this sunday, politics, sexual harassment and re-examining old attitudes. nine women now have come forward with accusations against republican roy moore. >> he just grabbed my behind. >> i thought that he was going to rape me. >> but moore and his supporters remain defiant. >> and i'll quit standing when they lay me in that box and put me in the ground. >> are republicans better off without roy moore in the senate? then democratic senator al franken facing his own accusation. >> his smashed his lips against my face and stuck his tongue in my mouth so fast. >> and now the country is

revisiting previous allegations and denials. my guests this morning, republican congresswoman barbara comstock and democratic congresswoman debbie dingell. plus, house republicans pass their tax plan. >> this is about giving hard-working taxpayers bigger paychecks, more take-home pay. >> now it's the senate's turn. >> i just think it would be nice just tonight before we go home to just acknowledge this tax cut is really not for the middle class, it's for the rich. >> is the kax plan -- tax plan really for the middle class? i'll ask white house budget director mick mulvaney and republican senator roy blunt of missouri. joining me for insight and analysis are amy walter, robert costa of "the washington post" and "washington week." joy reid, host of "a.m. joy" on msnbc, and rich lowry, editor of "national review. welcome to sunday, it's "meet the press." from nbc news in washington, the longest running show in television history, celebrating

its 70th year, this is "meet the press" with chuck todd. >> and good sunday morning, i'm andrea mitchell. chuck todd is off today. when the stories about harvey weinstein first broke last month, many thought the outrage over sexual misconduct would pass like a summer storm. now it feels more like climate change, with nine women coming forward with accusations against alabama republican senate candidate roy moore, republicans are trying to figure out whether to accept him, disown him, or, if necessary, expel him. then just as democrats were enjoying republican hand-wringing over moore came the compelling accusation by a radio host and former model against one of their own, senator al franken of minnesota. and if that were not enough, the national revulsion towards this kind of behavior is forcing republicans to confront the fact that the president stands accused by more than a dozen women of sexual misconduct and

compelled democrats to re-examine their up waving support for bill clinton especially how quickly they once dismissed the charges against him as pure right wing politics. still, this week's accusations against moore and franken differed in degree and in their response. >> yes, i have taken a stand in the past, i'll take a stand in the future, and i'll quit standing when they lay me in that box and put me in the ground. >> roy moore, now facing accusations from nine women, including molesting a 14-year-old, assaulting a 16-year-old, and unwanted sexual advances. >> he just grabbed my behind, i mean forcefully grabbed it. >> i was terrified. he was also trying to pull my shirt off. i thought that he was going to rape me. >> moore denies all of the claims and defended by his wife says he will stay in the race. >> even after all the attacks against me, against my family, against the foundation and now against my husband, he will not

step down. >> a fox news poll shows moore now trailing democrat doug jones by eight points among likely voters, while senate republicans call on moore to get out. >> i think he should step aside. >> president trump is dodging questions. >> should roy moore resign, mr. president? >> leaving responses to the white house staff. >> he said if the allegations are true, he should step aside. >> but mr. trump was quick to weigh in on new allegations against democratic senator al franken, tweeting the al frankenstein picture is really bad, speaks a thousand words. where do his hands go in pictures 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6 while she sleeps? the picture is this one, of franken in 2006 before he was in politics. radio host leeann tweeden said he forcibly kissed her rehearsing for a skit on tour with the uso. >> he stuck his tongue in my mouth so fast. >> franken has apologized. >> dear leeann, i want to apologize to you personally. i don't know what was in my head when i took that picture, but that doesn't matter. there's no excuse, and i understand why you can feel violated by that photo.

>> many democrats calling for a senate ethics investigation which franken agrees to. by condemning franken, the -- the president isry newing allegations on those closer to home. more than a dozen women came forward during the campaign accusing mr. trump of sexual misconduct after this "access hollywood tape surfaced a year ago. >> when you're a star, you can do anything. grab them by the [ bleep ]. >> the white house is struggling to make a distinction. >> i think in one case specifically senator franken has admitted wrongdoing and the president hasn't. >> also getting new scrutiny, president bill clinton who held a campaign reunion of his campaign victory in little rock saturday night. two days after kirsten gillibrand, who the clintons helped elect, said he should have resigned in the 1990s following the monica lewinsky scandal. in a radio interview friday, hillary clinton firing back. >> this was a painful time not only in our marriage but in our country, as i've written about. but it was investigated fully,

it was addressed at the time. he was held accountable. >> and joining me now are two members of congress, each of whom has shared stories that they have heard or experienced of sexual harassment on capitol hill. republican barbara comstock of virginia and democrat debbie dingell of michigan. welcome both. first to you, both of you, about what you've experienced and seen on the hill. debbie dingell, you've talked about experiencing sexual harassment over the course of your long career. >> you know, on friday i wasn't planning on going out and doing that me too moment because i know that there are consequences. and the point that i was trying to make on friday was that there are women across the country, restaurant workers, tip waitresses, factory floors, law firms, corporations. so i don't know a woman that doesn't have a story, andrea, in all places all across the country. what are we trying to accomplish from this right now? and that is to look forward.

and how do we change the culture and make this not -- it's safer for us to talk about it. but if you're from hollywood or the media or on capitol hill, though i got a lot of ugly comments on friday but also had a waitress that was 21 years old say to me, you spoke for me today. a woman who told me, a 22-year-old woman that her boss told her to close the door and get up on the table to dance. let's really make this a watershed moment that men and women across the country work together to look forward to changing the culture. >> barbara comstock, we've been here before. i covered the clarence thomas/anita hill hearings. i was on "meet the press" that sunday during that horrible weekend. nothing has changed over these decades. >> well, i serve on the committee, the house administration committee that had the hearings this week and i shared a story that had been relayed to me anonymously. >> i want to ask you about that story. >> it was a friend of mine who told me about a victim who wanted to remain anonymous, but

a current member, sitting member of congress, i don't know if it's democrat or republican, i don't know who it is, but asked this staffer to come over, bring some papers, you know, to his residence and then arrived in a towel at the door. had the staffer come in and then exposed himself. she left. she then quit her job and has now moved on. but my friend relayed this story to me to understand this is going on right now. i can tell you from the hearing that we had this week, we had a lot of consensus on the changes that need to be made. i got together with congresswoman jackie speier and congressman burn and we all went through the items and congresswoman speier's bill and additional things that we want to put in the bill. we are on the same page. we are going to get mandatory training, universal, uniform anti-harassment, zero tolerance policies in place. we are not going to allow members to have any kind of fund pay for their harassment. that is universally agreed on. and we are also going to have better policies for the victims.

so i think this is going to be a change, and i think both debbie and i want to keep the focus on these women who are experiencing this and use our voices in this moment to change this. we've had a great response from both the men and the women on a bipartisan basis. like debbie said, people are coming up to us. >> one of the things that came out of your hearing, congresswoman, is that $15 million was spent over the last two decades to pay off -- for all kinds of harassment. >> that's been incorrectly reported. we don't know exactly what portion that is because this includes the architect at the capitol, capitol police and allegations against staff. so we're trying to fine out -- >> and it's not all sexual harassment. >> i was going to make that point. >> age discrimination, wage and hours, overtime, but we are going to clearly say any kind of member harassment cannot come out of any fund. they have to pay that themselves. >> and be transparent. you forgot to mention that. the other thing there's agreement on is if something is found, it must be transparent. we're going to try to find out.

you know -- >> corporate america has been doing this for years. >> for years. i mean i also -- we were talking about how do we make this a movement that makes it across the country. so people do these -- what infuriates me is these confidentiality agreements. they go and do the settlement and nobody can talk about it. we should be talking about it on the hill and talking about it across the country. let's look at what happened with uber and silicon valley. >> let's talk about politics here. roy moore, nine women have now come forward. many people say credibly reporting, you know, actions when to someone who is as young as 14, a molestation, sexual unforced -- rather forced sexual attention on a 16-year-old, congresswoman, do you find these women credible? >> yes, i do. last week i think i was the first woman in the house to come out and say he should step aside. i've been consistent in all these matters you've talked about. >> how do you view the fact the president refuses to even comment on it?

>> i appreciate that the president was working with the white house and they have cut off funding to him. the national senatorial committee is not funding it. you've seen people across the board, ted cruz, mike lee withdraw their support and say he should step aside. i still hope he would do that and do the right thing. >> roy moore was tweeting -- >> for that matter al franken can hit the door with him. >> roy moore was tweeting al franken admits guilt after photographic evidence of his abuse surfaces. mitch, let's investigate. mitch mcconnell. in alabama, according to his tweet, zero evidence allegations, 100% rejected, mitch, moore must quit or be expelled. is there a double standard here? >> i don't think there's a double standard. i think we've got to be very careful. i am going to say this, everybody is entitled to be innocent until proven guilty. but when people come forward, there's a large group of people. but al franken is going to the ethics committee. let's see where that goes. are there more stories? we can't defend any of this. these gotcha questions, there is despicable, ugly behavior across the country.

men and women together. here we are, a women's panel. this isn't going to get fixed. men have wives, sisters, daughters, friends, families. we've got to fix this together and change the culture. by the way, it's been going on for too long. it's not just these men, there are a thousand names out there, many of them are dead now. let's fix the problem. >> is democrat -- >> let's get the focus back on the women too because they are the victims. >> is democratic senator kirsten gillibrand wrong when she says bill clinton should have resigned back in the lewinsky scandal? debbie dingell? >> i have a thousand thoughts on all this. by the way, the names we're talking about, you and i both know these stories go back forever. i want to go forward. because i don't want to make sensational news. do you beat your wife? i think this is despicable. i think that we've got to focus on what the future is. doing gotcha questions to people

like us isn't going to solve the problem and we've got to start moving forward. >> and i think one of the things that we've talked about too is having these workplace surveys, really understanding the problem. and i think we do. the politics is going to sort itself out, but for the women in our workplace but also women in workplaces across the country, we need to make sure there are really understanding what the problem is, who are victims, and we know predators target people who are weak and can't come forward. so we need to use this moment where those of us who are in a position to do it can come forward and get -- say there's going to be zero tolerance. we want it enforced in congress same rules as everybody else and we want the corporate world and hollywood -- one of the things we're doing is saying harvey weinstein was running all these settlements and payments perhaps through his business. you cannot take a taxpayer deduction for that. that is going to end. >> we're going to have to leave it there. we'll see whether this is a change, a real change or whether it's just more of the same. >> and we are committed to getting the legislation through.

>> we all, all of us, have to bring about real change in this country. >> congresswomen, thank you both very much. as we mentioned, roy moore is digging in, refusing calls from fellow republicans that he back down and get out of the race. moore campaign strategist dean young spoke out this week on why his candidate is keeping his campaign going. >> what's happening is we're watching a coup attempt by the people of washington, d.c., the elitists, mitch mcconnell, lindsey graham and all that type. they're trying to stop an election of the people of alabama before it even happens because they have already been beaten badly after they spent $31 million trying to beat judge moore. >> and joining me now is the republican senator from missouri, roy blunt. senator, great to see you, thank you very much. >> good to be with you. >> so roy moore is accusing mitch mcconnell and the rest of the senate establishment republicans of trying to drive him out of office.

is he correct? >> well, i don't know if he's correct or not, but we're at a point now where really alabama voters are going to make that decision. and in the senate, no matter who gets elected from alabama or what happens with anybody else, we need to be sure that we've got an environment where people want to come and be part of that, where women are comfortable being part of that. my chief of staff is a woman, my legislative director is a woman, my press person is a woman. i wouldn't want to have an environment where you couldn't have the best people come, so we've put together a working group, senator klobuchar, and cortez master and senator capito and senator shelby, we proposed changing the rules so there's mandatory orientation towards these things that shouldn't happen so people know what is perceived to be inappropriate and also to change the law. going back to the 1980s where it may have seemed reasonable at the time, but in the current law if you report harassment, you're the one that has to go into 20 hours of counseling before you can decide whether you were

really harassed or not, that's just totally inappropriate. >> politically, are republicans better off if roy moore wins or if he loses? if he loses the seat or whether he wins and democrats think they have an issue going forward? >> well, you know, i said that i thought the women's story was more credible than his response, that alabama voters deserved a better choice. but they're going to have to make that decision. they know roy moore a whole lot better than i do. i've met him once. they watched him in a pretty controversial career for 20 years. we'll just have to see what they do. >> you say that the women's stories were credible. what about the women, more than a dozen, who came out during the 2016 campaign against president trump. were they credible? >> well, whatever they had to say, people heard that and they elected president trump the president of the united states, so at some point i think you have to let the voters have a say here. >> now, with al franken, republicans are seizing on that. the president has been silent on roy moore since he came back

from his trip to asia, yet he seized on al franken's acknowledged misconduct. franken immediately apologized and welcomes an ethics investigation, not to excuse what he did. but the fact that the president is so quick to jump on al franken but is still silent on roy moore of his own party. >> well, i think somebody who -- i think congresswoman dingell just said you're innocent until proven guilty unless you say you did it. al franken of course said i did this. he said i'm sorry for it but he also said he did it. i think the president understands you can be accused of lots of things in politics and we'll see what voters decide. >> i want to briefly ask you about your own colleague in missouri, claire mccaskill, has talked about the fact that she was a victim of sexual harassment when she was an intern. your own women colleagues have experienced this as well. >> well, absolutely, and it's totally unacceptable. back to what i said to start with, in the congress of the united states, you want to have an environment where people are

comfortable, wanting to work there, saying they work there, putting on their resume in future years they worked there without feeling like there was an environment that wasn't open and appropriate in both seeking opinions and seeking the kind of advice that the country and the congress needs. >> now, after an event on tax reform, which is the big issue facing the senate now, your colleague in arizona, jeff flake, was caught on an open mike saying this. >> become the party of roy moore and donald trump, we are toast. >> what about the political fallout from all of this, and from the impression that this tax bill is opposed by 59% of americans right now according to the latest quinnipiac poll. >> well, i think that your comment there after an event on tax reform, so all these things

do is they take attention, if we don't handle the environment correctly, if we don't have the rules correctly, because tax reform clearly is going to affect the country. it's going to affect our economic future. looking at the way that the tax bill has been reported, i can understand people's concern about it. but when you look at the real tax bill, both house and senate, i think it's designed to do two things. one is to create immediately more take-home pay for hard-working families, and the second thing at the other end of the scale, do whatever we can to be sure there are better jobs in the future for those very same families. we've had eight years of economic stagnation for hard-working families and this tax bill i think creates the opportunity to move dramatically beyond that. >> there's plenty of evidence from republicans as well as democrats that, first of all, the corporate taxes are permanent. the individual taxes expire in about a decade. it blows a hole in the deficit

of at least $1.5 trillion, but by many nonpartisan estimates, as much as $2.2 trillion if you take away the gimmicks to just get it under that budget ceiling for now. >> well, it doesn't take much in economic growth to offset both of those numbers. if we get back to the 70-year average of 3.2% growth instead of the obama year average of less than 2, we're up to 3 already. we're anticipating in this bill 2.6. every tenth of a percent of growth there makes a huge difference in federal revenue. if you believe tax policy has economic consequences, you don't statically score that, you score that based on what those consequences will be. and i've talked to lots of economists about this who are usually pretty gloomy, who have been very optimistic that this bill does what we hope it would do in terms of making us more competitive all over the world. >> at a recent "wall street journal" interview with gary cohn, of course the top economic

advisor in the white house, they polled the audience, the ceos in that group, who among you would actually reinvest this tax cut into your company and raise wages and only five people in this large group raised their hands. that has not been the history. corporations don't reinvest this kind of money. when have any of these protections actually proved true? >> oh, i think they do reinvest and i think one of the things you do in this tax bill is you create an opportunity to bring maybe as much as $2 trillion back into our economy that's currently overseas because of our tax policy. you want to talk about a stimulus, we've never actually even imagined a stimulus that would be $2 trillion of other money coming back to the country. i've asked ceos who have that money over there how much of it they'd bring back. generally the answer is all of it that we haven't invested there, and that's most of it. >> is it going to pass the senate? >> i think we'll pass the senate. >> thank you so much.

and then it has to be reconciled with the house which is another whole issue. >> i think these bills are very reconcilable. on the big issues, there are some things -- >> with or without the repeal of the obamacare individual mandate? >> it depends on where the votes are. i think the poor people pay that tax. 80% of the people that pay that tax have total family income of less than $50,000. it's one of the many fallacies of obamacare, taxing the people that you theoretically are telling -- >> of course without the mandate, though, 13 million people could lose their insurance. >> but all of the incentives, all of the so payments, everything else are still in there. there's nothing that changes in terms of people's ability to take full advantage of the parts of the aca that encourage people to have insurance. it just decides you're not going to tax people for something that they think they can't afford to do. >> senator, we have to leave it there. thank you very much. >> good to be with you. >> a quick programming note. monday on the "today" show, savannah guthrie will sit down

with leigh corfman in his first -- in her first television interview since she accused roy moore of sexual harassment when she was only 14 years old. when we come back, much more on roy moore, al franken, and our changing definition of what is unacceptable behavior. stay with us. you nervous? ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ the uncertainties of hep c. wondering, what if? i let go of all those feelings. because i am cured with harvoni. harvoni is a revolutionary treatment for the most common type of chronic hepatitis c.

it's been prescribed to more than a quarter million people. and is proven to cure up to 99% of patients who have had no prior treatment with 12 weeks. certain patients can be cured with just 8 weeks of harvoni. before starting harvoni, your doctor will test to see if you've ever had hepatitis b, which may flare up and cause serious liver problems during and after harvoni treatment. tell your doctor if you've ever had hepatitis b, a liver transplant, other liver or kidney problems, hiv or any other medical conditions and about all the medicines you take including herbal supplements. taking amiodarone with harvoni can cause a serious slowing of your heart rate. common side effects of harvoni include tiredness, headache and weakness. ready to let go of hep c? ask your hep c specialist about harvoni. pai'm open to that.medicare? lower premiums? extra benefits? it's open enrollment. time to open the laptop... ...and compare medicare health plans. why? because plans change, so can your health needs. so, be open-minded. look at everything-like prescription drug plans...

and medicare advantage plans from private insurers. use the tools at medicare.gov. or call 1-800-medicare. open to something better? start today. ♪

and welcome back. the panel is all here, robert costa of "the washington post" and host of pbs' "washington week." joy reid, host of "a.m. joy" on msnbc. amy walter, national political editor of "the cook political report." and rich lowry, editor of "national review." welcome all. first of all, i want to ask you -- let's talk about roy moore. andrew sullivan wrote that there is a moment here that no party is immune from evil, no tribe has a monopoly of good. if these bipartisan sex abuse revelations can begin to undermine the tribalism that so poisons our public life to reveal that beneath the tribes we are all flawed and human, they may not only be a long overdue turning point for women, they may be a watershed for all of us.

amy walter, what do you think? we have been here before. >> we have been here before. i thought it was important that you raised the anita hill/clarence thomas moment where it felt like the world had changed, sort of spun on its axis. we elected more women to congress in 1992, a year after those hearings, and yet it's now 2017 and it feels like we haven't gone very far. i feel like where we are right now is the dam has broken, and yet we don't know what to do with all the water, right? so we say, yes, it's there, but now what do we do with the situation that we're in? and i don't think it's going to be solved in one election cycle with one candidate, and i don't think it's going to be solved for the whole host of other women who aren't in as congresswoman dingell said, powerful positions or feel like they still are without a voice. they still feel scared and vulnerable. >> rich lowry, peggy noonan wrote this weekend that the women of alabama are now being challenged.

she said roy moore targeted the deplorables, that was an intentional word. they were people with no sway, no pull. some of them in the presidential election voted for donald trump. there are better conservatives in alabama than roy moore. republican women, rise up and raise hell. that would be real loyalty, and to those who really are your own. what is the impact on republicans in alabama? >> i think it should have been incumbent on the republican party to give their voters a better choice. and that would have fundamentally president trump weighing in very heavily against roy moore and pressuring state party officials saying, look, you don't have a future in this party unless you find some way to leverage this guy out of this race. it didn't happen. now roy moore is running the only race he can, which is saying all these attacks on me are attacks on you, my supporters, and against mitch mcconnell. it goes to the cynical demagoguery of the likes of steve bannon. if roy moore killed someone with an ax, steve bannon would say

it's mitch mcconnell's fault. >> there's a real challenge here for republicans because in washington, the republicans i'm talking to in the senate, they feel totally boxed in. president trump is not weighing in. he's not trying to get moore out of the race. and they know if roy moore wins, the senate -- the senate if you're running next year, he becomes a huge burden. if he somehow loses, the 52-seat majority becomes a 51-49 just as they're trying to pass tax reform. but it's a very difficult situation when you have governor kay ivey, a republican woman, saying she's going to vote for roy moore. mitch mcconnell has sway but not enough sway to change this race. >> he's viewed as part of the washington establishment. >> the fact that this is a calculation, we're talking about something of such a different degree. you talked about all of the past scandals, you talked about the monica lewinsky situation which was clearly an improper relationship. but we're talking about children. we're talking about multiple allegations of the abuse of children, and the fact that it's even a question i think speaks to the position that the republican party finds it's in

morally. this should not be a question, and the fact that people are struggling with whether or not they should continue to support roy moore for reasons of party, politics, power and tribe is incredibly disturbing. >> is the president silent on this, robert costa, according to your reporting because of his own past? and why did he jump on al franken then so quickly, because that made it inevitable that people would be talking about his own record. >> talking to people inside of the white house and around president trump, i said why did he jump in on franken and they said that he could not resist, that he had to take a shot at franken. but he's reluctant because of what happened last year with "access hollywood." he knows he was able to escape that controversy and win the presidency, but he doesn't want to wade into his own experiences in the past. so he's trying to have the best of both worlds, they tell me. >> can i say just partisan tribalism obviously affects both sides. now all of a sudden we have a lot of liberals and democrats who are getting virtue on bill clinton saying things they could

have said not just 20 years ago but could have said last year and they're only saying it now because the clintons are yesterday and the past of the democratic party. >> they're yesterday, but the republicans perennially drag them out every time they need an excuse. democrats always default towards self-emulation. that's what they do. democrats torture themselves because it's part of being a democrat. but the question of franken and trump i think is important. these two things took place one year apart. one year before that uso event at which al franken, you know, admits now, and at least has attempted to repent of what he did in 2006, one year before that donald trump was saying that because i'm -- which

franken was i can forcefully kiss women and i can forcefully grope them. the identical behavior that he was on twitter attacking franken for. again, admitting and apologizing and repenting for, he was boasting one year earlier that he could do that because he was a star. >> we're going to have to leave it there for now. we'll have a lot more time in a moment. when we come back, i'll talk to white house budget director mick mulvaney about the republican tax plan and what do the democrats say about the senate's tax bill to make republican senator orrin hatch of utah respond like this. >> what you said was not right, that's all i'm saying. i come from the lower middle class originally. we didn't have anything. so don't spew that stuff on me. i get a little tired of that crap.

welcome back. house republicans passed their version of a tax plan this week and now the senate is debating its bill. democrats oppose the republican approach because they say it gives big tax breaks to corporations and the wealthy, while the effect on the middle class is unclear. republicans argue that the top down cuts will spur economic growth that will create more jobs and higher wages for the middle class. that debate was at the heart of a heated moment thursday between democrat sherrod brown and republican chair orrin hatch. >> i just think it would be nice just tonight before we go home to just acknowledge, well, this tax cut really is not for the middle class, it's for the rich.

>> i'm going to just say to you that i come from the poor people, and i've been here working my whole stinkin' career for people who don't have a chance. and i really resent anybody saying that i'm just doing this for the rich. give me a break. >> joining me now is the director of the office of management and budget, mick mulvaney. director mulvaney, welcome to "meet the press." so who is going to get the break, the middle class tax cuts, the individual tax cuts, they expire in a decade. the corporate tax cuts are permanent. >> a couple of different ways to answer that question. keep in mind one of the reasons, andrea, that a lot of this different pieces and parts expire during the course of the ten years is simply to force this bill into the strange rules in the senate. we're using what's called the byrd rule in the senate, we're using reconciliation so we only need 50 votes instead of 60. in order to do that, certain proposals can only have certain economic impact and one of the ways to game the system is to make things expire.

the bush tax cuts did the same thing, they supposedly would expire after nine years. what we tell folks is this. if it's good policy, it will become permanent. if it's bad policy, it will become temporary. that's just the way it is. so this is done more to force and shoe horn the bill into the rules because we think it's good policy. >> isn't that an admission that it's a gimmick? you're saying it's a $1.5 trillion tax cut, the impact on the deficit but in fact according to most analyses $2.2 trillion. >> not to most analyses. i think one analyses i've seen that number. >> the fact is that you're squeezing it into these rules, but you really do intend for it to be extended down the road, which will explode the deficit even farther. >> we'll come back to your first point about the $1.5 trillion. that's the cbo, the nonpartisan cbo score. congressional budget office score. but everybody knows it's 100% static. it doesn't consider the possible impacts on the economy of lowering taxes. it's sort of like saying if you sold this coffee mug last year and sold 100 of them for $5,

this year you lower them to $4, do you think you might sell more. that's dynamic scoring, which is what the cbo scoring and so many other outside groups that scored this have used. so we're absolutely confident that this will lead to economic growth. it's built into our models of the office of management and budget, the council of economic advisers looks at it as well. yeah, to the extent it's a gimmick, a lot of this is a gimmick. obamacare was a gimmick to get through these rules in the senate. what you should really be looking at is the policies themselves. we think these are excellent policies. >> take a look at what economists from both political parties have said in the past. we have economists such as douglas holtz-eakin said there's no evidence that the tax cuts pay for themselves. jared bernstein, a democratic economist working for joe biden said cutting taxes loses revenues. greg mancue for bush 43 said about one-third of the cost of the tax cuts is recouped by a faster economic growth. never in history have we had the kind of growth from tax cuts

that pay for themselves. >> we have a tremendous opportunity here. one thing that gets overlooked is the country is sort of operating at the new normal. in fact it was until president trump got elected. so for the last eight years we're averaging below 2% growth. you go back to that congressional budget office and that's what they think the new normal is. forever and ever and ever the country will only grow at 1.8% or 2% growth. since president trump got elected it's been 3%. we think we can sustain that. >> 3% for the first quarter, it's not 3% annual growth. >> it was 3% in the second quarter, 3% in the third quarter. we're looking now probably having 3% in the fourth quarter. that's even with the hurricanes in the middle. so we do think we're actually there. granted we have to have additional policy changes to make that sustainable and tax reform is part of that. but the amount of money that generates for the government over the ten years is $2.5 trillion. >> president trump said that he would get nothing from this tax cut. let's watch.

>> you wouldn't benefit under your tax plan? >> no, i don't benefit. i don't benefit. in fact very, very strongly, as you see, there's no -- there's no -- i think there's very little benefit for people of wealth. >> now, we only have one year of tax returns because he has failed -- refused, he's the first president in modern history to not release his tax returns. we have the 2005 1040 from president trump. our independent nbc news analysis of that showed that he would himself, he and melania trump would gain at least $22 million from this tax cut, from the estate tax as well, his heirs would benefit. $1.1 billion. so it's not true that the president would not benefit from the tax cut. >> i can't speak to the president's taxes. i think that was sort of litigated by the american public during the election. i will say this, the president is going to pay much higher taxes on a lot of his properties -- because he has properties in high tax states. so i laugh every time i come on networks like this and accuse us of cutting taxes on the rich. every time i go on different

networks you may understand who they are, they accuse us of raising taxes on the rich. so i think it sort of depends on how you look at it. >> we're not taking a political point of view here, we are actually going by nonpartisan groups like the committee for a responsible federal budget, all the impact on the exploding deficit, which will impact future generations. i do want to ask you, though, because the president has refused to talk about roy moore since he's back from his trip. and the white house is saying that he said on air force one he would talk about roy moore in alabama. you were a member of congress. this debate over sexual harassment has spread to politics as well as to every industry, starting with harvey weinstein. let's talk about roy moore and whether or not he should be the republican nominee and whether he should be seated if he's elected. >> i do think the president has talked about roy moore. i think he said that he thinks that the voters of alabama should decide. i think that's probably the most common sense way to look at it. he doesn't know who to believe. i think a lot of folks don't know -- >> nine women have come out, many of them since the president

came back from asia. he's said not a word. he's ducked every question. >> and the allegations are very serious and should be taken very seriously. but ultimately these are up to the voters in the state. you and i are in washington, d.c. to think we know what's going on in other parts of the country -- >> if the president has been silent, which he has been on roy moore, why did he jump all over al franken the minute that an acknowledged episode of this behavior before al franken came into politics. that in fact was something the president tweeted about immediately. >> one of the significant differences there is that franken admits it and roy moore denies it. so i do think that puts them in two different categories. >> do you believe the women who have come out against roy moore are credible? >> i believe they're credible. i don't know who to believe. again, i'm at the office of management and budget -- >> you don't believe them? >> no, i said i think they're credible, i don't know who to believe. i do think as the president said -- that the voters should decide. >> well, if they're credible, why wouldn't you believe them? >> andrea, i run the office of management and budget in washington, d.c. you work for nbc news in washington, d.c.

my guess is we have not spent that much time looking at the specifics of the allegations. you've arrived at a certain conclusion because of a certain political persuasion. >> not because of a political persuasion at all. i'm asking whether you think they are credible. they have been out in public, they have spoken on the record. some stories were brought out by alabama journalists in the local newspapers down there, not just by "the washington post." and i have no political ax to grind here other than to ask you whether you believe they are credible. >> i believe the folks who vote in the alabama election are going to ultimately decide that. that's the right folks to make those decisions. >> and when you were in congress, do you think that there was sexual abuse going on? were you aware of it? >> i never saw anything like it. i really didn't. maybe just the group of men and women i hung out about but never saw anything like it. i believe folks that say they think it's been there and seen evidence of it, i think there was hard evidence of it that was referenced on an anonymous basis, so i have no reason to disbelieve those allegations but i never saw it personally.

>> director mulvaney, thank you for being with us today. when we come back, why roy moore could be more vulnerable in alabama than you might think. stay with us. i can guide you in? no, thanks , santa, i got this. looks a little tight. perfect fit. santa needs an f-150. that's ford, america's best selling brand. hurry in today for 0% financing for 72 months across the full line of ford cars, trucks and suvs! and just announced... get 0 % apr for 72 months plus $1000 cash back! take advantage of these exclusive holiday offers during the ford year end sales event. just serve classy snacks and bew a gracious host,iday party. no matter who shows up.

do you like nuts?

and welcome back. it's data download time. could roy moore win the senate seat in alabama? despite allegations of sexual misconduct against him. it's true, alabama is a deep red state. donald trump won there last year 62% to clinton's 34%. but while many view alabama as

populist republican country ripe for a moore victory, the state may be home to more skeptical republican establishment voters than you think. in the 2012 general election with mitt romney running for president, roy moore was also on the ballot for supreme court chief justice there. those two republican candidates compare across the state, how did they? well, romney, the textbook definition of an establishment republican, won 61% of the vote for president in alabama while roy moore won 52% of the vote for chief justice. romney even won nine more counties than moore did. 52 counties for romney versus 43 counties for moore. plus romney even did better in moore's home county of etowah. 68% for romney compared to 55% for moore. of course this all happened long before those allegations of sexual misconduct about moore came out publicly. sure, there are big differences between running for alabama supreme court and the u.s. senate, but these 2012 numbers show that moore has been a divisive figure even among

alabama republicans for a long time. if that divide re-emerges next month, this could be how deep red alabama elects a democrat to the senate on december 12th. and when we come back, end game and what some trump voters now say they think about the president. man's inner voice: why do i have to be stuck here? talking property taxes. ♪ woah. go over there! then, make a mountain out of that reddi-wip. i'm out. made with real cream. reddi-wip. instant greatification.

back now with "end game." okay, taxes. a lot of confidence among the republicans that they're going to win this in the senate. amy walter, this -- you have to

believe in trickle-down economics, that all of a sudden all these tax cuts are going to boost the economy and really help the middle class after all. >> yeah, well, and i think for a lot of republicans, especially republican voters, what they think they have in a president trump is somebody who's a businessperson. i hear that over and over again from voters, even voters who aren't completely complimentary of the president saying, yeah, but at least he knows about business. that's why i trust him on the economy. the challenge is that they don't trust republicans right now. the approval ratings of republicans in congress quite low. and the approval ratings of the tax bill itself, at best, at best, is mixed and ambivalent. and republicans are spending more time right now worrying about getting the votes in the senate than they are convincing voters that this is the right thing for the country. that's going to be a bigger challenge. forget about what the vote is. if they succeed, are they going to be able to and are they willing to spend 2018 making a positive case, or will that vacuum get filled by democrats and others that are attacking it? >> and at the same time we've

got this sexual harassment on both sides, not equivalent, but roy moore front and center, robert costa. >> roy moore is front and center, and republicans are worried that he could lose that race or win that race, it's a problem for them. on taxes, though, i don't buy the confidence yet based on my reporting. you've got senator ron johnson of wisconsin -- >> they think they've got him. they think they have a fix for him on small businesses. >> but you talk about trickle-down economics, that still remains the core of the republican party that reagan orthodoxy, but this is a change party. look at the discussions in the senate. they're concerned about how this bill adds to the deficit, they're concerned as being too pro wall street heading into 2018. mcconnell still has some work to do. >> not only that, it has also become a proxy health care fight again, because you again have republicans talking about cutting medicare, cutting medicaid. this would trigger sequestration. you have republicans even in the administration admitting that they consider social security disability benefits to be welfare and saying we're going to reform that and cut that as well. so democrats will go back to the playbook of reminding americans

this is a rehash of trying to repeal obamacare, which as we know was incredibly unpopular, including with some very important republicans. >> given how the house majority the last several years has almost been ungovernable, it's a stupendous achievement that they passed this so quickly and relatively easily in the house. it is a good bill. if you put a gun to the head of democratic economists, they would admit reforming the corporate tax code is good for the economy. on the other side, it's not a typical republican tax cut. there aren't big cuts at the top rate. the senate change this week i think was very important, big increase in the child tax credit. that is a huge benefit to middle class families. >> a lot of this will depend on how people think about the president himself. so i want to share with all of you something that nbc news observed, a 12-person focus group this week in wilmington, north carolina, led by peter hart, the democratic partner in our nbc news/"wall street journal" poll organized for emory university. there were seven clinton voters and five trump voters. peter asked the voters how they

feel about the president one year after his election. watch. >> he comes at you and calls you names and these types of things. i mean, what are we, in the third grade again? >> to me it's like firing off these tweets, it's just childish a lot of times. >> when he's away, he's great being a president, you know. he's the showman. but at home he's kind of like two -- i can't imagine how they let him build a country club, let alone be in one, because we don't behave that way. >> it's very clear from these conversations that -- and many of these people say they would still support him, amy, but support him for re-election, but they are not happy about twitter. >> they are not happy about twitter, and he's not up for re-election in 2018. >> good point. >> his republican colleagues are. and they don't want to have to be able to defend this. a lot of these people may show up for donald trump. are they going to show up in a 2018 mid-term election if they're feeling frustrated about the fact that things aren't happening on the legislative front? >> how are we still talking about the clintons after kirsten

gillibrand came out with "the new york times" and said at this stage she, looking back, would not have supported bill clinton staying in office after impeachment in lewinsky. the long-time advisor to hillary clinton sent a warning shot across saying on twitter ken starr spent $70 million on a consensual blank for sunday morning television. senate voted to keep potus wjc, but not enough for you, senator gillibrand? over 20 years you took the clintons endorsements, money and seat? hypocrite. interesting strategy for 2020 primaries. best of luck. >> what republicans learned in 2016 is not only you no longer had to defend george w. bush, you could actually attack him, as trump proved. i think you'll see the same thing playing out with democrats in 2020. you can disagree with the clintons and even throw bill clinton under the bus for his appalling personal conduct. >> but does the president jumping all over al franken bring up his own past where

people will re-ask themselves, how about the credibility of those women, more than a dozen women accusing him. >> it's going to haunt republicans in the coming year because you have leader mcconnell and other senators saying, including mulvaney in your interview, they say the women are credible in the roy moore situation. does that mean the women are not credible when it comes to president trump? these are questions republicans are going to have to answer. >> and let's not forget that donald trump faces a lawsuit from one of the women who he called a liar, so this is going to be adjudicated in part, his credibility versus hers. and look, the bottom line is republicans have now decided to migrate to the position that we believe women, that we're going to believe women when they make accusations. well, donald trump has more than a dozen women who have accused him of behavior that he also bragged about in that "access hollywood" tape. they cannot escape the allegations against the president of the united states, and we should discuss it. by the way, we talked about clarence thomas earlier. he's still sitting right there on the supreme court. >> we are going to have to leave it there. thanks to all of you, and thanks for a great conversation today.

amy, rich, bob and joy. that's all for today. thank you for watching. everyone have a great, healthy, safe thanksgiving. chuck todd will be back next week because if it's sunday, it's "meet the press." >> you can see more end game and postgame sponsored by boeing on the "meet the press" facebook page. your brain is an amazing thing. but as you get older, it naturally begins to change, causing a lack of sharpness, or even trouble with recall. thankfully, the breakthrough in prevagen helps your brain and actually improves memory. the secret is an ingredient originally discovered...

in jellyfish. in clinical trials, prevagen has been shown to improve short-term memory. prevagen. the name to remember. i just drank tons of water a proall the time, it was never enough. my dentist suggested biotene. my mouth felt more lubricated. i use the biotene rinse and then i use the spray. biotene did make a difference. [heartbeat] when it comes to strong bones, are you on the right path? we have postmenopausal osteoporosis... ..and a high risk for fracture, so with our doctors... ...we chose prolia®... ...to help make our bones stronger. only prolia® helps strengthen bones... ...by stopping cells that damage them... ...with 1 shot every 6 months. do not take prolia® if you have low blood calcium, are pregnant, are allergic to it, or take xgeva®. serious allergic reactions, like low blood pressure; trouble breathing; throat tightness; face, lip or tongue swelling... ...rash, itching or hives have happened. tell your doctor about dental problems, as severe jaw bone...

...problems may happen or new or unusual pain in your hip groin, or thigh, as unusual thigh bone fractures have occurred. peak to your doctor before stopping prolia®, as spine and other bone fractures have occurred. prolia® can cause serious side effects, like low blood calcium; serious infections, which could need hospitalization; ...skin problems; and severe bone, joint, or muscle pain. if your bones aren't getting stronger... ...isn't it time for a new direction? why wait? ask your doctor about prolia®.

tonight -- men behaving badly. washington reacting predictably. will anything change permanently? this is "kasie dc." welcome to kasie dc. i'm kasie hunt. we're live with the latest reporting from washington every sunday from 7:00 to 9:00 eastern. tonight, what will the consequences be for sexual misconduct? will it cost a senate candidate his election and a sitting senator his seat? i talked with kirsten gillibrand