what a show. if we were any later we'd be late. i'll see you back tomorrow at 6:00 p.m. "hardball" starts now. mr. big stuff. let's play hardball. good evening. i'm chris matthews back in washington. mr. president, reality tv what got you to the white house, sir, is suddenly your enemy. for two weeks now the democrats on the intelligence committee have brought to the national stage credible witnesses against you. one after the other telling the story of a trump driven effort to sell-off u.s. national security to get personal gain

for you, donald j. trump. the case for impeachment has never been stronger. the evidence never so riveting as these past couple of days. after yesterday's explosive testimony from ambassador gordon sondland, we heard today from fiona hill, a former top official and in the national security council. and david holmes, a political counselor in ukraine. with a clear command of the facts dr. hill described how u.s. national security was subverted by the president's personal agenda. she said she came to realize that ambassador sondland had been empowered by the president personally to pursue a domestic political errand which was in conflict with her duty to avoid politicizing foreign policy. >> i was upset with him that he wasn't fully telling us about all the meetings that he was having. and he said to me but i'm briefing the president, i'm briefing chief of staff mulvaney, i'm briefing secretary pompeo, and i've talked to ambassador bolton.

who else do i have to deal with? he was being involved in a domestic political errand, and we were being involved in national security foreign policy, and those two things had just diverged. so he was correct. and i had not put my finger on it at the moment, but i was irritated with him and angry with him he wasn't fully coordinating. and i did say to him ambassador sondland gordon, i think this is all going to blow up, and here we are. because he was carrying out what he thought he'd been instructed to carry out. >> and there's dr. hill describing that moment of epiphany, that sondland was working for the chief, donald trump. he was the head of the whole escapade. david holmes testified about that july 26th phone call where he overheard the president pushing ambassador sondland to get ukraine to deliver the dirt on joe biden. he said by late august, it was his clear impression that security assistance was indeed

linked to trump's demand for those investigations by ukraine. >> my clear impression was that the security assistance hold was likely intended by the president either as an expression of dissatisfaction with ukrainians who had not yet agreed to the burisma biden investigation or an effort to increase the pressure on them to do so. >> this to you was the only logical conclusion you could reach? >> correct. >> sort of like 2 plus 2 equals 4? >> exactly. >> this comes directly after sondland's testimony that directly implicated the president and numerous officials in the scheme to leverage ukraine. >> mr. giuliani's requests were a quid pro quo for arranging a white house visit for president zelensky. mr. giuliani demanded that ukraine make a public statement announcing the investigations of

the 2016 election dnc server and burisma. it became more and more difficult to secure the white house meeting because more conditions were being placed on the white house meeting. mr. giuliani conveyed the notion that president trump wanted these announcements to happen. i believe that the resumption of u.s. aid would likely not occur until ukraine took some kind of action on the public statement that we had been discussing. >> it was made abundantly clear if they hadn't put two and two together themselves, if they wanted that aid they were going to make these statements, correct? >> correct. >> and that is what dr. fiona hill described today. and now the managing director for security at the center for american progress.

and mimi rocah. mimi, i guess starting with you tonight. i've been watching it. i'm not a lawyer. i've only watched courtroom dramas, they're some of the best movies i know. how would you describe the way these witnesses have been brought forth on the national stage one at a time sometimes two at a time in terms of building -- putting together the building blocks, i should say of the case for the president's malfeasance and impeachable behavior? >> i mean, this has been a phenomenal case, chris. really. i think if this were something we were asking a jury to decide guilty or not, which we're not doing yet obviously, they would come back in a heartbeat with a guilty verdict. because if you look at all of the evidence, all of the testimony of the witnesses and the phone call with the president himself in his own words saying i need a favor, though, if you put all of it together and you take politics out of it and look at it as a

rational person, which is something prosecutors ask jurors all the time. they say you don't chuck your -- you know, your rational thought at the door when you come in here. all of that really leaves this inescapable conclusion that trump was holding up first the meeting and then the aid for this announcement of an investigation. and he delegated it to rudy giuliani, his, you know, under-boss in all of this to get the dirty work done so he could have some plausible deniability. but i think that just makes it more obvious when he goes around saying no quid pro quo, no quid pro quo. it's like saying i didn't rob the bank as he's taking the money out of the bank. you know, it doesn't make it true. and the facts and evidence here really are overwhelming if people are willing to look at it in a rational objective way. >> eli, the way i like it is there's revelations as they come to each person what's going on.

first of all, ambassador taylor realizing there's two channels. there's the legitimate or official channel and then this rudy giuliani effort to try to ring the dirt out of this country to help the president in his next election. and sondland coming saying basically it's not just the other channel but the channel that includes the president, the chief of staff and the president. and includes the secretary of state and the entire state department. the whole second channel is really the government. and then to find out most recently, the testimony more recently today from dr. hill where she realizes that it's the precedent behind the whole thing. >> right. i mean, and that was the cap stone for the democrats. over two weeks they put her last and she really tied it all together. it's remarkable to hear from all these officials. their epiphanies came at different times but came eventually. sometimes it came after their first sworn deposition, and they had to give a second one because other peoples testimony helped

them recover certain memories. maybe they were trying to protect themselves or protect the president. hill today said it's just not credible that sondland and others could have not put it together that when the president and others around him were saying burisma they meant an investigation of joe biden. but ultimately you have two weeks of testimony, 12 witnesses, and everything points in the same direction. and yet if you watch that hearing and listen to adam schiff at the end of it, the frustration he was expressing, it's understandable because he had heard the republicans on that committee ignore the testimony for the most part, not question the substance of it and just act as if the whole thing is a joke. the idea of withholding a meeting, one of the republicans today said i think it was representative turr said if you're going to impeach over him not taking a meeting, go ahead. so they were just living in different worlds. i think mimi is right, if you could not check your reason at

the door as you go in and analyze this, yeah, maybe you would get an unbiased jury. but it's politics. everybody in the country seem tuesday have a point of view, and certainly, you know, the republicans and democrats are just in completely different worlds. >> maybe this is circular. every time i pick up one of the major papers now in the morning the day after one of these testimonies they completely get their point across. it's all their in print. the print people have been wonderful in terms of this examination, but they're also wonderful at recording what we're learning, the big papers. people like peter baker and analyzing those main bars, those analytical bars on it the front page of the paper. at the outset dr. hill delivered an indictment of trump's conspirators. and here's dr. hill today. >> based on questions and statements i have heard some of you on this committee appear to believe that russia and its security services did not conduct a campaign against our

country and that perhaps somehow for some reason ukraine did. this is fictional narrative that has been perpetrated and propagated by the russian security services themselves. i refuse to be part of an effort to legitimize an ultimate narrative that the ukrainian government is a u.s. adversary and the ukraine, not russia attacked us in 2016. these fictions are harmful even if they're deployed for purely domestic political purposes. >> that's the same conspiracy theory the one about ukraine sk screwing with our elections in 2016 that president trump asked ukrainian president zelensky to investigate the crazy fiction. he's asking another president to do some crazy work for him in that july 25th call. well, that fictional narrative was pushed by rudy giuliani, and trump tried to legitimize it despite being told it's untrue. >> now, isn't it also true that some of president trump's most senior advisers had informed him

that this theory of ukraine interference in the 2016 election was false? >> that's correct. >> so is it your understanding then that president trump disregarded the advice of his senior officials about this theory and instead listened to rudy giuliani's views? >> that appears to be the case, yes. >> michael steele, we sat around our offices today for a couple of minutes today. we didn't waste much time on it. trying to figure out what the ukraine conspiracy was. it's totally fiction. but the beauty of it my producers have argued and i think they're right because it's so murky, they just say like benghazi and it's like manchurian candidate, just show the right playing card. >> how much investigation did we do on benghazi fast and furious and what were the outcomes? but what it did was set in motion a narrative they could always come back to. >> a buzzword. >> a buzzword.

so here we are. we watched a pathetic performance. so pathetic at the end they couldn't ask questions because they knew the moment they did she would shred them alive on live television. and that's the reality i think a lot of republicans in that room confronted. to the point that after they would trash her, they'd get up and leave the room. they weren't man enough to stay. >> and i thought they did some of this gobbledy gook to just kill some of their five minutes. >> some was dr. hill's clarity when contrasted with how unclear and unsure of their story they were. and i think one of the reasons you saw that is because remember dr. hill comes from the intelligence community. she's trained not only to think about but quantify how certain she is about the narrative she's putting forward, the information and her analytic judgments, and

i think you saw that and america saw that today. and as a kunsquence, you know, her confidence really broke through. >> i think shaeld be sitting around this table pretty soon. anyway if we're lucky at this network. anyway, dr. hill explained in vivid detail how she intervened in the so-called ward room, somewhere in the west wing just after that july 10th meeting. >> when i came in gordon sondland was basically saying, well, look, we have a deal here that there will be a meeting, i have a deal here with chief of staff mulvaney, there will be a meeting if ukrainians open up or announce these investigations into 2016 in burisma, and i cut it off immediately there. because at this point having heard mr. giuliani over and over again on the television and all of the issues that he was asserting, by this point it was clear that burisma was code for the bidens because giuliani was laying it out there.

>> let me go to mimi on this question. if you were a judge on a bench trial would you believe sondland when he is said i didn't know burisma were the bidens after all those months? would you believe him? >> absolutely not. first of all, and i think the point ms. hill was trying to make today was it belies common sense. i know i keep using that word, and i know it's not the world we're in, but she was trying to drive that home today, too. you know, first of all you have rudy giuliani out there publicly saying that he's going after biden. i mean, there was this whole dust up and in fact he called off his first trip to ukraine because there was such an outcry about it because he said exactly what he was doing, that he was going to investigate the bidens for his client, trump. and, you know, you have to suspend belief and say, well, of all the companies in all the world, you know, donald trump was concerned with burisma for no reason having to do with the

fact joe biden -- it makes absolutely no sense. and she -- what you saw today was two people saying no one had to tell me explicitly although again giuliani was explicit about it because i was putting this is the two plus two is four together. what the republicans keep trying to come back to is well nobody said explicitly that's what it was. just like nobody said it's a quid pro quo at the time. and, you know, that's not how criminals crime. that's don't say it explicitly as they're doing it. >> that's not how politicians talk, by the way. it's grunts and groans, come on you know what i want. nobody sits there and writes these contracts. it's not how you do it. if you can grunt it, don't say it. if you can write it, don't say it. the old rules apply. this table will stay whole. coming up, it's a whole new ball game after the president's point person for the ukraine shakedown

ambassador gordon sondland testifies, quote, everyone was in the loop naming he did donald trump, pence, the vp who tries not to get involved in these things. pompeo, mulvaney i don't know where he's still in this thing, and of course rudy. they're all working together. that was so amazing when sondland did that a couple of times. he said it wasn't the outliers, it was the inliers, the government of the united states working in this escapade. we've got much more to get to. stick with us. more to get to. stick with us. we know a thing or two because we've seen a thing or two. even a- (ernie) lost rubber duckie? (burke) you mean this one? (ernie) rubber duckie! (cookie) what about a broken cookie jar? (burke) again, cookie? (cookie) yeah. me bad. (grover) yoooooow! oh! what about monsters having accidents? i am okay by the way! (burke) depends. did you cause the accident, grover? (grover) cause an accident? maybe... (bert) how do you know all this stuff? (burke) just comes with experience. (all muppets) yup. ♪ we are farmers.

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did your boss ambassador bolton tell you that giuliani was, quote, a hand grenade? >> he did, yes. >> what do you think he meant by his characterization of giuliani as a hand grenade? >> what he meant by this was pretty clear to me in the context of all of the statements

that mr. giuliani was making publicly that the investigations that he was promoting, that the story line he was promoting, the narrative he was promoting was going to backfire. i think it has backfired. >> well, that was good planning for the future. anyway, welcome back to "hardball." that was dr. hill, the president's former top advisor on russia testifying today on former national security advisor john bolton's assessment of the president's personal lawyer, rudy giuliani, the hand grenade. hill told the committee sondland was involved in a domestic political air bd in his dealings with ukraine. in his testimony yesterday ambassador sondland repeatedly said he worked with giuliani on ukraine because he was acting at the express direction of the president. >> secretary perry, ambassador volker and i worked with mr. rudy giuliani on ukraine matters at the express direction of the president of the united states. i followed the directions of the

president. we worked with mr. giuliani because the president directed us to do so. when the president says talk to my personal lawyer, mr. giuliani, we followed his direction. i was following the president's direction to speak with mr. giuliani. we followed the direction of the president because that was the only pathway to working with ukraine. >> i'm back with eli stokels. it's interesting because the president can compete -- can perform, carry out an impeachable crime, something that's a high crime or misdemeanor, something like abuse of power. i've been thinking through all these people working for him from pompeo, to giuliani at the top, pompeo, mick mulvaney, rick perry, all these names. they're not committing a crime. they cannot abuse power because they don't have power. is this one of those cases where you can isolate the president's wrongdoing and that all the other people who say i'm just

obeying orders are probably not going to be charged with anything? they seem to all be players but he's the mastermind. >> well, i would look at it sort of the other way around, actually. i mean the president right now as it stands can't be prosecuted for a crime. he can only be impeached. a and as we know you don't have to commit a crime to be impeached. although what i think is going on here is that we do have a bribery conspiracy. we have a conspiracy to interfere in our election, which as we know from you know the mueller report is a crime in and of itself. i mean, just those two alone i think -- you know, i think sondland, he tried to walk this line of not implicating himself. that's part of this whole burisma biden fiction, right? as long as they say the investigation was just about burisma, it's maybe not a crime. but once you say it's about biden, a political opponent, he knows he would have been

admitting to a campaign finance crime. but i think all of these people -- i mean if we had an independent uncorrupted department of justice right now, i think that these people would all be investigated for those crimes. and, by the way, part of that includes getting interviews from them if they're willing to give them subpoenaing them, documents from them. all the things that the white house and state department are stone walling on which is part of why that is obstructive. >> what's so interesting is john bolton who's apparently written a big book contract, and i understand those things, he's going to be called by history in the next couple of weeks. they're having a decision on articles of impeachment probably by mid-december perhaps and he's sitting on the side lines. how's that going to work in. >> it's in the eye of the beholder. everybody can make their own judgments what that is with hold

information you claim hasn't come out and write in a book to make money off of. he's not coming forward on his own, and i think the calculations, the democrats are looking at this, they understand the republicans are not moving. none of this has really moved a single republican they know of, and so would john bolton be enough to do it, but maybe john bolton but they understand this is something they can't let drag out for months. i talked to a republican today and said if this is so important and it's not about politics, who cares about the calendar, go to court and get the information out. but democrats just don't believe that is going to change the outcome of this. >> there's two outcomes, michael. there's the one where you get 67 votes in the senate. that might be a long shot. but you get a handful of republicans and you get a majority vote for conviction of removal from office, i think that changes the way this is going to be read. therefore a guy like john bolton

could bring a susan collins. it could be a handful perhaps. >> i think that's right on its face, but i think the final moment of today's hearings sort of clarified to me to your point, eli, where republicans are. i listened to will hurd, the texas congressman retiring from congress who was always considered sort of a maverick because he was sort of independent in his republicanism, today landed right on the front porch of donald trump and pretty much said there's nothing here. i don't don't see any reason to vote for impeachment. so that sends a movement to the senate there is no movement for republicans anywhere near. >> what do you think about john bolton? he's a hawk, been a symbol of the sort of tough policy of the george w. bush administration all the way back to his father. if he comes out and says this guy is a rogue, crooked president, he misused his authority, will that get a handful of republicans for impeachment, for conviction?

>> you know i think that's probably somewhat unknowable, but i think regardless of the answer to that question, i think he owes it to the people who worked for him who we've seen go and -- >> like fiona hill. >> like fiona hill who displayed tremendous courage and dignity. he owes it oo them and the american people to tell the truth. >> with virtually every counter argument already dismantled republicans today resorted to lecturing the witnesses or just outright giving up. >> nowhere is there a holmes tells taylor what the president of the united states told sondland. i'll get to you. i'll give you a chance here in a second. >> you guys want to be the laughingstock of history to impeach a president of the united states because he didn't take a meeting? oh, please, dear god. >> i actually have no questions for you that haven't already been asked or made any points that haven't already been made. this impeach a palooza finally

comes to an end. >> they didn't have much to play with. they're sitting like with poker with an 8 in their hand. they didn't have anything so they're dicking around basically. >> i mean, look, after being demolished one after the other asking fiona hill questions, every time she would just sort of very effectively take the question, say a little bit that sort of led you into thinking she was going in one direction and then she would just turn that right around and she wasn't to be trifled with. look, she knows her brief, she comes from the intelligence community, she's a trained briefer. she knows how to convey the information that she's there to convey, and she's not going to let anybody deviate her from that, and we saw that in the testimony and in the substance what she was telling us about the action she took. >> she was a sharp thinking

economical talker, didn't waste a word. and this guy, jordan, i've said it off camera, he reminds me of the bad guy at the jock table at holy cross. not all jocks are bad guys, obviously. but he's one sob and he loobs like a bully. >> he was put on the committee for a reason and you saw today especially why they wanted him on the committee. he carried the water he needed to carry, and it was to muddy up the witnesses as best he could. but he couldn't with fiona. >> the boston celtics had a guy like this once. remember him? he went into the game to physically hurt will chamberlain or somebody. that was his job. thank you. he's back. eli stokels, thank you. katrina mulligan, michael steele with an e. thank you, mimi. up next witness testimony has put a bright spotlight on the break down of u.s. diplomacy under this administration, don't you think inmaybe trump would

have been better leaving the diploem osto the diplomats. you're watching "hardball." dips you're watching "hardball. lking) lking) for every dollar you spend at a small business, an average of 67 cents stays local. shop small and watch it add up. small business saturday by american express is november 30th. (honk!) i hear you sister. that's why i'm partnering with cigna to remind you to go in for your annual check-up, and be open with your doctor about anything you feel

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shop small and watch it add up. small business saturday by american express is november 30th. welcome back to "hardball." the american public heard this week from nine current and former civil servants, foreign policy servants who detailed an insidious plot to use american foreign policy to benefit the president of the united states'

own purposes. >> it was very clear at this point that there was let's just say a different channel in operation in relations to ukraine, one that was domestic and political in nature, and it was very different from the channel or the loop, however you'd like it, that i and my colleagues were in. >> we never thought it was irregular, we thought it was in the center line. >> ambassador taylor in your decades of diplomatic service representing the united states around the world, have you ever seen another example of foreign aid conditioned on the personal or political interests of the president of the united states? >> no, mr. goldman, i have not. >> is pressuring ukraine to conduct what i believe you called political investigations a part of u.s. foreign policy to promote the rule of law in ukraine and around the world? >> it is not. >> is it in the national interests of the united states? >> in my opinion, it is not.

>> well, yesterday the american ambassador to the european union gordon sondland, of course, told members of the intelligence committee that the arms for dirt scheme came directly from president trump and was implicitly sanctioned by vice president pence and the secretary of state mike pompeo among others. >> everyone was in the loop. it was no secret. throughout these events we kept state department leadership and others apprised of what we were doing. state department was fully supportive of our engagement in ukraine efforts and was aware that a commitment to investigations was among the issues we were pursuing. >> joining me right now is u.s. ambassador william burns, a 33-year veteran of the state department. before that as ambassador to russia in the george w. bush administration. he details his three decades in foreign diplomacy in a book, the

back channel, a memoir of american diplomacy and its case for renewal. i've had to deal with doctors a lot lately and i always say this guy or this woman got through organic chemand you guys and you women before you even get to talk diplomacy or what's going on in the world you have to master these languages like russia in your case, arabic. what really came on the air in the last two weeks in these hearings is the brains, the ability to master foreign language and the ability to do everything else. >> it made me incredibly proud as someone who's a professional diplomat for a long time and having worked and served with a number of people who have testifying. because for most americans diplomacy is an abstraction. but american citizens have

gotten to see against a terrible backdrop of the impeachment inquiry real live human beings who are principled, patriotic, who are professional public servants. they're walking up to capitol hill with their heads held high and speaking truth to power however inconvenient it is to the administration. >> i was always impressed with our foreign service is they're all stunned by trump. they didn't get this from "w" who i had problems with, we disagreed on policy of course, from obama. they've never seen anyone like this president coming in just saying my way or the highway, do what i want, carry out this scheme to get dirt on biden for me. >> and what you end up with is not the diplomacy. i learned in all those years in both democratic and republican administrations this is diplomacy as an exercise in narcissism. as fiona hill put it, when you're elevating domestic political errands over national security interests as well. >> did you catch the republican -- i'm not knocking

the republican party, but there's a thing here, this sort of anti-deep state they're calling it. anyone who works for the government, you work at nasa, you're the bad guy or woman. here they go they call it interagency. like there's something wrong with people getting along with each other. there was someone snarling the other day it was probably jordan making fun of -- i don't care about your interagency thinking, the president of the united states is the boss. okay, he is the boss. but you would think he's use the government to get things done and they're mocking the government. >> rather than side line career expertise, you'd want to take advantage of it. there was sometimes when i disagreed with policy choices, but it was my obligation to be honest about concerns but then do the best i could to implement policy. >> how do you stand up to a president if you want to keep your career? how do you deal with that conflict? mr. sondland who's basically a political appointment, he's heading back to brusal but he

doesn't know how long he's going to last. he paid a million bucks for that ambassadorship. >> but for career civil servants who aren't paying for their jobs they have an obligation to be honest. and there's a formal channel called the dissent channel in the state department that david holmes used in the obama administration to express concern about policy in afghanistan. so there are channels you can use, and you have an obligation to be honest about your concerns. >> well, in her opening statement dr. fiona hill today said that some politicians were weaponizing russian backed falsehoods and warned that russia remained a threat. >> the impacts of the successful 2016 russian campaign remains evident today. our nation is being torn apart. truth is questioned. our highly professional and expert career foreign service is being undermined. u.s. support for ukraine has been politicized. the russian government's goal is to weaken our country, to

diminish america's global role and to neutralize a perceived u.s. threat to russian interests. right now russia security services and their proxies have geared up to repeat their interference in the 2020 election. we are running out of time to stop them. >> what do you think of her? >> i worked with fiona when -- >> tell s about her. >> when i was in ambassador in russia fiona was the intelligence officer for russia. she knows russia, knows putin as well as anybody that i know in the u.s. government. and she was a wonderful colleague as well. principled, full of integrity and honesty. >> well, she wrote a 500-page book about putin's psyche. and i don't think trump's read it. >> i don't think so. >> thank you for your service to us all. up next, the impeachment investigation takes center stage at the fifth democratic debate last night. i was there and that's coming up next. you're watching "hardball." e anp

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welcome back to "hardball." the democratic candidates for president have had to compete for attention with impeachment, of course. naflgt it was the firsttom topit last night's democratic debate. >> we have to establish the principle no one is above the law. we have a constitutional spaubt and we need to meet it. >> we have a criminal living in the white house. >> i learned something about these impeachment trials. i learned number one that donald trump doesn't want me to be the nominee. that's pretty clear. >> sadly, we have a president who's not only a pathological liar, he's likely the most corrupt president in the modern history of america. >> while the candidates focused most of their attacks on the president, of course, leveling few punches at each other and trying to bolster their own case for the nomination. >> i govern both with my head and my heart. and if aiothink a woman can't

beat donald trump, nancy pelosi does it every single day. >> you have to ask yourself up here, who is most likely to be able to win the nomination in the first place, to win the presidency in the first place? and secondly who is most likely to increase the number of people who were democrats in the house and in the senate? >> in order to defeat this president, we need somebody who can go toe to toe, who actually comes from the kinds of communities that he's been appealing to. i don't talk a big game about helping the working class while helicoptering between golf courses with my name on them. >> well, mayor pete buttigieg who headed into the night leading in the polls in iowa and surging almost to the top now in new hampshire faced attacks himself regarding his experience. >> mayor, i have all appreciation for your good work as a local official, and you you did that when you tried. and yuls have done this work. i think experience should

matter. >> so first of all washington experience is not the only experience that matters. there's more than a hundred years of washington experience on this stage. and where are we right now as a country? >> well, there were ten candidates on that stage last night. seven others could not participate at all. including one candidate who just entered the race last week. and that candidate, former massachusetts two-term governor deval patrick joins me next on what he brings to the race. he's going to tell us. and what the others don't have, he's going to tell us that, too. you're watching "hardball." to . you're watching "hardball. ♪ ♪ experience the power of sanctuary at the lincoln wish list sales event. sign and drive off in a new lincoln with zero down, zero due at signing, and a complimentary first month's payment.

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welcome back to "hardball." after last night's debate there were few remaining opportunities for the democratic presidential candidates to make their mark on the national stage before the iowa caucuses now less than three months away. and making things even more challenging for the candidates the prez dej campaign is being over shadowed by the impeachment investigation which is probably going to reach its climax in january. president trump will face a trial by the senate then that could side line six of the candidates, warren, sanders and the others just as they need to make their final pitches in iowa to win the caucuses on february 3rd. that might be to the benefit of the latest democratic candidate to jump into the race. sitting with me right now is former massachusetts governor and presidential candidate deval patrick. well, you were a popular governor. >> thank you. >> and i'm wondering and i'm not overwhelmed by this field.

i haven't picked any favorites. there's nobody perfect in this race. >> it is a strong field, though, you have to say. >> how nice of you to say so. then why are you joining it? what do they need? >> what we need as a party and i'm proud of this, we are setting an ambitious agenda. but to accomplish that agenda in a way that we make change that lasts, we've got to bring other people utah into the conversation and be open to different pathways to accomplish that. that's what i've done in my personal life, in my business life, in my life in government service. and i have, in fact, had some experience in delivering on those ambitious outcomes, health care, 98 plus percent of our residents in massachusetts have health care today. we began to dismantle mandatory minimum sentencing and we built an economy which was growing out -- >> i know know what i hear,

governor, you're running against elizabeth warren. because elizabeth warren says we don't need a big broad coalition. we'll get 50. if they have a problem with the filibuster, i'll get rid of the filibuster. i i'll push it through and i'll get the rich people to pay for -- are you against that? >> some of them i am, some of them i'm not. but i want to make clear i'm not just talking about the very real politics of getting things done in the senate, in theous. i'm talking about the very real civics of engaging more of our electorate in the electoral process and in their own civic and political future. there are reasons, i think, why candidate trump was right when he said in 2016 that, you know, establishment politics -- >> what did president obama say when you told him you were getting in? he's your buddy. >> he is. >> did he encourage you or discourage you?

>> look, he's been a great friend and a great confidant. >> was he happy when you said you were getting in? >> he was happy as a citizen and he's concerned as a friend. and you can imagine that's kind of the consistent reaction i've gotten from a lot of people. >> i was impressed he made a statement. he said, you know, we're not a revolutionary country right now. we want an improvement in our lives. we don't want a revolution. that's a shot at bernie. >> look, i think there are ways in which the kind of frustration and anger that are expressed not just within the party but at large are very familiar to me having grown up on the south side of chicago, that sensed the economy had kind of gotten up and left us behind. that what comes in instead is opioids, over policing, the sense your issues are paid attention to at campaign time and forgotten at the next election. >> they're planning to deal with

the challenge of joe biden in south carolina which is 60% minority. >> i was in south carolina yesterday, as a matter of fact. >> my point. >> i was also in new hampshire at the beginning of the week and in iowa the day before, and south carolina -- >> this is political show, governor. i zbrat respect for you and everybody likes you -- >> there's a but coming. >> you're getting into a contest if you will and it's the country's future. february 3rd is iowa. it's way too late -- i think you're talking new hampshire, you're talking south carolina, is that right? >> watch me. we're going to compete everywhere. you've got to be realistic about the schedule and where we are, and the fact there are other candidates who have been months and years at this on money and on developing -- >> you're low balling it. >> i totally get that. listen, i'm trying to make a point here that is also political, chris. honestly. and that is you've got to understand that there are a lot of people who feel important

only during the early state contest, and then they don't feel important again. and there are people in other places -- >> you're coming in late. you're a sleeper and coming in late. thank you, former governor deval patrick. i'm having fun with him because he got in late. up next what the candidates told me last night after the debate. you're watching "hardball." me last night after the debate you're watching "hardball. for your annual check-up,ren and be open with your doctor about anything you feel - physically and emotionally. but now cigna has a plan that can help everyone see stress differently. just find a period of time to unwind. a location to de-stress. an activity to enjoy. or the name of someone to talk to. to create a plan that works for you, visit cigna.com/mystressplan. cigna. together, all the way. visit cigna.com/mystressplan. my body is truly powerful. i have the power to lower my blood sugar and a1c. because i can still make my own insulin. and trulicity activates

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last night the democrats running for president held their fifth debate down in atlanta. and after the debate i spoke with many of the kablcandidates the so-called spin room. let's watch. if you're in a black church in south carolina right now and you're having some numbers problems down there, what would you say to people who were against you perhaps because of your orientation? >> i talked very openly about my orientation. we have got to put away this idea that homophobia is somehow something that only applies to it black community or -- >> i didn't mean that. >> but some folks out there are saying it. and look, the reality is people approach elections and certainly black voters i talked to approach elections where one main question in mind. and it's this. how is my life going to be different if you're president versus one of these people out there, and why do you care? if i can answer that i think a lot of other considerations fall to the side lines. >> so you think this guy should be removed from office? >> which guy?

>> donald trump. >> i think the process of impeachment is a robust and important process and it should proceed. i think it's going to end up in impeachment. >> do you have a vote figured out? >> i have eyes and ears and i can see what everyone sees in plain sight, which leads me to believe there's a lot of evidence there that would be grounds for impeachment. >> people say you're aspirational like obama was, but 2019 -- why won't aspiration and hope and we can do a better job and we can make it in this country, it's not nostalgia, it's optimism. >> bill clinton talked about hope, he was polling at 4% right now and he eventually won. barack obama this day in his race in 2007 he was 21 points behind hillary clinton but he talked aspirationally, so this is my moment. >> what unites us, chris, is so much stronger than what dedivides us. when you look at what happened

just in kentucky, in virginia, and they continue to make the case for free everything. and as i said today i know these things sound good on a bumper sticker and maybe they want to throw in a free car, but i really don't think that is what people want. they want a fair shake. they want opportunity. >> that's "hardball" for now. all " all in with chris hayes starts right now. tonight on "all in." >> this president believes he is above the law, beyond accountability. >> the fifth day of public impeachment hearings bolstering the case against the president's men. >> he was being involved in a domestic political errand. >> implicating trump himself. >> the president's voice was loud and recognizable. >> rep manding house republicans. >> i would ask you please not promote political falsehoods. >> tonight the extraordinary testimony this week and the most damning for the president. >> everyone was in the loop.

>> when trump's own guy threw him under the bus. >> we followed