of america: the battle for our better angels." thank you for coming on "face the nation." >> thank you. >> brennan: i was intrigued

that you wrote this book because of a phone call you received in the wake of the violence in charlottesville last august. >> nancy gibbs editor of "time" magazine asked after the violence if i had anything to say. one of the thing i wanted to look at was, to what extent is this moment in american life an aberration and to what extent is it the most vivid manifestation of strains in our national character that are not admirable but perennial. i think the answer is, that we're basically in a moment where the worst instincts are playing center stage or attracting the most attention. but that in some ways is really the rule more than the excepti exception. >> brennan: why do you think the worst instincts? are you putting this on the person or are you putting this on the moment in the. >> well, politicians are far more often mirrors of who we are than they are molders that's why the molders are so extraordinary. franklin roosevelt, ronald reagan those are different kinds ever figures. i think that president trump in

is president because we have a climate of fear in the country. he certainly took advantage of it. he exacerbated it. and fear is an unreasoning, edmond burke said this, nothing makes us so unreasonable as fear. we're a moment of great economic and cultural transition, unquestionably. but basically when we have listened to our better angels, more widely understood the assertion of equality we've grown stronger. we've also always grown stronger the wider we've opened our arms. whether the issue sim gration or free flow of ideas or just open dissent. those are the moments when we are most broad minded that we grow stronger. >> brennan: in a lot of the examples you write about you talk about sort of the office holder having a sense of histo history. their place in history. even though they all had their own personal issues you detail them. >> absolutely. >> brennan: do you believe that president trump has a sense of

the office? >> not really. no. i don't. i don't think he has a sense of ultimate role he'll play in the moral life of the nation. president roosevelt when he was running for president in the fall of 1932 the knock sometimes asked him to define the presidency kind of basic job interview question. fdr said it is not an engineering job, it is a place of moral leadership. it sets a tone. it sets a sense of our dispositions of heart and mind. and the best presidents from thomas jefferson again through president reagan through president obama have been presidents who have spoken in vernacular of hope instead of fear. who have pointed ahead instead of at other groups. and this is not a sentimental point. it's not a partisan point. i voted for democrats, i voted for republicans, i plan to continue to. but if you look at it in a clinical way, the moments we've come through from the 1920s when the ku klux klan was

refounded, marched down pennsylvania avenue in august. there were 3-5 million members. oregon, indiana, colorado had significant clan presence. we got through that. we got through it in part because the court's ruled in the right way, press did the right thing, ultimately it's about us. about the people. it's republic is only as good as the sum of its parts. that's the special thing about self government. >> you say that, that essentially the people get the government they deserve in some ways. >> harry truman said it so i'll take it. if i'm confused with truman that's a good thing. we do. and so we have to decide to what extent do we really want to be open-minded and open armed. and since it's "face the nation," st. augustine a multitude of rational beings united by the common objects of their love. what we have to decide in this incredibly divisive time, what

do we love in common. in areas in the past to reconstruction through backlash against civil rights, americans have decided that guaranteeing fair play for the other person is the best way to guarantee fair play for themselves. that's the american way. >> brennan: in terms of these moments that are revealing, these moments of truth, you talk about in the wake of oklahoma city, and president bush speaking out against the nra because of language they use to attack law enforcement officials. you talk about other similar moments there, has president trump really confronted a moment like that? are you saying that charlottesville in august 2017 was that missed opportunity? >> absolutely. remember the -- took the president several days to decide whether he was going to side with the neonazis and clans men against or the people who were protesting the neounderstand sees, he said there's blame on many sides, blame on both sides.

that was more than a missed opportunity. it was really a failure to live up to the promise of his office. >> brennan: there's no regaining that? >> there's always hope. always hope. intellectual honesty, people don't like this. people try to decide which tweet they're going to set their hair on fire over i understand that. but you have to -- intellectual honesty compels us to say, that there's always hope. and we have been in dark, dark periods before but fort sumter was pretty bad. >> brennan: a moment of hope. we will be right back. stay with us.

it's the story of our nation. john chiang's father came here with little money, but big dreams for a better future. now john has a chance to make history. a champion of the underdog, john took on wells fargo when it ripped off working families. and against the odds, he helped saved california from financial disaster during the great recession. ...leaving more to invest in progressive priorities like education, healthcare and affordable housing. john chiang. the proven, progressive leader we need for california's future. >> brennan: that's it for us today. we'll see you next week. we want to leave you this week with a tribute to the ten victims who were killed at santa fe high school on friday.

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