capacity to ignore my conscience. i don't have the capacity to say that what was wrong was not wrong. what the president nedid was grievously wrong. >> it was and yet the president got away with it. good morning and welcome to "morning joe." it is thursday february 6th. along with joe, willie and me we have msnbc contributor mike barnicle. republican strategist and msnbc political analyst susan del percio. chief national correspondent for the "new york times" magazine, mark leibovich is whip us and former white house press secretary to president obama. >> oh, wow. >> gibb-ee. the gibb star. gibby, gibby, gibby, gibby is here this morning. >> that's great. >> good to see you. >> that's great. >> willie -- very few people knew when he was running around the country campaigning for

barack obama that he was, like, the fifth gibbs brother. >> i completely had forgotten about that and as the music came on i could see the regret wash over his face that he had decided to return at long last to "morning joe." >> i missed you guy. >> we miss you, too. a lot to talk about this morning, mika. >> >> yes of course, you have mitt romney, the courage he showed. quite a few democrats who show add great deal of courage, too, yesterday. three or four in particular we'll be talking about. >> absolutely. >> who, i mean, whose political lives were on the line. they chose to do what they believed was right. not what wa be popular back in their state. of course, the president being acquitted but becomes the first president in the history of this republic, willie, the first president to have a member of his own party vote to remove him from office, and what an extraordinary day yesterday

ended up being in washington, d.c. plus, oh, yeah. they're still counting ballots in iowa. >> joe, i ran into steve kornacki in the elevator. boy, a story to tell us. this story is getting crazy and bernie sanders could not only take the popular vote but could edge ahead here also ini delegates. late developments in iowa's democratic caucuses. results from monday night's votes still trickling in. this morning up to 97% of precincts reporting. pete buttigieg and senator bernie sanders are nearly in a tie. let's bring in national political correspondent for nbc news and msnbc steve kornacki. went home, slept about 45 minutes and is back this morning and manning his post at the big board. >> good lord. >> steve, where are we right now? >> here a little after midnight and we got a massive change here in iowa. you can see what it looks like. you just put it up.

0.2% separating senator sanders and pete buttigieg. the key is this number underneath the 26.2, 55 for pete buttigieg and 540 for bernie sanders. the unit of measurement they use in iowa to determine the winner, to determine the national convention delegates called the state delegate equivalent. state delegate equivalent. sorry to do be so arcane but this is very important, because this is how the winner's going to be decided. margin right now is four state delegate equivalents. not many state delegate equivalents left up for grabs in iowa. the reason it got so close, the reason sanders has a chance is not to do with anything that's happened on the map we've shown you the past three days. has to do with these. remember these? the satellite caucuses. on caucus day, on monday before everybody showed up for the regular scheduled caucuses they agreed to hold meetings for

folks who had to work at night, folks with limitations not allowal them to get-to-to their normal caucuses. had a bunch and spread them out by four congress many districts. there are four in iowa. four, three, two, one and waited to the very end to release he's. check out what happened three. fourth congressional district. bernie sanders, 75%. pete buttigieg got 5%. check out what happened in the third congressional district. this is des moines. the biggest one. check this out. 69% sanders. you got to go all the way down here to find buttigieg at 1%. check out what has happened in the second congressional district. this is the iowa city college. more support here for warren. again, 53% for sanders, past klobuchar, biden, yang, oh, there he is. there's pete buttigieg. you see what it adds up to. dot math.

pretend roughly, my approximation of iowa. four congressional districts. sanders gained on buttigieg three here in the fourth congressional district. 12 here in the third congressional district and about 5.5, call it 5 here in the second congressional district. he gained 20 state delegate equivalents from these three congressional districts. as i said, there is one left. the first congressional district. sort of the northeast part of the state. we're expecting to get that sometime today hopefully sometime this morning. if -- if -- the pattern we see holding in the other congressional districts, sanders running away with it. buttigieg not registering, if that holds, that's the possibility for bernie sanders to net another load of state delegates that would put him over the top. i can tell you it's coming down to, always say the cliche, comes down to turnout. the number of state delegates that will be up for grabs in the first congressional district sat

slight caucus depends on how many turned out to vote. 600, 1 or more, it's going to be worth about 11 state delegate equivalents. if it is 600 or less, it's going to be worth 5.6. if it's 11 i think sanders can get over buttigieg state-wide and build up a big enough lead right there, because there are outstanding precincts here in iowa to come in. buttigieg could pick up a little here. 600 plus 1 turnout, buttigieg could get that. 600 or less it is much dicier for him and i can tell you we got folks out there who are checking these precincts as they come in. their best guess now is that number will be right around 600. >> wow. so just to recap. if it hits that 601 bernie sanders takes the delegates. delegate equivalents. how we measure our winner. also already, the sanders campaign can claim victory based on the vote total.

first time we've seen that this year. they made that public. i don't want to jump ahead too far, steve, but is it fair to say these results will be contested either way based on whats in a couple hours with that one outstanding satellite caucus area? >> you can imagine, yeah, if it -- going to be tight no matter what. probably you've seen if following online, in this precinct i thaw this, in this one, here's a picture what's happening. the campaigns have an opportunity to lodge challenges, to lodge complaints with the state democratic party. i believe have to do it by friday. then a period of 48 pours that the state party has to address it. 48 hours. a possibility where this lands a couple more days for looking into it, but you're right. to put the number up when you say sanders and the popular vote this continued to grow. essentially 6,000 now on the first preference, the folks who showed up, advantage for sanders has grown to 4.6000.

the one used for the check marks, official winner, national convention delegates, does he also catch buttigieg there? and, wow. that is a barn burner. what you call it? >> i guess. >> definitely. >> all right. >> thank you so much, steve. >> great job. >> one of my pet peeves, mika, last night and actually since this has been going on, look at the vote total as well and maybe we measure it by that. maybe measure by -- no, no. it's actually that first round. it's like the first half of a football game. >> exactly. >> like the first -- the rules are about delegates. and i think at this point it's so close it doesn't really matter, both bernie and pete can walk away from this. >> feeling strong. >> walk away as winners. it's irritating to hear people obsess. so many number. don't know what to do with it. like the electoral college.

determine who the winner is, determine a winner then that's how a winner is chosen. so anyway it's really not that confusing at all. bernie sanders, mayor pete, joe biden, elizabeth warren knew how they would declare a winner in iowa. we'll find out very soon who that winner is. but robert gibbs, question is, does it matter at this point? i mean, bernie and mayor pete, they can be considered the losers. i mean, the winners. joe biden already admitted he's a loser. i guess elizabeth warren maybe gets a push on to new hampshire as neither a winner nor a loser. how did the results, the chaos of iowa, set up these candidates going into new hampshire? >> sort of a pert effect coda on iowa that the vote total update at 1:00 in the morning creates this sort of chaos at the very last part, but you hit on the point, pledge delegates to the convention are what decide the

eventual nominee, and for both sanders and for mayor pete, i think they both finished ahead of essentially the competition most in their lane. right? sanders is ahead of warren. pete's ahead of biden. that sets both of them up. you see it in the tracking polling in new hampshire. pete getting a bump and maybe creating essentially another two-person race leading into new hampshire right now, and, again, i think important that each of those candidates was ahead in both the liberal and moderate lanes of this primary. >> all right. taking a look at new hampshire right here to robert's point. bernie sanders is big time in the lead. with pete looking like he's coming in second at this point. joe biden down low, though. and elizabeth warren, this is the story i think in new hampshire. >> and that was "the boston globe" here's emerson college sanders 31%. buttigieg, 21%. joe biden and elizabeth warren all the way down 12%.

you know, we could take out a lot of headlines from these polls in iowa, mike, but it seems to me, i mean, we can't predict what's going to happen as we move forward to super tuesday as it pertains to buttigieg and sanders, but we can declare this, that joe biden has been, no doubt, the first full week of this competitive campaign, the loser. he's right. he took a gut punch, and both he and elizabeth warren are going to be staggering out of new hampshire, if these numbers that we see in these polls are anywhere close to being accurate. >> yeah. joe isn't badly damaged, no doubt, by iowa. more specifically, his own campaign. lack of ground game he had in iowa. surprising things about the numbers just put up, joe, is the

rapid slippage. if you were in new hampshire as i was a week or ten days ago you would think bernie ahead, joe biden second and buttigieg sort of, you know, well back. four, five points back. >> right. >> and elizabeth staying the same, which, again, elizabeth warren's slippage has been surprising in new hampshire. she was going to win that primary, if the primary were held on thanksgiving day. of course, it wasn't, and she is where she is now, but joe biden's campaign in new hampshire is now, he is not a must-win, but he is a must-finish second or a close third. anything other than that i think he's hurt in south carolina. >> doesn't look at all like he'll about close second based on that poll. five days to see what happens, obviously. argument from the biden, lower expectations in iowa, do okay in new hampshire. if you finish it looks like

he'll finish in iowa and then finish third or fourth down in new hampshire, all of the sunday voters in south carolina, supposed to be your firewall, looking at you completely differently that and firewall of african-american voters goes, wait a minute. he looks pretty weak. let me take a look at bernie sanders or pete buttigieg, somebody who hasn't had that african-american support. you cannot count on south carolina as lock for joe biden if he does poorly in new hampshire. >> mika, we talked several months ago about the possibility that there was panic among donors. several months ago, that joe biden was going to finish fourth in iowa. going to finish fourth in new hampshire. was going to be out of money by the time he got through that, and would stagger hiss with down to south carolina and hope for the best. right now, right now it's looking like, you know, joe biden, along with elizabeth warren. they both have an awful lot to lose in new hampshire. the only thing i will say is, we

have to remember, and i'm sure mika, robert can remind us of this very well. all of the political obituaries written about hillary clinton in the days leading up to new hampshire. no way she could win. i web back in 1976, george bush's big mo, ronald reagan, press saying didn't have it -- i'm sorry. 1980. he would get beating by george h.w. bush. you can go to george h.w. bush in '88 losing in iowa. coming in third place in iowa. and people writing his political obituary. new hampshire saved him. mika, the second we tell people what new hampshire voters are going to do. >> hmm. >> that's exactly when new hampshire voters make fools out of everybody. >> that's absolutely true. and we've obviously experienced that, but having said that, robert gibbs, guess i'll go to

you. elizabeth warren, if she doesn't do well in new hampshire i'm not sure how she goes on. maybe game that out for me. and joe biden at this point loses all momentum if he fares poorly and polls seem to reflect what we saw in iowa. >> for elizabeth warren, this is essentially a home game. right? she's just over the border in massachusetts. get the -- boston, lots of homes in there. the question for her in this race, if she doesn't beat bernie sanders in new hampshire, and she doesn't in iowa, where in the next three or four places does she beat bernie sanders? how does she overtake him? look, i think for vice president biden it's sort of now or never. >> right. >> i think strategic looking back at the reports that resources were moved out of some other early states into iowa. you have to wonder why that was. given the fourth-place finish.

but to your point, i mean, you've got to make a moment right now. it is time to tear up the schedule, tear up the teleprompter, stump speeches and go out there and speak from the heart, because if you don't do it now, to the point of that boston globe/new hampshire poll, if you see this support dwind dwindling only three days after iowa in new hampshire, what's happening in south carolina? and that firewall as we talked about might not exist by the time we get there. it's a long time before south carolina, and i don't know how much money they have. >> so just quickly, joe. i just wonder looking at the biden showing in iowa and jut the w just the way things seem to be appearing, 24/7 covered by this president during the impeachment trial and in one way shows how fearful president trump was of joe biden. in others you wonder if some of this stuck? >> no.

i don't think it stuck. i think republicans were a lot more afraid of joe biden than people running in the democratic race. listen, we all -- i'll tell you personally we love joe. >> love him. >> and thought he was going to do better than he did. maybe he ends up winning and moves forward, but this is a guy who despite having the love and respect of a lot of people ran in '88. a bad ending to that campaign. ran in 2008, despite winning just about every debate along with chris dodd still didn't, still didn't gain traction there. he just may not be able to gain traction in these contests. it's -- it's really hard to say, but mike barnicle he's going a bigger problem now about his firewall. i remember back in 2007 mika went out late in the year interviewed michelle obama in iowa. they were still concerned about black voters supporting hillary

clinton. instead of barack obama. and then barack obama won iowa. suddenly, black voters said, wait a second. this guy just might win. maybe it's worth a chance. joe biden now is going to face the inverse of that. if he loses two races, suddenly these candidates that black voters in south carolina weren't looking at that were going to provide joe biden the firewall, suddenly they're going to start looking for other options. >> yeah. you know, a couple of points on that, joe. one, sadly, i have to sort of disagree with you on the impact of what mika just pointed out. i think accurately. the hunter biden burisma stuff, biden corruption investigation that has been going on verbally on the other side, maliciously on the other side, i think it has hurt him a bit, because it's out there as a talking point. people ask you about it. the send point here is new hampshire as gibbsy just points

out, voters are notoriously cranky and independent and robert was up there in 2008 when hillary clinton went to a pancake breakfast in new hampshire and broke down in tears and gave every voter in new hampshire the ability to do something almost impossible to do with hillary clinton and remained impossible to do, access her emotionally. that's a large part of what new hampshire is about. you've covered new hampshire a long time looking at that state, looking at the voters. joe biden's best shot might be just that, i think, going into these final days, to access the voters even more on an emotional level rather than a political level. >> and joe biden can do that. that is something that he is actually equipped to do i think to robert's point a few minutes ago. he's actually a tear up the script kind of guy. he could actually connect and sort of in an 11th hour, you know, sort of almost desperation mode in the last few days.

as we've been talking about, five days is a long time in new hampshire. billion clinton proved it. hillary clinton proved it. and at this point, i think new hampshire nobel tends to be independent but assert they are independent. tend to look at iowa, look at polls and tend to have a real satisfaction going the other way. so, look. i think joe biden is in big trouble, says speciespecially i believe the last round of poms. firewall in danger but new hampshire could surprise people. they like surprising people. i don't think they like being disregarded under the weight of iowa as they have been the last few weeks and could still be an opportunity for joe biden but he's got get moving. >> one of those human moments at a cnn town hall talked to a voter about his stuttering. a nice moment, but also on the trail yesterday in new hampshire sharpened his attacks. he knows this is kind of do or die time. he went after mayor pete. said i got a lot of respect for

mayor pete. this guy was mayor of a city of 100,000 people a couple minutes ago. said bernie sanders is a democratic socialist, calls himself that. are we shure we want a socialis running against donald trump? clear to me joe biden and his camp know they have to move now. >> that's almost the problem with the biden campaign. chose to go after sanders and pete. what are you going after that you have to ask the biden campaign? what i hear on the ground, the buttigieg campaign has done a great job going after those independents that especially tend to lean republican who may come out and can corral them. a huge blow to the biden campaign because they nerve her a great operation on the ground in iowa and they don't really have a great operation on the ground in new hampshire. what i worry, what i think will be the big effogest concern, ev he does well on south carolina he's running on almost empty in the money. super tuesday, bernie close to

$50 million on hand. buttigieg a lot of money and mike bloomberg, who has countless amount of monies he'll be spending there. i think it's going to be very hard for him to fight that path. not that it's impossible, but it's not lining up for him. >> all right. still ahead on "morning joe" -- mitt's moment. big story yesterday. how the opinion pages tackled mitt romney's historic vote. we'll run through the must-reads and let the republican senator speak for himself. "morning joe" is back in a moment. i remember thinking about things i did and wondering if that was the last time i was going to do that thing. coming to cancer treatment centers of america, they treat the whole person. everything is here. imaging, infusion. i don't have to go anywhere else. they cared about me as a person beyond just being a cancer patient.

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xfinity x1. simple. easy. awesome. xfinity. the future of awesome. impeachment trial ended yesterday but the vote to acquit was not a bipartisan one as the white house had hoped. it was the vote to convict that was bipartisan on article i,

abuse power republican mitt romney crossed party lines with a vote to convict. the first time in american history a senator has voted to remove a president of his own party. article ii, obstruction of congress was a straight party line vote. meaning three key democrats from swing states, trump won, also voted to convict. doug jones currently in a tough re-election battle in alabama and from west virginia and kyrsten sinema. >> the constitution is at the floor of our -- the constitution established the vehicle of impeachment that is occupied both houses of our congress these many days. we have labored to faithfully execute our responsibilities to it. we have arrived at different judgments, but i hope we respect

each other's good faith. the allegations made in the articles of impeachment are very serious. as a senator juror, i swore an oath before god to exercise impartial justice. i am profoundly religious. my faith is at the heart of who i am. i take an oath before god as enormously consequential. so the verdict is ours to ruendr under our constitution how well we fulfill or duty, the people will jump. tasks senators to answer is whether the president committed an act so extreme and egregious

that it rises to the level of a high crime and misdemeanor. yes, he did. the president asked a foreign government to investigate his political rival. the president withheld vital military funds from that government to press it to do so. the president delayed funds for an american ally at war with russian inindividualers. the president's purpose was personal and political. accordingly the president is guilty of an appalling abuse of public trust. what he did was not perfect. no. it was a flagrant assault on our electoral rights, our national security and our fundamental values. corrupting an election to keep oneself in office is perhaps the most abusive and destructive violation of one's oath of office that i can imagine.

in the last several weeks i have received numerous calls and texts, many demanded in their words that i stand with the team. i can assure you that that thought has been very much in my mind. you see, i support a great deal of what the president has done. i voted with him 80% of the time. but my promise before god to apply impartial justice required that i put my personal feelings and political biases aside. were i to ignore the evidence that has been presented and disregard what i believe my oath and the constitution demands of me, for the sake of a partisan end, it would, i fear, expose my character to history's rebuke, and the censure of my own conscience. i'm aware there be people in my party and state who will strenuously disapprove of my

decision and some corners vehemently denounced. i'm sure to hear abuse from the president and his supporters. does anyone seriously believe that i would consent to these consequences other than from an inescapable conviction that my oath before god demanded it of me? i sought to hear testimony from john bolton not only because i believed he could add context to the charges, but also because i hoped that what he might say could raise reasonable doubt, and thus remove from me the awful obligation to vote for impeachment. like each member of this deliberative body i love our country. i believe that our constitution was inspired by providence. i'm convinced that freedom itself is dependent on the strength and vitality of our national character, as it is with each senator, my vote is an

act of conviction. we have come to different conclusions, fellow senators, but i trust we have all followed the dictates of our conscience. i acknowledge my verdict will not remove the president from office. the results of this senate court will in fact be appealed to a higher court, the judgment of the american people. voters will make the final decision just as the president's lawyers had implored. my vote will likely be in the minority in the senate, but irrespective of these things, with my vote i will tell my children and their children that i did my duty to the best of my ability believing that my country expected it of me. i will only be one name among many, no more, no less, to future generations of americans who look at the record of this trial. they will note merely that i was among the senators who determined that what the president did was wrong. grievously wrong. we are all footnotes at best in

the annals of history. but in the most powerful nation on earth, the nation conceived in liberty and justice, that distinction is enough for any citizen. thank you, mr. president. i yield the floor. >> and with that, the white house, trump's kids, the republican party, just began to snap back, lash out against mitt romney, the consequences started rolling in almost immediately. mark leibovich, you spoke to mitt romney right after he made up his mind. what did he tell you? >> he told me what he was going to do and i was frankly not surprised but also quite something to hear him actually make that decision. i talked to him about an hour before he gave that speech. a couple things struck me. one, he was nervous. seemed, mitt romney is known for being just ice water in his veins kind of guy.

not a lot seems to phase him. spoke haltingly. very emotional about this decision, hadn't slept much in a long time and that was reflected in his speech itself. the other thing that struck me was just how deeply he had thought about this. i think people will be very cynical about this. that's soar of the nature how people view politics these days. they'll see the agony as a bit performative. sitting there talking to him, there was a real sense, not so much of self-justification, but of a full awareness of what was in store for him. that there were going to be really severe political consequences for him, and that he was okay with it. he knew and he even anticipated in that speech that the president was going to come right after him. his allies come right after him. he knows what kind of noise this is going to make, what dust this is going to kick up yet he did it anyway. and i think he's prepared i think like he said for the judgment of history, the judgment of his faith, and you

know, eventually this will subside and i think he will be remembered more for this than perhaps anything he's ever done in his political career except maybe losing the presidency in 2012. >> mika, you and i have known mitt for a long time and always had such great respect for him. one of the things, though, that i've always noticed ak hibout h and our personality ares very different in many ways, but in one particular way he's mattingly cautious, and he especial especial especially -- maddingly cautious. takes the calculated route. it is who he is. like the guy who jumps off the cliff and says i'll figure out how to make the parachute on the way down. fascinating about the times we live in. the other person maddingily

cautious through the years, mike bloomberg. why? they're both data guys. they're both guys that sit in front of computer screens and look at the data. make the wisest, most calculated move, and yet in the age of trump, they have decided to go against the odds for the first time in their life. to take chances. to throw caution to the wind simply because of an inner voice. in mitt's case, because of a higher calling. because of an oath to god. and that's what's different. different about these times. yes, we see a lot of people acting worse. but mika, in this case, you see some people actually taking chances they would have never taken in normal times. >> another tough vote yesterday jon tester, who also is in this group. who pushed back despite perhaps consequences with their constituency.

>> yeah. no doubt. mike barnicle, i thought pete wehner put it best. so many people wrote beautifully of what mitt romney did, and a lot of people who were conservatives, a lot of people who will liberals, and pete wehner said he acted honorably, and he acted alone. >> hmm. >> that sums it up very well. >> yeah, joe. your point about the similarities between mike bloomberg and mitt romney both data guys, thousand he made so much money in their former professions in business, gathering data and employing data in terms of a direction, but data stops at the door of character and conscience. and mitt has always had both. sometimes not very much on display as he would admit to you or to anyone right now when he was governor of massachusetts. he cut deals with the speaker of

the house, a democrat, all the tile. he didn't like doing it, but he did. but the big thing yesterday, libo, in watching and listening intently to mitt romney on the floor of the united states senate was the impact that has always been there on him, no matter what he was doing. whether it was in business or in politics on his faith, his family and his father. >> that's correct. i think george romney, the three-term governor of michigan in the '60s and '70s, mitt's dad weighs heavily on him and really has from the start of his public career. you recall during the president's campaigns he ran in 2008 and 2012 he used to always say he would put the word "dad" on a piece of paper and put it on the debate lecterns before he would go do his debates, just to remember the example of his dad. and, look. he would say now he didn't always live up to that, and

george romney was remembered i think more than anything as someone who did a very unpopular thing inside his party in the '60s which is oppose the vietnam war. got on the wrong side of richard nixon. on the wrong side of a lot of republicans and took him a long time to recover and sort of thought of well by the verdict of history. so, look, mitt romney. took him a while. late stage of his career he didn't anticipate having but in ways had a chance to rewrite the ending how he would be remembered and that's part of what he did yesterday. >> so susan, obviously it was an extraordinary act of political courage given the climate we're in but worth stopping and thinking why that is an act of courage. that the frame has so shifted that based on all that evidence we saw in the house trial and everything else we heard, the arguments made by the house managers all of those other republican senators could turn away and say, no. not an impeachable offense. it shouldn't be extraordinary. it shouldn't take courage to do what mitt romney did.

clearly, it did. he knows the fallout, knows what's coming. saw immediately the president's son calling for mitt romney to be expelled from the republican party. he knows all that. he was comfortable with it and went with it because he said he had an obligation to history, could constitution, to god and to his children. it's worth stopping and considering why that is so extraordinary to consider the clear evidence and vote to convict on one of those articles. >> as mitt romney said, he took an oath to do this joond b and did it. pressured to be on the team and he said i am on the teal. team usa. gave speech, listening to it, hoping it would change some minds up there. it was that inspiring. but what i realized was very quickly it won't. it's not only because of the attacks the twitter attacks, the president's attacks and everything that goes on. that he was willing to bear. i think the thing that will probably hurt romney the most is

the people who knew better and republicans who are angry at mitt for being so principled and making them not look good, because they weren't. they have been angry at him several times since he came into the senate. this one is going to stick with them, and that's what's really so sad and unfortunate is that they can't just admit their failings, that they are angry at mitt romney for standing up for what was right. >> you know i spoke with somebody close to mitt yesterday. really close, who said that one of his biggest concerns was he didn't want to put people that he worked with, had great respect for and genuinely liked, his colleagues, didn't want to put them in a bad position but knew he had no choice. he had to do what he had to do and so he did it, but also, for a lot of people around mitt romney, when you ask them, well,

how concerned is mitt? he's concerned, but at the same time, he's only saying on the floor of the senate what every other, or almost every other republican is saying alone at night about donald trump, or to friends at night when the cameras are turned off and the microphones are away, mika. i mean, mitt romney really is speaking more for the republicans in the senate, what they truly believe, than donald trump. they were just too scared to say it when the light were turned on in the senate, when the cameras were on, when the microphones could pick up their voice and broadcast it. >> everything he was saying was so basic and fact-based, but for some reason given the climate it was stunning to hear. conservative writer windsor mann writes, romney did the unthinkable. he told the truth about a man

who never tells it on purpose at the 2016 republican national convention ted cruz implored republicans to vote their conscience. that is what romney did, and what has made him a heretic in his party. romney voted to convict the president. his fellow republicans voted to convict themselves. and joe mentioned people wehner who writes for "the atlantic," "this also needs to be said. romney the views are not owl that rare among his republican colleague whose know in their hearts that what trump did was inexcusable and indefensible. the crossing of the once unthinkable moral and ethical red line. had a democratic president done the same, it would easily have cleared their bar for impeachment and removal from office. what is rare, however, is romney's courage. he acted honorably and he acted alone." willie? >> robert gibbs, you guys ran

very hard, the obama campaign ran very hard against mitt romney in 2012. a lot of progressives yesterday suddenly found their affection and respect for mitt romney. what was your reaction, though, as you lived to that speech? >> i think really struck and mark's reporting talks about this. you're really struck how much he clearly struggled with this. you're profoundly struck how he is guided by his faith, and how he spoke about that, and you can just, both see and hear the emotion in delivering this speech and understanding the gravity of what he's doing. it was a remarkable moment in a political trial that has not had that many remarkable moments. this played out very quickly. it was done with the speed that nobody thought would happen, and there at the end, it didn't change the outcome, but it absolutely changed the tone, the tenor of what the senate left us

with, and we're really struck by who mitt romney became yesterday. >> all right. robert gibbs, mark leibovich, thank you both for being on the show this morning. what an incredible news day. still ahead, donald trump hosted "apprentice" more than a decade and knows how television works. probably won't be happy to hear how many people watched, in this case, didn't watch the state of the union address. bad ratings. >> really bad ratings. plummeted 20%. >> yeah. boring. >> and just like "the apprentice," ratings kept getting worse every single year. >> all right. and as we go to break, a peek at the latest issue of "time" magazine. the cover story looking at china's coronavirus, outbreak, and how it presents a new threat to chinese president xi jinping. talk about that and much more next on "morning joe."

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welcome back to "morning joe." it is 49 past the hour.

joining us now, president of the council on foreign relations and author of book "a world in disarray" richard haass. also with us, editing chief. good to have you both with us this morning, and talk about the president's state of the union address and policy and what he said and more pontly what when did he not say. >> a victory lap on iran, on isis and trade. he didn't say, interesting. any other aspect of u.s./china relations essentially ignored. north korea figured prominently a year ago in the state of the union not uttered this time around. he talked about trees, not climate change and russia and ukraine. last i check, still a war going on there. a selective state of the world

inside the state of the union. the most interesting thing going forward also the one thing he did mention, afghanistan. if i were an oddsmaker i wouldy think the odds you're going to see further troop reductions unconditionally out of afghanistan, i think the prewants to go into the election with a talking point that not only did he get american forces out of the middle east but also got american forces out of afghanistan. >> driven by the same instinct that barack obama had getting forces out of iraq quickly. before his re-election campaign. that didn't actually turn out very well. talk about middle east peace plan, richard. it was talked about a week ago. the president had a press conference with benjamin netanyahu. is there any chance that any part of this peace plan will ever be implemented? >> not as a peace plan and not as a negotiation. i think the danger is, though, chunks of it could be implemented unilaterally by israel. it doesn't become a peace plan. it backs a reality.

and that's the danger and already we're beginning to see signs of pushback. reading it this morning, striking to me, how many flash points are emerging. cars running over soldiers in jerusalem. three palestinians killed in the west bank. israel going deep into syria to attack missile sites there. israel going into gaza to attack hamas. again, you've got this quote/unquote plan coming out of washington which bears almost no relationship to the challenges in the region, but to come back to where you began. no. this is a political plan. it is not a peace plan. >> zanny, the "economist" has a cover on the economy. how bad is it? >> pretty bad. pretty bad in china and the big question is, a., how far does it go beyond china and, b. what is the impact what's happening in china? i'm pretty struck.

sent the week here in the u.s. how little attention is focused on this. how the market are shrugging this off now. we really don't know yet. the prism through which many people are looking at, this is the prism of sars, the virus that hit china and that part of the world in 2002-2003. china is very different now. to give you a couple numbers. china's much, much more connected to the world. before he started banning flights, 200,000 people left china. okay? in to china every day. a huge number of people and also 16% of the world economy compared to 4% then. we'll see much more effect and i think we are far from seeing this peaking in china and all the factories closed after the new year for a week or so, could be several weeks. several weeks even a couple months, hit to the world's economy will be pretty hard and people will get worried particularly if it spreads a lot more outside of china. >> and people aren't sure what to believe in terms of numbers coming out of china. not a record of boeing exactly

transparent. >> the numbers put out are way, way, way low. could be a factor of 10, a factor of 25. the biggest question, how severe is it? to the extent it is lethal, is it because the virus is that lethal or the lack of access to adequate hydration, to masks, what have you? so the answers we don't know. the other thing i would say, we don't know everything about the disease, or the economic hit. zanny is spot-on. more disruptive. supply chains, the political hit in china. the most interesting conversation to me is what implications will this have for xi jing pipingjinping. you can't say, not on my watch. this is on his watch, like it or

not, the economy is sluggish. >> could sign a phobia rising certainly in this country and if you have people pull out foreigners from china, and you have that for several weeks a couple of mosnths you'll see people really, really worrying what's happening in china and standing back. a lot more to come. >> and extraordinary moment among many in the state of the union address, venezuelan president, the president pointing to him during it's speech and inviting him to the white house. >> he's in a gallery. not in venezuela. meanwhile, the government is stronger. "new york times" ran an interesting story a couple days ago. the regime is beginning to loosen up selectively. a degree of support from the regime from particularly the upper classes. we can start guido. meanwhile, 400 refugees

overwhelming the naked. i don i don't see he goes to the streets and has real power in venezuela. >> and not doing well in the gallery of congress. harder to see that. one of those things that, a good photo op in d.c., but i'm not sure really doing much for the people of venezuela. >> zanny minton, bet os, richard haass, thank you for going around the world with us. still ahead, mitt romney tells one 6 our next guests his vote to remove the president was the most difficult decision he's ever had to make. "the atlantic" editor joins us with more from the republican. and plus pete buttigieg and bernie sanders locked in a virtual tie in iowa. buttigieg has a slight edge, but with 3% of the vote still unreported it is too close to call. it's too close to call him the winner, but we shall see.

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we not only have to beat trump to get everything passed we're talking about, all progressive proposals that are being made, we need a nominee who can help democrats up and down the ticket. help them win in the ballot. bring back the united states senate. i've done that in 2018. die that. i went out and did 24 states for 65 candidates. but if senator sanders is the nominee for the party, every democrat in america up and down the ballot, blue, red, purple states, an easy districts, competitive ones, every democrat will have to carry the label senator sanders chose for himself. chosen for himself. he calls -- i don't criticize him. he calls himself a democratic socialist. we've already seen what donald trump is going to do with that. >> i have great respect for mayor pete and his service to this nation, but i do believe

it's a risk to be just straight up with you, for this party to nominate someone who's never hil and office higher than mayor of indiana. i do believe it's a risk. he has enormous potential but i think we need a president that can bring us together a leader that can unite the party and unite the country. >> welcome back to "morning joe." it is thursday, february 6th. still with joe, willie and me we have msnbc contributor mike barnicle. republican strategist and msnbc political analyst susan del percio, and joining the conversation, politics and journalism professor at morgan state university, politics editor at root and msnbc political contributor jason johnson, and in manchester, new hampshire, msnbc national affairs analyst co-host of showtime's "the circus" and editor-in-chief of the recount. >> start with you. biden going after buttigieg and

bernie. of course, i say going after. it's all -- this year it's all been very mild between democrats. and yet -- >> right. >> -- it hasn't especially, even the mild attacks have not seemed to land, and have not seemed to help the candidates attacking others. what do you make of joe biden's attacks on the other candidates yesterday? will it have an impact? and do you sense desperation from either the warren or the biden camps? >> so, joe, i think that thing that happened yesterday, attacks, as you say, a maybe too strong a word by the standards of this campaign. that's an attack joe biden launched. i think he's trying to bring focus on this electability argument that the risks as he said of the party nominating either of the two current leaders, bernie sanders or pete buttigieg on the left and moderate lane, those are a clear reflection of one thing. the biden campaign, though they

didn't get the full weight of the media crashing down on them as they would have if their fourth-place finish was reported on the night of iowa, everyone in politics understands how badly joe biden did in iowa. how badly his operation performed and what it means for him to come into new hampshire after having been the front-runner nationally. >> and you -- >> and hadn't in iowa. >> talk fast. i want to cut you off talking how badly he did. throwing that out. joe biden did horribly with organization, with this, with that, the other, within iowa. he was vice president for eight years. he's been in this sport since 1974. he's been in -- like, this has been his calling since being a young man. how did his team perform so badly on the ground after decades of political experience? >> well, obviously, joe i think we've had this conversation many

times over the course of the year. i for a year said i thought iowa was joe biden's achilles' heel and polling, at various places throughout the year, towards the end, except for selzer's polls showed him leading with bernie sanders. you remember joe biden's perform innocence iowa, 2008. got 1%, 2% and had to drop out of the race the next day. it's always been a weak spot for him and i don't think that unlike the other three candidates, particularly sanders and buttigieg, and elizabeth warren to a large extent, they did not invest in iowa on the ground in the way that those other candidates did. they have had money problems all throughout 2019. you can't underestimate the extent to which their financial troubles on the biden campaign, the underperformance of joe biden as a fund-raiser has had an affect on everything else he's tried to do. the notion of him being the most electable on a national level is true. he's got the broadest, among the

democrats, the broadest, most diverse base of support, but the idea that the biden campaign is well set to compete across the nation in 50 states, when you understand how weak they've been financially, and particularly now how weak they are financially, staring at this new hampshire contest, knowinging ae underperformance in iowa, they're looking at that in new hampshire. fully aware, to answer your question, joe biden doesn't perform extremely well, doesn't come in second, as worst, second to bernie sanders, the wheelless come off the wagon pretty quickly. they know that. that thing yesterday, attacking sanders and buttigieg was one side of it, and joe biden's performance last night in the cnn town hall a long and extraordinary answer, coping with stuttering as child is another part of it. trying to dig deep recognizing the whole thing is on the line for them. >> late developments from monday's iowa democratic

caucuses. this morning with 97% of precincts reporting pete buttigieg and senator bernie sanders are in a near tie. sanders is ahead in the raw vote totals for both stages of the caucus but buttigieg is ahead by less than a quarter of a point in the percentage that determines how many national delegates each candidate receives. senator elizabeth warren remains in third place followed by former vice president joe biden in fourth. willie? >> so jason johnson, i'm no steve kornacki and won't attempt to explain could still happen but one satellite county, comes in above a certain turnout bernie sanders could claim the state equivalence as well as popular vote and get a sweeping win, but pete buttigieg either way did well and moves into new hampshire. going back to the joe biden question. he will finish fourth in iowa. this new tracking polling we have out of new hampshire shows him settled in at third or fourth there and not really that

close, quite frankly, to where bernie sanders is or even really to where pete buttigieg s. right. >> what does joe biden have to do to maintain the firewall people talked about for months and his campaign talks about in south carolina? he said let us survive iowa, survive new hampshire. just have to get to south carolina and the race really starts for us. how is that argument looking this morning? >> wellie, looks fine, because we don't have any indicator of a change in polling not just in south carolina but nevada where the vice president seems to think he's doing well. again, the polls in those states are pretty old. south carolina's last month. haven't gotten early polling in nevada. and internals for joe biden must not be looking great for them to be as nervous as they are. thinking this is very important coming out of iowa. say it very, very candid. if democrats care about winning in the fall, if this ends up

being a contest between bernie sanders and mayor pete, people need to probably rally around bernie sanders, because mayor pete's ability to achieve his ability to actually expand the voters base outside of iowa doesn't look good. the guy is barely at double digits in almost any other state. yes a bump in new hampshire but about to get rolled in nevada. going to get rolled in south carolina and then going to be going up against an expanded field of people like mike bloomberg and steyer when we get to super tuesday. if democrats care about electability as opposed to voting their heart they need to think about these top two candidates and which can expand the base. >> and in the town hall, joe biden answered a question about stuttering. here's the answer he gave. >> what i say to anybody, anybody out there and any of the people you work with, young people who stutter, give you my phone number. not a joke, and they can call me. i'll give ayou a private number

because it's really important, they know, they want to say, you really did stutter? i still occasionally, when i find myself really tired c-catch myself doing something like that. it has something to do with going back a long time i think part of it is confidence and what circumstances you've faced. i know i'm talking too long about this but i feel desperately, i feel strongly about this. we just have to reach out a little bit more for people, man. we don't do it enough. we got to heal this country. >> mike, a lot of talk joe biden has to have a human moment in new hampshire like hillary clinton did. >> every day. >> he has them every day. on a nationally broadcast town hall. that's what he's doing on the campaign trail. >> willie, looking at it right now and we don't want to declare his candidacy over, certainly

the nots. >> >> no, no. >> announced candidacy should have taken the field not at the vice president of the united states. that's the thing about him. he is the former vice president of the united states. just taken the field as joe biden. who he is in essence. the other thing ought to have done in retrospect and failed to do it because urged to do it, take on the hunter biden questions head-on. donald trump's regime injected corruption into the blood stream to the point people ask about it. it's taken an effect, joe. i got to tell you. >> yeah. well, you know, i'm not so sure of that and i also -- i just -- i'll repeat tom brokaw's warning to us in 2008, when everybody declared that barack obama was going to beat hillary in new

hampshire by double digits. you know, john heilemann, go through the history of iowa and start in 1980. ronald reagan, widely seen as the guy who's going to run away with the race. beaten by an unknown. to most republicans, george h.w. bush. and, of course, bush talked about his big mo. new hampshire saved reagan in '80. of course, you know the rest of that story. 1988 when it was george h.w. bush supposed to sweep through iowa. he got beat there. came in third place behind pat robertson and bob dole. goes to new hampshire. everybody's saying this guy -- again, another vice president, this guy is beaten. he's battered. no way he can win. he wins in new hampshire and makes a vow that night, i will not forget what you have done for me here. i think dukakis came in third place, in the iowa caucuses as well, in '88.

and you can just keep, just keep going through it. again, we go to 2008 and saw what happened with barack obama, winning there, and people saying that hillary was finished in new hampshire. it ain't over until it's over. biden does still have a shot at this, but, of course, the odds seem to be lengthening by the day with these polls. >> well, look, i think what it tells you is, joe, in this hot house cauldron here in new hampshire, the fabled eight days from iowa to new hampshire, joe biden has his candidacy on the line. it's not by any means over for joe biden. it's up to him. the campaign's now in his hands. i think mike's right. i've seen hem every single day, i've been with joe biden, seen him almost every day of this calendar year on the campaign trail. almost every day. he has a human moment. the humidity and empathy are not missing from joe biden's campaign. he shows it everywhere. the problem was in iowa every

time he was showing that empathy in a room filled with 75 people and pete buttigieg in a room filled with 750. that's a failure of the campaign, ultimately the campaign is a reflection of the candidate, but it's not that joe biden -- joe biden's is performs like joe biden right now. the problem is, there's a certain lack of energy and then it raises this other question. jason and others are, raised this point. people are deeply concerned, seeing donald trump's strength this week in the polling, the state of the union, getting acquitted yesterday. democrats are deeply concerned who's going to be the person to take on trump? i think there's not a democrat i know in professionally or just out in the world who doesn't look at sanders and buttigieg and say, are these really the guys we want? so that's what biden is highlighting on the campaign trail. trying to highlight they, say, guys, really? take a look at these two. the question, is the answer, if those two guys aren't the answer, democrats are uncomfortable with them is joe biden really the answer?

that's what he has to show here somehow in new hampshire. not that he can be human or empathic but these the guy who the best qualified, best standing and best a little to stand up and beat donald trump. i'm not sure a lot of voters are convinced of that right now. >> mika, if your message is, i can win. >> yeah. >> then you've got to win. it's not, you got to be empathetic. reach out to people in way nobody else is. if your calling card is "vote for me" joe beats trump. if that's your calling card, you got to prove it. if you're coming in third and fourth place in iowa and new hampshire, races that the political world's been focused on for well over a year. >> uh-huh. >> it's a very bad sign. yes, joe biden needs to finish in second place at least in new hampshire. >> at least. >> and he has to win in south carolina. or there's just no coming back. >> so the other big story we're

covering this morning. impeachment. the president's acquittal. most importantly, mitt romney's historic vote against his party and really letting the facts guide his decision. take a listen. >> as a senator juror, i swore an oath before god to exercise impartial justice. i am profoundly religious. my faith is at the heart of who i am. i take an oath before god as enormously consequential. i knew from the outset that being tasked with judging the president, leader of my own party, would be the most difficult decision i have ever faced. i was not wrong. >> the verdict is ours to render

under our constitution that people will judge us for how well and faithfully we fulfill our duty. the grave question the constitution tasked senators to answer is whether the president committed an act so extreme and egregious that it rises to the level of a high crime and misdemeanor. yes, he did. the president asked a foreign government to investigate his political rival. the president withheld vital military funds from that government to press it to do so. the president delayed funds for an american ally at war with russian invaders. the president's purpose was personal and political. accordingly, the president is guilty of an appalling abuse of public trust. i acknowledge that my verdict will not remove the president from office. the results of this senate court will, in fact, be appealed to a higher court, the judgment of the american people.

voters will make the final decision just as the president's lawyers have implored. my vote will likely be in the minority in the senate, but irrespective of these things, with my vote i will tell my children and their children that i did nigh dmy duty to the best ability believing that my country expected it of me. i will only be one name among many. no more, no less, to future generations of americans who look at the record of this trial and will note merely i was among the senators who determined that what the president did was wrong. grievously wrong. we are all footnotes at best ins annals of history, but in the most powerful nation on earth, the nation conceived in liberty and justice, that distinction is enough for any citizen. >> so joining us now, staff writer at the "atlantic" a feature story for the new issue

on the 2020 disinformation war, and we'll get to that in just a moment. first, you interviewed mitt romney yesterday on how the senator decided that trump is guilty. you know, to hear him say it, it sounds so basic, yet this was so difficult, and he really spelled out in his speech why this is probably the worst thing you could do as president, and yet he's getting punished for this. did he tell you a little bit about how he got here? >> yeah. it's interesting. actually i spoke to him the day before yesterday. the interview embargoed. and as we were talking, i was struck by how personally he was kind of treating this decision. it's always been true that he's taken the impeachment process a little more seriously than probably a lot of his republican colleagues who saw this all as kind of a partisan food fight. he saw it as a slum constitutional duty and has from

day one and why he wanted to hear from witnesses. it's why he wasn't constantly going on cable news weighing in on each development, but when i talked to him the other day, one thing he said was that this was kind of a very personal and almost spiritual process for him. he talked about how he would pray for wisdom and guidance throughout the process. how he relied on a favorite passage of mormon scripture his father taught him throughout the process, and ultimately it was a decision based on how he thought history would treat this moment and treat this decision of his and this vote of his, and he was bracing for the partisan blowback and told me, i know that the president and his allies are going to come after me and that could last a long time and could impede my ability to legislate but i feel like this is the right thing to do. >> it was so obvious yesterday when mitt romney gave that speech he was thinking of his father, he was thinking of his faith. he was thinking of his family.

also, i found him to be so striking, that he kept talking about the oath that he made before god, which all the other senators did as well, but we heard at the beginning of the process these senators, like mitch mcconnell and lindsey graham making a mockery of their vow before god, by saying i'm not going to be a fair juror. mitt romney actually took not only his duty as a united states senator and his duty to the constitution personally, he took h oath before god personally and talk about how that came out yesterday. >> when we spoke, he said, i actually share his mormon faith and one of the reasons he felt comfortable opening up about it. he said you're a religious person. so am i. taking an oath before god is not something i take lightly. not just a de facto, pro forma thing. this is something serious.

so when he thought about it that way, you know, he said that he quote add mormon hymn, to me which he also has talked about elsewhere, but he said, there's a hymn, i think also a protestant hymn that says do what is right let the consequence follow. he said, you know i have determined my conscience has told me that this is the right thing, and you know, there are going to be consequences, but if i'm taking an oath brn gefore gi can't just do the most self-interesting partisan thing, what that is. >> it's willie. interested to hear what mitt romney said about his fellow senators, republicans in the caucus with him, the 52 who did not vote with him? it caught my eye the way they reacted to his news yesterday. by and large, for the most part, they said i disagree with mitt romney's decision here. i think it's the wrong decision. i don't think the president should be thrown out of office and overturn the election and everything else they said but i respect mitt romney. even leader mcconnell given the

opportunity to say something and he said, no. we don't have dog houses. he's not going in the dog house. we're on to the next vote. did he lobby at all the other senators? did he explain his ration natural and try to win them over or just about him and his vote? >> so i know that he lobbied pretty aggressively to hear from john bolton earlier in the process. he wanted witnesses. he wanted to hear from bolton. he actually told me part of the reason he thought bolton might actually say something that gave enough reasonable doubt to let him off the hook. he admitted that to me and also thought it was important context. in the end, i think he kept his decision closely guarded. one reason we know, it didn't leak. everyone was surprised when he gave that speech yesterday. and my sense when i went and met with him in his office was that there were not that many people, he gave a couple embargoed interviews and close staffers

knew but i don't think many knew what he would ultimately do and knew he wouldn't win over many republican senators to his point of view. >> given the political culture that surrounds us, sadly, mitch's speech, floor speech, came across as jarring to a lot of people. they hadn't seen anything like this, in this spectacle that we have witnessed now nearly three years. my sense of it knowing him is that it was driven by something that's always been there, that is there within him and i'd like you to speak to it. his conscience. >> right. funny. we're so conditioned to assume that politicians are just going to do whatever is in their partisan self-interest, and that when somebody does something against their self-interest out of conscience on principle it's kind of shocking. in his case, it's important. joe mentioned his father. it's importance context to understand that george romney is, you know, a giant in mitt

romney's mind. he looms over his entire career, his entire life. george romney famously stood apart from much of his party in opposing barry goldwater over civil rights. he was kind of seen as this, you know, disdesident wenithin the republican party of his time. i hi miami romney wanted to do the same, that principle over party thing. throughout his career, accused of opportunism. flip-floppi flip-flopping. wanting to the president and got pretty close and you make a lot of compromises trying to become president. now this is almost kind of, he's in the twilight of his career. liberated in a way i've never seen him and i think he was thinking about his father's legacy as he made this decision and his own legacy and how he could continue that. >> hey, it's susan del percio.

one thing we heard the closing arguments from the house managers was you know he will do this again. and now i want to pivot to your piece on the disinformation wars of 2020. where the president campaign is actively pursuing a huge disinformation campaign for 2020. going out there and basically spreading lies. how is that put together? >> yeah. i think we actually saw a good example of this and awrite about it in the feature, in the impeachment battle. part of the process reporting the story i create add facebook account, a new account kind of fake persona and just subscribed to the trump campaign and various associated accounts. i watched that feed over the course of many weeks. it was kind of jarring how much dishonesty and propaganda there was. every politician, every president running for re-election tries to leverage

incumbency to a certain extent to win re-election. certainly the president is doing that, but this president has shown a willingness both to lie, to spread distortions and propaganda and disinformation in a way that is pretty unprecedented and a way to leverage the federal government and his powers in a way past presidents would have balked at. i do think, you know, moving forward we're going to -- this -- the impeachment battle is over. this chapter is over, but i would keep a close eye on how this president tries to leverage incumbency in kind of dramatic new ways we're not used to as he fights for re-election. >> thank you very much. we'll be reading your pieces in the new issue of "the atlantic." coming up, how yesterday's impeachment vote wasn't just about the president's fate. but also the senate's. ben wittes joins us with that, next on "morning joe."

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so you're saying it's not a perfect call and perhaps you wouldn't go about the same thing, if it were you in the same shoes, wish he hadn't said bidens. do you think president trump should be a bit more contrite about the call even though clearly you don't think it rises to the level of impeachable or removable? should he be apologetic, chastened in anyway. >> the president will not be apologetic. >> that's true. >> i think he thinks it was a perfect call. i think he actually believes that. >> joining us now, nbc news and msnbc law analyst and editor-in-chief of "law fair"

ben mi benjamin wittes. his latest article, starts with, it's not an impeachable offense for the president of united states to condition aid to a foreign government on delivery of personal favors. abuse of power is not an impeachable offense. a dispute over facts is not reason to hear evidence. it, too, is a reason to acquit. they defy logic. why are they dangerous? >> they're dangerous because they defy logic, and my co-author and i, a lot of the debate about this is a debate about what the president did. right? how the senate evaluates what the president did, but there's also a set of institutional statements that the senate is making when it votes to acquit somebody without hearing evidence. right? and so what we tried to do was

to figure out in as precise a way as we could that some some of it is a little backhanded, but can we identify what the statements are that the senate is making here? you know, when you just lay them out, they're pretty upsetting. you know? they're statements that the president can do all kinds of things, and we don't need to know the facts to evaluate them. >> so, ben, there are 23 presidents you lay out that will be dangerous precedents for this constitutional republic going forward. what are the one or two you find most disturbing that may cause the most chaos in the coming years? >> the one that bothers me the most, and i think it applies only when the president's party is the same as the majority of the senate's party. the one that bothers me the most is the idea that in the face of

a dispute over facts, you don't try to learn the facts. you just acquit on that basis. that really is a statement of partisanship over everything. it's a statement that it doesn't matter what our guy does. he's our guy. and it's a statement of abdication of the senate's independent oversight function as a separate branch of government, and affiliation on a purely partisan basis with misconduct by the executive branch. i think that statement is, know, genuinely different from the statements that prior congress' have made about presidents of their own party, and i think it will have a very long tale. >> starts to not look like america, when you put it all together. jason johnson has a question. jason? >> well, so, i'd like to continue with this idea, almost

what mika said of not looking like america. what do you think this acquittal has done to the sort of overall conversation about the legitimaty of the senate? we've talked about the fact large parts of the senate are actually made up of a smaller population of people. has that many people really questioned the value of the senate, the legitimacy and representative nature of the senate jt senate? if 18%, are we really getting a reflection of america anymore? >> this is a really important question. the senate has always been as a, you know, since the founding, as a numerical and formal matter, you know, anti-majoritarian. that is, the founding virginia's is biggest state, delaware and rhode island are tiny, and the, you know, virginia gets no more senators than they do. that problem has been accentuated greatly. the difference between wyoming

and california is immense. right? and the only argument you can make for this, i think, is that the senate brings maybe a very high quality of deliberation relative to the house of representatives, and to say those words in the face of these propositions that we've tried to outline is laughable. the senate didn't deliberate at all. it didn't deliberate a kindergarten class that gets together around circle time to discuss what to have for snack. is deliberating more in meaningful terms than the united states senate did, and so the question is, what value -- what's the value proposition in an age where of no deliberation for an institution that is as democratically troubling as the united states senate? and i don't think that's an easy question to answer. >> and ben, in terms of lasting

and potential lethal danger to the republic, the way the republicans govern, where would you rank an event that we saw happen repeatedly over the past nine or ten months, the refusal of the executive to reply, respond, react to subpoenas? >> so i would rank the executive's behavior relatively high in that regard, but what i regard as a bigger problem is the unwillingness of the legislature to respond aggressively to that. so the -- the most -- the ultimate way that the legislature retains the power to gouge information out of an unwilling executive is the threat of some kind of retaliation. the ultimate retaliation is impeachment, and that's why

article ii of the impeachment articles was an important statement by the house. the senate did not back that. but there are other ways the senate could back the ability of the house to get information from the president. one of them would be to hold up some budgetary item. hold up nominees. right? but if you don't do any of that, and the senate isn't willing to do any of it, you effectively give the executive permission to behave the way that it did. >> benjamin wittes, thank you very much for being with us this morning. and still ahead -- it looks like january was a good month for bernie sanders. his campaign raked in more money than any of his rivals. we're going to dig into the numbers and where everything stands in the race for the presidency, next on "morning joe." as a struggling actor,

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♪ welcome back to "morning joe" as we talk about the final results which we don't have complete yet, believe it or not,

from iowa. waiting for one precinct and we'll finally have those, but it looks like bernie sanders and pete buttigieg will finish one-two, in some form. consider the numbers rolling into new hampshire where you are, new data from the sanders campaign, john heilemann. that they raised $25 million in january alone. which is more than biden or buttigieg or warren raised in the third quarter of the entire third quarter of 2019. they've got $25 million. 1.3 million donations from 56,000 different people and announcing now, john, they're going to buy $5.5 million worth of ads in the super tuesday states with that money. >> right. yeah. willie, one of the reasons why bernie sanders will be a very formidable front-runner, i think, coming out of new hampshire and for the long haul. he's built a low dollar machine

built better than anybody in the race. based on 2016 where he raise add ton of dough and able to fight to the finish with hillary clinton. it's more fou powerful now than then. and it's the case that pete buttigieg and elizabeth warren have also built solid fund-raising operations. three well-financed candidates going forward. obviously mike bloomberg is waiting down the line. the best financially, the most financially, the most financial wherewithal than all of them. that's a lot of money for bernie sanders. back in january 2008 after winning the caucuses, barack obama raced $55 million in february of 2008. putting bernie's numbers in perspective, they're really strong. they're not quite obama level but really strong and very, very strong relative to the rest of this democratic field. >> right. that's right. jason when we look what's happening now in the money run, seems the only two people who

will really be competitive besides mike bloomberg because we know he already is, going into super tuesday will be pete buttigieg and bernie sanders. they'll both probably have, you know, anywhere from $25 million to $50 million on hand. >> right. >> where do you suggest, especially pete buttigieg, who will come out weaker probably in south carolina and nevada than he does now, where does he spend that money in super tuesday? >> if he's smart, he needs to spend a lot of money in california. california's going to be the big fries. california's going to be the state tom steyer is spending a little of money. mike bloomberg is spending a lot of money and mayor pete can't afford to end up fourth, fifth or sixth place in california. that's where i would marshal my forces. i sort of said this before. if this race comes down to money, and if it comes down to a bernie sanders versus mayor pete, this is not much of a competition. bernie sanders will lap the field with mayor pete. the real question is going to

be, how much of the money that these campaigns are raising is actually going to translate into votes? look at elizabeth warren. she has largest number of donors but not raising as much as bernie sanders. we'll see a very interesting -- mayor pete always good as raising money overall. we'll see very soon the amount of money raised always translates into votes. really, look at bernie sanders, he has excellent fund-raising but it didn't increase turnout in iowa. didn't do better than before. all of this money may not result in more people voting for you. >> all right. john heilemann, thank you so much for being on this morning. still ahead, talking about mitt romney's courageous vote to convict the president. but there's another senator who also took a big risk with more immediate consequences. we'll tell you who that is ahead on "morning joe." through the at&t network, edge-to-edge intelligence gives you the power to see every corner of your growing business.

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candidates and my colleagues on both sides of the aisle, i fear that moral courage, country before party, is a rare commodity these days. we can write about it, talk about it in speeches and in the media, but it is harder to put into action when political careers may be on the line. accordingly, i will vote to convict the president on both articles of impeachment. >> jason johnson, talk about a political career on the line. the senator from alabama definitely made that decision. >> mika, this is a profile in courage. this is a profile in courage because doug jones won his seat under the slimmest of margins under really, really unique circumstances and he very likely could lose. he might have lost the seat anyway, but he very likely could lose the seat to actually remove donald trump. and that's the kind of thing i think people need to be

praising. it's important. it's indicative of the fact that even when people are facing serious political consequences, even when they know that their position could actually be on the line, that he will have little or no political future at a federal level, he still decided to do the right thing. the bar for what is considered right from our political leaders has been dropped so far because of this administration that we sometimes confuse acts of common sense conscience with acts of actual courage. this was an act of courage. what mitt romney did was merely an act of conscience. >> let's go down this list. doug jones, democrat in the state that went plus 28 for donald trump in 2016. joe manchin voted to convict in a state that was plus 42 for donald trump. john tester in a state that was plus 21. kirsten cinema plus three in arizona but she has some re-election concerns there. as jason suggests, we should not

ignore those four acts of political courage there. >> no, again, but they voted with their party which is what typically happens. >> it could cost them their jobs. >> that's why they were elected. that's why it's so disappointing when you look at the republican side as many people did not do their job. so, yes, re-elections out there on both sides of the aisle. i think the fact that you had mitt romney go against his party and do it in such a way is an act of courage. how he came to that conclusion based on his faith and conscience is valid but it doesn't take away the courage from it. >> look, there's a loose definition of courage out there and the definition is the ability to put fear, your own personal fear, in the back seat for a while, for a minute, for an hour, for a day, whatever. all of them exhibited courage in their votes. i would submit that mitt romney's was a symbol of courage, but doug jones's speech was basically a kiss your seat

good-bye speech coming from alabama, and he did it. >> he did it, but let's not forget, it was pretty -- he wasn't looking at great re-election choices to begin with, which doesn't take away from what he did at all. i give him a lot of credit for doing that and being strong on it but, again, whereas you can say mitt romney probably knows he's going to get re-elected, doug jones probably wasn't going to get re-elected. we'll have more on this ahead plus we don't still have a clear winner out of iowa. steve kornacki will help break down what's going on and why we don't have the full results from monday night's caucus there. there are several big stories unfolding overseas today from that deadly virus in china from the fallout from brexit. "morning joe" will be right back. ght back you try hard, you eat right... mostly. you make time... when you can. but sometimes life gets in the way, and that stubborn fat just won't go away.

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i've got broad enough shoulders to be able to weather personal changes in my career, political or otherwise, but what i don't have is the capacity to ignore my conscience. i don't have the capacity to say what was wrong was not wrong. what the president did was grievously wrong. >> it was grievously wrong and yet the president got away with it. good morning and welcome to "morning joe." it is thursday, february 6th. along with joe, willie and me we have msnbc contributor mike

barnacle. republican strategist and msnbc political strategist susan delpercio and mark lebovich is with us and gibby. the gibbster. >> the music, that's great. >> we've got it. >> it's good to see you. >> yes. willie, very few people knew when he was running around the country campaigning for barack obama that he was like the fifth gibbs brother. >> i had completely forgotten about that. as robert sat there and the music came on i could see the regret wash over his face that he had decided to return at long last to "morning joe." >> i missed you guys. >> what a terrible, terrible mistake. we miss you, too. there's a lot to talk about this morning, mika. >> yes. >> you have mitt romney, the

courage he showed. >> uh-huh. >> there were quite a few democrats that showed courage. three or four we'll be talking about. >> absolutely. >> whose political lives were on the line. they chose to do what they believed was right, not what would be popular back in their state. you, of course, have the president being acquitted but he becomes the first president in the history of this republic, willie, the first president to have a member of his own party vote to remove him from office and what an extraordinary day yesterday ended up being in washington, d.c. plus, oh, yeah, they're still counting ballots in iowa. >> i ran into steve kornacki in the elevator. boy, does he have a story to tell us. this is getting crazy and bernie sanders could take the popular vote and could edge ahead here also in the delegates. we'll get to mitt romney's historic vote and a lot to talk

about there. late developments in iowa's democratic caucuses. results from monday night's votes still trickling in. we are up to 97% of precincts reporting. pete buttigieg and bernie sanders are in a tie. let's bring up steve kornacki. went home, slept for about 45 minutes, back this morning and manning his post at the big board. steve, where are we right now? >> i was here a little after midnight and we got a massive change here in iowa. you can see what it looks like. you just put it up there. .2 of 1% separating bernie sanders and pete buttigieg. let me show you what happened and why there is a chance that sanders is going to overtake sanders. the key is this number under 26.2. if you can read that, 550 for buttigieg and 546 for bernie sanders. what this is, this is the unit of measurement that they use in iowa to determine the winner, to determine the national convention delegates.

it is called the state delegate equivalent. the state delegate equivalent. sorry to be so arcane but this is important. this is how the winner will be decided. the margin is four state delegate equivalents. there are not many that are left up for grabs in iowa. the reason why this got so close, the reason why sanders has a chance is not to do with anything that happened on this map we've been showing you for three days, it has to do with, you remember these, the satellite caucuses. so on caucus day, on monday before everybody showed up at night for the regularly scheduled caucuses they agreed in iowa to hold meetings for folks who had to work at night, who had limitations that didn't allow them to get to their normal local weekend caucuses. they split them out by four congressional districts in iowa. 4, 3, 2, 1. it looks like this. they waited until the very end to release the results. check out what's happened in three of them. we're missing one result. that's going to be key.

check out what happened in three of them. this is the fourth congressional district. bernie sanders got 75%. pete buttigieg got 5%. check out what happened in the third congressional district. this is des moines. check this out. 69% sanders. you've got to go all the way down here to find buttigieg at 1%. check out what has happened in the second congressional district. the iowa city college one. more support for warren. 53% for sanders. you have to go past klobuchar, yang, biden, oh, there he is, there's pete buttigieg. you can see what this adds up to. if you pretent roughly -- this is my approximation of iowa. these are the four congressional districts. sanders gained on buttigieg three here in the fourth, 12 here in the third congressional district and 5 in the second congressional district. he gained 20 state delegate equivalents from these congressional districts.

as i said, there is one left. the first congressional district, sort of the northeast part of the state. we're expecting to get that sometime today, hopefully sometime this morning. if -- if the pattern we see holding in these other congressional districts, sanders running away with it, buttigeg not registering. if that holds, that is the possibility for bernie sanders to net another load of state delegates here that would put him over the top. i can tell you, it really is coming down to -- we always say the cliche, it comes down to turnout. the number of state delegates that will be up for grabs in the first congressional district satellite caucus depends on how many turned out to vote. if it is 601 or more, it's going to be worth about 11 state delegate equivalents. if it is 600or less it's going to be worth 5.6. if it's 11, i think sanders can get over buttigieg statewide and can build up a big enough lead right there because there are

some outstanding precincts here in iowa that can come in. buttigieg can pick up a little bit. if you get the 601 plus turnout, i think buttigieg can get that. if it's 600or less it is much dd dicier for him. their best guess is that number is going to be right around 600. >> wow. so just to recap. if it hits that 601, bernie sanders takes the delegates. the delegate equivalents which is how we measure a winner. already they can claim victory based on the vote total. that's the first time we see that this year. i don't want to jump too far ahead, steve. is it fair to say these results will be contested either way based on what happens in a couple of hours with that one outstanding satellite caucus area? >> yeah. you can imagine if this thing ends up -- it's going to be tight no matter what. you've probably seen if you're following this online. over here in this precinct i saw

this happen. over here in this precinct here's a picture of what's happening. the campaigns have an opportunity to lodge challenges, to lodge complaints. i believe they have to do that by friday. i believe then there is a period of 48 hours that the state party has to address it. there's the possibility there that where this thing lands there's a couple more days there for looking into it. you're right, to put the number up. when you say sanders and the popular vote, this has continued to grow. it is essentially 6,000. the folks who showed up, the advantage has grown to 4.6,000. the question is apparently he's going to finish on top. the state delegate equivalent, the national convention delegates, does he also catch buttigieg there. wow, that is a barn burner? is that what you call it? i guess. >> definitely. >> all right. >> thank you so much, steve. >> great job. >> one of my pet peeves the last

night, mika, since this has been going on is people have been saying, look at the vote total as well. maybe we measure it by that. maybe we measure it by -- no, no, it's actually that first round, it's like the first half of a football game. >> exactly. >> the rules are about delegates and i think at this point it's so close it doesn't really matter, but bernie and pete can walk away from this as winners. but it is irritating to hear people obsessing. we have so many numbers. we don't know what to do with it. you do with it what you do with the electoral college tally. as long as that's what you do to determine a winner, then that's what the winner -- that's how a winner is chosen. anyway, it's really not that confusing at all. bernie sanders, mayor pete, joe biden, elizabeth warren knew how they were going to declare a winner in iowa. we'll find out very soon who that winner is. robert gibbs, a question is does

it matter at this point? i mean, bernie and mayor pete, they can be considered the losers -- i mean, the winners. joe biden's already admitted he's a loser. elizabeth warren, maybe she gets a push on to new hampshire as neither a winner nor a loser. how did the results of iowa, the chaos of iowa set up these candidates going into new hampshire? >> well, it's sort of a perfect coda on iowa that the vote total update at 1:00 in the morning creates this chaos at the very last part. you hit on the point, pledge delegates to the convention are what decide the eventual nominee. i think both for sanders and mayor pete, they both finished ahead of the competition most in their lane, right? sanders is ahead of warren, pete is ahead of biden. that sets both of them up. you see them in the tracking polling. pete getting a bump and maybe creating essentially another two-person race leading into new hampshire right now.

again, i think important that each of those candidates was ahead in both the lib ber ral and moderate lanes of this primary. >> all right. taking a look at new hampshire right here to robert's point, bernie sanders is with mayor pete looking like he's coming in second. >> here's another one. that was "the boston globe." here's emerson college one that has sanders 31%, buttigieg, 21%. joe biden and elizabeth warren all the way down 12%. you know, we could take out a lot of headlines from these polls in iowa, mike, but it seems to me, i mean, we can't predict what's going to happen as we move forward to super tuesday as it pertains to buttigieg and sanders. we can declare this, that joe

biden has been, no doubt, the first full week of this competitive campaign the loser. he's right, he took a gut punch and both he and elizabeth warren are going to be staggering out of new hampshire if these numbers that we see in these polls are anywhere close to being accurate. >> yeah, joe is badly damaged, but more specifically by his own campaign. the lack of ground game that he had in iowa. the surprising thing about those numbers that we just put up though, joe, is the slippage, the rapid slippage. if you were in new hampshire a week or ten days ago you would have thought it was bern in ahead, joe biden second and buttigieg well back. >> right. >> four or five points back and elizabeth just staying the same which, again, elizabeth warren's slippage has been surprising in new hampshire. she was going to win that primary if the primary were held

on thanksgiving day. of course, it wasn't and she is where she is now. but joe biden's campaign in new hampshire is now -- he z not a must-win but he is a must finish second or a close third. anything other than that i think he's hurt in south carolina. >> still ahead on "morning joe," today mitt romney stands alone among republicans in the u.s. senate. we'll discuss his vote to remove the president from office. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. hey, saved you a seat. this round's on me. hey, can you spot me? come on in. find your place today, with silversneakers. included in most medicare advantage plans.

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ask. shop. discover. at your local xfinity store today. not a bipartisan one as the white house had hoped. it was the vote to convict that was bipartisan. on article 1, abuse of power,

republican mitt romney crossed party lines with a vote to convict. the first time in american history a senator has voted to remove a president of his own party. article 2, obstruction of congress was a straight party line vote, meaning three key democrats from swing states trump's won voted to convict. doug jones who's currently in a tough re-election battle back in alabama. also, joe manchin of west virginia and kyrsten sinema. here's mitt romney explaining his decision. >> as a senator juror i swore an oath before god to exercise impartial justice. i am profoundly religious. my faith is at the heart of who i am.

i take an oath before god as enormously consequential. i knew at the outset that being tasked with judging the president, the leader of my own party, would be the most difficult decision i have ever faced. i was not wrong. the verdict is ours to render under our constitution, that people will judge us for how well and faithfully we fulfill our duty. the grave question the constitution tasks senators to answer is whether the president committed an act so extreme and egregious that it rises to the level of a high crime and misdemeanor. yes, he did. the president asked a foreign government to investigate his political rival. the president withheld vital military funds from that government to press it to do so. the president delayed funds for an american ally at war with

russian invaders. the president's purpose was personal and political. accordingly, the president is guilty of an appalling abuse of public trust. i acknowledge that my verdict will not remove the president from office. the results of this senate court will, in fact, be appealed to a higher court, the judgment of the american people. voters will make the final decision just as the president's lawyers have implored. my vote will likely be in the minority in the senate, but irrespective of these things, with my vote i will tell my children and their children that i did my duty to the best of my ability believing that my country expected it of me. i will only be one name among many, no more, no less, to future generations of americans who look at the record of this trial. they will note merely that i was among the senators who determined that what the president did was wrong,

grievously wrong. we are all footnotes at best in the annals of history, but in the most powerful nation on earth the nation conceived in liberty and justice that distinction is enough for any citizen. >> and with that, the white house, trump's kids, the republican party just began to snap back, lash out against mitt romney. the consequences started rolling in almost immediately. mark lebovich, you spoke with mitt romney once he spoke. what did he say? >> he told me what he was going to do. i was not surprised but it was quite something to hear him make that decision. i talked to him an hour before he made that speech. a couple of things struck me. he was nervous. mitt romney is known for being just an ice water in his veins kind of guy. not a lot seems to phase him. he spoke very haltingly.

he was clearly very emotional around this decision. hadn't slept much in a long time and i think that was reflected in his speech itself. the other thing that struck me was just how deeply he had thought about this. i think people will be very cynical about this. i think that's sort of the nature of how people view politics these days. they'll see the agony as a bit perform performative. there was a real sense of not so much self-justification but a full awareness of what was in store for him. that there are going to be really severe political consequences for him and that he was okay with it. he knew and he even anticipated in that speech that the president was going to come right after him. his allies were going to come right after him. he knows what kind of noise this is going to make, what kind of dust this is going to kick up and yet he did it anyway. i think he's prepared, like he said, for the judgment of history, for the judgment of his faith and, you know, eventually this will subside and i think he

will be remembered more for this than perhaps anything he has ever done in his political career except maybe losing the presidency in 2012. coming up, there are several big stories unfolding over seas today, from the deadly virus in china to the fallout from brexit. we're taken around the world next on "morning joe." ♪ limu emu & doug

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everywhere. everywhere. everywhere. everywhere. everywhere. joining us now, president of the council on foreign relations and author of the book "a world in disarray" richard haas. also with us, editor and chief of "the economist" zanny minton bettos. >> richard, let's talk about the president's state of the union address and foreign policy. let's talk about what he said and more importantly what he did not say. your take. >> what he said was he did a victory lap on iran, on isis, on trade. what he didn't say though was really interesting. one was any other aspect of u.s./china relations was essentially ignored. north korea figured prominently a year ago in the state of the

union was not uttered this time around. he talked about trees but never talked about climate change, which was another omission. and then russia/ukraine. last i checked there was still a war going on there. so this was a very selective state of the world inside the state of the union. i thought the most interesting thing might have been going forward was the one thing he did mention, which was afghanistan. if i were an odds maker i would think the odds that you see further troop reductions unconditionally out of afghanistan. i think he wants to go into the election saying he did get american forces out of the middle east and out of afghanistan. >> driven by the same instinct barack obama had getting forces out of iraq quickly before his re-election campaign. that didn't turn out very well. let's talk about the middle east peace plan, richard. it was talked about a week ago. the president had a press conference with benjamin netanyahu.

is there any chance that any part of this peace plan will ever be implemented? >> not as a peace plan and not as a negotiation. i think the danger is that chunks of it could be implemented unilaterally by israel so it doesn't become a peace plan, it becomes a reality. and that's the danger and already we're beginning to see signs of push back. if you read aratz this morning, what was striking it me, zanny and i were talking about, you have cars running over soldiers in jerusalem. three palestinians killed in the west bank. israel going deep into syria to attack missile sites there. israel going into gaza to attack hamas. you have this quote, unquote, plan coming out of washington which bears no relationship to the challenges in the region. to come back to where you began, no, this is a political plan, it is not a peace plan.

>> zanny, "the economist" has a cover on coronavirus. how bad is it? >> it's pretty bad. the big question is, a, how far does it go beyond china and, b, what is the impact of what is happening in china? in both cases, i'm pretty struck. i spent the week here in the u.s. how little attention is being focused on it and how the markets are shrugging this off now. i think we don't know yet. the prism through which people are looking at this is the prism of sars. just to give you a couple of numbers, china's much, much more connected to the world. before they started banning flights, 200,000 people left china or came into china by air every day. that's a huge number of people. it's also 16% of the world economy compared to 4%. i think we're going to see much more effect. i think we are far from seeing this peeking in china. all of these factories closed after the new year for a week or

so, this could be several weeks. if it's several weeks or a couple of months, the hit to the world economy is going to be pretty hard and people will be getting worried if it spreads outside of china. >> part of the concern is people aren't sure what to believe in terms of numbers that come out of china. it doesn't have a record of being completely transparent. >> we have to understand the number of people who have it will come down. the numbers being put out are way, way, way low. it could be a factor of 10, could be a factor of 25. we're talking far larger. the question is lethality. a number of people can come down with it. the question is how lethal is it? is it because the virus is that bad or is it because of lack of hydration or lack of masks. we don't know everything about the disease. don't know everything about the economics. zanny is spot on. supply chains is the thing. the most interesting conversation to me is what

implications will this have for xi jinping. what will this do for the communist party. you can't consolidate power and suddenly say, not on my watch. this is on his watch. like it or not, clearly they've been sluggish. >> what does it do to the china relationship with the rest of the world. i think this could fuel a side of phobia that is rising in this country and if you have to pull out foreigners from china and you have that for several weeks, a couple of months, you're going to see people really, really worrying about what's happening in china and standing back from that. i think there's a lot more to come. >> extraordinary moment during the state of the union address. president pointing to them and inviting them for a visit at the white house. >> the only problem is we don't have a plan. he's up there in the gallery. he's in the gallery, not in venezuela. meanwhile, you have the maduro government stronger. "the new york times" ran a story, the regime is beginning

to loosen up selectively. there's agree of support of the regime from particularly the upper classes. we can support guido. you have 4 million refugees overwhelming the area. i don't see how he goes from congress to the streets to have power? venezuela. >> that's right. he's not going to do much more venezuela sitting in the gallery in congress. a year ago you thought that was likely. now it's harder to see that. it's a good photo op in d.c. but i'm not sure it's doing much for the people of venezuela. >> zanny, richard, thank you. our next guest put it blu bluntly in new york magazine. running bernie sanders against trump would be an act of insani insanity. we have that explanation next on "morning joe." on next on "morning joe." hi guys. this is the chevy silverado,

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at 37 past the hour the iowa democratic party has confirmed to nbc news that it experienced an unusually high volume of in bound phone calls to its caucus hotline on monday night as precinct chairs struggled to reach party officials to report results. iowa democratic party official tells nbc the influx of calls included supporters of president trump. this dovetails with a bloomberg report yesterday that trump supporters flooded the iowa hotline after the telephone number was posted online. worsening delays in the statewide tally. in a statement the trump campaign denied any knowledge of the calls adding sarcastically,

maybe democrats should consider using an app of some kind next time. meanwhile, "the new york times" reports several precinct chairs dropped their paper results into traditional mailboxes, which is adding to the delay. the chairman of the iowa democratic party troy price told the paper, quote, we are in the process of waiting for the mail to arrive. >> i also heard, mika, from a source very close to all of this that you actually had precinct cha chairmen that would sit there, they tried to call for about 20, 30 minutes and then they just took their results and they went home, that this is what they -- and there's been -- traditionally there's been this problem. it is such an antiquated 19th century way to elect any candidates whatsoever. it's just amazing that iowa's still trying to do it this way

in 2020. >> meanwhile, bernie sanders and pete buttigieg remain neck in neck in iowa, and this morning the sanders campaign announced it raised $25 million last month. it's all gotten the attention of joe biden who yesterday took on sanders on the campaign trail in new hampshire. >> we not only have to beat trump to get everything passed we're talking about, all the progressive proposals that are being made, we need a nominee who can help democrats up and down the ticket, help them win in the ballot. bring back the united states senate. i've done that in 2018, i did that, went out and did 24 states for 65 candidates, but if senator sanders is a nominee for the party, every democrat in america in blue states, red states, purple states in easy districts, competitive ones, every democrat will have to carry the label senator sanders has chosen for himself. he calls -- i don't criticize

him. he calls himself a democratic socialist. we're already seeing what donald trump is going to do with that. >> in a way they meddled. the trump folks calling in and flooding the lines. >> they did. of course, here's the thing. the democrats in iowa were the ones that put the number up online. if they're really that stupid, they deserve to be meddled with. they really do. they're going up against donald trump. please, don't be shocked that his people are going to be dirty. don't be shocked that they're going to -- >> don't make it so easy. >> -- punch below the belt. don't go in exposed saying, hit me, hit me in the face. that's what iowa democrats did the other night. so don't be shocked but don't be dumb either. you've got to get smart. you've got to get tough. boy, mika, what a stupid way for the democrats in iowa to begin this process. >> really rough. rough start. joining us now two writers

with strong thoughts about bernie sanders' candidacy. author "time magazine" editor at large and nbc news political analyst anan giardis and jonathan chate. jason johnson and susan delpercio along with joe, willie and me. >> this is kind of like crossfire with anan and jonathan. jonathan, let's start with you. i was surprised by how strongly you came out talking about bernie sanders campaign and what it would mean to the democratic party. talk about why you believe nominating sanders to run against trump would be, quote, an act of insanity. >> sure. you want to be clear you can't use a word like unelectable because anybody has a chance. it's very clear that sanders has

a much worse chance than anybody else. one of them is saying lots of really unpopular things makes you less likely to win elections. bernie sanders has said lots and lots of unpopular things. >> like what? >> taking away people a's priva insurance. it goes from a 50-50, 30-70. abolishing i.c.e. giving health care coverage to undocumented immigrants. he packages -- it packages those unpopular positions with an unpopular label of democratic socialists. polls are anywhere from 20 to 40% at best agree with socialism and think capitalism is bad. that's a really, really dangerous combination. furthermore, i think it just plays directly into president trump's strength, which is that people are pretty satisfied with the economy so he's just going to be able to say, this guy's going to upset the apple cart.

rather than focusing on trump's vulnerabilities, you're going to go right at his one area of strength. i'm not saying he can't win because you never know who can and can't win, but i'm saying if you are playing the odds, his odds are pretty bad. >> jonathan, you talked about his background. >> yeah. >> it looked like it could have been written? breitbart except it wasn't. you wrote it and you talked about his past and the fact that, you know, him with soviet leaders, him leading far left movements in the past. some of the other things that he did that the trump people will just go to town on. reminds me of what bob kerry said. looks like enough stuff so they could open him up like a rusty can. >> that's right. it's a little bit jeremy corbin like where he has associates with left wij politics that had a lot of connections with the far left world internationally.

i think some of that is on video. some of that is on quotes. it's also going to make it easier for a trump campaign to say this isn't just progressivism, this isn't roosevelt, that it's something radical, dangerous, you should be scared. i don't think people should be scared of it. i don't think he's going to be able to do the things he says he wants to do if he's elected. i think he's making the task very, very easy. i think democrats are really very right to be afraid of nominating him. >> so, anan, i'm curious of what you think jonathan has laid out and laid out in his column and the larger question democrats should be asking themselves instead which is why is bernie sanders doing so well in this moment. >> that's a very good question. 19 years ago, little known fact, i as an intern fact checked jonathan chate's statements. i don't think it's our job as

journalists to predict. one of the points that was made when jonathan wrote his piece, which was thoughtful and a coherent argument, but i think inherently getting into this terrain of predicting. john predicted the iraq war would go well. john predicted that trump would lose decisively to hillary clinton and suggested that the democrats cheer his nomination by the republican party. i think we should be humble when we have those kinds of records. i don't predict, i'm a reporter. what i did is travel several thousand miles around the country, all kinds of places, and actually talked to the people in this movement that i am somewhat puzzled by as well, was puzzled by before i did that work. it is completely puzzling that someone with bernie sanders views is doing as well as he is in this country. as you say, the interesting question is not to take our reflexes and tamp down something new that is happening but it is to say, huh, if this thing that is happening that by a certain

kind of logic shouldn't be happening, is happening, what's going on? what i found in all of these places, most of that travel was in the rust belt, there were a bunch of guys there in particular who caught my eye, guys who look like trump voters if you're making a police sketch of the composite trump voter, beefy guy, sometimes wearing camo. one guy had blood like he had just come from shooting a -- like there was blood on the camo pants. and they're at these rallies. and i asked them, what do you think about bernie sanders? democratic socialist, do you have a problem with that? oh, yeah, i'm not for democratic socialism. i'm a capitalist. why are you at this rally? oh, i love bernie, he's fighting for me. all i would say with all humility as a reporter, there is something going on in this country that is outside a lot of conventional thinking right now. there are a lot of people who actually are living in the 21st century and don't care as much

about 20th century divides and labels as people think. and it's actually -- the right thing to do in this moment as a reporter, at least for me, is to become curious about that and understand. what i've understood, when you have facts like over the last 30 years, the top 1% of americans have gained $21 trillion in wealth while the boot tomorrow 50 have lost $900 billion of wealth, that's the fact where you're understanding maybe politics are changing and we don't understand. >> jonathan, dividing this country isn't democrat and republican, it's younger voters who view anti-elitism and anti-establishmentism as their calling. that could mean donald trump, bernie sanders. >> right. it's interesting to me that people made the exact same argument that you just heard on behalf of jeremy corbin. we can't trust the numbers. we can't trust the polls because there's something happening here. i met these passionate corbin voters. it won't be reflected in the

polls. many people on the left connected the presumed success corbin was going to have in brittain to the success they presumed sanders was going to have because they saw it on the ground. we should ignore all of these wildly unpopular positions they had because there was a feeling. you can't know. we should be humble about our certainty but that doesn't mean we know nothing. that doesn't mean we should ignore all the evidence and all the data. that tells you that politicians who have lots of extremely unpopular positions are less likely to win. i don't think anything he sees on the ground can make you ignore that fact. >> jason, why don't you jump in and give us your thoughts. sanders that democratic savior or would democrats be insane to nominate him? >> they would not be insane. i have to push back against this. as a political scientist, somebody who works as a journalist. i'm not a reporter. this comparison to jeremy corbin

doesn't make sense. i have said all along, bernie sanders' path to success is much like mexico. the two major parties have disappointed everybody. people are angry that the democrats no longer really represent working class people. people are mad that republicans aren't necessarily doing anything good for the economy and then you can have someone step into that gap and end up getting elected after several times of sort of being taken advantage of by the system. that's what happened at our neighbors in mexico. that would be the path of victory for bernie sanders. it is crazy to say that he has no chance of winning. >> i didn't. >> he's a high risk, high reward candidate. >> let me just say -- anan, let me ask you this about bernie. again, this is a guy who, again, he is -- he does have pretty radical views regarding economics if you look at the mainstream of american political thought over the past 100 years. we have unemployment at 50-year

lows. the united states economy is -- has been doing very well during the 11-year obama recovery. bernie sanders, he may have made much more sense in 2010, 2012 than he's making in 2020 when the 2020 when the economy is again still enjoying 11 years of recovery that started under barack obama. >> i think the reason that is less significant to me is that the deeper fundamentals of the economy, when you look at deeper indicators, long term indicators, labor force participation rate, what percentage of men are just fundamentally out of the game of working permanently, that's a very disturbing number, has been disturbing for some years. if you look at can young people do the things that mark getting older the way early generations do, buy a home, get married, afford to have children, no. much lower rates. business formation.

the economy is fine in certain macro indicators, small business formation by my generation, millennials, i am an old white haired millennial is down, drastically down. a lot of people are watching tv, hearing policy positions, but also looking at their own lives in my experience and they're assessing the fact that whoever is talking about tweaks to the system is probably not going to change the fact that they can't buy that house, can't afford to start that business, that they're terrified, as i have been terrified in certain moments about not having health care for their child. i think we're seeing something new because people are tired of the old same old same old of their stuck lives. >> jonathan, you look at the numbers, the data, we're talking whether bernie sanders is going to be lined up i did logically with most americans in the general election, i am not sure

he is, even in the primary when one poll after another has shown 50% of democrats wanted a more moderate candidate in the process. add up numbers in iowa, still seems to be that way. >> that's right. he has consolidated the leftwing of the party, central leftwing of the party is still splintered, might be splintered several more raises, a disturbing process. sanders is not as left as corbin. but you're hearing the same arguments that were made on behalf of corbin. ignore his unpopular positions because i feel something happening out there. i think you should look at what people tell you about his positions and that data is disturbing. doesn't mean he can't win, it means you should be worried about the bet. >> as we close out, want to show what you tweeted about mitt

romney's vote to convict. there aren't a lot of moments are pure patriotism and self sacrifice in american life any more, of bravery in the face of what will be a remainder of a life filled with threats and disparagement. let us honor one when we see it. bravo, and thank you, mitt romney. anand giridharadas, thank you. stephanie ruhle has an interview with pete buttigieg. and stephen colbert, tweeted ratings for donald trump's state of the union down 21% from last year. maybe it is time to recast the lead? before we go to break, president trump is attending the national prayer breakfast in washington. look at this. wow. >> i wonder, maybe he should

show his son's instagram picture of mitt romney, see what the evangelicals think of that. >> we'll be right back. >> we'll be right back how bout no? no. uh uh, no way. ♪ come on. no. no. n... ni ni, no no! only discover has no annual fee on any card. 1917 has been nominated including best cinematography, best director, and best picture of the year. (honk!) i hear you sister. that's why i'm partnering with cigna to remind you to go in for your annual check-up, and be open with your doctor about anything you feel - physically and emotionally. but now cigna has a plan that can help everyone see stress differently.

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president trump's state of the union drew a smaller audience than a year ago. >> ouch. sad. >> making it the smallest, smallest live tv audience for a presidential address to congress since barack obama's farewell

state of the union address in 2016. viewership was down 20%. >> 20%. >> from the state of the union last year. >> wow. >> lower than the audience for his addresses in 2015 and 2018. >> he can't do it, like the apprentice, it started strong, and drooped. >> the president definitely produced the state of the union like a tv show. i think we know he worries about ratings and crowd size, he won't like that number, but i think he will trade a drop in television ratings for acquittal in the impeachment trial. people in the white house feel like they've had a very good week. >> susan del percio, what are your thoughts going into this week? >> hope the courier pigeons get the results from iowa in, it would be great to have the numbers. when we look towards new hampshire, it is clear that joe biden has everything on the line

coming up. and the debate tomorrow will be critical to that effort. >> jason, we all are focusing on elizabeth warren so much, talking about two winners, one big loser. but elizabeth warren has a lot to prove in new hampshire. can she afford another third or fourth place finish in her home state? >> she can afford it financially, has a large number of donors. can she afford it politically? i don't think so. honestly, i don't see anyone necessarily dropping out of the race before super tuesday. the top four, five candidates that we've got still have enough money and pride, still have steyer, still have bloomberg. but i think also what we saw in iowa is what we'll see with elizabeth warren, maybe as a second or third choice, she's really popular. lots of people take a look at her, shopping at the window, at the end of the day going for joe, mayor pete, or bernie sanders. i don't know where she has a break through moment in the

upcoming states. >> i want to reiterate before we go off air, you'll hear about joe biden and his collapsing campaign and other people's collapsing campaigns. just want to repeat, in 1980, ronald reagan was supposed to be the guy to sweep the republican nomination. he got humiliated in iowa. george h.w. bush talked about big mo, that stop when reagan won new hampshire changed everything. 1988, george h.w. bush, then as vice president, finished third place behind pat robertson, bob dole. his campaign was supposed to be over. he ended up winning new hampshire big. told him he would never forget about it and he did not, named the governor his chief of staff. you can go to 2008 when everybody predicted hillary clinton would be demolished by barack obama in 2008, didn't happen that way. hillary shocked the political world, kept her campaign alive for months after that.

and don't forget 2016, four years ago, donald trump lost in iowa, was starting to lose numbers, polling numbers in new hampshire about this time. the media was mocking him, saying it might be over for donald trump with another loss. we know how that story ended as well. we just don't know how the story ends in 2020 for joe biden, for bernie sanders, for pete buttigieg, for elizabeth warren, for amy klobuchar, or yes, for michael bloomberg. stay tuned. >> that does it for us this morning. great way to wrap things up. stephanie ruhle picks up coverage now. hi there, i am stephanie ruhle. it is thursday, february 6th. here's what's happening today. new numbers came in from the iowa caucuses overnight as we inch closer to getting the complete results two and a half days after we thought we would have a winner. guess what, we may actually have two. with 97 precincts