and modern agenda for change. in this journey, i will never lie to you. i will never tell you something i do not believe. i will never put anyone's interests ahead of yours. and i will never, ever stop fighting for you. >> good morning and welcome to "am joy." this week donald trump tried to convince voters to forget the trump they've come to know over the last year and instead get acquainted with a kinder, gentler version, but pay attention to the man behind the curtain, because while trump is attempting, the guy he's just put in charge of his campaign signals that trump's fearmongering appeal to his far right base is still moving full steam ahead. steve bannon joins team trump from his job as chairman of bright bart news, where as v

"vanity fair" reports. the announcement was welcomed by members of the so-called alt right, who the daily beast writes this week, see in bannon a media-friendly ethno-nationalist follower. trump alongside headlines like these. there's no hiring bias against women in tech. they just suck at interviews. kaby giffords, the gun control movement's human shield. seriously. birth control makes women unattractive and crazy. and this is sure to be a hit among african-american voters, six reasons pamela geller's muhammad cartoon contest is no different from selma. joining me now, joan walsh, former george w. bush aide, pollster and radio host, and hugh hewitt.

thank you all for being here. happy saturday. hew, i'm going to come to you first, my friend. you and i have talk over the years sort of about what the republican party wants to do versus what it's able to do in these campaigns, and one of the things that i think is true is long-term republicans can't win with white voters alone, right, and they can't win with the far right alone. what does bringing in steven bannon, who is a part of the althoualt right, how does that help grow the donald trump base? >> well, i think media all week have been putting far too much emphasis on a man i've ever met. i don't read breitbart and that's inside the manhattan elite to focus on bannon. kelly sure she's been a guest on your show, she's wonderful and well respected across the board, but

you're right, you can't win with just anglo voters, which is why marco rubio is six points up in florida, why rob portman has run away with it in ohio, why republicans across the united states are reaching into diverse communities and doing very, very well. they don't try to just win with anglo-american voters. i love donald trump in youngstown, ohio, this week, milwaukee suburbs, in louisiana, who has no voters for the clinton foundation because hillary won't go there, he's making an appeal for african-american voters and i think it's a good thing. >> here's the thing, hugh, it's one thing to say a place with only 1% african-americans and he's done that now twice with no black people anywhere within 40 pli miles of him, yeah, i want african-american votes. you say kellyanne conway is a good hire. i've had her on, she's a good pollster, but you announce her at the same time you're announcing steven bannon and you can't ignore him.

he is now essentially the ceo of the campaign. this is a guy who's presided over headlines like these. bill krystal, republican spoiler, hate machines, curt schilling, lesbian bridezillas, bully shop owner or religious beliefs, hoisted high and proud the confederate flag, that will not be ignored, no matter how much you want to focus on kellyanne, people are going to focus on breitbart. you can't just ignore it. >> i think the left is overselling this a lot. >> he's the ceo of the campaign. they will get to know who breitbart is, because this is something you can't ignore. >> i don't think so, joy. you can beat this drum all day long, but breitbart is a very marginal site with a lot of paid views. >> he's now running the trump campaign. i want to go to you on this. you have been involved in presidential campaigns and in politics for a long time and

you, too, are a great pollster, terrific pollster, i would argue, i think of you a bit more highly than in terms of kellyanne, even though she's great. can you hire someone like this, bring him into your campaign and pretend he's not there? >> no. and if i could paraphrase new hampshire debate marco rubio, donald trump knows exactly what he's doing, joy, and if you want to understand and everyone wants to understand what he's doing, all one needs to do is understand three words, follow the money. donald trump, i think, has recognized this election has gotten away from him and he's going to try and cash out. and that's why once news came out a few months back that he was thinking about a media empire, an alternative to fox news, this is exactly what he's trying to do. i'm almost to the point, joy, i'm convinced he wants to lose the election, he needs to lose the election in order to allow all the trump supporters and followers to have an outlet. it's going to be the third

respe presidential election in the row that they lose, trump tv is coming up next. >> bruce bartlett, you've been involved in the conservative movement for a long time and worked with republican presidents. what do you think of fernand's idea here, and it's not just fernand saying this. we're starting to hear maybe what trump wants is not the white house, but the angered and disgruntled base that he's built to go ahead and lose and then come to him and some sort of future media endeavor. do you think that's what he's doing, or do you think he's trying to be president? >> he's absolutely given up on being president. the appointment of steve bannon is a certainty of that, but i think there's another thing here, as well. i think he wants to not be embarrassed on election day. i think he's going to have to spend a lot of time in red states that should be in his pocket. i mean, he was in louisiana just this week. now, no republican should have to spend one minute in the state of louisiana to carry that

state. so he's having to shore up red states that most republican candidates, romney, mccain, they had in their pocket on day one. he's fighting in places like utah, the reddest state in the union, and i think he's doing this partly to make sure he carries some states and does at least as well as ross perot did. >> you know, joan, and i get what hugh is saying, because the idea of hiring kellyanne conway was to try to help shore up women voters. he wants to make sure he doesn't lose catastrophically, probably, and white women are really important to this strategy. can the kellyanne conway hire obscure the rest of it? >> no. it can't. and it shouldn't. i mean, and i don't think it's meant to, to be honest. i think this is kind of a jekyll and hyde strategy where kellyanne goes on tv, tries to reassure us there's a new donald trump, he wrote his own speech and is full of compassion and

wisdom now after 14 months of racism and mayhem, but steve bannon is a signal. we've called euphemistically the alt right, which is a nationalist movement, it truly is, and steve bannon is behind it, steve bannon is somewhere who abandoned ted cruz simply because he wept to the border and gave out soccer balls to some of the refugee children last year. that was beyond the pail for steve bannon. i know him, i've met him several times and exchanged barbed e-mails, so kellyanne conway can take trump out and talk in an incredibly insulting way last night, you have no jobs, you're poor, your schools suck. >> all african-americans are poor. >> definitely, we all know that. that's condescending, that's not going to work, but steve bannon can reassure the white nationalist side of the campaign he's with you, he's with you, don't worry about it. i think the media angle is

definitely there, but i don't think trump wants to lose, i don't think he want expects to lose, i really don't. >> i think long term in the interest of building the republican party, which everyone around the table agrees we need a functioning two-party system, do you think that divorcing the publican party from white nationalism, doesn't that have to get done at some point and adding steve bannon doesn't do that, hugh? >> couple things, someone get bruce some coffee. the reason donald trump is in louisiana, a lot of people are dead, thousands are homeless. >> he was there for 49 seconds handing out play-doh, how does that help? the governor of louisiana said they didn't want distractions of presidential candidates with entourages in the way. >> bruce saying he's campaigning in louisiana to win louisiana is just silly. glad to see joan is fighting

with steve bannon, that means he's a real person and is out there. i just never have, and i think, again, media is obsessing on this because it's a fun narrative, the idea he's going to start trump tv is a fun narrative. look, hillary clinton is treating him seriously. the rest of the panel might not, but he's going to close and that's the narrative in september, trump closing a ten-point gap and we're going to come into the debates and america will decide based on the debates, because the clinton foundation is going to be the story of september. >> you want to talk about people no one has heard of. let me allow -- that is my point with steve bannon, he was announced in a giant letter written by paul manafort in his way out the door. i want to let bruce bartlett respond to what was said, hugh says it's silly to focus on trump going to louisiana. your response, sir? >> well, it's just quite obvious to anybody who doesn't drink the kool-aid, as hugh does, that

trump has no viable path to the presidency. and one reason for this is because over the years the republican party has systemically alienated every single minority. it's the whites only party. now, if you're the whites only party, you cannot get minority votes. your only path to victory is to outrage the white nationalists, to try to pump up the turnout among the only base you have, which is only white people. and that's basically what trump is doing. >> fernand, on the numbers, there is this kind of theory, the shaun trend theory, that you can find another 5, 6 million white voters and essentially negate the idea of the rising latino vote. is that theory viable? could trump win that way and get out enough white voters with the strategy he's got right now to win? >> you know, joy, i think he could if it were a popular vote

election, but we elect presidents through the electoral college and i think with the battleground states in play now, the theory breaks because there's not enough in some of these key states. the other problem donald trump has, joy, is even with white voters, the new york times reported that educated white voters, single white women are abandoning the trump campaign and he can't afford to have any erosion on that front, so that's why i think the strategy, which is his only hope, is a nonstarter. i think donald trump is looking at this like a poor development deal. he's got to pull out and salvage what assets he can, the money he can recuperate and his brand going forward with the space that he's built, which there will be some folks with him no matter what. remember, it's a rigged system. >> i'm going to give you the last word on this, joan, the other question and the flip side of the question is whether democrats are becoming too confident and looking at this circus atmosphere around donald trump and the election is over. is there risk to that? >> absolutely, i think there's

real risk and democrats are starting to talk about that. i want to say to hugh, i still take donald trump seriously. the one thing that lets me sleep at night, to get out the missing white voters if they indeed exist, you need a ground game. the reason they are missing is no one is reaching them. donald trump thinks that the sound of his siren voice is going to get them out of their homes and drive them to the polls. you and i, i think all of us know, that's not how it works. politics is really specific. the ground game matters, especially with the obama team. cannot survive with one office in florida, you know, these swing states where republicans are crying, people come and run a ground game. >> and have a campaign. i'll end on this. the other thing, voters google now and there is a lot of information out there for people to find. trust me, people are finding out what breitbart is, about the shirley sherrod situation, about smearing acorn and getting rid

of it. but we will see if hugh is right or if the rest of us are right. thank you very much for bruce bartlett, the rest of the panel, back later in the show. coming up, donald trump finally gets into the tv ad game. stay with us. i just want to find a used car without getting ripped off. start at the new carfax.com show me used trucks with one owner. pretty cool. [laughs] ah... ahem... show me the carfax. start your used car search at the all-new carfax.com. oh, hey, jamie, can you hang back a sec?

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illegal immigrants convicted of crimes get to stay. our border open, it's more of the same, but worse. donald trump's america is secure. terrorists and dangerous criminals kept out. the border secure. our families safe. change that makes america safe again. >> the trump campaign launched its first tv ad on friday after

months of claiming his campaign didn't need to run commercials, trump finally shelled out $4 million on his first round of ads. a paltry sum compared to clinton's $61 million spent on general election ads alone. the ads will run in florida, ohio, pennsylvania, north carolina for the next ten days. thank you for being here. hugh, you saw that ad, it's pretty dour, it's talking about hillary clinton's america versus trump's america, it's got a lot of military in it. who is that ad, in your view, intended to target? >> steelers fans. they are running $200,000 worth of ads in pittsburgh, they are going to have to speak very slowly. those ads are going up in florida, pennsylvania, ohio, and wisconsin. they are the four swing states upon which the electoral college map, has trump given up? no. he's targeting everything at pennsylvania, he needs pennsylvania, if he doesn't win pennsylvania, it's over. he also needs florida. rob portman is running away with

the campaign there, but wisconsin and pennsylvania are tough. that's where the ads are going. they are dour, they are serious, they are playing to the worry about the wave of refugees that's swept over europe, they are playing to the insecure border and economic insecurity in anglo america. so good electoral strategy, good place to start. i would note that all those tens of millions of dollars that hillary has spent has not moved the needle on her negatives, has barely got her a lead in some of these states like iowa, she's a handful of points up. >> it's interesting, jamil, as hugh says, these are all states that are crucial. any republican that wants to win, it's tough to do it without these states. you have to win ohio and florida, this is what you do, but let's talk about ohio just a little bit. trump is spending most of the

money that he's spending there, $716,000 in the columbus area of ohio, little bit in dayton, other parts of ohio. ohio is not a border state, does not have a flooz of refugees coming over the border, it's not a state where that seems to be the primary issue. do you think issues of, you know, migration fear will work in a state like ohio? >> i think it's possible. all along trump has been promising to bring back industries to areas that are populated largely by poor, white, working class families. >> there's nothing in the ad that's focused on that. >> here's the thing, the fears that ad plays upon, you know, target not just steelers fans, as hugh talked about, but us browns fans, hugh, but really what you got here is, you know, immigration used as a tool to trigger fears about the economy. i mean, yeah, willing to sacrifice any brown people or black people that you may offend by using such an ad in order to trigger those fears, you know,

so, hey, these immigrants are flooding across the border, they are going to take jobs, commit crimes in your neighborhood. even if it is ohio, doesn't matter. >> you wrote a book i recommend, j.d. vance's book i'm going to read, as well, that hugh talked about, sounds like a terrific book, but you wrote a book and talked about how these sort of new deal grandchildren of the new deal kind of turned against the democratic party and a lot is in the states like pennsylvania and places like ohio. >> right. >> but do issues of border and that sort of militaristic vibe you see in that ad, does that speak to the loss of manufacturing, that kind of a message that trump did earlier in his campaign that's not in this ad? >> yeah, i think that's a really important missing piece, joy, i don't know why that's not there, but this is an ad that steve bannon, to go back to our earlier segment, could have written, and it plays on the fears that trump has tried to ignite in this white working class.

so even though they are not plagued by people coming over the border, even though there are no syrian refugees in ohio or pennsylvania, this is designed to make white people feel very, very afraid of crime, of migration, of the future. >> can it work? >> again, it works with the same, you know, 30% of the vote that he has. >> already worked. so, fernand, on that same point, because florida, again, a state that does not have a migration problem, actually cuban americans who are sort of the dominant migrant group and puerto ricohas no problem, they can vote here, et cetera, so those are the two largest i guess you could call it nonwhite groups except for african-americans in the state of florida, and the ad buy you're seeing there, heavily focused on orlando, which is an interesting choice. what do you think of the way that this add buy is playing out? a lot in west palm beach, tampa, places like orlando. is that a smart way to advertise

across florida, and is the amount enough, just about $1.4 million in florida? >> candidly, no. if he's trying to gin up his base voters, those should be in north florida markets, jacksonville or pensacola, not so much in south florida because it's only going to alienate minority voters that will take offense. look, i agree with hugh this is a good ad for the republican primary. problem is, the primary is over and the only strategic element to this that i can think of, joy, in looking at this message is donald trump is a catastrophic hedge on something happening between now and the election, the dreaded october surprise, god forbid an attack on the united states so that he can simply say i told you so. but it doesn't speak to the better angels of the american nature and i think that's why you see these adjectives, whether they be dour, doomsday, that kind of surround this type of ad. i'm not sure this is going to

work for the general election. >> hugh, i'm wondering why the trump campaign didn't mimic the man of steel ad, which i think has been the strongest ad on the trump side of the ledger so far in the campaign, just really laser focuses on manufacturing. why do you suppose that in their first foray into advertising, particularly since they are doing it in ohio, in pennsylvania, in sort of the rust belt of the country, why do you suppose they didn't go for a manufacturing focused message in their first ad buy? >> every ad is manufacturing focus. when you talk about workers coming in, i'm from warren, ohio, like jamil, browns fan, i'm a season ticket holder, we had to rush the microphone and get it from you broncos people, joy. >> hypocrisy. something you can't do. don't go after the broncos now, hugh, we're going to really fight now. >> we have you surrounded. warren in youngstown, where he did the best in the primary, did well all along the pennsylvania-ohio border, which is the j.d. vance people, and

they are folks who believe economic insecurity is part and parcel to their life forever and blame people for it. they blame globalization, so this is actually an antiglobalization ad. i think it's effective in ohio and pennsylvania, i think it's very effective to a lesser extent in wisconsin. i don't know how it works in florida. i do note that a lot of the ad buy in florida was in the panhandle, including mobile, alabama, to get that end of the panhandle, but i don't get the miami ad at all. kellyanne conway is smart about this stuff, so i differ to her on this. i think this ad works in ohio and pennsylvania. >> let's go to the person we differ to on this, fernand. what in that ad would appeal to a florida audience anyway, but getting beyond just florida, to donald trump saying at least he wants to go after a nonwhite audience, i noticed there were people of color sprinkled into the ad. is that a message that works at all with voters of color? >> no.

no. let me put it to you as simply as i can, immigration was the issue that propelled donald trump to do the unthinkable, which was to have won this republican nomination. he's going to double down on that issue. i think it's the one success he's had. i just don't think it's a strategy of addition. remember, campaigns are about addition, not subtraction. what he's doing now is siloing in on that one group, that one base, and that's why i go back to trump tv. it's a recognition this election is over. you heard the word rigged, by the way, in that ad. everything's rigged, whole thing is rigged, that's the only way to explain what's going to be looking like a landslide loss if you believe the polls and that's where i thinhiisgoing, joy. >> i feel if that ad was designed to create an audience for conservative talk radio or fox news alternative, couldn't be more perfect. i'm with fernand on that. joan, jamil. thank you very much, fernand and hugh, both of you guys. come back, just don't talk about

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can help prepare you for growth at open.com. he's not going to go into ukraine. you can mark it down, put it down. >> he's already there, isn't he? >> said it clearly, no russian troops in ukraine. >> the same week that paul manafort was deposed as trump's campaign chair, in part because of reports detailing manafort's business relationships with pro-russian officials in ukraine, but trump still has a russia problem. on the campaign trail he doesn't hide his desire for closer ties between u.s. and the country led by vladimir putin. >> if we could get russia to help us get rid of isis, if we could actually be friendly with

russia, wouldn't that be a good thing? is that so bad? they say putin likes trump. i don't know putin, by the way, but they say putin likes trump. and he's said nice things about me, called me a genius, he said we're going to win. that's good. that's not bad, that's good. >> he called me a genius. these remarks came just days after trump appeared to encourage russia to hack u.s. computers to find hillary clinton's missing state department e-mails. russia is, of course, suspected of hacking the dnc. and that hack has led many to speculate that putin may be actively trying to get trump elected. former u.s. ambassador to russia michael mcfaul argued trump is playing into putin's hands by suggesting the u.s. recognize crimea and demanding -- or recognize the russian's claim on crimea and demanding nato members pay up for u.s. protection, not to mention trump's isolationist and

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i was outside a day before. it was a small child that had seen his mother die in front of his eyes and the last act was to bring him to the united states. i don't think this is our role to see how this is how you viewers should think, but i think it is our responsibility to let people know what is going on. many times so close to our border. that is something that we do very well on msnbc.

you know, she hates putin and putin hates her, right? that's what i hear. no, no. putin probably doesn't respect her more than anything else, but putin hates her. >> welcome back to "am joy." joining me now, malcolm nance and former white house middle east expert hillary mann leverett. let's talk about this continuing inside team trump. paul manafort may be gone, but one of his top aides, malcolm, in his firm that worked with the pro-russian-ukrainian government is still working with the campaign, still has general flynn with him today, periodically. in your view, is there still a sort of pro putin contingent inside of team trump?

>> well, i think the entire, you know, component, every component of donald trump's praise of russia have affected not only the people inside his organization, but his own thoughts and views on russia itself. i think this story and i think i've been hammering this for about five weeks now, this story has yet to even open up. the fact that manafort resigned and now we find out there's a federal investigation, wait until this moves on to a counterintelligence investigation to where they may suspect that someone was an agent of influence or actually a directly handled agent of russia, and we've already seen there's been reporting that one of paul manafort's associates was a russian translator who may have, in fact, been an fsb/kgb agent. >> that's scary. did it surprise you given the attention that's on the russia connections to team trump? did it surprise you that his daughter ivanka took this moment in time to vacation with wendy

deng, who used to be married to rupert murdoch, but who's now dating vladimir putin? >> that's surprising, but nothing surprises me. the thing that surprises me is considering all the press going down in the last month, where pretty much the outlines of what we suspect has been a strategic russian political and cyber warfare operation against the united states in order to choose a president of the united states of their favor, that the optics of anyone having anything to do with moscow would have been squashed immediately, but they seem a little bit proud of it to a certain extent. that statement you played just a little bit earlier, and the fact only manafort's money connections were enough to get him taken off the campaign, principally because they found documents. they seem to care only about evidence and unfortunately that evidence may be building soon. >> hillary, michael mcfaul, former u.s. ambassador, wrote an op-ed this week in "the washington post" entitled "why

putin wants a trump victory so much he might even be trying to help him." why in your view would vladimir putin want donald trump to be the united states president? >> well, it seems, you know, from his own words and my analysis of, you know, his world view and interactions is he really didn't get along very well with secretary of state hillary clinton. he thought the first term obama administration was an overly aggressive one. their interventions in libya, attempted interventions in syria. their push for nato expansion, i think, in russia's view, provocative steps towards russia directly were all issues that were of real importance in russia and i think to putin personally, so he's made no secret about his concerns about a clinton victory. whether he really is so much for trump reminds me, i think, in a disturbing way a bit about our own history, our mccarthy-ite history of trying to ferret out secret agents and influence with anybody who has a different

view, and even though i'm not for trump, my view is we do need to be cooperating with russia wherever and whenever necessary in our own interest, whether it's vis-a-vis isis, syria, or a rising china. we need to do that and i think there are other realists and progressives that share that view. with manafort gone, trump has the potential to be able to make that argument. i don't have a lot of confidence that he will make it clearly or coherently, but it's an important argument and it's an important argument that others have made in the past, president obama vis-a-vis iran, president nixon vis-a-vis china. it's an important one we shouldn't brush under the table as a product of a crazy conspiracy theory. >> hillary, with russia, their cooperation comes with certain prices. one of them is they want to be able to seize parts of ukraine, lock them off, make them a part of russia, and have us recognize that. they are being incredibly aggressive towards nato, they'd like to weaken alliances with

nato. russia is not some friend the united states can make and partner within the world. they are an adversarial aggressive power that wants us to recognize their seizure of countries that are not theirs. >> and again, you know, people said the same thing about china and the same thing about iran. in my view states don't have friends, they have interests, and they work with countries when our interests dictate that. that's why we were able to work with stalin to win world war ii. the idea we should only be with our friends and stick with alliances with friendships when they don't make sense in our interests is an important one to challenge. trump in his really bizarre kind of way has challenged it in an important way. it's an important argument, and i think it's one of the reasons why you d't see a lot of realists joining the hillary clinton campaign. they kind of put it under the umbrella, well, maybe henry kissinger is going to endorse her and bring realists and progressives to her campaign. no, i think the residual opposition to hillary clinton

that you saw have a home with sanders is precisely the kind of aggressive foreign policy that she has put forward and that in his kind of very bizarre kind of way trump is bucking. now, i'm not saying he's doing it in a good way or he's right, but his message does resinate to people who are not pleased with the conventional wisdom and aggressive policies that hillary clinton has put forward. >> i'm going to let you in here, malcolm. the only people not with hillary clinton at this point, she got 91% of bernie sanders supporters, are people in jill stein's camp. jill stein was sitting at putin's table with general flynn. >> jill stein has a show in russia today. this is not a conspiracy theory. i'm not saying that because i'm an intelligence professional. these objectives that russia has and appears to be pushing and has an ally with donald trump's rhetoric are strategic objectives that have existed before the fall of the soviet union. the breaking up of relationships

within nato, the disillusion of the european union, as hillary said, nations act in interest, but the interest that vladimir putin has right now to become the predominant strategic and at least in eastern europe and central asia economic power, hopefully in cooperation with china and to minimize the influence of the west or hurt them economically are all being played out before our eyes. right now, here's strategic intelligence for you, russia is doing a military massing of forces right now in crimea. they are moving forces and what appears to have been -- what appears to be, all right, what may be the october surprise, a military operation which takes all of southern ukraine. why else would they be moving anti-ship missiles, armor brigades all over southern russia, it would be to go into what he calls novo russia. that's the sort of thing a former spy master, head of kgb vladimir putin would do as a

power play in the middle of the chaos of the u.s. election where we are on the cusp about doing anything. these things, you know, they look tom clancy and political outsiders may see are games that appear conspiratorial, within, you know, the global geo politics, all of these things are real and all have an economic interest and russia appears to want to benefit from what's going on today. and if they can choose the person that will help that, they will do it. >> interesting -- we're out of time. very quickly. >> i agree with malcolm, but the thing is, i think that president obama recognized that and has handled it in a much more, not just mature way, but in america's interests and in some ways trump is trying to say in his very absurd way he'd be like president obama. >> i highly doubt that's what he's saying, hillary, i don't think that's what he's saying at all and he'd be explicit he's saying he wants a friendship with vladimir putin because putin thinks he's smart.

i don't know i agree with you on this one. >> president obama, rightfully, knocked mitt romney in 2012. mitt romney tried to make russia this part of the presidential campaign. i'm not likening the two together. >> yeah, we're out of time. we should have this discussion again. i think i'm more on malcolm's side on this one. thank you both for being here. coming up in our next hour, the trump -- the trump general, anyone who may have been offended, very general, anyone who may have been offended apology tour. jim gilmore will join us to talk about that. and trump's message to black voters. we'll tell you who he's really targeting with that. so much more "am joy." stay with us you can go ahead and stick with that complicated credit card that limits where you earn bonus cash back. or... you can get the quicksilver card from capital one. quicksilver earns you unlimited 1.5% cash back

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at the on the of four years, i guarantee you that i will get over 95% of the african-american vote. i promise you. because i will produce, i will produce for the inner cities, and i will produce for the african-americans. >> for two nights in a row donald trump has made a direct peel to african-american voters, in michigan last night and in north carolina. though he did so in two towns with almost no black people. trump's party in north carolina seems intent on blocking african-american access to the ballot. last month the federal appeals court struck down part of the state's 2013 voting law, ruling that it discriminated against voters of color and targeted

african-americans in particular with almost surgical precision. but that suspect deterring local gop leaders. a memo by dallas woodhouse, the executive director of the north carolina republican party of county election boards to make party line changes to early voting by limiting hours and keeping polling places closed on sundays, which as you know is a popular day to vote among black early voters. joining me from raleigh, william barber, reverend barber, always a pleasure to talk with you. and tell me about this letter. so dallas woodhouse, people may have heard of his brother brad, who is a democratic strategist, who rebuked him thoroughly on twitter and called what he asked the county board to do racist and completely disgusting and said he should be ashamed of himself, tell me the origin of that dallas woodhouse e-mail. >> you know, it's hard to talk about this stuff, joy. you think about we are in the

21st century, his own brother called him a racist. that's like cain versus abel. you had the courts unanimously twice in two weeks catch our legislators red handed. intentionally racist in the voter suppression bill and in the redistricting, so what does he do, instead of saying okay, he doubles down, he files a case with the supreme court asking the supreme court basically to join him into the promotion of racism, and now we understand, joy, they are paying about $1,000 an hour for the lawyer they've hired out of d.c., according to one of my attorneys, and we know they've spent over $5 million of north carolina taxpayer dollars to try to take away the vote, and then this memo comes out, a secret memo, where dallas woodhouse actually says to local boards of election, who have two republicans on them, do not do what the courts say, we want you

to make the laws about voting and the decision about voting based on what the republicans say. >> and basically -- saying do it in the interest of the parties. he doesn't explicitly say it's racial, but it's self preservation. if you look at the polling, reverend barber, you see hillary clinton is actually doing quite well in north carolina, which may be alarming the republican party, but governor mccory is losing in his election bid if you look at the polling. this is direct self preservation of the republicans. what is it you think might be the voter backlash against the statewide republican leaders that would make them so afraid of black voters? >> well, right, and we think it is racism because the courts said any time you use politics, that's what they said, you cannot make a political decision to impact the african-americans and say it's just political, but they are afraid. they know that this republican legislature and government have been totally regressive.

they are wrong on living wages, even though about 79% of people in north carolina are wanting living wages. they are wrong on stopping affordable care act for 500,000 people. they've been wrong on public education, wrong on immigrant rights, wrong on the lgbt community. they have just been so regressive and hurt so many people that in north carolina, respect republicans, democrats and alike are sick of this leadership and they know that if the african-american community votes at the levels they voted in 2008, '12, 70% and you join that with progressive whites and other people, latinos, they know they cannot win in the public square with a vote. so what they've claimed as fraud, which is no fraud, and they are doing everything they can to stifle the vote. >> have you ever seen this blatant an attack on african-american voters, at least in the modern era in your state? >> no, and the historians and the courts have said that this

is some of the worst attacks on voting rights since jim crow. it all began after shelby. now remember, these are the same people that the governor and the legislator said the day shelby was passed, now that the headache has been removed. so they signalled exactly what they would do, and what's interesting, joy, you have trump coming into this state and, you know, he visited north carolina a lot before he ran for president. he brought his birtherism to north carolina, he comes to north carolina and says for black people to trust him and doesn't say a thing against voting rights, you know, he suggests that his party is the party that's going to help and that black people are naive. you know, that's inherently racist. in other words, your party has been against voting rights since the '60s, against the civil rights act, fought us on public education, fought us on immigrant rights, fought us on social safety nets, fought us on living wages.

you took us into the worst recession we've seen since the great depression, you've engaged in trickle down economics that didn't help the working poor. under your watch we have 9/11, but somehow black people are naive because we don't trust your leadership. >> and now to add to that, they are making a direct attempt to stop people from getting to the polls. it's pretty remarkable. we're glad you're there, thank you so much, and we'll definitely have you back on as this continues to progress. thank you, sir. >> thank you so much, joy. >> thank you. and after the break, donald trump's regrets and some suggestions on where he might want to start his apology tour. you don't want to miss that. (wol

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and i do regret it. particularly where it may have caused personal pain. >> in a surprise change of strategy for the brash candidate with no filter, donald trump on thursday expressed regret for offensive comments made in the heat of political combat, but in characteristic sorry, but not sorry, fashion, trump did not specify what remarks he regretted, nor did he directly apologize for anyone in particular. the possibilities certainly seem endless. >> when mexico sends its people, they are not sending their best. they are not sending you. they are not sending you. they are bringing drugs. they are bringing crime. they are rapists. >> do you believe in punishment for abortion, yes or no, as a principle? >> the answer is that there has to be some form of punishment. >> for the woman? >> yeah, has to be some form. >> you could see there was blood coming out of her eyes. blood coming out of her

wherever. >> he's a war hero because he was captured. i like people that weren't captured, okay, i hate to tell you. >> donald j. trump is calling for a total and complete shutdown of muslims entering the united states until our country's representatives can figure out what the hell is going on. >> there's a man named kaiser khan speaking at the democratic convention, his son was caught serving in iraq and had some very tough questions for you. he said you wouldn't have even let his son in america. >> he doesn't know that. if you look at his wife, she was standing there, had nothing to say, maybe she wasn't allowed to have anything to say, you tell me. >> i have a judge who is a hater of donald trump, a hater, he's a hater. his name is gonzalo quriel. and he is not doing the right thing. the judge, who happens to be, we

believe, mexican, which is great, i think that's fine. >> isis is honoring president obama. he is the founder of isis. he's the founder of isis. okay? he's the founder! he founded isis! hillary, who's become very shrill, you know the word shrill? she's become shrill. >> written by a nice reporter, now the poor guy, you ought to see this guy, oh, i don't know what i said, i don't remember! he's going, i don't remember! maybe that's what i said. this is 14 years ago, they didn't do a retraction. it's rubio! >> and joining me now, joan

walsh of "the nation," jamil smith, 2016 presidential candidate jim gilmore. mr. gilmore, i'm going to talk to you, you were not in that soliloquy, he did not include you in his list of horribles, but if you were advising the trump campaign now, where would you advise him to start if you want to get specific about these apologies? i'm going to go right to birtherism, which is not only the first time donald trump has made a national splash on a political sense, but hurt him most with african-americans, do you think he should apologize for demanding it to see barack obama's birth certificate? >> you know, joy, i think the main thing for him to do is begin to change the dialogue of the campaign. look, i'm not a political adviser, i was a candidate myself, i wanted to be the nominee, but you've given a long litany here of things that donald trump has said and that, you know, has been promoted and i think the clinton campaign will continue to promote that

kind of thing. what donald trump needs to do is reassure the american people that he's a reasonable man, that he doesn't intend to hurt people, and to start the campaign over again. >> but can you -- >> not allow diversion away from hillary clinton. >> you've been in politics a long time, sir. >> long time. >> you know that one of the strategies, the apology can be a strategic thing, right, but when you issue a blanket and broad apology, it invites a very obvious and logical question. well, what are you sorry for? we just played that litany because he invited it by saying he regrets. don't you think he should be specific? and some maybe would help him. the khan family, for instance, going after that gold star family. maybe naming them, john mccain, who was a war hero in vietnam, whose heroism was questioned, heidi cruz, his former rival, he basically called out his wife's looks. shouldn't he apologize specifically to some of those people? >> you've given a long list. if he did all that, he wouldn't

talk about anything else, and what we really need to do is talking about hillary clinton, his opponent. >> that's not the point, though. the point is he invited the apology. that's not abouthilly, that's about donald trump. he said he said things that were wrong. don't you think he's invited the logical question, what are you sorry for? >> i think what he's done, joy, he's said things he shouldn't have said so far in the campaign, and it's allowed the campaign to be diverted away from the real issue here. and the real issue is the unqualified -- the disqualification of hillary clinton to be president of the united states. >> that isn't the real issue in this segment. we're talking about donald trump. let's go to hunter walker. hunter, you've been covering politics, do you think it was a strategic mistake for donald trump to get up and give a blanket apology that invites that litany i've just played and begun to read? >> i think i would have to agree with governor gilmore. if he'd gotten into the specifics here it would be a very negative conversation and i

don't know when it would end, as you pointed out, there's a really long list there. pugh came out with really great numbers. two candidates with very, very high unfavorables. at this moment, donald trump, his just happened to be higher, but really both candidates had 50% of america that will not vote for them and about 50% that might. he needs to reach that ceiling of people that might consider him, and i think that happens a positive conversation, not necessarily rehashing old mistakes. >> bingo. >> that tends to be sort of the narrative you hear. the data actually shows that is actually not true. they are not on the one hand and on the other hand. hillary clinton's convention actually improved her numbers significantly. so is that still the narrative, it's really just about hillary clinton? >> i think, you know, i really respect hunter a lot, but i think that a lot of us are kind of spouting that line because we need this to be a race, and i really don't think that their

negatives are the same. i don't think she has 50% of people that will not support her. some polls she's got more than 50% support. yes, there are questions that have been raised about her and yes, some of them are absolutely fair, but the real issue here is donald trump's suitability to be president and this, you know, i think i never disagree with you, but i think you've been calling it an apology gives him too much credit. it's a blanket statement of regret and apology says i'm sorry to you, joy, because i said something that was wrong and that hurt you. donald trump has definitely grievously offended me personally, going back to birtherism. is he talking to me? i kind of doubt it. >> i wonder about the strategy of it. my friend fernand made this point the other night, saying i have regrets was actually kind of a mistake because it has triggered everyone who's been paying attention to donald trump to go through and recall all the things he said and he can't really escape them, can he? >> i don't know if it's about escaping them. i think it's about enabling surrogates to go on tv and say,

hey, he made an apology about everything and if he got specific, you have to go to certain things, each thing, what have you, but by issuing what's called a blanket apology, quote, unquote, i think what he's trying to do is make sure he wipes the slate clean and gets past that conversation. you've already seen it. surrogates have come on the air and said, hey, he apologized for everything, why can't we move past it? >> and it's a strategy. listen, they have to do what they have to do. they are trying to run what one would think is an election. the new york times is reporting companies owned by donald trump owe at least $650 million in debt, twice as much as declared on various company filings. for example, according to "the times," one office building trump partially owns here in new york has a billion dollar loan with lenders including goldman sachs and the bank of china. governor gilmore, i want to go to you on this. donald trump sort of vilifies china as one of the villains he

would take on as president of the united states. do you think it's problematic for him to be in significant debt to the bank of china? >> i don't think that business person is ever going to have a really nice and tidy situation behind him. i certainly don't think he needs to be in debt to anybody, you know, but the real news this morning, joy, and i'm sorry to have to tell you this, the real news this morning is that the clintons said they are not going to accept overseas contributions in the clinton foundation, which she did, was doing while she was secretary of state. >> there's nothing illegal about a charitable foundation accepting international contributions. the clinton foundation is not her campaign. >> i don't agree with that at all. >> there's nothing illegal about that, sir. >> this is not a campaign matter -- >> you're trying to conflate the clinton foundation, which is a charitable organization, which is what we're talking about, somebody who wants to be president of the united states and personally in his business dealings in debt to china.

trying to make them the same is a good, smart political tactic on television, but isn't the same thing. >> i insist when you're an official, secretary of state of the united states, and running a charitable foundation. >> she was not running the clinton foundation. i think we need to make that clear, because we want to be accurate. joan, you had something to say. >> it was her husband's foundation. governor, with all due respect, it is absolutely accurate, it was her husband's foundation. she had a deal with the obama administration. >> no, joy -- >> this is joan, sorry, sir. >> legalities don't matter. >> sir, the legalities do matter. we've taken the segment off track, which i think was a good strategy on the part of your part, governor gilmore, that's what the surrogate's job is, take the conversation towards hillary clinton. >> wait a minute, i get to have my own judgment here. >> sir, sir, your judgment and the facts are two different things. you cannot say the legalities do not matter, but you essentially try to accuse the secretary of

state from doing something illegal. i don't think that's fair. i want to make sure we're accurate. i want to go to hunter on this, do you think that it is an area with value to look at donald trump's debts as a business person, not that he can't be in business, but if he becomes president and he has this significant debt to a foreign country, to the bank of china, do you think that has value? >> donald trump's foreign business ties are something we don't know a lot about because he hasn't released tax returns and it's a very, very interesting area of inquiry, particularly as we see paul manafort leaving his campaign and actually i'm aware of one business deal involving the drake hotel where paul manafort was working with this guy, brad zackson and said donald trump might come in on the deal. i think there's a lot of questions about what governments donald trump owes money to, we

don't know without the returns. >> jamil, this is an area donald trump has tried to sort of keep away from, but if he's running as somebody who was a successful business person, i would think this would be a logical area of inquiry. >> groups where he's unpopular, especially young people, really smell the b.s. when it comes to trump's business dealings and also personal comments. what i think this story could be damaging for him is, you know, frankly it underscores the notion you cannot trust this guy with the economy. and the economy is, you know, the foremost concern for a lot of voters and i think, frankly, you have to pay attention to this stuff because it tells you how this guy runs a business, tells you how he could possibly run our economy, and i think it's really problematic. >> governor gilmore -- >> i have something to say about theconomy. >> let me ask you this question, do you think donald trump should clear up some of this? you stayed in the presidential campaign, you would have released your tax returns and had no problem doing that. going back to richard nixon,

candidates released them, do you think that donald trump should release his tax returns and clear up these questions? >> i have always been an advocate for transparency in government, and i'm not here just as a surrogate, i'm my own man as a presidential candidate, but i want to answer what was just said. >> sure. >> when you look at the two economic programs here, hillary clinton doubled down on the failed economic policies of the last eight years. the country is not growing, wages are flat, people are not getting opportunities, and she's going to double down and do the same thing. at least with donald trump the businessman, you have a guy that's put an economic program out that offers some opportunity for people in the african-american community and the working community all across the country. so this is the choices that i think are before the american people. >> i think, you know, to that point, sir, i think it's important to point out we've had 77 consecutive months of job growth, i believe that's the famous chart that shows the economy under president bush and the months of job growth under

president obama. i think the dow is over 17,000. the economy is doing quite well. >> that is not true. that is not true, joy. >> let's get the unemployment rate. >> that is not true. the economy is not doing well. the american people know it. >> let's put the chart back up again, that is 77 months straight of job growth. >> but it's not enough. reher je there it is, that's the unemployment rate, 4.9%. last month's job growth was 255,000. >> that's not enough to offer real opportunities to people. >> it's never enough, of course, but if you say the economy is in terrible condition, i'm just showing you the data that shows the economic conditions actually are. that's just the math. it's not my opinion. >> can i say, trump is going back to the bush strategy of massive tax cuts for the rich, which did nothing, which cost us jobs in the first decade of this

century. so there's nothing -- >> that's bull. >> it's true. >> are you saying the economy was better under george w. bush? >> no, what i'm saying is, we have to have an actual plan for growth in this country. >> tax cuts for the very rich is donald trump's plan. >> the failing that they've had is they haven't put a plan in place that will actually grow the economy. >> economy is growing. >> republicans will be able to do. >> if i may, governor, if i can ask you what specific plans does donald trump have for the african-american community? all i've seen him do are say, well, you know, what do you have to lose by voting for, you know, voting for donald trump? i want to know what i have to gain as an african-american voter by voting for donald trump. can you tell me exactly what plans he has specific to the african-american community that you're touting right now? >> here's what, the answer is that if you grow the economy where you should be, almost 4%, there will be jobs for everyone. more opportunities for everyone.

right now if -- >> that doesn't answer my question, governor. >> i am answering your question. >> i'm asking specifically about the african-american community, which you brought up, sir. >> and i'm answering it. if you have a growing, burgeoning, dynamic economy, there will be more opportunities for everyone, and especially people in the african-american community. >> black poverty is not the same as white poverty. >> that's what has to be done. >> we're out of time. we're out of time. that's the data on the economy. people can look at those numbers and decide whether the economy is growing or shrinking, i think the numbers show it growing. governor, thank you very much. >> thank you very much. >> thank you. after the break, speaking of people trump may want to add to his apology list, a woman who said she survived trump magazine, barely. she'll be here next. if you've gone to extremes to escape your nasal allergies.

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trump magazine is out. i said, it is, i thought i read one two days ago? this comes out, it's called "the jewel of palm beach." it goes to all of my clubs. i've had it for many years, it's the magazine, it's great. anyone want one? take one. my club champion. >> actually, despite trump's claims to the contrary, trump's magazine actually did fail back in 2009. in fact, at the time trump actually bragged that he hadn't put any money into it, he simply licensed his name, so no harm done to him. but it was a different story for the magazine's employees, and we heard from one former receptionist this week who wrote in politico about her paychecks bouncing, eviction notices coming and her health insurance evaporating, even while she was battling cancer. joining me now, freelance writer and former receptionist at trump

magazine. how is your health? >> i'm doing very well. >> for those who haven't read this story in politico, you went to work for trump magazine as a receptionist, then what happened? >> well, it was my first job out of college. i had just moved to new york, and i was hired at the company just after halloween of 2006. and a few months later it became very clear there were problems and that become very clear to me when my paycheck bounced, my rent check bounced, my landlord called me, what's going on. >> most people have had experiences with work, but a paycheck bouncing, that's scary. how long into your tenure did your paycheck bounce? >> less than six months in. >> wow. what was the explanation that was given to you by your boss? >> that's assuming there was an explanation, and there weren't many. there was a big lack of communication and acceptance that things were going badly and we should all get out as soon as we could. >> you described in your politico piece sort of an

atmosphere of chaos inside the office that was in big contrast of the sort of luxury that was displayed and portrayed on the magazine, and a lot of cheesecake, by the way, lady cheesecake on the magazine. talk about that a little bit. >> the office was a very small staff and there wasn't a lot of organization amongst the staff and we often didn't know where our publisher was. i had to sign the notices stating that i received the eviction notices. >> the magazine was being evicted. >> we were being evicted from the office, yes. >> for nonpayment of rent for how long, do you think? >> that i didn't know. one morning i do remember we didn't have electricity or internet, and i was trying to track down my publisher to ask what i should do. he gave me a credit card number to pay the balance, but the credit card was declined, so i had to call back and say what do we do now? >> at one point was cash being used instead of the normal methods of payment? >> for me, yes, once i was handed a brown paper bag with a few hundred dollar bills in it

to make up for my paycheck because they told me my paycheck would bounce so i should deposit this. >> did you meet or see donald trump and what did you think his relationship was to the magazine at the time? >> i never met him. saw his hair from a distance at a party we hosted at fao schwartz in december of that year and as far as i knew licensed his name and that was it. i did hear he called the office once when i was there at a doctor's appointment but had someone else call and say i have mr. trump on the line, that's all we knew. >> when the magazine really collapsed, was donald trump anywhere to be seen and did he continue to tout or talk about the magazine? >> i didn't know about that. by the time the magazine was declared insolvent, i wasn't working there anymore and trying to just move on with my life and not really think about it. >> and what did you think the purpose of the magazine was? was it an ad sales ploy, did it have content, what was trump

magazine? >> it was a luxury lifestyle men's magazine that touted products like your own personal canoe or 18 karat gold cuff links, various luxury items and a lot of advertisements for trump products. >> so it was selling luxury, but they couldn't pay their rent? >> yes, as i stated in the article, i felt i was living in an onion article. >> the other aspect was sort of the way women were portrayed in the magazine. did that make you uncomfortable? what were your thoughts about it? >> it did make me uncomfortable. i'm a proud and unspoken feminist that can be seen in any of the writing i do and i didn't like the way women were portrayed in the magazine. the trump gift guide that was in the holiday issue had a woman in a baby doll nighty holding a trump teddy bear with her mouth open looking at the camera very seductively and at the time i was 22 years old and working my

first job and told myself eventually you'll move on to something more in line with your values. >> and you eventually did. you're a successful freelance writer and glad you bounced back from the harrowing situation. >> no pun intended. >> indeed. paper bag full of cash, wow. thank you very much, appreciate it. up next, donald trump says he's going after the support of african-american voters. wonder how that's going. stay with us. at i was on the icelandic game show. and everyone knows me for discounts, like safe driver and paperless billing. but nobody knows the box behind the discounts. oh, it's like my father always told me -- "put that down. that's expensive." of course i save people an average of nearly $600, but who's gonna save me? [ voice breaking ] and that's when i realized... i'm allergic to wasabi. well, i feel better. it's been five minutes. talk about progress. [ chuckles ] okay.

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making simple, smart cash back choices... with quicksilver from capital one. you're earning unlimited 1.5% cash back on every purchase, everywhere. like on that new laptop. quicksilver keeps things simple, gary. and smart, like you! and i like that. i guess i am pretty smart. don't let that go to your head, gary. what's in your wallet? over the course of his campaign, donald trump's off the cuff remarks have targeted a rather diverse cross section of people in the united states, immigrants, muslim americans, women, disabled americans, and gold star military families, all have been subject to the trump treatment, but this week his stick to the script teleprompter speeches have name checked a group of americans that have gotten less attention from trump on the stump. >> african-americans. >> african-americans.

>> african-american. >> african-american. >> african-american. >> african-american. african-american. african-american. >> trump's week of shout outs mark an exponential increase of public appeals to african-americans, and since he singled out since a lone supporter at a rally as my african-american. for black america, black republicans, the quality of those repeals is no substitute for quality and frustrated with the campaign's failure to meaningfully engage african-american voters, they don't necessarily think the shout out adds up to much. it's a criticism that's plagued the campaign since last year when trump claimed he won the endorsement from 100 black ministers from across the country. as it turned out, it was more of an illusion because several of the ministers not only did not endorse trump, but told npr if they met with him at all, it would be to air grievances with his campaign and his rhetoric. this week buzz feed reports as trump appeared to embrace black

voters, his campaign was alienating those giving him sport. according to buzz feed, he was told by trump's florida strategist that trump didn't need his classification of people to get elected during the primary. and to add insult to injury, buzz feed reports jackson was recently snubbed at a trump event and kicked out by the secret service. ouch. up next, more with my panel on why black republicans are not feeling the love from donald trump. here?

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>> welcome back to "am joy." donald trump asked that question yesterday in dimondale, a michigan suburb where the african-american population is just 1%. which leads me to another question, a variation on the classic philosophical quandary about the tree falling in the forest. if donald trump makes a speech to black people where there are none around to hear it, did he make a sound? joining me now, author of "the loneliness of the black republican: pragmatic politics and the pursuit of power," and pastor darryl scott, ceo of trump's cultural diversion. i'll start with you, he's made these appeals to african-americans now in two successive speeches, but in the two communities where he was speaking there was 1% approximately black population. why is he making those appeals in front of exclusively white audiences or almost exclusively white audiences? >> well, donald trump's meetings are never for any exclusive demographic.

when donald trump speaks, it's national, and so the choice of venue, you know, the venue had been decided months back, and for donald trump to choose a venue is not like hillary who can show up at a high school gym and if something shows up she can go to another gym. there's a lot that goes into it because they have to accommodate thousands, but whenever he speaks, it gets national coverage, so the fact he spoke in that small of venue with that particular demographic did not affect the fact just about every african-american person in america heard about it and knows about it and we're still talking about it today. so the choice of venue is inconsequential almost. >> you don't think he could have in advance chosen to accept the invitations of the naacp, urban league, or national publication of black journalists? >> well, i know for a fact that the naacp meeting was right around the rnc, he was gearing up for the rnc. and so that's the reason why, there was a scheduling conflict

there. the national association of black journalists and even with the urban league, by the time they came across mr. trump's desk, he had already had other events on his calendar. once again, you have to understand donald trump is like a cultural phenomenon right now, he's attracting crowds that rock stars attract, so it's not so easy for him to change venues -- >> he's attracting crowds that don't allow african-americans in them. i want to get leah in on this, because when donald trump was in michigan speaking to the whole world, as darryl scott had to say, the way he spoke about african-americans was interesting. let's play donald trump in michigan talking about african-americans as refugees. >> hillary clinton would rather provide a job to a refugee from overseas than to give that job to unemployed african-american youth in cities like detroit,

who have become refugees in their own country. >> i mean, in your view, is speaking about african-americans as refugees, people from detroit, black people from detroit, as refugees, is that a message that seems like it would be effective with black people? >> so, it's absolutely not a message that would be effective with black people. we're already talking about a candidate that's managed to alienate a good portion of black voters in this country and now we have a doubling down of that. and so what it does is it pushes black voters away, even further away. part of the problem here is that you have a message, right, that is coming from an insincere messenger and you don't have any policies or programs or politics to actually back it up. sths the kind of thing that we've seen over the past, you know, 52 years that republican presidential candidates have tried that essentially have not worked and have actually hurt the party in the long run. >> and one other -- i'm going to play one other clip in donald trump in michigan, pastor scott, and he's talking about black problems.

he's using things like your, but again he's speaking to an audience that was not african-americans at all. it was essentially a white audience. this is what he said about black people and their problems in michigan. >> you're living in poverty, your schools are no good, you have no jobs. 58% of your youth is unemployed. what the hell do you have to lose? >> i mean, pastor scott, you know as a black man, that is not the reality. every african-american is not living in poverty with terrible schools. there are plenty of african-americans, yourself included, who do quite well. why would he speak about african-americans in the community as if everyone is poor, everyone is down and out? >> well, he's speaking to the ones that are in that respect. you know, i've had a number of private conversations with mr. trump. when i speak for him, i don't speak as a surrogate, i speak as a friend and i've had many conversations going back with years with him talking about the

african-americans, suppressed segment of african-americans in america. in fact, you know, there is a segment of us that refer to ourselves as being oppressed. i mean, i've had my critics say to me, hey, man, you're siding with our oppressor, so there is a large segment of african-americans who look upon ourselves as an oppressed society. >> let me ask you a question about that. you say that you're a friend, you say people you talk with look themselves as oppressed. one of the issues african-americans have faced over the years is housing discrimination. why do you think donald trump engaged in massive housing discrimination as a landlord in new york who would not talk to black people? >> that was an accusation. >> he settled the case with the government. he settled the case with the government. >> i know banks that i did business with, banks in ohio, banks nationwide that were accused of red lining that denied it, but they settled. >> you're saying donald trump did not commit -- what about

accusing -- >> settle doesn't mean you're saying you're guilty. >> uh-huh. >> that's an accusation he's denied from then until now. >> quite a strong case and he thought it was a strong enough case he had to settle it. >> government has strong cases. >> you're denying he did that. we're running out of time, leah, do you think -- well, he did settle the case. do you think donald trump, as somebody that's got that history, the birtherism, the housing discrimination cases -- >> the birtherism case -- >> don't tell me you agree with the birtherism, sir, don't tell me you agree with that. >> the birther issue came out of hillary clinton's campaign in the 2008 elections. >> no, it didn't. >> yes, it did. >> that's wrong. even a pastor cannot just make things up on this show. >> that's not factually wrong. the birther issue was first raised by hillary clinton. >> no, no, no, it was not. even a pastor cannot make things up. this is part of the problem. >> this is part of the problem. >> you've taken us off track.

i wish we had more time. no, sir, i respect you as a pastor. you're not going to come on and make things up. leah and pastor darrell scott, segment's over, sir. after the break, the rio olympics may be nearing an end, but there are still big events to look forward to. when we come back, a preview of the games. stay with us. when heartburn comes creeping up on you. fight back with relief so smooth and fast.

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♪ (vo) making the most out of every mile. that's why i got a subaru impreza. (avo) love. it's what makes a subaru, a subaru. get zero percent on select subaru models during the subaru a lot to love event, now through august thirty-first. we are entering the closing weekend of the 2016 olympic games in rio, and breaking news this morning, quadruple gold medalist gymnast simone biles has been chosen to lead team usa as a flag bearer for the closing ceremonies on sunday. joining me now to tell us what we have to look forward on that, rob, that's exciting, what else can we look forward to today, though? >> certainly well deserved for simone biles. we have a big day, coming down the home stretch here on nbc and

all of our networks, second to last day of the games. this afternoon on nbc, only spain stands between the u.s. women's basketball team and a sixth straight gold medal. meanwhile on nbcsn in men's soccer, the host nation brazil seeks a gold medal against germany, trying to get revenge for the blowout loss in 2014 in the world cup. tonight on primetime, following up last night's win in the 4x100 meter relay, the u.s. women led by allyson felix look to win their sixth straight 4x400 relay, felix's sixth career olympic medal. and mo farrah, who took gold in rio is going for a double-double in the 5,000 meter race. in men's platform diving, american david boudia, so we're all over the place, olympic action everywhere. good news for you at msnbc, after today, we're giving you guys your network back. you can go back to your news. that's going to be it for us here on the olympics side.

we'll mess you. >> we love it, we're enjoying the olympics. really quickly, what's going on with the men's 4x100 olympic team that got disqualified last night, that seemed totally unfair? >> so disappointing, they've had so much trouble in that event over the years and they were disqualified for passing the baton too early. this is now the fourth time over the last six olympics that either a men's or women's team has been disqualified for failure to pass the baton. it's something the u.s. track and field folks have got to figure out how to get better at, because it happens time and time again. they are out, no medal, they had gotten the silver before that disqualification. >> i'm a baton trouper, they did not, i looked the the tape, i don't care what you say. >> maybe donald trump will tweet something about it. >> to the end, ride or die. rob, we will not miss your coverage, don't miss the olympic coverage here on msnbc in just under 15 minutes. and up next, i'll ask my panelists the age old question,

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all right, before we get to who won the week this week, leah was shorted on the segment, so we're bringing her back. what point did you want to meet? >> my whole point is you can't be serious about black outreach and say the phrase or accept the idea that black lives matter. i mean, it's a significant problem. and so in order for this to be real and for this actually for black voters to take this seriously, donald trump has to mean what he says and actually address issues that are important to african-americans that go beyond kind of superficial platitudes and things like that. >> yeah. i think it wouldn't hurt if he is in the apology business to go back and maybe, i don't know, take back birtherism, that might be a good idea, too. thank you, leah, we loved having you on today, definitely want to bring you back. read her book, it's terrific.

who won the week, starting with hunter walker, who won the week? >> first of all, the alt right and thiss sort of a correct term for white nationalists on fortune and their favorite website is breitbart and we saw the head of breitbart news become the head of the trump campaign, so this is a level of mainstream respectability they've never had. breitbart literally has a section called "black crime," so big win for them. i'd also ajohn podesta. we're not talking about his brother tony lobbying for him and this is a company that has been linked to paul manafort's shady nonprofit dealings on behalf of the ukrainian pro putin political party and this company, the podesta group, that john is not directly involved in, has worked for azerbaijan, a lot of unsavory folks and we're just not talking about it because trump is sucking up all the air in the room as usual.

>> he definitely is, on breitbart.com, even before they were down with the alt right, they were sliming shirley sherrod and sliming acorn to the point where acorn was pushed out of existence. they have been rotten for a long time, but now they are rotten and neo-nazi, which is always special. let's go with who won the week. >> i'm going to give it to kellyanne conway, i think she's had two good days and i don't think paul manafort had two good days. she's a ventriloquist, she's got him saying some of the right things, not all the right things, but i think, you know, as hunter says, when you have the alt right in charge, it's going to be hard for her to keep him on track, keep him away from, you know, inflammatory racist statements, but i give her credit for a couple good days. >> shows you the indiscipline of the trump campaign, rather than roll out kellyanne conway, who we know her, interviewed her, had her on, perfectly nice lady,

someone who is a pollster, doing this for a long time. >> stays on message. >> rather than roll that out and she's been a trump critic, she's been critical of the horrible things he said, if they rolled that out, they might have had a good week, but you step all over it with the breitbart thing, which makes no sense and lends credence they are not building a campaign, we do like kellyanne, please come on my show, kelgly anne, you know i like you, come on. jamil smith, who won the week? >> independent media. this week the justice department announced they are getting out of the private prison business, so what you have here is this is bidding exposed by mother jones and a reporter recently, also by the nation and other outlets that put a lot of spotlight on the waste and abuse in private prisons, so it's good to hear that the media is having that kind of effect. now, federal inmates only make up 12% of that population, so there's a long way to go, but i think it's a positive step. >> yeah, and i think it was a

good week for independent media in that sense, but bad for the sense gawker, which is a site a lot of us like, was hounded out of existence by the horrible peter thiel. he was trying to portray himself as the good guy in the op-ed was disgusting, but for him to hound gawker. the good news, they are going to wind up being part of the uni vision over there. they are building something really interesting. long live gawker, hopefully you'll come back and fight another day. i have to say who really won the week and the correct answer, the right answer is the person who created the trump statues. these are trump in the nude, in the altogether, with his, you know, two bits out, maybe one tiny, tiny little bit. that was brilliant, terrific send up to donald trump, the one thing he cannot stand is ridicule. the thing that gets at him the

most and this was an opportunity, they called it the emperor has no clothes, which i think was not that creative, but more creative was the new york parks department team that came up with the statement about taking down the statue, i thought it was terrific. do we still have leah? i want to give her the chance if she has a who won the week. do you have one for us, leah? >> i can tell you who didn't win the week, black republicans. i think we saw that a little bit earlier on. this is a real opportunity for donald trump to come out and to speak to black voters and to speak to them in their communities and, you know, in places that matter and issued that matters and instead what we got was stock and trade issues that we've heard, kind of tire ed appeals beyond the pool that african-americans -- african-american conservatives that already support donald trump. >> yeah. >> so, yeah, this is not great for them. >> no, and a lot of good folks

working at the rnc, really trying to do good work, you know, it's a tough time to be a black republican. thank you so much. that's our show for the day. "am joy" will be back tomorrow morning at 10:00 a.m. eastern. both on the track and thousands of miles away. with the help of at&t, red bull racing can share critical information about every inch of the car from virtually anywhere. brakes are getting warm. confirmed, daniel you need to cool your brakes. understood, brake bias back 2 clicks. giving them the agility to have speed & precision. because no one knows & like at&t. ...cleasee ya!ake off. when you're living with diabetes. steady is exciting. oh this is living baby! only glucerna has carbsteady, to help minimize blood sugar spikes. and try new glucerna hunger smart to help you feel full. if you'try clarispray.emes to escape your nasal allergies.

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easy to use chase technology, for whatever you're trying to master. isaac, are you ready? yeah. chase. so you can. she is a 4'8" giant and they're going to play the star spangled banner again. hi, everyone. thanks for joining us. msnbc's live olympic coverage begins today with water polo. montenegro against italy. >> you're timing is almost perfect. the bronze medal sprint here between montenegro and italy.