good morning. it is saturday, december 26th. i hope you had a happy and most importantly a safe and healthy holiday. we're 25 days until president-elect joe biden's inauguration. the outgoing president continues to employ a burn it down strategy on his way out. and seems more determined than ever to act out every last one

of his authoritarian fantasies as americans are dying from covid-19 at the fastest rate of the entire pandemic. we'll have much more on that in a moment. we want to start with the latest on what officials are calling a deliberate bomb explosion in nashville that left three wounded and scores homeless early christmas morning. police say they responded to a call of shots fired in downtown nashville just before 6:00 a.m. local time on christmas day. responding officers found no signs of a shooting but they noticed a suspicious recreational vehicle blaring a warning to evacuate the area. about 15 minutes later, that vehicle exploded, destroying much of the immediate area and leaving a giant crater in the middle of the road. the blast was so big it was felt for miles, shaking buildings and shattering windows. authorities say the explosion was an intentional act and the

fbi is now leading the investigation. joining me now live in nashville is shaquille brewster. what's the latest in the investigation? >> you mentioned the fbi is the lead agency in charge of this investigation. we expect some device experts to arrive and start going through that crime scene. the scene, the massive scene left as a result of that christmas day bombing. what police are saying now is we don't have any idea of a suspect. there's no motive for why someone drove an rv into the downtown area, parked it on 2nd avenue and detonated it after a warning. that massive blast caused lots of damage. one building collapsed entirely. three people were hospitalized as a result, and there are no confirmed fatalities, but police are saying they have recovered some sort of tissue, possible remains. so it's not clear if it was someone inside the van or

outside of it at this time. when you look at the timeline of this and you start to tick through it, that's when it becomes truly bizarre. police say it was 1:30 a.m. when this rv came in and parked in the middle of this street. they then say at 5:30, just before 6:00 a.m., they were responding to calls of shots fired. instead encountered this van that started blaring out music and a timeline, a countdown warning people it was going to explode and telling people to evacuate. i spoke to a witness last night who said that she heard this. she left with her family and she explained how tense the situation was at that time. but we continue to see exactly what happened. we know around 6:30 is when the bomb detonated. it had the effect of knocking out communication lines and also leading to a ground halt at the airport. >> thank you. we will continue to stay in touch with you if you get new

developments on this, let us know and we'll get them right on. i want to bring in jim cavanaugh, a retired atf special agent in charge and by the way the former head of the nashville field division. so he knows the topic and he knows the region. jim, what do you make of this? this was clearly a bomb. police say it's intentional. there was a weird warning that came out ahead of time. they think there may be human remains at the site. but they have not been clear on what that is. tell me how you piece this altogether, what it means to you. >> you have go back to the crime scene. that will be processed to get all those answers. i start trying to always want to get in the mind of the bomber or bombers. a lot of purpose here. a lot of planning. a lot of money, time, effort spent to build the bomb, to make a recording, to plan on where to go. maybe shooting before or having

recordings of a shooting before to draw the police in to then make sure everyone gets away. it's not targeted at the police. police are easy to kill. you can drive to the police station if you want to put the bomb there. this is not targeted towards law enforcement officers. this is -- the purpose we're not sure. was it the at&t building? it could be. this building is so nondescript, most don't know it's there and passed it thousands of times. there's no markings. it looks like a giant parking garage. it doesn't even have a front door on 2nd avenue. it's pretty much just nothing. the at&t tower in the nash vvil skyline is famous. we call it the batman building, it has two antennas on it, looks like batman's has the. that's a few blocks away. this is just a center for their

telecommunications equipment. if it was targeted, it's someone with a bizarre plan to do that. the vehicle was not placed against the building from the reports we have. it was in the street somewhere. the police say middle of the street, maybe on a curb. i'm not sure exactly which exact spot on the street. it was not pressed against the building. now, it could be a spectacular suicide event and once agents from atf, fbi, metropolitan police get to the suspect's house, they may find a message, you know, hey, guess what? this is what we are capable of and you better listen to our demands or there will be more. or if there's no one in the vehicle, then we still could have some demands like that. we could have someone outside the vehicle firing a rifle to draw attention to it. once law enforcement arrives,

the recording would start. the mission starts. once law enforcement arrives. if that vehicle was parked there christmas morning, 20 degrees, a light snow here for hours, ali, before a patrol car would have seen it. it's just a desserted tourist area on chris mat mornintmas mo nobody is there. if the bomber said nobody is coming to fulfill my plan of attention and grandiosity, i have to get them here. i have to shoot a gun or play a recording of a gun or try to get some attention. tremendous heroes on the metropolitan police. could have six dead metro police officers here, but i go back to the bombings here. >> there was an attempted bombing in times square. it was obvious a car isn't supposed to be parked in times square, they figured that out. what i learned from you is that you can always tell an intentional bomb from an

unintentional explosion. that is apparently done relatively quickly. is it typical that someone doesn't claim responsibility for this type of thing? >> well, bombers are typical people, but if the bomber is dead, then the message may be at their home or, you know, it will come later in the mail. sometimes i've had the bombers, for example, kill themselves -- i had one at the opry land hotel put a bomb in a range rover, blew himself up, blew himself 30 feet out of the vehicle. it was a suicide, concocted plot. but we didn't get the notice until about four days later when the letter he mailed to himself showed up to his house in a suburb of nashville outlying the crazy plot. so he might have left a message if it's a suicide at his home, if there's something in the mail, something will arrive, a tape recording will show up at the media. all kinds of ways.

bombers do warn before bombs sometimes. people always say no, don't take the bomb threat seriously. that's silly. the sds warned back in the '70s many times before they would blow up a government building. eric rudolph called 911 and said there's a bomb in centennial park, it will go off in 30 minutes. i have had bombers leave notes on the bomb saying this is a bomb. people say i didn't think it was a bomb. bomb verse mers have motives. sometimes the girlfriend will call in and say there's a bomb over there because a boyfriend left it or something. metropolitan police have been trained by atf for years to back off. years ago i had a series of bombings here, i was standing on top of a 200 pound ticking time book about three blocks from there. it's still the largest high explosive car bomb ever found in the u.s.

we were able to dismantle it, get the people away. that was 3:00 in the afternoon, a block from the grand ole opry. we caught the bombers. they were responsible for five bombings, but we train the metropolitan police. get away, back off. get everybody away. don't get close. firefighters, too. if you can see it, it can see you. get away. get behind a building. back off and usually you're too close. even police officers and firefighters when i see a suspected explosive device, you're too close. keep backing the perimeter up. when those things go off, that fragmentation goes for blocks. >> jim, this one certainly could have been worse. we're glad it isn't. thanks for helping us understand this. we'll rely on you over the course of the next few days as the fbi and atf develop more information about what this bomb was and why it was put there. jim cavanaugh is a retired special agent in charge and an msnbc terrorism analyst.

donald trump, who was informed about this bomb, played golf yesterday at his mare l-a-o golf resort yesterday. he is employing a selfish burn it down strategy, the hell with the country and we the people. just this week on numerous occasions, the outgoing president exemplified how un-american he truly is. he issued dozens of pardons to loyalists making past pardon controversies pale in compari n comparison. this list -- this is not close to a complete list, but it includes several trump associates, multiple former members of congress convicted of corruption and fraud, several money launderers, border patrol agents, and four people convicted of perpetrating a massacre. they were convicted in the

unprovoked killing of 14 iraqi killings in a public square in 2007. the human rights office says it is deeply concerned by the pardons and questioned the united states compliance of its obligations under international law. trump this week also vetoed the annual defense bill, the national defense authorization act in part because it authorized the renaming of the united states military bases currently named for confederate generals who are by definition traitors to the united states. and also because the bill didn't bend to his wishes to punish social media companies for perceived grievances against him. trump is also vowing to veto the annual government funding bill and the next round of additional and desperately needed covid-19 reli relief. those have been coupled together in congress into one enormous bill, enormous means 5,593 pages in total.

in fact, nbc news places it as the longest congressional bill on record. congress this week after months of negotiations and several stop gaps to keep the government opened. trump appeared set to sign it and a white house spokesperson made an appearance on fox news praising all the reasons why he would. then exactly one hour after that appearance, the outgoing president posted a bizarre and deranged video on social media tearing apart nearly all aspects of the bill from the amount of foreign aid to the size of direct relief payments to americans. in that video, trump also delusionally insisted that he will be the next president of the united states. now, it should be noted, trump played absolutely no part in the negotiations for this bill, and he waited until after it crossed the finish line to move it back, to issue his demands. by the way, we're facing another government shutdown on monday night. because that was part of that

bill. it also should be noted that trump's main grievance, the size of the direct payments, a maximum of $600 per person is as low as it is because that's as high as senate republicans would go. they cited concerns about the increased deficit and that more money would encourage people to stay home rather than work. republicans blocked democratic efforts in the house on thursday to increase those payments in the stimulus bill to trump's desired $2,000 a person. it's what democrats wanted in the first place. speaker nancy pelosi says a vote on a stand-alone bill providing that increase will take place on monday in addition to a vote to override trump's defense bill veto. the override is expected to pass the house, and while the bill initially passed the senate with a clear veto-proof majority, it's always unclear as it is with senate republicans whether they'll be too terrified of their dear leader's twitter wrath to vote against him. millions of americans are on the

brink of homelessness and hunger but republicans in congress and their president stalled the one hope for help. joining me now is a micongressw brenda lawrence of michigan. good to see you again. thank you for being with us. what in your opinion is going on right now? >> good morning. right now i have a saying that a politician without compassion is a criminal. what i see happening now is criminal. it's so unnecessary and it's so beyond the role of the president. it's not to be destructive. it's not to be obstructive. it is to work together with our government to take care of the people for the people. now, to say that you have the audacity to have a golf game while your military -- you're

holding up pay raises, benefits to those who protect us and serve us. and then to think that with all the negotiations and, you know, the media was criticizing congress, i heard it all the time from my constituents. why aren't you all working on this? why aren't you understanding how important this stimulus package is? we're suffering. then for him to put a threat -- he's had this bill, the stimulus package bill, they flew it down to the golf course so that he would have it and he still hasn't signed it. he celebrated christmas with all of his wealth and resources and had a good day. where millions of americans between the virus and this threat of losing their unemployment today, and losing and shutting down the government, all of our government employees.

now we have to go back to congress to try to figure out the madness. what is the -- >> you make some important points. today is the day unemployment benefits end for some people. >> yes. >> and restrictions, moratorium on evictions and on foreclosures, the -- there are people going hungry. if there's a government shutdown on monday night, the people who would get stuff from the government are not going to get it. the house of representatives passed a bill on october 1st. this was a hold up in the senate from senate republicans who decided they are worried about the debt. i don't know why they weren't worried about the debt in 2017 and 2018 when they were passing tax cuts, now they're worried about the debt because people with no employment will get $600 from the government. >> we are seeing the

disconnect -- this is the most troubling thing to me, ali. the president was at the table. he knew about the desire and the fight to eliminate the $2,000 benefit that we were going to give to suffering americans. he knew about it. or he should have. and now at this last minute to just stop abruptly, just throw on the brakes. no, i think you should do this. you had your people at the table. why didn't you intervene? why didn't you step up as president and change some things? and now it's just dysfunction. you know during this time that we were negotiating, he was so busy talking about recount, recount, i want it, i don't care what the numbers say. i'm still president. now our country is suffering. do you realize that in that is a

pay raise for our military. he repeatedly said during his presidency, i love the military. i take care of the military. now you're going to slap them in the face as you leave? this is just really -- january 20th cannot come fast enough. >> to your point, steve mnuchin, the treasury secretary and mark meadows his chief of staff were in those negotiations, you would think he would be conveying through them what his concerns were before the final deal got done, but he didn't. congresswoman brenda lawrence, thank you for your time. >> thank you. this week, donald trump exercised his presidential authority to pardon people who have been wronged by the u.s. justice system. so he gave a free pass to his friends, family and four men involved in the killing of innocent iraqi civilians in a war zone. that is not how the system is supposed to work. i'll have more on that next.

>> the power to pardon is a beautiful thing. you have to get it right. you have to get the right people. i want people who are unfairly treated like an alice where she comes out and it's something beautiful. >> remember that name, alice. president trump was right about one thing, presidents typically do pardon people who were treated unfairly by the justice system. this week his actions didn't match his words. right before christmas, trump pardoned every major defendant from special council robert mueller's investigation who did not cooperate with the investigation. two people who did cooperate, michael cohen and rick gates, are the only two major figures who did not get a pardon. according to the "new york times," jack goldsmith found that 88% of trump's pardons went to people with personal ties to him or people who furthered his political aims.

that was before he pardoned paul manafort and roger stone. trump keeps attempting a coup after losing the election now he's telling his friends who will take care of them. let's set aside the shamelessness of this. the conventional wisdom is presidents have the right articulated in the constitution to pardon who they please. trump has that authority, just before he can doesn't mean he should. he has gotten it right before. he mentioned alice johnson. trump commuted her sentence while she was serving life without parole for a first-time nonviolent drug offense. earlier this year he gave her a full pardon after she praised him at the rnc. now put aside whether you think his intentions in that case were genuine, either way she's an example of the type of person deserving of a person. but she's not in the same league as the people he pardoned this week. on tuesday trump gave full

pardons to four former blackwater contractors convicted of killing iraqi civilians. their convictions were not a perversion of justice, they killed innocent people in a war zone. strangely there are actual rules of war and those four people broke them. they now have a clean slate. that's not to mention the corrupt former republican lawmakers who trump also pardoned that day. for the first time the president pardoned a family member, jared kushner's father, charles. among other things, charles attempted to intimidate his own sister in a cruel way from acting as a witness in a campaign finance probe. kushner was sent to jail by none other than another trump ally, the former new jersey governor, chris christie who had this to say about the crime last year. >> if a guy hires a prostitute to seduce his brother-in-law and videotapes it and sends the videotape to his sister to

attempt to intimidate her from testifying before a grand jury, to i really need more justification than that? it's one of the most disgusting crimes that i prosecuted when i was u.s. attorney. >> charles kushner may be trump's first family pardon even if it's family by marriage, he has 25 days left in office and we could see more immediate family next. what about himself? it's not like he has not floated the idea before. i know just the people to talk to about this. we'll take a deeper dive with our legal experts after a quick break. don't go anywhere.

i just told you about president trump's latest wave of pardons to family, friends and convicted murderers. most people do not consider most of these pardons ethical, moral but they may be legal.

he has the power to issue these pardons and more and he may be warming up more pardons, including for himself. i want to bring in glenn kersner. we also have "new york times" national security and legal reporter charlie savage, the author of a book i read some years ago and it becomes more important every time charlie and i talk through this administration. it's called "power wars: the relentless rise of presidential power and secrecy." glenn, let me start with you and the pardons of the four blackwater contractors. they are soldiers for hire. they opened fire on a number of people, most of whom were civil januarys notcivilians not involved in the war. they were convicted in court. it was a difficult and long court case that involved shipping people over to provide testimony. you had a strong view on this when you and i talked wi ed abos

the other day. >> i did. when you realize that these four blackwater contractors and let's call them what they are, convicted killers, pardoned though they may be now, when these men opened fire on innocent unarmed iraqi men, women and children who were literally just trying to pass through a security checkpoint to get to work, to sort of carry on with their daily lives, they opened fire and what they did was they just assassinated 17 innocent iraqis. they injured 14 others. and then the department of justice and specifically my former office, the u.s. attorney's office for the district of columbia, spent the better part of a decade trying to fight for justice for those iraqi victims for what was done to them on their soil by these american contractors.

i hope if there's one enduring message that the world can take away from this, it's not donald trump's callous, reckless signature on pardons trying to wipe the slate clean but rather the ten years that the power and the resources and the determination of the federal government and the department of justice poured into these prosecutions to vindicate what was done to those iraqi victims. that is what america is all about. not donald trump's pardons. >> charlie, in the constitution, section two clause one reads the president shall have power to grant reprieves and pardons for offenses against the united states except in cases of impeachment, which is a separate issue. it's called plenary authority. most people don't dispute the president has this pardon power. there will be disputes if the president pardons himself. he says he has the authority for

this. this falls into a larger category of the authority that the executive has that most people did not care about all that much, charlie, even when your book came out, most people didn't care about it all that much. as you once told me, as long as it's your guy in the office, you're fine with him taking more authority than the law maybe says he should. what we've learned in the last four years is that presidents have tried this process, they have taken more and more authority from other branches of government and we let them get away with it. >> it's true that the power of the presidency has been swelling far beyond, i think, what the founders intended it to be 200 plus years ago. especially since the cold war and then again after sort of a blip of reset since the watergate period and it's grown again. this one, though, is one that they did intend for presidents to have. there was some debate around the constitution about whether it was too dangerous because a it

the would tell someone to commit a crime for his own personal benefit and pardon him. i think george mason warned about that. in the end they decided to leave this power in there. plenary basically means unrestricted. so some questions people have surrounding these extremely controversial pardons are can biden come in and undue them? the answer is basically no. the people who are pardoned are pardoned forever even if it was a corrupt pardon. even if they paid off president trump hypothetically to wipe away their legal consequences of past crimes. that could be a separate crime. they could be prosecuted perhaps and trump could be for bribery, but for the thing they've been granted clemency for, it's gone forever as far as legal consequences. there's interesting things about this. we were talking about the blackwater contractors, another

set are these russian investigation figures including people like roger stone and paul manafort who did not cooperate with investigators and may still know things they didn't tell. that's why they're being rewarded now. so one thing that can happen now, is that they can be brought in to a grand jury or before a committee of congress under subpoena and forced to say what they know. and if they refuse to testify or they lie now, because they have no right against self-incrimination because of the pardon, that could be a new crime. there may still be some ways if the next administration or the next congress wants to drag this out. on the other hand, if they may just look forward and not look back attitude and this is over. >> glenn, the reason i think we have to not take a don't look back and let this be over view is first of all we have 25 more days in which the president has shown himself to be remarkably

creative in his crews of pardons. he happens to be trying to overturn the results of a duly won election. that worries me a bit because a few legal experts floated ideas about what he can do to encourage people to break the law and then pardon people to do so if it furthers his aim. a harvard professor indicated that 88% of pardons or commutations have gone to a way that would benefit him personally or politically. >> yeah. i think we all felt like a pardon palooza was coming. now we've seen wave one. i can't help but feel, ali, that donald trump pardoning jared kushner's father was simply a way of softening the ground for what may be more familial pardons coming. i guess i have a slightly different view from charlie

about whether these pardons can ever be attacked in court. the truth of the matter is there's very little legal precedent. and i understand we all have opinions about how a court might rule if a corrupt pardon was challenged. but the plenary pardon power can contradict other powers in the constitution like the care to faithfully execute the laws of the country. i would hope that when we have a law-abiding, law-enforcing attorney general, and i think we're all certain that we're all about to have a law-abiding attorney general, whoever that may be, i hope there's serious consideration given to challenging corrupt pardons in court so that our opinions are fine, but let's get a judicial ruling on just how far a corrupt president can push the pardon power. >> gentlemen, it's an interesting discussion and one we'll have to keep on having

because there are probably more pardons coming. we need to figure out how to handle this in the future. glenn kirstner and charlie savage, thank you. you can catch "capital crimes" tonight at 10:00 p.m. on msnbc. president trump never paid a price for his lies, at least we don't have to listen to those lies after 25 days. after trump leaves office, right-wing media will still be seen by millions on televisions across the united states and their lies have gone unchecked until now. that's next. we're also continuing to follow the situation in nashville, tennessee. local police and the fbi are investigating what they call an intentional bombing on christmas day. at least three people are injured, many have been displaced from their homes. officials say the explosion originated from a recreational vehicle which broadcasted a

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liars don't often face consequences, not in the era of trump. lies flow out of that man's mouth at a pace we've never known, at least for a president. and he's rarely paid a price. for four years president trump told pathetic little lies starting with the exaggeration of his inauguration crowd and he told big lies like about the seriousness about the coronavirus. those lies likely killed people. trump has lied 25,653 times as president according to the "washington post." the post, by the way, is behind on its count on trump lies because he lied so often in the final months of the election. it would be funny if it wasn't tragic. while trump's lies have not cost him historically anything other

than his dignity, they finally did last month, though he lies about that, too. the he lost the election and is leaving the white house in 25 days. trump will be out of power but the most powerful amplifiers of his lies, cright-wing media. lies that predate the trump era, but that increased in number and in consequence while trump was in office. these are the companies that promoted racist birther conspiracies about president obama, the nonexistent death panels tucked into the affordable care act. they made hillary clinton so heinous that you would want to imprison her on the spot. they jumped on trump's bandwagon early and often about the coronavirus. those lies actually killed people and they're still telling the same lies. there's no remorse. but there might finally be some consequences. if you have not tuned in to these networks for a while, and why would you, you might have

missed an interesting development. fox and fox business actually aired real fact checks in prim time. last week fox business ran a pre-taped segment during lou dobbs show that appeared to debunk lies that he himself told about voting machines in the general election. >> have you seen any evidence that smartatic software was used to flip votes in the u.s. in this election? >> i have not seen any evidence that smartatic software was used to delete, change, alter anything related to vote tabulation. >> that went on for a few minutes, by the way. if you ever watched lou dobbs, you know how abnormal that is. newsmax, a fringier outlet less grounded in the truth than fox has been covering its tracks issuiing clarifications of its previous coverage. >> there are several facts that our viewers and readers should be aware of. news max found no evidence that

dominion or smartatic owns the other or has any business association with each other. we have no evidence that dominion uses smartatic software. or reprogrammed software that manipulated votes in the 2020 election. >> these clarifications and fact checks are completely the opposite of what those news out lets have been saying. the "new york times" media columnist ben smith says this is a direct result of legal threats made by two voting machine companies, smartatic, one of those companies demanded retractions and delivered legal notices to fox, news max and one american news network this month for statements made on air by hosts and guests. in its demand letter, smartatic stipulated that fox must make corrections on multiple occasions in prime time to match the attention and audience targeted with the original defamatory publications. fox news has engaged in a

concerted disinformation campaign against smartatic. fox news told its millions of viewers and readers that smartatic was founded by hugo chavez, that its software was designed to fix elections and that smartatic conspired with others to defraud the american people and fix the 2020 u.s. election by changing, inflating and deleting votes, end quote. these lies are insane. hugo chavez, who in case you lost track, has been dead since 2013. on wednesday, a law firm representing the other company, dominion voting systems, sent letters to the white house counsel and to president trump's lawyer, rudy giuliani, instructing them to preserve all records related to dominion. giuliani warned that legal action is imminent. it's not just the companies fighting back. a top dominion employee is suing the trump campaign, campaign

surrogates and news max and one america alleging definition. eric cumer had to go into hiding after being the subject of white thing conspiracies. his lawsuit accuses these outlets of distributing emotional distress and conspiracy. the conspiracies were so absurd ben smith thought they would never go anywhere. that's the problem with disinformation in general and specifically in the trump era. the lies move from the fringes of society, to the fringes of social media to the fringes of social movement and then to the mainstream of the social movement and then to the president whose favorite past time is watching cable tv. it did not have to be this way. conservative outlets could have just been conservative but truthful. fox and news max and one america

could have espoused real conservative theory but instead they lied and smartatic won't let them get away with those lies. they have retained eric connelly, who won the largest definition settlement in u.s. history for a beef producer who sued abc news for describing its lean textured beef to pink slime. columnist ben smith notes while fox should take the lawsuit seriously, they can weather the lawsuits. but news max and one america's lies may catch up with them. the outgoing president convinced us fake news is a to nom nophen which we're all a part. we're not a part of the fake news ecosystem. fake news comes from specific media outlets with a very specific agenda.

that agenda is not news. it is to further conservative talking points and the extreme right wing opinions of their corporate overlords. no matter the cost, even if it is democracy. asked if he would settle for an apology from the outlets, smartatic's founder said is the apology going to reverse the false belief of tens of millions of people who believe in these lies? that's the thing. an apology won't stop people from believing the lies. it won't stop right-wing outlets from lying about other things or lying about the same things in a different way. but legal action actually might. and not the kind of legal action that puts a chill on real journalism or the first amendment, just the kind that stops flat outlays. because it's about time that the outlets who have destroyed the minds of millions of americans with their toxic abhorrent lies face some consequences for all the real damage they have done. e

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your opinion about what has happened in the last week with smartatic and dominion voting systems where they had mainstream and fringe media retract and fact check their own disinformation. >> you know, i think our founding fathers would understand the current moment very, very well. this country was founded on the principle that economic power should not be concentrated because that takes away liberty. and one of the problems we have in media as we have in technology and many other sectors is that the power is

incredibly concentrated and there has been very little way for anyone to fight back. what we're seeing today is finally society realizing that we allowed our economy to have concentrated power in ways that are harming us in every aspect of our lives. >> one of the interesting things about this is, you know, on one hand i'm happy that they are suing liars who spread dangerous disinformation, which is incompatible with democracy. these lies are actually bad for democracy. on the other hand, as you know, you and i are both first amendment guys. we are proud of america's right to free speech. how do you manage this so that you don't end up with people suing people just because they have opinions you don't like? the smartatic and dominion issue is not about bad opinion, it's about bad facts. >> i think we used to have a notion in television called the fairness doctrine that simply required that you allow both

sides of an issue to be presented at any point in time. what happened was when that was eliminated in a wave of deregulation, it became possible to create opinion-based television disguised as news. and essentially that same concept has been applied to social media where they use the first amendment as cover to allow them to essentially amplify the most extreme voices in society at the expense of society itself. the first amendment does not exist as something superior to all other rights. it's one of many rights. we have to have some balance. we have to consider the fact that harms that effect all of society are -- should require some remedy. >> do you get some sense by the way that we're moving towards some remedy with respect to possible antitrust action that's being taken against took and google? regular folks don't think about

this as antitrust because we think of antitrust when somebody provides us as a service gathers too much power. but really information is the new oil or cell phone prices or airline ticket prices. >> that's precisely correct. again, the founding fathers very much hated monopoly. they felt that entrepreneurial capitalism was a way to enforce freedom, to give lots of choices to people. and that worked until the industrial revolution when the whole economy changed in a way that allowed concentration of power. the antitrust laws were in response to that. they were about breaking up concentrations of power and they addressed two kinds. one kind was the kinds of concentrated power that hurt everyone, like price fixing. they made that a crime. you could go to jail for it. a second kind was about discrimination. and 80 years after that there's been a ton of cases to break up

concentrated power. the information revolution was another change as great as the industrial revolution. and the consequence of that has been that google and facebook now control essentially communications in the united states. and they have the ability to take away peoples self determination because they can use all of the data they gathered and all the algorithms they have to manipulate our perception of the world. that's what we're having response to. this week was a huge week or last week because finally we're seeing antitrust cases coming to market. some of them are very dangerous for both google and facebook. >> we will talk more about this as it develops, roger. thanks for joining me, marlee ea particularly early from the west coast. after a quick break, we'll bring

you another update from nashville where federal officials are investigating a christmas day bombing and i'll speak to congresswoman debbie dingell about the covid relief bill that is stuck in congress. velshi continues after this. s. is maximum strength cold and flu medicine with soothing honey-licious taste. nyquil honey. the nighttime, sniffling, sneezing, coughing, aching, stuffy head, fever best sleep with a cold medicine. but today there's a combination of two immunotherapies you can take first.

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