investigation into potential ties between donald trump and russia. "the new york times" out with brand-new reporting this afternoon that bob mueller is using his subpoena power to obtain documents related to russia and donald trump's businesses. from that piece, quote, the order is the first known time that the special counsel demanded documents directly related to president trump's businesses, bringing the investigation closer to the president. the president's businesses, of course, a red line for the president when it comes to the mueller investigation. at least according to the president. here he is in an interview several months ago with "the new york times" with that warning. >> if mueller was looking at your finances and your family finances, unrelated to russia, is that a red line? >> would that be a breach of what his actual charge is? >> i would say yeah.

i would say yes. by the way, i would say i don't -- i can't answer that question because i don't think it's going to happen. >> it might be happening. joining us now, mike the schmidt, one of the times reporters on today's breaking news, jeremy bash, msnbc analyst and former chief of staff at the cia and the pentagon. at the table with us rick sting l, former under secretary of state for public diplomacy now an msnbc analyst. jan palmieri former communications for the president obama white house. and john heilman is here, nbc news and msnbc national affairs analyst. mike schmidt, let me start with you and your brand-new story. let me read you a piece that caught our attention here. the subpoena is the latest indication that the investigation which mr. trump's lawyers once regularly assured him would be completed by now will drag on for at least several more months. tell us more. >> well, as we all remember at the end of last year, ty cobb,

the attorney dealing with the white house, thanksgiving, christmas, this is coming to an end. the trump organization has to deal with the subpoena. it's not something you can deal with very quickly. they have to go through all of their e-mails and documents to make sure that they are responding correctly to this. that is a process that takes some time. and then it all has to be given to mueller. mueller has to take a look at it and see what's there. and if there is a there there. that is not an easy process. this is something they tried to make it seem like was going to be over and now it looks like it will be at least around several more months and my guess longer. >> let's bring the trump businesses into focus. we've spent so much more time talking about trump's associates. but your reporting, this account and others in recent days, bring what might be of interest in his businesses into focus and i want to read something else from your piece. you report that the trump organization has said that it

never had real estate holdings in russia. but witnesses recently interviewed by mr. mueller have been asked about a possible real estate deal in moscow in 2015 a long-time business associate of mr. trump's e-mailed mr. trump's lawyer michael cohen at his trump organization account saying he had ties to vladimir putin of russia and said that building a trump tower in moscow would help mr. trump's presidential campaign. trump signed a nonbinding letter of intent for the project in 2015 and discussed it three times with cohen. does that lender, his statement and the tape we played at the top of the show that was an interview with you and your colleagues peter baker and maggie haberman, inoperative? it sounds like he had a condo. sounds like he was looking to have more than a condo. >> we haven't had a really good look into the president's relationship with russia. we know about this 2015 agreement. we know that the president had reupped some of his licensing deals he had in russia right around the time he got elected.

we know he wanted to build a tower there dating back to the '90tion. we know about his infamous trip there in 2013 for the miss america pageant. but we don't know a lot beyond that. it's sort of been a black area of the whole investigation, an obstruction. we know a lot about that. meetings between trump associates and russians, we know a lot about that. but we've known less about his money and questions about that. and we haven't known about many subpoenas related to it or related to the finances of his children or otherwise. so, that was what caught us about today's thing because every dream in trump orb is related to his finances. >> let me ask about one of the figures prominently in your piece. mr. cohen, about stormy daniels, at best writing a questionable nondisclosure agreement at worst. we won't talk about the worst case scenario there. he is a central figure in your

story as well. you, i believe, are the reporter who brought us the account that mueller has asked to meet with him. any information about when that will take place or whether has already begun? >> i don't think we had reported that, but cohen in the whole thing is this very interesting figure. he's someone that has been a fixer of sorts for the president for a long time, his lawyer, someone who early on in the campaign was out there actually publicly and kind of disappeared and went into the back as other people came forward in the campaign. he was sort of less of a public figure, but obviously from the stuff that we continued to learn, still very involved, you know. he had received these e-mails from felix saider. another associate discussing the trump tower deal. apparently cohen spoke to the president three times about the tower deal back in 2015. obviously cohen's role with the stormy daniels settlement or agreement that was made. his name continues to pop up in these very sort of interesting and tantalizing parts of the

story. >> let me ask you to tie this to your reporting from the weekend, also with your colleague maggie haberman, a long-time washington lawyer who represented former president bill clinton during impeachment, do you believe that this information, this news of a subpoena, which i don't believe is a tactic bob mueller has used too often in his investigation. do you believe that they were in receipt of this subpoena before they looked at a heavier weight lawyer like emmet flood? >> i don't think they're directly related. i think that the president realizes that he needs a new lawyer to come into the white house, perhaps a wartime to deal with issues that may come out of the mueller investigation, the ty cobb part of this, the lawyer that dealt with this at the white house since last summer. his part is largely over. that was document production. i don't think ty cobb has interest in going much further on the investigation from here.

emmet flood is someone who represented bill clinton during impeachment. but i don't believe it's related to the subpoena. i think the president realizes there are many large issues that relate to this beyond simply a request. although as you do point out, we don't know a lot about mueller's subpoenas. the only other one sort of tangentially related to the president was the one given to steve bannon earlier this year after "fire and fury" came out. mueller subpoenaing him to testify before a grand jury, ultimately dropping the subpoena and allowing bannon to come in for an interview. so, this is the first subpoena related to president's finances we know and one of the first of any other type. >> and i want to read a statement from the lawyer from the trump organization who says that since july 2017, we have advised the public that the trump organization is fully cooperative with all investigations including the special counsel and is responding to their requests. ns old news and our assistance and cooperation with the various investigations remains the same

today. sort of an interesting move to decide that they needed to put that out. obviously your account isn't old news at all. >> yeah, no, there had been no subpoenas reported about related to the trump organization. and obviously they're trying to sort of have it both ways where they're trying to show they will be cooperative. we have no indication they are fighting mueller on this, that they want to take this to court to try and stop it. they have to go through the process of producing them. so, we see no indication of that. and, look, this is not, you know, they don't want this story out there about trump organization and these questions coming up because it just shows that the longer that mueller goes around and hangs around, the more different things that he looks at. and if you remember on the audio you played earlier, the president said that if mueller looks at his finances beyond russia, that would be passing a red line. now, the president did not say at the time what it would mean

if he went beyond the red line, but this is obviously something the president is closely looking at and obviously a line that mueller is sort of walking towards. >> stay with us. let me bring jeremy bash into the conversation. jeremy, let me ask you to speak to sort of the collision of all of michael cohen's responsibilities inside the trump organization. he was, based on this brand-new report, reporting from "the new york times," he was the person that was the intermediary between the now president and whoever was on the other end of the moscow deal, at the center of all the questions about stormy daniels. and it's also been reported bob mueller would like to talk to him. speak to the significance of michael cohen as a figure in the investigation. >> not surprising at all that michael cohen would be a central figure of interest for bob mueller. not surprising that bob mueller and his team would issue a grand jury subpoena for records to the trump organization, which is a

significant investigative tool by a special counsel because, of course, what the business dealings were between the trump organization and the russian federation is part of the inquiry. it's helpful to understand how russia had leverage over donald trump, how russia had leverage over the trump organization. we know that the trump organization obtained loans from the russian federation during a time when russian oligarchs were looking to move money outside of russia and the trump organization was cash strapped. they actually didn't have the credit worthiness to borrow from some other bona fide american institutions. eric trump spoke to this on the record in some interviews he gave. we also know that as late as 2015, december, just weeks before the iowa caucuses, michael cohen was working closely with individuals in moscow to design plans and sign the deal for a trump tower in moscow. so, this wasn't something far in the past. this was actually when donald trump was running for president. >> i have that what you just referenced. let me read that to you.

this is from cohen's letter begging for trump tower moscow in early 2016. he writes, over the past few months i have been working with a company based in russia regarding the development of a trump tower moscow project in moist moscow city. the conversation has stalled. i am here by requesting your assistance. i roo he expectfully request preferably you contact me regarding the specifics to arrange the meetings with the appropriate individuals. match that against donald trump tweeting in july 2016, for the record, i have zero investments in russia. it wasn't because he didn't want any. >> he clearly sought them. and also this president is not known for his linguistic precision. if you go back to that interview he gave with michael, maggie and peter from last year, he spoke in the present tense. i don't make money from russia and i don't have any dealings with russia. that clearly, although he doesn't normally speak with precision, that was mysteriously precise. he clearly knew he had taken loans from russia and that he

had sought a megadeal from russia. that was an avenue russia had as leverage over presidential candidate donald trump. >> i'm peering over my glasses because i want to read this to heilman. yesterday jeremy was here and swalwell was here. he was briefing us on the minority report after the republicans came out, nothing to see, the house democrats released a 21-page report. i am told coincidentally by members of the democrats on the house intel committee, they were onto some of the same things it would appear from mike smith's reporting that bo bob mueller is looking for. the committee has learned cann dat trump's private business was negotiating a business in moscow with a sanctioned russian bank during the election period. it seems like both tracks were running in parallel. mueller is still ongoing, the house democrats derailed. >> from both sides, the

correctional side, this is true of the senate intel committee, by the way. the initial investigations that we had, an obstruction of justice investigation, a collusion investigation. collusion always an imprecise term. as we have proceeded and people have started to look not that there have been huge revelations although th although there have been some, people have started to parse, donald trump's language, this is clear he was using precise language. people also start today look back at the history of the long history of donald trump trying to crack the russian market. this is not a secret to anybody who has moved around the trump organization for a long time he has wanted to be in russia for a long time. you now have i think anybody who is involved in this investigation starting to look at not collusion, but collusion as part of a bigger picture, which is a story about international corruption, international conspiracy, complex financial crimes. this is where the mueller investigation is inevitably headed and is there and is going

to get deeper today. mike schmidt is right, this investigation is narrowing on obstruction of justice, but related questions on international corruption. we are going to get deeper and deeper into that stuff over the months ahead. >> jan palmieri, let me ask you, you bring up the dossier and instantly the 33% trump base goes ding, ding, ding, salacious and discredited. as ken dilanian says, leave the sex and follow the money. this is the essence created during the campaign all about financial entanglement between trump and russia. it is proving out. >> it's not just him. it wasn't just about what happened in russia. it was other properties in other parts of the world they were investing in as well. so, i thought, you know, when i saw the story today ids two big take aways. one is this is -- you remember

the scene from the godfather. we so often have to go back to the godfather with this administration for points of reference. but when they got rid of the five heads of the other crime families in one swoop, and i feel like the purging that you've seen of staff over the last few days and week is about mueller and is about anxiety about having people like rex tillerson around who might be seen as wanting to have a responsible reaction if mueller comes out and says, wow, there is deep -- that there is collusion on the money side that trump is compromised because of money and people like him being uneasy about that and wanting to have a wartime cabinet that will defend him no matter what. hope hicks leaving, the body person that left a couple days ago. i feel like that these, when you see a lot of movement in the white house, remember they know what's happening with mueller more than we do.

they have heads up and they have to cooperate with them. so they knew this was coming. i think that's what they've been preparing for. >> and another thing we know just from the interviews that folks -- sam nunberg did interviews before and after his mueller investigation with allison rosa ari mel berg. he asked did he ask questions related to payment to women. we know that is one of the lines of questioning, whether it's related to women, whether it's related to businesses. we know because at least one person has come out and said that was presiegscisely what th were asked about. >> the irony is we are going to find out donald trump decided to run for president so he could build a hotel in moscow. >> you think that's it? >> well, obviously the hotel in moscow was a kind of white wahae for him. mueller will find out was he operating in order to get this business deal and i think as john said, i mean -- and as you said, jan, there is an international crime family

aspect to this, the real estate business itself is not the cleanest business. everybody in russia is a corrupt oligarch who trump was dealing with and then did this become a way of them having leverage over him even now. >> i don't think that's a joke. donald trump said to us in the summer of 2015 he thought he had a 30% chance of being president. he thought when he got into the race that he was not going to win the republican nomination and let alone he was ever going to be president. eventually he wanted to be president, i believe. >> he wanted to win. >> when he first decided to run, i think he thought it would be good for business. he would elevate his profile. he would have this greater stature. he wanted to expand his business internationally to russia and other places. he had a son-in-law that wanted to get money from foreign sources to try to fix some of the problems he had with large buildings in new york city like 555 fifth avenue. the whole family had a basic attitude through much of the

race which was likely dad, dad-in-law, my husband, likely we're not going to win the presidency, but this is going to be great for our business on the other side. and all of these complex financial entanglements, if you think you're not going to win the presidency, it's not complicated. all you're trying to do is get a global profile so you can make more money all over the world. >> mike, one thing i wondered when i read your story, who was in receipt of this subpoena? are don junior and eric trump, to the extent their wives are involved in the company, we talked about michael cohen. who is sitting over there being responsive to this subpoena and everything that it encompasses? >> well, they're a company and they have lawyers internally and externally that would deal with these types of things. and the interesting thing obviously about the trump organization is the role that eric and don junior play in it. they're very involved in it. eric dealing with the golf courses, don junior dealing with other parts of it. but it's a real mom and pop

business, that the family is very involved in different parts of it. it's our sense that if you look at it, you got under the hood of it, you would see that they are touching all -- from the top, they're touching all different parts of it, involved in different things. my guess is this is something when the president learned about this that he didn't like because it gets closer and closer to him and his family. >> jeremy bash, what mike just described is what i heard from a trump ally today. the reason this story is likely to light his hair on fire -- and i imagine his hair is highly flammable -- is because of the exposure -- not for michael cohen, because i understand him to be pretty miffed with cohen and to place all of the responsibility for the stormy daniels debacle squarely at cohen's feet, which is interesting because we've not heard that cohen was in a hotel room and at a golf tournament with a porn star. but that's for another segment. but that the fear here, i've heard from two sources he's worried about his baby girl, his

daughter ivanka and her exposure because of jared's legal travails. and i heard today that the reaction to this story from the president is likely to be i don't want to use the word grave, but -- >> flammable? >> mounting concerns for his son. >> look, and i think john heilman sort of referenced -- what is the connection here between the issue of collusion and the issue of subpoena into trump's finances? and really it goes back to aras ag lar avenue who was the billionaire russian who met trump in las vegas. that is the individual michael cohen was negotiating with to build the trump tower in late 2015 and early 2016. the reason why it is relative, the question bob mueller is going to be asking is because he's also the person who sent the russian government delegation to trump tower in june 2016. if you'll recall, it was his publicist rob goldstone who sent the e-mail to don junior saying, we've got dirt on hillary clinton. this is part of the russian government support for your

dad's campaign. can we come talk to you? so, there is a direct connection between the business interest that donald trump and the trump organization were working in moscow and whether or not there was a conspiracy between them and u.s. persons to violate federal election law put forward dirt on hillary clinton and help donald trump. >> and we know that because -- i'm give you one second. we know that because don trump responds in an e-mail that was obtained by "the new york times," i think first, was, i love it. heilman, what did you want be to say? >> well, the other thing is there is the question of donald trump wanting to do business in russia. what there is a whole history of is donald trump doing business in other places with russians. so, it's not just confined to the question of the actual investments, do i own property in moscow. it's the fact that he was in business with a lot of really shady russians in ecuador, in the caribbean and all over the place. this is where the story gets complicated and more and more and more and more to look at.

russia is in the middle of it even if it's not in the four corners of the russian state. >> i'll go from 35,000 feet down to 3500 feet. he's a prosecutor. he's going to look for evidence. he's going to look for lying to the grand jury. by putting these subpoenas in, he is cranking it up on everybody in that trump organization. and one of the things we've seen just in the last few days with the stormy daniels thing is there was no chinese wall between anything. the trump organization was everything. the lawyer that wrote the letter, there was nothing outside of it. so, when he's probing into this, he's probing into the dark heart of the trump scandal. >> the dark heart, i love that. michael schmidt, thank you for your reporting. we're grateful to have it. we're grateful to have you. when we come back, a growing outcry of the increasingly belligerent russia. the trump administration finally issues sanctions but is it too little too late? and the deputy director of the fbi a frequent target of the president's mean tweets and a key witness to potential obstruction of justice by the

president is fighting for his job this hour. we'll bring you the latest. and that breaking news out of miami, we'll have a live report. stay with us. you know what's awesome? gig-speed internet.

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sure. still yes! xfinity delivers gig speed to more homes than anyone. now you can get it, too. welcome to the party. almost one month to the day bob mueller indicted 13 russians, the trump administration imposed sanctions on them and others for retaliation in the 2016 elections. while it was president a mr. gorbachev tear down this wall, it looks like russia is

behind the deadly attacks in the u.k. >> who was behind this, mr. president? >> it looks like it. i spoke with the prime minister and we are in deep discussions, a very sad situation. it certainly looks like the russians were behind it. something that should never, ever happen, and we're taking it very seriously as i think are many others. >> peter baker with "the new york times," the writing, quote, in keeping with his reluctance to blame moscow for meddling in the 2016 presidential campaign, mr. trump did not mention the sanctions or election interference. the president has repeated lid dismissed the suggestion that russia sought to influence the vote in his favor as a hoax and fake news. even as the special counsel robert mueller has concluded it did and investigates whether mr. trump's campaign collaborated with russian agents. mr. trump said once that he accepted vladimir putin's denial of any involvement. peter baker is here now along with jeremy and the rest of the panel. peter, let me start with your

piece. your analysis, obviously the sanctions a big move especially for this administration. the bar was pretty low that they simply do something. but as you point out, no word of the sanctions, no word of what they were for, retaliation for meddling. and really nothing particularly strong or harsh to say -- about vladimir putin, nothing coming close to what rex tillerson or nikki haley said. >> yeah, it's very interesting. we have a real die kochotomy ins administration. sometimes people below the president speak quite tough about russia and take action against russia. sarah huckabee sanders from the podium today talked harshly of russia. nikki haley at the u.n. tough language. the president himself wants to keep a distance from it. he'll allow his administration to slap sanctions. he'll allow nikki haley to demand answers at the u.n., but he doesn't want to personally alienate vladimir putin or seem to accuse him in a public

fashion. we've never gotten a really good explanation for why that is. perhaps he thinks it's because diplomatically it's smarter for him to keep a relationship with vladimir putin. perhaps there are other reasons, but it has of course raised suspicions about why it is he has been so reluctant for all this time. >> well, your story is on the web page next to maggie haberman and mike schmidt's story. mike schmidt got out of that chair. it offers a viable explanation one of the reasons might be bob mueller is now looking into the trump organization's ties to moscow. >> well, that's exactly right obviously. what we don't know we don't know. so, what those ties might be or what might be hidden is still obviously to come. but even if you accept his contention, the president's contention there was no collusion, you could understand he doesn't want to discuss russian meddling because he sees it as dee legitimatizing his election. from his point of view every time somebody talks about russian meddling is you're not a legitimate president. you didn't win fairly. he's saying i did win. it's because hillary clinton was

a bad candidate, i was a better candidate and so on. even if there was no nefarious machineations behind the scenes, he is very prickly about it and takes it as an assault on him. there is the question we don't know which robert mueller is finding out about ties between president trump, his family, campaign and russia. >> peter baker, i know you have to go. thank you so much for the piece and spending time with us. we are grateful. jeremy bash, let me ask you to pick up where peter baker left off and speak to these sanctions. it's something, but as i said at the top, the bar was so low, it feels like there is a danger in celebrating the fact we sanctioned people bob mueller already indicted for crimes. >> yeah, usually it's actually the reverse. usually there will be financial sanctions on individuals who there is an intelligence case to bring against them and then only if the prosecutor can prove cases beyond a reasonable doubt will you see actually criminal indictment. here the criminal indictment had

to come first. there was a clear beyond reasonable doubt case against these individuals. frankly sanctions were a no-brainer. >> rick, do you agree? >> well, i have to say i think we have to give praise where praise is due. the sanctions are strong. the statement by steve mnuchin about cyber kind of manipulation of the u.s. election, cyber manipulation of the energy grid, which is one of the first times this has been mentioned. i mean, these are substantial sanctions and these are done by career people in the -- >> sanction are unilateral. they don't need to go to congress. why did it take -- bob mueller to go to court and prosecute beyond a reasonable doubt? >> i would never disagree with jeremy bash. they're never going to have to go to trial. what's going hurt them are sanctions. sanctions that wound putin is

his inner circle and oligarchs, the guy who runs the internet agency, close to putin, he was sanctioned. so, these are -- these are just the beginning. these are a continuation of the sanctions the treasury did in '14, '15, '16 which i was a little involved in. it's the same career people who are doing this. they do it with incredible precision. >> all right. we are going to make a turn for our program. we're going to turn to the tragic scene in miami. a couple hours ago a pedestrian bridge at florida international university collapsed. there have been reports of multiple casualties. miami dade is holding a press conference. we are going to dip into that and listen. >> good afternoon. my name is juan perez. the miami dade police department, first and foremost, all of our thoughts and prayers go to those, the victims of this tragedy that has occurred here today. you've heard from our partners

here, many other partners that are out here, law enforcement and firefighters have come to the aid. we thank them for their efforts. fiu is here. the police department has been great. our partners from sweetwater and doral. we thank the agencies out here supporting the efforts. right now we are assisting in the efforts right now, the main focus here of the fire department is to rescue people. that is what we are assisting with by controlling traffic, assisting fhp with traffic. we are on stand by because as soon as those efforts are over, our homicide bureau will take the lead in investigating this tragedy that has occurred and we will take the lead from that point on. the state attorney is also on stand by and waiting to come in and work this case with us. so, for right now that's all we have. as far as this incident. and a very important message that i also have is that we have established with the partnership through fiu a reunification

center here at fiu. if you want more information on that, you can contact 305-348-3481. that is the number that has been established for family members that are concerned that maybe there are family members or friends victimized by this incident. if you call that number we will help you out. if you are one ever those family members or you're concerned, contact that number. there is an area here to respond for the family members only. fiu police are on stand by to escort everybody that comes in that wants to get to the family reunification center where our victim advocates are at so that they can assist with whatever needs are required of those individuals. the last thing i would like to share is that what you heard from fhp about people not coming into the area, please stay out of the area and we will advise you when these roads will be open again for an extended period of time. i also need you the media to

please cooperate with us. there should be no information that's coming out regarding this incident unless it's coming out from us right here in this location. we will periodically update you. we do not need information that is erroneous getting out to the public because some is already getting out. and what that does is it complicates things. we want to be able to be the ones that contact next of kin. we want to be able to notify family members. let us do that. we don't want family members to find out that a loved one is involved in this tragic incident because somebody puts it out in the media. so, please, i ask you to respect those family members, those that have been impacted. from the bottom of my heart, please cooperate with us today more than ever so that others that are impacted are not impacted by watching it on the news. we definitely do not want that. we want it to be controlled. let us do that. we have victim advocates that are waiting to go with us so we can deliver the news, whether it's horrible news or whether it's news that somebody has survived this incident. we would like to do that.

if you can cooperate with that, you know, that would truly, truly appreciate it. thank you. we're going to go spanish, all right? and one thing, please don't ask numbers. nobody here is going to give you numbers, okay? the phone number we'll give. what we're going to do is post on social media. we will give it to you, our pio is going to give it to you. it's 305-348-3481. i'll repeat it later in spanish and we'll give it to you, the social media as well. >> okay. while they keep going there, we're going to check in with nbc's correspondent on the scene, gabe gutierrez. gabe, what do you know beyond what we just learned from police department on the scene? >> reporter: hi there, nicolle. good afternoon. we're here just next to southwest 8th street. if you can see in the distance, that is where that bridge is collapsed. people have been gathering here where the road has been closed. we've been speaking to witnesses that just describe a scene of

utter horror here. they say they had been there just minutes before the bridge collapsed. some had driven just underneath it. some are walking passed it. people riddle gathering here to see how -- the extent of all this damage. as you have been reporting, as we've been hearing all afternoon, this was a bridge that had just been installed several days ago, so many questions from some of the people here on the scene whether it may have been rushed for some reason or perhaps whether all the safety checks had been in place. now, what we can tell you is that it is a police presence that is still underway right now. this all happened just before 2:00 p.m. this afternoon. the witnesses that we've been speaking with on the ground said that it sounded like an explosion almost. they just say it was a loud sound and it quickly came down on a row of stopped vehicles because the traffic light was red. now, nicolle, this is southwest 8th street, a huge artery here right next to florida international university's campus here in southwest miami dade. and this was a very -- expected

to be a busy afternoon. although fiu is on spring break, the miami dade youth fair opens at 3:00 p.m. there is certainly a lot of heavy traffic here. and now people here are questioning, you know, what caused this bridge to collapse, a pedestrian bridge, 950 tons. as we heard earlier on msnbc, senator bill nelson saying they are still working on the death toll here, but possibly at least six fatalities here. authorities now working to see if they can pull any more people from the rubble. several cars pinned, though, underneath all that concrete that collapsed. nicolle, back to you. >> horrific tragedy. gabe gutierrez, we're grateful to have you there. please jump back on our air if you learn anything else before 5:00. we're going to sneak in a break. we'll be right back. who were sure of it.

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the markets change... at t. rowe price... our disciplined approach remains. global markets may be uncertain... but you can feel confident in our investment experience around the world. call us or your advisor... t. rowe price. invest with confidence. putin is a nicer person than i am. i will tell you that i think in terms of leadership, he's getting an a.

i said he was a strong leader which he is. he might be bad, he might be good, but he's a strong leader. i believe that he feels he and russia did not meddle in the election. he's running his country. at least he's a leader unlike what we have in this country. >> but again, he killed journalists that don't agree with him. >> well, i think our country does plenty of kill also, joe. >> so much loving of vladimir putin. what do you think about the sanctions? >> the sanctions tell me they're pretty freaked out -- at the white house about what mueller did. the career staff who probably tried to get these things done for over a year finally won out because they wanted to show they're willing to do something against russia. i think two things about that. one, when they start acting conventionally, when this white house starts acting conventionally and bowing to public pressure that's when you know that they're nervous and that's when you know -- they get

into real trouble. that's when sessions recused himself. and the other thing is as imprecise as trump is, he's always very careful when he talks about russia. i don't think it's an accident that when he talked about it today in the oval office, he purposely did not bring up -- purposely did not tie the sanctions to the campaign and did not criticize putin directly. >> do you agree with that? >> i do. >> do you want to turn to the other story in the news? >> i do. >> so, today andrew mccabe, deputy fbi director fighting for his job just a little bit back ground, we talked about it on this program, he is face to face right now with some of the most senior officials at the department of justice, set to retire this sunday, mccabe is making one final plea to not get fired before sunday. what's at stake is mccabe's federal pension. something he earned over a two-decade fbi career. the fbi office in charge of discipline recently recommended he be terminated over an issue

where he wasn't fully forthcoming with the i.g. about a story that he, i guess, green lit the public affairs office to help shape the coverage of a story that turned out to be very unfavorable for hillary clinton. he allowed the fbi or d.o.j. public affairs officers to shape a story that included some of the fbi agent's concerns about hillary clinton's conduct. so, he helped make a story worse for hillary clinton. and he's also someone we understand to be a central witness in the mueller investigation, a corroborating witness of comey's story of obstruction of justice. and today sarah huckabee sanders called him a bad act or. >> a bad actor. by most accounts a bad actor. >> do we have that? let's watch. >> that's a determination that we would leave up to attorney general sessions, but we do think that it is well documented that he has had some very troubling behavior and by most accounts a bad actor and should have some calls for concern.

that would be a determination that d.o.j. would have to make. >> his behavior was making a "wall street journal" about hillary clinton worse. >> sarah sanders says some outrageous things and says some lies and does some things that are really objectionable. this is about as objectionable as anything i heard her say. andy mccabe was basically a lifer at the fbi. he was on the s.w.a.t. team. put his life on the line for the country over and over again. he prosecuted the boston bombers. he prosecuted the terrorists in the benghazi incident. this guy by most, if you took the measure of the full career, is someone in any other universe any time in our history would be called a hero and we're calling him now by most accounts a bad actor. the president in a totally punitive way is suggesting that, against someone who is likely to be a witness against him in a criminal case, is about to in a totally punitive way putting pressure on having this person, costing this person hundreds of thousands of dollars.

and in the middle of it he seems to be suggesting that if jeff sessions doesn't go forward with taking away, stripping the pension from andy mccabe, that will be a pretext by which trump may decide he can fire jeff sessions to install an attorney general who can fire bob mueller. this is just so dirty and so grotesque. again, we have dirty grotesque things all the time. this is a horror show. >> i think what sarah huckabee sanders did today was to use that podium, to allow the podium to be weaponized for one of donald trump's legal and political enemies. and no one -- an i.g., you have to assume the inspector general carried out a report this finding as we've discussed, no one is suggesting it's not, that andy mccabe permitted public affairs staff to shape a story that ended up being a bad one for hillary clinton. it wasn't completely forthcoming about it. but the fix was in 90 days ago.

donald trump tweeted 90 days ago, something like tick-tock, andy mccabe whose wife ran as a democrat, 90 days to go. donald trump and sarah huckabee sanders, they're going to hide today whatever the outcome, behind career officials at the fbi. >> i fail to see what andy mccabe did to be wrong. i mean, he worked with the media affairs department at the fbi to shape a story that, as you point out, actually backed the fbi's investigation of hillary clinton. in no way did it help hillary clinton in the campaign. you could argue it hurt her, she did the appropriate thing working through the media affairs office. i don't understand the underlying quote-unquote offense and i take offense to the way sarah huckabee sanders has attacked him. he's an individual, as john and others pointed out, has served our country with distinction. he devoted a career to public

service. he has more patriotism in his pinky toe than most people in our country have and certainly people working in the white house have. he is in some ways a model public servant and i don't think he deserves this on his way out. >> that is the assessment of democrats and republicans who have come in contact with andy mccabe over his 21 year career. you have never heard anything other than what you just said, jeremy bash. so i guess i'm confounded by the weakness and what john described, the horror of this sort of rudderless -- what is this white house? it is not a white house. it is not the people's house. it is donald trump's axe grinding factory. go ahead. >> vindictiveness, it goes back -- the closest antecedent for that is the nixon administration, he had a gang of enemies he was trying to punish. that's what he's doing. by the way, president trump is the person who talks about liable law all the time. what she said was defamatory

toward him today. >> well, you just tied my brain in a knot. let me get back to andy mccabe's role in the mueller probe. i understand jeff sessions to be on a trip. if andy mccabe is fighting for his job it's not with jeff sessions. is there any appropriate role for jeff sessions in making a determination about one of the key witnesses in the mueller investigation? >> no, i can't see anyway that jeff sessions can impartially put his finger on the scale of the fate of andy mccabe. he probably has to keep himself completely out of this. but it is important to point out and remind people that bob mueller will -- probably has talked to and will probably need to talk to andy mccabe again because he is a central witness in what the president said to jim comey about shutting down the investigation into mike flynn. >> i may need to hear that bad actor sound one more time.

can you imagine, i can't imagine anyone other than associated with al qaeda, i can't imagine george w. bush tolerating or john mccain -- let's list tone it one more time. i've got to hear let's listen to it one more time. >> that is a determination that we would leave up to attorney general sessions. but we do think that it is well documented that he has had some very troubling behavior and by most accounts a bad actor and should have some calls for concern. but that would be a determination that doj would have to make. >> and they said very much in line. what an ignorant thing to say. mccabe served honorable fighting organized crime and combatting terrorism and investigating the boston marathon and securing the threat of the territories who conspired on the benghazi and so many agree that he served more than honorably. >> it is so appalling that the president of the united states would play such small balls to

threaten someone's livelihood. and they went through that and a federal employee and relying on their pension and to threaten to take that aaway and -- away and be part of the investigation against him. >> did flynn get to keep his pension? >> i don't know. but i want to go back to your first point -- >> i'm curious. >> if mike flynn gets to keep his pension -- >> we should check. >> he's not confessed -- if he is a felon, he doesn't get to keep his pension. >> really? >> we're not going to debate pension law in the last nine minutes of the world. >> looking for consistency. >> i want to know if you think that donald trump has any understanding of the connection -- even -- and i agree with jeremy's assessment but i'm not sure i understand the underlying transgression on mccabe's part but it was as i understood it speaking to fbi

agents telling a full story of what they think hillary clinton did wrong. does donald trump realize that when you lose -- with mccabe, you lose and the guy had the backs of fbi agents for 21 years, not a good thing. >> i don't think he could possibly could care. i don't think he cares. >> it is a lot of dots. >> but the president has been at war on the fbi. he's at war on -- and his justice department and the intelligence committee. the president has exhibited nothing but consistent hostility all of the agencies whose job is to support the rule of law and to combat foes domestic and foreign and that is all he has expressed for a year and a half, he den grates all of their service on a routine basis. he doesn't think mccabe or any of the people except that they serve his interest matter. >> and to get high falluting about it and it is a respect for our institutions. our institutions separate us

from everybody else in the world and the fact that trump has no understanding of these institutions and people spent their lives working for the good of the american public, that is something that benefits all of us. and the fact that he's taking that down and made washington into a swamp -- he's the swamp master. but all of these people like andrew and millions of others are doing the most -- the best work for the american people every day, all day long for decades. >> and you know what is happening while he's attacking them from the white house podium, the people he hired are getting escorted out by security and so fast they can't even get their coats. an admission from donald trump that he doesn't always tell the truth.

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it may or may not be something he often does, but rarely do we ever hear donald trump admit it. quote, i made it up. a new audio recording leaked overnight obtained by nbc news and verified is giving us a look behind the curtain at how the president speaks to donors at fundraisers and how he interacts with other world leaders. here is a account that he had with justin trudeau. >> nice guy, good looking guy comes in, donald, we have to trade deficit. because everybody else we are getting killed and i said, no, justin, i didn't even know. i had no idea.

[ inaudible ]. well, sir, you're actually right. we have no deficit. but that doesn't include energy and timber. [ inaudible ] so what do you do with the $17 billion a year. it's incredible. >> >> it's incredible they laugh like lambs to the slaughter. what is happening. >> well even richard nixon, second mention, didn't boast about lying in public the way donald trump did. it is just kind of in credible. he does everything in public. he on strugts justice in public but in a serious way it tells every world leader, don't believe what i'm saying to you. >> you don't think they knew that already. >> the president's world is gold. >> but jeremy bash, doesn't it also tell the intelligence community and the national security apparatus and people like jim mattis -- there are lives on the line for people

trusting mattis's word and then he's bragging about lying to justin trudeau. there is a funny part, like how the hell did we get here and then a -- the seriousness that is the travesty of the american presidency. >> no doubt. and the canadians have served alongside of us in battle so to lie to a ally is shameful and unpatriotic. >> i agree. if you go around the world and talk to everyone who is involved in politics and in government and the diplomatic world, i'm sort of -- i don't mean to be not to be glib about this when i made the comment to rick, but i don't think -- and it doesn't excuse it, of course it is disgraceful, you shouldn't lie to an ally, the president is a fool to not to understand after mitt romney and the 47% tape that someone might be taping you, all tv speaks to idiocy and low character but i think a r--a

lot of heads of state don't think his word is gold. >> i'm not making excuses. >> but they have to react publicly and protect themselves from their own public and they to say the president of the united states lies. >> thanks to you. that is it for our hour. i'm nicolle wallace, "mtp daily" starts right now. >> nicolle, and bill hurt and talking about crossing the line but they keep moving the sucker. i feel like that is where we are with president trump. we don't know where the credibility line is but we have to move it. >> i know. it is a crazy time. >> sure is. >> i feel like we're going to switch to cocktails soon up here. >> happy hour starts at 4:00. >> it does now. >> thank you. good evening and i'm chuck todd here in washington. we're following the breaking news in several fronts today, including the multiple developments surrounding the russian meddling and the special counsel investigation and the white house response and