pregnant? are we going to be stuck with tim kaine for nine months? how does this work? >> i could send you some pamphlets that might help you understand. >> well, her delivery was fairly reminiscent of president obama's appearance in 2014. clinton is struggling to bring back the obama youth coalition, so we know there might be a lot more of zack galafanakis to help out. that's it for us. "with all due respect" starts now. it is t-minus four days until the first presidential debate and one major story is dominating the national news. the tumult in charlotte, north carolina. the tar heel state's largest city endured a second night of violent protests after the police shooting of an african-american man, keith lamont scott on tuesday. today, charlotte's chief of police said that the video of the shooting supports the

officer's version of events, but does not definitely show scott pointing that gun at police. the city refuses to lease footage to the public, but intends to show scott's family. all this followed another chaotic night of gunfire and tear gas in charlotte's city center. north carolina governor pat mccrory has declared a state of emergency. the national guard has been deployed. . and u.s. attorney general loretta lynch is sending doj officers to help local police, as another potentially tense evening approaches. police-related shootings have been one of the most explosive issues in american society for the past few years now. and it's an issue that both presidential candidates have addressed on the campaign trail. here is donald trump speaking today in pittsburgh. >> many americans are watching the unrest in charlotte unfolding, right before their eyes on the tv screens. others are witnessing the chaos and the violence firsthand. our country looks bad to the world, especially when we are

supposed to be the world's leader. how can we lead when we can't even control our own cities? we honor and recognize the right of all americans to peacefully assemble, protest, and demonstrate. but there is no right to engage in violent disruptions. >> trump's messages were, however, decidedly mixed today. at times, they displayed everyone think for the african-american community. and at other times, trump said that he would get tough on crime and suggested that drugs were a, quote, very, very big factor in the violence americans are seeing on their televisions every night. hillary clinton was off the campaign trail today, but yesterday, called the recent police shootings, quote, unbearable and intolerable. mark, this issue, these events, are sure to come up in the first presidential debate on monday. so let's step back and ask this question. in terms of both politics and policy on this topic, where do the candidates stand at this point? and what do you think the debate

between them at hofstra is likely to look like? >> well, john, first, some late-breaking news today. the district attorney in tulsa, oklahoma, charged officer betty shelby with manslaughter. she's the officer who shot to death terence crutcher, which, of course, proceeded the charlotte event, but certainly supercharged the reaction there. so that is an interesting development and will be much discussed over the coming days. but charlotte will probably remain the center of attention because of that case still playing out. and as you said, there's still some questions there about what exactly happened and the video being shown only to the family is sure to create controversy. this is an issue that both campaigns have certainly surrendered to, recognizing not just the moment of leadership that they need to step up to, but the fact that if they don't talk about this, it's likely to keep them out of the news. hillary clinton is down between now and the debate on tuesday. she doesn't plan any public events. she didn't comment today, but she has some policies she's laid

out. mostly involving more washington spending, to try to create programs on best practices and things like that. donald trump hasn't been very specific. i think this will be less about who's proposing what specifics, and more about who seems to be stepping up to try to be ready come january to deal with what is sure to be a lingering and persistent and pernicious issue for the country. >> yeah, i mean, look, the things i think you can say are the case is that hillary clinton is relatively easy to explain where she is. she has made, both because of the policy proposals you just described and her rhetorical posture, which is focussed to a large extent, not exclusively, but to a large extent on endemic racialism and racial bias in police forces, she and her position on gun violence, she has a relatively consistent position. donald trump, right now, has been trying to, i think, try to walk a tightrope mark. and they have both said things, talked about a spirit of togetherness. they've talked about needing to walk a mile in someone else's

shoes, see things in their eyes. that's all soft talk. and last night at one point, talked about stop and frisk as a potential solution. he said that's just about chicago, maybe about cleveland, but he's raised that issue. and then this thing today, this incendiary comment about drugs being a big part of what's going on in these cities. he is trying to both -- he's trying to stay out of the racial minefield, but at the same time, he wants to still be the law and order candidate. it will be interesting to see them. because as they say, hillary clinton is consistent. we know where she is. trump is kind of right now trying to have it both ways and that might not work that well for him on the debate stage. >> yep. the latest national focus on the tragedy of a police shooting of an african-american man is occurring in the midst of the end game of this presidential contest. it's also an event that happened in charlotte, north carolina. long after the national news crews pack up and go home, this shooting and the protests that have occurred, and all the emotions that both have unleashed are sure to linger in that state from now until

election day. north carolina is, as we say all the time, one of the big three battleground states that is going to play a big role in picking the next president. it's the only state barack obama won in 2008, but then lost in 2012. obama lost the tar heel state we about 100,000 votes to mitt romney. early voting in north carolina starts in less than one month, on october 20th. so john, what are the political implications of the unrest in this important political presidential battleground? >> well, i think, look, as you said, mark, it's going to be very, very close there. we all agree about that. there's been shifting demography that helps hillary clinton in north carolina and some of the political climate there has helped her, too. some of the things the state has done that have been very hard right have created a backlash in the suburban counties and elsewhere. so she seems right now to have to a slight advantage. i think the questions are among these undecided voters, are there a bunch of generally republican-leaning voters who would be attracted to trump by

his law sand order message and seeing this kind of unrest. on the other hand, will african-american voters who clinton is really trying to stir up and drive a big turnout from in the big cities of north carolina, will their turnout rise in the face of some of these events? i think it could go either way. it's not to me, clear at all. but it's clear it will have an effect. >> yeah, look, this is a test of whether donald trump can simultaneously be the law and order candidate, self-proclaimed law and order candidate, and a candidate who can reach out and be kind of a unifying figure. clearly, hillary clinton, with her campaign slogan, better -- stronger together, has emphasized unity more than confrontation, compared to trump. i agree it's going to linger, and every time either candidate goes to north carolina for the duration, they're going to have to wade back into these issue, no matter what happens. >> i would just not assume. and i think some people will assume that this is in some way a benefit to trump in that state. and look, it's a republican state in a lot of ways, but it's increasingly purple. and hillary clinton, one of her

biggest challenges right now is turnout challenges. and the reality is, her message is well-suited to african-american voters in north carolina. and if they perceive that the police are out of control, if there is a sense of injustice that becomes pervasive in that community. hillary clinton's message, i think, might be the kind of thing that catalyzes the kind of turnout that she needs in that community if she's going to win in north carolina in the fall. it could really help her, but, you know, it's a very volatile situation, politically, as well as, obviously, in terms of public safety down there right now. all right. one of the biggest unknowns about the upcoming debate is donald trump's done. will we see the unpredictable and temperament hard-edged trump we saw during the nomination process, or a kinder, gentler, less-trumpy trump, something like this. >> to the african-american community, to the hispanic community, to tall communities, i want to just say, we're going to make it right. we're going to make it great.

>> you have to have a certain spirit, a certain unity. and there's no unity. you look at the level of hatred, the rocks being thrown and everything happening, it's so sad to see. you know that this is the united states of america. i mean, it's so sad to see. but there's just no unity. there has to be a unity message somehow that has to get out. >> america desperately needs unity and it needs the spirit of togetherness that has not really only got us through our toughest times. and we've had some tough times, but which has lifted us up in the path, to our greatest achievements as a nation. every day i see people of different backgrounds, working together for a common good, and we need to bring that spirit to every part of our country. we all have to walk a mile in someone else's shoes, see things through their eyes, and then get to work fixing the hour very wounded country. i mean, it's -- we have some real problems. and we do have a wounded

country. >> so that was donald trump over the past 48 hours, talking about, obviously, the latest police-related shootings. and at times, as we saw there, if inconsistently trying to strike a softer tone. candidates often use the time leading up to an debate to practice a approach they're going to use on stage when the big game comes. so if we see a more subdued trump at hofstra on monday, the kind of trump we saw on that tape, how do you think it will play out for him? >> i think it's his best gambit. almost everybody thinks if trump can somehow sustain that over 90 minutes it will confound hillary clinton at least a little bit. i think insiders like in the media and in politics overstate the extent to which voters have paid all that much attention, even to this race, where peep are supposed to pay much attention. trump can leave a strong impression. and what people cite is his performance in mexico. i always harken back to the town hall he did with anderson cooper and his family as another example of that kind of mode.

i think if trump does that, it will be effective. i think sustaining it over 90 minutes, i don't think it's as big a challenge as people make it out to be. but trump has shown, he's not always the most disciplined candidate. >> yeah, right, look, i can't believe that it will not be his goal to try to strike that tone. whether he will be able to sustain that tone when he starts getting hit and attacked by hillary clinton, and you know she's going to. whatever, we'll talk about clinton in a second and her debate strategy, but she's going to take him on. in a minimum, she's going to take him on in a hard-edged way on policy matters. and that may provoke him and may be the thing that keeps him from being able to maintain that semi-angelic non-trumpy kind of tone for 90 minutes. he's not good at doing it when people provoke him. he's not good at staying calm in those situations. that's why i think it will be tough for him. >> yeah, you know, there's this consensus that this is what he should do. there's a consensus among people that it would put him in a strong position and kind of make things tough for her. there's this disagreement about can he do it or not?

i've never seen quite this set of circumstances. should be fascinating to watch. all right, as john said, hillary clinton has her own stylistic choices to make in advance of monday's debate. there seems to be two general schools of thought about what clinton could do here. one is that she should avoid sparring with trump at all costs. basically, not get down in the mud with him. just spend the time talking about herself, turning the other cheek, and focusing on policy and speaking to the country in a positive way. the other option she has, though, which some people believe she must do, not just should do, but must do, is to take trump down forcefully and repeatedly. skeptics of that second approach say, it would be political suicide. the evidence they point to, that all the republican presidential candidates who tangled with trump and tried to take him on did not live to tell the tale. john, where do you stand on this? should clinton go after trump? or should she focus mostly on her own story and avoid any confrontation? >> mark, you will recall in 2012, because we wrote extensively about it in a book called "double down," there was

a school of thought around president obama, that sounds a lot like the first option that you just laid out. which was, you know, don't fight, don't engage, don't get down in the mud. just talk about your vision for the country. and that caused obama to be complacent, it caused him to be verbose, to not engage with romney and get his clock cleaned in denver. i don't think that's the right track for hillary clinton. i don't think she should attack trump personally. but on the matters of substance, where she has a much better command and grasp, i think she would be foolish to not try to press trump in an aggressive way on matters of substance and policy. >> i know everybody's all excited about this debate win am too. it's going to be fascinating, no matter what. but say trump comes in and goes for all genial grandpa and say clinton comes in and goes with i'll turn the other cheek, this could be a 90-minute snooze fest. i think what she'll probably do will basically try to talk about

herself, get in little snide asides at trump and leave him with the choice about whether to respond in kind or not. delivered not a snide way, but with humor. i think from what i've been told, that she gets the fact that her best bet is to do things the way george bush and bill clinton and barack obama were all so masterful at doing. getting your shots, but try to do them in a way that seems almost lighthearted rather than mean-spirited. >> i think that makes sense. i think you have to go back to the sense, what happens on these debate stages, most of the time, is what these candidates really feel about each other comes out. she thinks trump's not -- doesn't know enough about the world and isn't qualified. forget about his temperament, just his knowledge base, i can't believe she's not going to try to draw out his -- what she sees as his ignorance on those matters. i can't believe she won't do that. >> yeah. all right, taking a break now. when we come back, what wisconsin means for donald trump's white house ambitions and your weekend travel and weather, right after this.

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everybody's talking back, talking about, talking about a slew of new battleground state polls out in the last 24 hours. a lot of numbers being discussed, but maybe the most important ones come from the great state of new hampshire. we've talked here about donald trump's very narrow path to victory, and there's a new monmouth university poll of the granite state that suggests a pretty big barrier to trump getting to 270 electoral votes. that granite state survey shows clinton up nine points over trump, 47-38%. if clinton can keep that margin in new hampshire, trump's chances of winning the white house get a lot lower. his path to victory starts where all his paths start, with florida, ohio, north carolina. most public polls, though, show trump leading or close enough to be able to say he can win in those three. again, north carolina, florida, and ohio. say he wins those and keeps all the states that mitt romney won four years ago. that gets trump to 253 electoral

votes. but from there, things get tough. he needs to win nevada, where a poll yesterday from fox shows he is up by five points, and iowa, where polls have showed him with anything from a small edge to a larger edge. give trump those two states as well. that gets him to 265. that's where trump may be hitting a wall, even giving him all those battleground states. one way to get to 270 would be to get new hampshire's electoral votes and one in maine. that would get him to exactly 270, but clinton's doing well in new hampshire right now according to most recent public polls, including the new one. what state are people talking about today? wisconsin. that's where the marquette university survey, which is considered one of the best in the state, could be another way for trump to get over the top. that poll has clinton up only three points in the badger state amongst likely voters. it's a state that president obama won by almost seven points when he was running re-election. if trump could somehow pull off

the upset in wisconsin, that would give him ten more electoral votes, that would be more than enough to win, making those other assumptions, it would give him 275 electoral votes. and he would be the next president of the united states. so john, is that wisconsin scenario a legit one? >> well, it's legit. i mean, it could happen. stranger things have happened. but wisconsin is a pretty -- i mean, we know there are republicans in wisconsin. it's not a straight blue state. but at the presidential level, it's been blue for quite a long time. it's got to be a pretty big push. plus, you remember, mark, in the wisconsin republican primary, that was the place where ted cruz won, because most of the republican establishment was ann ann anti-trump, and the only way i wa want, i would not be ready to give up entirely yet, but i

think take that seriously. >> a couple other polls show virginia closer, but clinton still with a decent lead. colorado is another place where he could subin. it starts with the romney states in north carolina, ohio, florida, and iowa, and after that nevada. but after that, again, trump could be playing in the new hampshire/maine combination, in the colorado combination, in the wisconsin combination, or the pennsylvania combination, but to say again, those are all right now states where you bet on clinton. so, he's getting -- he's getting to the point where hesita ihe i tantalizingly close to 270, but it's still not clear to identify his leading path to 270. >> just to say the obvious thing, it's getting tantalizingly close to him having a path. but it still involves him winning those three states, ohio, north carolina, and florida. at least in two of those states, north carolina and florida, he's not even ahead.

those are basically toss-up states right now. he seems a little ahead in ohio. but he's still got to run the table. it's still really tough. >> that's why i keep saying he needs a national push. but he could get a national push as early as monday. up next, we bring in reverend al sharpton to talk about what's going on in north carolina, oklahoma, and nationally, right after this. my eyelove is season 1, episode 1. my eyelove is making a story come alive. eyelove is all the things we love to do with our eyes. but it's also having a chat with your eye doctor about dry eyes that interrupt the things you love. because if your eyes feel dry, itchy, gritty, or you have occasional blurry vision, it could be chronic dry eye. go to myeyelove.com and feel the love. when this busy family... ...got a cracked windshield... ...their dad went to the new safelite-dot-com... ...and scheduled a replacement... ...in just a few clicks. with safelite you don't have to miss a thing. y'all did wonderful!

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founder and president of the national action network and host of "politics nation" on msnbc sundays at 8:00 a.m. rev, it's good to see you. the breaking news is that the police officer, betty shelby, is being charged by the d.a. in tulsa with manslaughter in the terence crutcher shooting. what's your reaction to that? >> i think it's a swift step in the right direction, in the pursuit of justice. and i think that clearly, when you look at the videotape, there is clearly enough probable cause for a charge. we will see what happens with trial. the family was in new york yesterday, they came to the headquarters of national action network and met with me and had a press conference. and we said we'd be rallying this weekend calling for justice. i will still be going to tulsa to join the family next week. i talked with one of the lawyers a few minutes ago. but i also want to see an kpamgs of the offices that were with the police woman that has been

shot. if there's any disciplinary measure there. you contrast this with the slow pace of the release of tapes in charlotte, and the fact that we still have no release of tapes to the public. we see the families going in and the family attorneys say, let's see what's there. when you can contrast tulsa moving in less than a week charging with policeman, looking at the tape, and it's not happening in charlotte, that is what exacerbating a lot of the attention and makes people feel that if you are not showing something, you might be hiding something. and i think that that's the problem. the irony is that it's a black officer and some blacks in leadership in the police department in charlotte. it's an an institutional problem, wells a race problem with policing in this country. >> reverend sharpton, what could be done to lower the level of violence in the protests in north carolina? >> i think transparency. i think that when people feel

that they're getting the facts, no matter what the facts may be, that the level of anxiety is lowered. i think when they see today what has happened in tulsa and what is not happening in charlotte, again, with even officers of their own kind, they would clearly, institutionally, react differently in black neighborhoods, than white, even when you're black, i think it increases the frustration and the anxiety. >> what are you seeing happening, obviously, when one of these horrible shootings occurs, it's a tragedy and we focus on the victims and on the immediate nature. but since we've been dealing with this for months and governments have been talking about it, what would you see happening if anything at the federal, state, or local level that encourages you to try to deal with these situations before they occur? >> i think that when i look at the president's commission on policing and the recommendations they came out, and he had met with many of the civil rights leaders and the activists and others, and formed this

commission, if those recommendations had to be followed, i think we can make real progress. i hope it's at the center of one of the segments of the debate monday night, to see if mrs. clinton or mr. trump will commit that they will uphold those recommendations, and they will recommend to law enforcement around the country they'd be implemented and translated into law. what we've not seen is a movement in this area. even ryan has been stalling on bringing about the sentencing reform bill that is bipartisan >> reverend al, stay here, and we'll continue this conversation when we come right back.

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we were back with reverend al sharpton, talking about the kind of terrible events of this week. i want to pick up where you were talking about, something we were talking about in the last block, which relates to the videotape. you clearly think the videotape in the charlotte shooting should be released.

>> i think it should be released. i think it should have been released immediately. and i think this is the case around the country. i know the attorneys for the family in charlotte has taken a more cautious view, but i think that when the public feels that there's transparency, that's the idea of saying we want body cameras. it's so that the public will be able to see. it also protects the police if, in fact, the police have done nothing that is questionable. >> well, it also removes the element of volatility and the suspicions that you were talking about before. and the suspicions breathes the volatility of what we saw last night on the streets. if the video is damning, having it out there lessens the chances of things happening. >> and i don't condone violence in any circumstance, but we understand the frustration, which now also may a reach a different kind of conversation, with tulsa charging, i can see people in charlotte saying, wait a minute, what is the problem? >> right, what do you think -- how do you think if the tape

were released and the tape were to show -- mr. scott, right, keith lamont scott, if he were holding a gun, as police have claimed, how would that change the narrative? >> i think it changes the narrative that a lot of people will say, fine, that there's nothing here, but there's still an institutional problem, because there is not the first case in charlotte. some will, no matter what happened, be angry, because of the delay but i also think that they put themselves in a very precarious position by not coming forward quickly, because now, every one will always question, well, why did it take you so long to release the tape? and i think these are the kind of things that we want to hear the candidates talk about. particularly when you have donald trump now entering stop and frisk to the dialogue, which -- i mean, to the political dialogue, which was found not only by those of us that led the protest and the

marches in new york to get rid of stop and frisk, a federal judge said it was discriminatory and unconstitutional in his hometown. and this becomes his criminal justice police position. >> i want to come back to trump and pence in a minute. but i want to go back even further than that to a comment you made earlier about, this is a case where you have a black officer and a black victim, and you made a point that there's an institutional problem here. this is ant racial problem or the racial problem is subsumed in a broader institutional -- >> about racism. >> say more about that. >> i think the institutional problem is, where you set up where police seem to operate, where they are outside of the transparency and scrutiny that gives the community confidence, that they are there as their partner, not there as some occupied force, black or white. and they have this blue wall of silence we call in new york, that we're going to protect each

other, rather than we're there to uphold the law. that's an institutional problem. black cops operate in black communities differently than they do in white communities. you have to ask yourself if that same black officer that killed scott, if he was in a white area in north carolina and saw a white, he says, with a gun, and i don't know if scott had a gun or not, would he not have asked that guy, do you have a permit for a gun, because you can carry guns in north carolina? why would she shoot? and i think that those are the questions that lead to a lot of the protests and, unfortunately, to violence. >> you know, in both -- in terms of the terrorist incidents that have happened here, particularly since what happened here in new jersey and new york, people have talked about the notion that there's a -- kind of a shoot to wound, as opposed to shoot to kill in certain circumstances. in other situations, we seem to have more of a shot to kill phenomenon. do you see there's a dichotomy between those two, and just talk about that and how the police approach, not just being quick

on the trigger, but how they use their guns in certain circumstances. >> when you look at inside of one week that you have a terrorist attack by many's definition, in new york and new jersey, and this guy shot at police, and they wounded him and take him in. and you have a guy who's car broke down in tulsa, hands up, and he's killed. after being tasered. you have to ask yourself, what is the police policy. what is being done in training, and why is it different strokes for different folks, as we like to say. clearly, the man brought in on the attacks in new york in chelsea and in new jersey was a danger, he was shooting at policemen. and they found a way to bring him in alive. you couldn't find a way to bring a man in alive whose car broke down and you have a policeman in a helicopter looking down on a guy saying, he looks like a bad

dude. how does he look like a bad dude with his hands up, but he's not a bad dude that was shooting at police in new york. many of us see that as a real graphic example of the difference in how people treat situations differently in law enforcement. >> so donald trump has talked in a slightly softer tone about some of these things over the last 48 hours. but in some cases, he is talked with less soft tone. you mentioned the stop and frisk point. the other point today in pittsburgh, you said that drugs have -- have been a very, very big factor in what you're seeing on television these last couple of nights. how do you relate to the notion that drugs have been a big factor? >> first of all, i think that when you bring up stop and frisk, that has been proven to be discriminatory, by even the courts. a white male named bill de blasio beat a black in a primary in new york because bill de blasio came out against stop and frisk and a black candidate didn't. so how mr. trump who lives in new york, and i assume votes

here, didn't know the difference here, is beyond me. but when you look at the fact that he brings up drugs, drugs was, in fact, aware. there's the allegation that in tulsa, that the victim had drugs in the car. well, unless the policeman had x-ray vision, that had nothing to do with him being tasered or shot. so where is trump getting this? >> i think he's suggesting that drugs are fueling some of the rioting or some of the disturbances on the streets in charlotte. i think that's what he's suggesting. >> even if he was just there, then by what evidence is he bringing this up. and is this not fitting into the stereotyping of drugs and blacks and supporti ining a lot of, ths also why we have to frisk them. the irony is he brings the stop and frisk in the middle of these shootings when there were no stop and frisk issues at all. in charlotte, they stopped this guy with a bullet and frisked him after he was dead. so, i don't even know where he went and got stop and frisked,

other than if that's his solution to gun violence. and that has been proven in new york, stop and frisk has gone down from almost 700,000 stops to under 20,000 and crime has gone down. so it doesn't even answer the gun violence argument. >> reverend al sharpton, always a pleasure to see you. and thank you for the words of wisdom and for being on the show. check out "politics nation," the rev's show, on msnbc on sundays at 8:00 a.m. up next, we'll preview the presidential debate with two top political minds. and if you happen to be watching from washington, d.c., you can listen to us on the radio at bloomberg 91.1 f.m. we'll be right back. (engine revs) the things it does to your parade. we've got a saying about rain, too: when it rains... it roars. the all-wheel-drive charger. domestic. not domesticated.

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are you down with tpp? >> i'm not down with tpp. >> no, you're supposed to say, yeah, you know me, like the hip hop -- >> don't tell me what to say. >> let's talk about trump. >> oh, let's. >> do you see how well it works for donald trump, do you ever think to yourself, oh, maybe i should be more racist? we should stay in touch. what's the best way to reach you? e-mail? >> you've got mail. >> oh, we were four days away from the first presidential debate and hillary clinton is taking most of this week off the campaign trail to prepare for the big event. that brilliant piece of tape with zach galfanakis was recorded last week.

here's is chris duhaime, the national party's political director at one time, and former democratic governor of michigan, jennifer granholm, a senior adviser for the pro-clinton group, correct the record, and who also played sarah palin during joe biden's debate prep in 2008. she's coming to us live from oakland, california. that was a couple of long intros for you two people. governor granholm, let me ask you this question. we were just discussing earlier on the show, and i know we've talked about debate prep with you before, but we were discussing this on the show earlier, hillary clinton, should she go after donald trump or should she just basically talk about herself? >> well, she should start by talking about herself. there's no doubt about that. but she can't let him get away with attacks that are untrue or statements that are complete blatant falsehoods. so if the moderator doesn't step up to the plate, i think she's got to correct the record, if you will. but you've got to do it in a way that is, you know, she can do it with humor, she can do it with a lighter touch, she can point out to the audience this and such.

but i do think that you cannot let a falsehood stand. >> what do you think about that, mike, if you were advising hillary clinton and you had a new boss, encountered donald trump on a fair number of debate stages this past year, having seen that you know fold, what advice would you give to secretary clinton? >> i agree with the governor completely on that. i think that donald trump was very effective when he went at jeb bush, when he went at ted cruz. i think they had a hard time -- they had a hard time responding to him, because he kind of breaks the debate rules in terms of the attacks sometimes are very unpredictable, and i think that will be the difficult part more secretary clinton, but i agree that she should stand up and aggressive pack. >> let me postulate -- >> also, i think the moderator is going to ask, you know is going to ask some of the tough, pointed questions against each of them. the real question you're asking is, should she allow a falsehood to stand. should she go after him that way, or should she affirmatively go after him, which might be territory like, for example, on the trump foundation, which

might be territory that the actual moderator might be going after. so if she has to gauge who she's going to allow to do the actual direct attacks on him. >> i think -- i'm going to ask you this question as a follow-up to that. i think the notion that if trump decides to go after her in a head-on way, whether that's on her character, on her ethics, on some personal grounds. obviously, no one would dispute the right tactic at that point is to fight back. she can't just get beat up by him. the question, i think, is if trump decides to be presidential and tries to be a softer, gentler, kinder donald trump. >> which he did in the debates. >> right, what does she do then? >> i think she should be trying to let people know her. it sounds bad to say, but while she's winning right now, she's winning based on people who really don't like her and don't trust her voting for her. and i think if she can continue to show that command of the issues, but i think if she can show her human side a little bit more and get people to like her a little bit more and just take that edge off a little bit, with

i think that can help her a lot. >> governor granholm -- >> i cannot believe. i mean, we're both agreeing. i'm saying, am i saying something wrong? people have no doubt that she knows the issue. people know her as a commander in chief. she doesn't have to prove that. but what an opportunity for her to show that lighter side. i'm so glad you showed the "between the ferns" interview. because she's got game p. i mean, she's got a great sense of humor. it would be nice to have her enjoy it. be the happy warrior. >> i don't think people see that. i agree with you, but i don't think people see it. people outside of you and others who know her, i don't think people see that. >> is there a play in the context of a debate, a gladtorial enterprise, is there a way for hillary clinton to do some good for herself in terms of helping what is a problem for her, the perception that she's not honest, not trustworthy. there is ample polling, right, the people find trump more honest and trustworthy.

is there something she could do to help prepare her negatives in this context? >> absolutely. >> the interesting thing is, if you watch or read the right websites, you know, the echo chambers that are on both the right and the left, people who on the right who are not in favor of her, have this image of her as this demon in some ways. she's going to be able to have them watching her. and she'll be able to present herself in a way that they might be surprised at. you know, in a way that allows her to be human like that. i think -- you know, this idea of her, you know, her showing her heart, her soul about why she's running, who she's running for. she's running for them. she wants hem to see it. it's not just about the details of her policies. it's why she's there, to show the real her. i think there is a huge opportunity for that. >> what's your advice to donald trump if you were advising donald trump about how he should conduct himself and what his main goal of this debate should be?

>> i would think to show that he has some chops on the policy side. that's where people have doubts. that's where secretary clinton should have a great advantage on that. but that's where the question will be on donald trump. this will be the first opportunity where he has to really probably answer some tough questions in long format and i think to show some depth on policy will really strengthen him a lot and allowing people to see him as more presidential than they do before the debate. >> i have one last question -- >> but, john, can i just say, on that, so you have said before and mark has said before, that the bar for him is low. so her challenge -- he's a tv star, he knows how to deal with the camera, but he doesn't know policy that well, or at least he hasn't shown that. i just hope as you review this that you do not allow that bar to exist for him. they should be dealt with evenly. they should be held to the same standard. >> john, i'm not going to boss you around. >> i'll tell you both, we always have a high bar here for guests and you have both cleared that high bar with flying colors. the question i want to ask you

both if moderators should be fact checkers. >> yes! >> but we don't have time. >> i think so. >> oh, we have a lovefest here on the set of "with all due respect". >> i can't believe it! >> governor, good to be on with you. >> likewise. okay, coming up, we'll talk with two reporters about what they're hearing about how the candidates are actually preparing for the big debate as opposed to how they should prepare for the big debate, which we just heard now. we'll be right back. healthy, free, the world before me, the long brown path before me leading wherever i choose. the east and the west are mine. the north and the south are mine. all seems beautiful to me. whfight back fastts, with tums smoothies. it starts dissolving the instant it touches your tongue.

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we are joined now by bloomberg politics reporter jennifer epstein who has been following hillary clinton's campaign around the country, and nbc correspondent kelly o'donnell who is with us from 30 rock and knows pretty much everything about everything. kelly, i'm starting with you right now. we've been talking about debate prep in the back half of this show. hillary clinton off the trail, focused on this matter. what do you know? >> well, this is a work day about debate prep. she is off the trail and doing her debate prep near home, somewhat at home, and one of the things we heard from governor granholm really does give us an

idea of what the clinton team wants. they want to set the conditions before the debate. to encourage voters and perhaps those who are analyzing this to grade this not on a trump curve. they argue that he gets one-dimensional questions, he gets easy questions when he interviewed or participates in debates. he is not held to the same policy standards and the same fact standards. so, there's a small group of clinton officials who are with her, who are a part of this. she has done both reading, studying prep, as well as realtime, sort of mock debate dress rehearsal prep. and it is a closely guarded secret, how all of that is going. some of her close friends in the party don't know what's happening inside the room, or at least they say they don't, in terms of who they have found to play donald trump. i can tell you that i'm told that a number of people stepped forward offering to play donald trump for her, but we don't know yet who the identity is, maybe jen does, about who is playing

that and who is acting as the moderator. but part of the process has been going through things, they anticipate, and preparing for different trumps. will it be the bombastic trump, the cutting, hillary clinton trump, will it be trump trying to be more statesmen like. and they have watched his debate performances, none of which has ever been one on one, but they have looked at that and said he tends to hang back and pick his moments and they want to be ready for that. >> i'm thing it's going to be mad cap, like charlie chapman trump, is the trump we're going to get. kelly just teed you up, so, you know who's playing trump, do you? >> i wish i did. that's like the biggest little scoop let there is, right now. >> that would be a scoop, not a scoop let. a full-blown scoop. >> a full cone of ice cream there. you know, this is a moment where there is, obviously, a lot of expectation setting happening on both sides of the clinton people, kind of acknowledge that, yes, she is going to -- that they believe that she will perform well. jennifer palmieri said that on the plane to all the press

yesterday. they can't hide that fact. but they do, again, want this to be judged fairly. they do want the moderator to step in and be tough on trump, and not just be tough on her because she has, you know, more of a record of having served in the senate and served as secretary of state, which is sort of what happened during the veteran's town hall a couple weeks ago, and that's a concern that they have. and that kind of gave them a chance to say, look, we need to make sure that trump is asked the same kinds of questions as secretary clinton is asked. and at the same time, i think that there is this dynamic of, you know, who's going to actually do the fact checking? is it going to be lester holt as a moderator or is it going to be secretary clinton saying to trump, you just said something that's wrong, here's what's right. and if they get into a factual back and forth and how much of her time she's willing to use on that kind of stuff. >> they've been trying to do this thing for a little while now, which is to try to say to us, as reporters, all of this sort of say, there's been a double standard here, you guys need to raisehe barn trump.

do you think they have been somewhat successful in trying to do that in the last couple of weeks. do you feel like they're getting somewhere? >> i think they feel like reporters will be a little bit embarrassed if they say that trump won just because trump didn't, you know, fall on his face. and -- which i don't think he will, and, you know, but that's -- when they look back of some of the policy-type speeches or the re-set speeches that he's given in the past, that there have been kind of reviews from pundits saying he did well, just because he didn't, just, you know, go off script. >> kelly, in my sense, i talked to mike mccurry last night in washington, d.c. and he was very up-front. he cochairs one of the commissions on presidential debates. he said, i don't think moderators should be fact checkers. i think it should be up to the standard that chris wallace set. it's up to the candidates. i'm there to ask the question. if there's going to be fact checking, it should be each candidate fact checking the other. do you think if that is the case, hillary clinton is ready

for that and ready to play that role on stage, fact checking trump in realtime? >> i think she is ready for that, but she'd like to help from the moderator. and i'll abstain on the specifics, because it's my colleague, lester holt. but traditionally, moderators have been keeping time and asking questions. because usually the fact checking is open to interpretation. it's not just adding up the math. it's how people view the facts. and that's where it can be very thorny for moderators to step in. on the other hand, trump today was doing a very trump-like pregame. he was in philly, went to a gino's, you know, the steak sandwich and said, everything's going fine. he's not holed up practicing. he's kind of doing sundays at bedminster with his close circle, throwing questions around over fast food. a different approach. >> and having a cheesesteak. who can crises a man for having a cheesesteak. jennifer epstein and kelly o'donnell, thank you, you're both awesome. we'll be right back. en i'm really excited and thrilled.

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up dalai lama and trump. you'll be glad you did. the second is we are partnering with twitter for special coverage of the presidential debate this monday, starting at 6:00 p.m. eastern on twitter. until tomorrow, siayonarasayona. a city on edge and a nation divided. let's play "hardball." and good evening. i'm steve kornacki in for chris matthews, who is in ireland to receive the tip o'neil irish diaspra award. meanwhile, charlotte, north carolina, is bracing for violence tonight. the national guard has arrived to try to prevent what would be a third consecutive night of unrest in the wake of police-involved shooting of 34-year-old keith lamont scott. demonstrations spiraled out of control around 8:00 p.m. last nigh