for a limited time get a 5th cartridge free. hi there, everyone. happy labor day. it's 4:00 in the east. with republicans now traipsing into the arms of the most extreme elements of the gop base with the law that all the bans of abortion in texas and turns neighbors and friends into bounty hunters, the question is this, what are democrats going to with their control of the u.s. house of representatives, the u.s. senate and the white house to protect reproductive freedoms not just for the women of texas but for all the women in this country? that is now the critical legacy making question for the party and for the biden administration as we head into the final months

of 2021. grappling with how to protect women in the wake of the supreme court's audacious refusal to block a law that all but bans abortion in america's second largest state. blocking the largest anti-abortion group, texas right to life, from using the abortion ban to sue planned parenthood. as "the new york times" is reporting, quote, the order's reach is narrow and set to expire september 17th. 11 days from today. abortion rights activists assess their limited options to fight back against the ban. public opinion and ads like this from best-selling author and activist don winslow are likely a preview of what's to come in terms of motivating women and democratic voters to activism. watch. >> if i'm beaten and raped in

the state of texas, i have to give birth to the baby of my rapist. if i am raped by my father, brother or uncle and get pregnant in the state of texas, i have to give birth to the baby of my abuser. this law is so draconian i can be prosecuted for having an abortion and so can my doctor, friends and advisers and even the uber driver who simply drives me to the clinic. this is madness. the same people protesting and screaming my body, my choice when it comes to the covid vaccine are now saying i don't have any control over my own body. shame on the men and women who passed this law, and shame on anyone who sits in silence while women suffer and die because of it. >> that ad has had more than 2 million views and is likely to represent the tip of the sphere in activating the same voices and people who spilled into the streets of the nation's capital and cities across the country in 2016 and 2017 after donald

trump's election and inauguration. but so far the silence from corporate america on the texas abortion law has been deafening. "the new york times" reached out to two dozen major companies, many of which have taken the stand on issues like racial justice and voting rights that either declined to comment or refused to reply to them. among those that would not say something were mcdonald's, a sponsor of international women's day, pwc, a major supporter of diversity and inclusion efforts, and coca-cola and delta airlines, which led a corporate backlash last year against a restrictive voting bill in georgia where they have their headquarters. many of the biggest employers in texas, including at&t, oracle, phillips 66 declined to comment. even companies that are quick to speak up on social issues including patagonia and levi's did not say anything about the new law. and "the washington post" is

reporting on the tiny handful of companies that have taken action in light of the texas abortion ban, quote, uber and lyft said they would cover legal fees for drivers sued under the law. meanwhile, the web hosting provider godaddy told texas right to life to find a different provider for pro-lifewhistle-blower.com, a site that invites supporters of the law to report people who help women. saying the supreme court's refusal to block the texas law as a reason to launch a new wave of abortion bans all across this country. nbc news reports that, quote, the ripple effect after texas' highly restrictive anti-abortion law went into effect was immediate. within 24 hours legislators in at least six states -- florida, arkansas, indiana, mississippi, north dakota and south dakota expressed interest in

introducing similar legislation. all of this bringing us back to our original question, what are democrats going to do to protect abortion rights? president biden has promised a, quote, whole of government response to the law and already some are laying out what that should look like. in an op-ed in "the washington post" law professor urges doj to prosecute vigilantes who use the law sue thy neighbor clause who goes after anyone who helps a woman get an abortion. the texas legislature and five supreme court justices have joined forces. the legislature by creating and the justices by leaving in place a system of private bounties designed to intimidate all who would help women exercise the right to choose. the federal government has and should use its own powers including criminal prosecution to prevent a law from being enforced and to reduce its chilling effects.

the fight to protect abortion rights in america and questions about the political potency of republicans beginning the process of overturning roe v. wade is where we start this hour. former senator claire mccaskill is here. also joining us political reporter for axios and matt miller is back, former chief spokesman for the justice department. lucky for us, all three msnbc contributors. claire, what do you make of the state of affairs here on this labor day? >> well, the supreme court has done something that is far beyond what i imagined they would do. i was very worried about roe v. wade standing in light of the case from mississippi that they're going to hear in a few weeks. but the notion that in the shadow docket, in the dark of night, they would have this kind of statutory bs is startling because, make no mistake, they put a bow on a law that says you

no longer have to have standing to bring a social grievance to court. all you have to do is think you have some kind of proof that somebody intended to help somebody get an abortion. imagine a mother who is trying to help their 13-year-old daughter when she just found out that this daughter had been repeatedly raped by her boyfriend. imagine her being the one that is pulled into court and asked to pay money she clearly would not have and legal expenses she would not have just for trying to help her daughter under those circumstances. it's very extreme. and i think it's politically very bad for the republicans that they have gone this far and it appears there's no stopping this element of the republican party. now what the democrats need to do is, yes, fight back, but, also, make sure they elevate this issue so every woman in

america understands what these folks are doing. >> claire, you've lived the potency of this extreme element of the republican party in front of voters in missouri. i mean, can you talk a little bit more about where that line is for american voters -- not just the folks we talk about, the right and the left, but in the middle. this is a majority issue. i think 60% plus of americans support abortion in all or most cases. this is not just a ban on -- 85% of abortions happen after six weeks. this is a point where most women do not know they're pregnant yet. if anything they've missed one period, and even if they do, two weeks is not really the amount of time, especially in the dire circumstances you're describing, to make a plan and find a provider. can you talk about both the real world politics of it and the real world tragedy of what will start happening in texas?

>> this is a direct symptom of what has happened in our politics in that everyone is only talking to, listening to, hearing from people they agree with. our media has become so stratified that you can go hang out in a corner of social media, a corner of the internet, a corner of cable news and just think everybody agrees with you. and the vast majority of americans would reject this law on its face. the extreme nature of this law is what would, i believe, 80% or plus would say of course there should be an exception for rape and incest, and that was, in fact, the issue that got me re-elected. i had an opponent so extreme on the issue it frightened many republican women in this state to say, no, we're not going to -- we're not crazy about her,

but we're not going with this guy. he's too far extreme. and just this idea, this personhood, that this is going to be a result of what texas has done, no. it's already happened. that's the law in my state. if roe falls, then immediately missouri it's a question whether you can have an in vitro child or get the morning after pill. the morning roe falls in missouri life begins at the moment of conception, so no morning after pill, no unused embryos and in vitro fertilization. think of the families who would not have children if we make ivf illegal. >> claire, can i ask you a sensitive political question? why does it feel like republicans with control of state legislatures and many governorships are having more

malevolent impact on american life than democrats with control of the house, the senate and the white house? >> well, i think it is because, nicolle, because the legislatures that are doing this are very lopsided. they are not anywhere near 50/50. they are dominated most often in a veto-proof majority with republicans. and so the fight in those states is all about who win as primary. it's not about the independent voters that you have to get in a general. and that is the problem. what we have in washington, yes, we control it, but just by a hair. so all of the democrats that are there from very red places, from purple places, they are careful about calibrating what they're doing based on who they represent. now is that frustrating? of course it is. are there things biden can do through doj? of course there are.

i think this law, which, frankly, was written to go after the ku klux klan because right now the right to choose is a constitutional right according to roe v. wade. that is the law of the land. right now anybody who is interfering with that right could be brought up under this law that was referenced in the op-ed in the opening. there are things doj can do. they need to bring up a codification to put people on the spot that are pro-choice and are republicans in democratic areas. we need to be aggressive, but we need to be realistic. this is about us winning elections. and what they're doing in texas will help us win elections. >> i hope you're right. there are so many stories from the weekend i want to go through with all three of you. i first want to get your reaction. is this a wake-up call? is this a bridge too far? tell me your thoughts in sort of digesting this news late last

week. >> yeah, i think claire is right. this is an issue democrats want to feel energized by and motivate their base with in elections. historically you all know very well reproductive rights and the anti-abortion stance has been something republicans have relied on even when it wasn't a mainstreamish be you to support from their base in statewide senate races, in battleground states. it's, of course, something they will try again. democrats are seeing this idea we've all talked about for so long in practice now, that even with donald trump gone, this idea of trump-ism remains. these trumpian state lawmakers, republicans pushing really restrictive, as some have called them draconian abortion rights as you played in the ad earlier that represents this political style that isn't gone even though donald trump isn't still at the helm and claire just brought up a good point about putting pro-choice republicans in democratic districts on the spot, on the record voting for this women's health protection act which house democrats will

bring up for a vote by the end of the month. something that i'm thinking about, nicolle, these house democrats who are running -- going to be running in the statewide senate races in pennsylvania and florida. and if they're voting, which i'm sure they will, in favor of this act, it will be curious to see how republicans try to go after them for the vote they're going to take in the house as they're running in what will be contentious statewide races already. >> matt, i guess what must be exasperating for democrats is this is about republicans as counter constitutional. they're the extremes. and i think what republicans and pro-life activists have been successful at in the last two decades is turning choice into the radical position. there's no scenario where that is plausible to anyone with a millimeter of sort of information about what's happened in texas, and i have

two questions for you. one, were all of the nominees for the supreme court lying when they said they viewed roe as settled law? and, two, what do you make of the small step that the justice department said it would take today? i'll put up the headline basically saying it will not tolerate violence against anyone trying to obtain an abortion in texas. >> with respect to the justices, lying is one way to look at it. being very careful in how they promise what they're going to do is another. i suspect when we get to the end of not just this case but the mississippi case, i've never thought the supreme court will come right out and reverse roe vs. wade but will gut it through a series of cases, this being the first one, the mississippi law the court will take up this term will be another. and you'll see a series of case that is allow the court to do the same thing unless the court is reformed. with respect to the department of justice, the statement they put out today was a heartening one, an important one, it really

related to physical violence, people try to physically prevent people from accessing their constitutional right to an abortion by preventing them from going into a clinic. and it's important that the department said that because every time this issue is in the news, the threat of violence does, unfortunately, rise at clinics and the department has an obligation to police that. but it doesn't really promise any new action with respect to the courts. i think the problem we have here is the department does have limited ability here. i think what really needs to happen we need to see an increase in private litigants operating or pursuing as many legal theories as possible in as many courts as possible, state and federal, so the department has a chance to come in both for legal reasons to try to get this law enjoined and for political reasons to raise the ceiling of this issue. we've been discussing it since your first question. abortion has always been an

issue where americans support the right to choose, but the salience has been on the republican side and it has the potential to change it and has the potential to galvanize americans who support abortion rights because, as claire said, i think very few people would support a law like this one that criminalizes abortion even in the cases of rape and incest. >> i think it's just so disheartening for, first of all, the women of texas, to wait for that process. what matt is describing is a process similar to the legal challenges to voting rights legislation which as we know from the georgia law could take years to wind its way through. i want to turn to the supreme court. claire, you and i were on for a couple confirmations and i want to show you something senator klobuchar said in the vein of retirements. >> i believe if he is seriously considering retirement and he has said he would do it based on not only his own health but the

future of the court, if this decision doesn't cry out for that, i don't know what does. i think if he's going to do it sooner rather than later and, again, as you know, dana, that will not change the results necessarily but at least it doesn't put it at 7-2. >> that was senator klobuchar, claire, when asked about justice breyer retiring while president biden is in office, and i want to bring up the third rail of all that is sacred not just to democrats but to anyone that values tenure. what are the feelings among democrats about justice ginsburg's decision not to retire during president obama's tenure? >> well, it would be -- you would have to do something seriously to threaten me to get me to say anything bad about justice ginsburg, first of all. >> i'm not asking you to say anything bad, she's revered. would we be in this position if she retired? >> obviously if she retired

under the democratic president we would not be in this position. if we had the majority in the senate, which we did for a period of time late in her life when she was struggling with some chronic illnesses, but, like i said, i think what i'd rather focus on right now is what mitch mcconnell did to block merrick garland and most importantly what kennedy did with his strategic retirement in order to stack the court for a more conservative view. and really what we ought to focus on is this ridiculous hypocrisy of precedent. this is 50 years of precedent in the court. 50 years. so not only did these five justices throw out 50 years, they did it in the dark. they did it with a couple of paragraphs and they did it for a law that not only decimates roe,

it does it like with fireworks,a way that bastardizes -- i don't know if that's a word -- does bad stuff to our system creating a new thing in american law. we're going to allow citizens to be vigilantes on social grievances. end of discussion. and that's the excuse they hid behind in not staying the law. it is nutso. and that was kavanaugh and that was barrett. so i am sick of the federalist society giving me any of this load of crap about how they respect precedent and how you can't legislate from the bench. that's what these guys are doing right now. >> alexi, to your point about trump-ism, this really is the twice impeached disgraced ex-president sort of rising from

the political grave and having his way with american life in 2021 because the reality is whether we focus on the future and justice breyer, and i'm sure claire represents the view of the vast number of democrats. there are women in texas today who feel like their lives are over. some men, too. not all women seeking abortion are victims of incest and rape. women have a right to an abortion even if those tragedies are not what has come to pass. that is no longer the case for 85% of women seeking abortions in texas. what happens here and now for them? >> it's a frightening reality, as you said. their lives have completely changed almost overnight. and i think that's an important point to underscore, nicolle. a lot of women who seek abortions aren't necessarily in these tragic, harrowing situations as some are where it's a case of incest or rape. some are trying to make what they consider to be a

responsible, smart, financial decision, life decision, a decision with their partner, their doctor that they agonized over to get there. so it's not always these extreme situations where people are forced into these decisions to get an abortion. i think your point is right, nicolle. this is now treating abortion or access to health care as a crime not as a fundamental right that women are afforded any longer in the state of texas potentially moving forward in the state of mississippi, and i think that's where you're going to see a lot of these political fights play out in the coming years, too, with a focus on health care. democrats have consistently tried to expand access to health care, to lower costs. republicans, of course, have tried to strike down the aca, leave folks with pre-existing conditions without coverage and now in states where they're made to feel less than. >> matt, what is opaque to us in terms of what might be going on

at the justice department that might hearten folks who are feeling desperate and disheartened by this decision? >> you know, i think they have a lot of very smart people who spent the weekend trying to find creative answers here, but ultimately the problem is any solution that you come up with to this ruling fails against the same challenge. when you have a supreme court majority that is hostile to a woman's constitutional right to choose what to do with her own body and that's where we exist today. congress could pass a law. it would be struck down. a lower court could come up with a promising ruling. it could be struck down by the supreme court. as long as you don't address the fundamental problem, every other victory can be one. justice ginsburg should have retired in 2013 or 2014 when democrats were urging her and when the white house wanted her to. if she had, this decision would have gone another way. justice breyer should retire now while there's still a democratic

majority in the senate that can confirm his replacement and democrats in the senate either this term or the next time we have unified control of the government should look to reform the supreme court and reform the filibuster to guarantee that a woman's right to choose, which has been constitutional law for 50 years now, is upheld because everything else that we talk about ultimately can be struck down by the supreme court majority and i suspect will be unless we're not just principled but smart and strategic with how we approach the issue. >> i think that's the bottom line. i think we can't lose sight in our political analysis of the daily hell now that is any woman who doesn't have this choice available to her and, of course, most tragically young victims of incest or rape. every woman in texas is a victim of all of that. alexi, matt, thank you for starting us off. claire is sticking around for the hour and then some. when we come back, it's been exactly eight months since the insurrection at the united states capitol and gop leader kevin mccarthy continues to try

to thwart the investigation into, you know, just what led to that day. the committee is pressing on. the bipartisan leaders on that commission calling him out for what they say is his, quote, january 6th misinformation campaign. plus, experts warn of catastrophic harm to our health if washington does nothing about climate change. we'll ask a lawmaker how d.c. can finally get something done. and later in the show, everything is bigger and it would turn out scarier in texas. going all in serving up red meat to the conservative base with a bevy of new and unpopular laws. all those stories and more when "deadline white house" continues after a quick break. e" continues after a quick break. we did it again. verizon has been named america's most reliable network by rootmetrics. and our customers rated us #1 for network quality in america according to j.d. power. number one in reliability, 16 times in a row. most awarded for network quality, 27 times in a row.

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i think to turn around and make ominous talk to these telecom companies that when we take over it's going to be different or we'll have payback, that's just not, frankly, the republican party i remember and the republican party i ever joined. if we're going to be in charge and pushing conspiracy and division and pushing lies, then the republican party should not have the majority. >> who is going to tell him? with great power comes great responsibility of putting truth over conspiracy. that was republican congressman adam kinzinger on his party's duty to openly and honestly resist the dismissal of truth and truth tellers like house minority leader kevin mccarthy's retaliatory threats against tech companies asked by the january 6 select committee to preserve relevant data to which a group

of 11 gop members, some targeted by the committee, are now seeking to double down with their own threats to these tech companies. and it's just the latest move from the gop and leader kevin mccarthy to block the investigation into what happened on the day of the deadly insurrection. over the week committee vice chair, republican liz cheney, joined chairman and democratic member of congress bennie thompson in shooting down mccarthy's suggestion last week that the doj found trump had, quote, no involvement in the insurrection. they both called it baseless and inconsistent with mccarthy's own statements from the week following the january 6th insurrection. joining our coverage betsy woodruff swann, also an msnbc contributor. claire is still here. betsy, i don't like to ask where the line is for any house

democrats but i guess what i'll ask you it feels like it was an open secret among chris wallace who pushed kevin mccarthy, among liz cheney, who dangled this information about kevin mccarthy needing to be a fact witness. now among people covering jim jordan who is humming about how many times and when he talked to donald trump. what is the operating thesis on what they're hiding as it regards records? >> what the select committee is looking for is any sort of phone records showing when and for how long these republican members of congress had calls or text messages with people in the white house. or those in front of the capitol building. they will show when the phone calls happened. they show how long, if there was

a voice mail left, missed calls. the wrong time of material. they will have the contents of voice mails and text messages. it will get more clarity in tirms of who was talking to who, before and after that horrific attack. >> i guess how much more is there? mccarthy has detail his call. what was said on that call that mccarthy was told by trump, these insurrectionists care more about the result than you do, kevin. jim jordan talked about talking with him all day. what else do we think there is? is there complicity? what else is there? >> that's a good question.

i spoke with a republican congressional source today about the backlash from the house republicans toward this preservation request and they said republicans are freaking out about the fact the select committee might be getting their phone records. it certainly is generating an immense amount in the house republican conference. what they may be able to do but the person i spoke with today said it's more likely they will try to retaliate against democrats. that source said if they flip in the midterm elections there will be substantial pressure from the rank and file and from these far right republican members who have more influence than ever on house republican leadership to find some sort of reason to try

to scoop up the private phone records of democratic members of congress. >> i mean, claire, i hope that democrats can't be threatened and intimidated and misdirected in that way. they sought the records of mcgann while he was white house counsel testifying against donald trump. they sought the phone records of eric swalwell and adam schiff and "the washington post" and "the new york times." i hope democrats' response is come get us. we're still looking for your records and your communications on the day of the insurrection at the u.s. capitol. >> yeah, who cares if they go after democrats' records? if you run for office, can i be a witness here? everything in your life, even things that happened way before

you met people you loved, all of it comes out in the public. this notion they will be afraid to get to the truth, they might be texting an old boyfriend or something, who cares? i'll tell you what's on those records we haven't seen. imagine if you have a cell phone and you realize that people are trying to physically breach the capitol and shouting they want to hang the vice president. the text phone numbers of kushner or ivanka or kellyanne conway or donald trump. you are texting them saying stop it. stop the madness, we're frightened. they're after us. that's what they're worried about. i believe this from lindsey

graham to kevin mccarthy and back that have all kinds of communications trying to get trump to call off the mob. and you know what? trump liked it. and they couldn't get him to say what he needed to say to stop it. so that police officers weren't in a situation where somebody was trying to gouge their eyes out with a flagpole. he liked it. and that's what ken mccarthy has admitted. that's what kevin mccarthy has said and his imitation of a mob boss is not going to make that go away. >> right. after all their pleading and what not, i'm sure you're right, claire. he sent out a message saying we love you. so that's how impactful they were. we'll stay on it. betsy, thank you so much for spending some time with us. claire is sticking around. the calls for serious action on climate change are growing louder from fires and droughts out west to flooding and

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for years, i struggled with anxiety and depression. but when i was ready for help, finding the right care was nearly impossible. luckily, he had us. as mental health professionals, we could help him navigate the system. not everyone has that. that's why i started cerebral. online mental healthcare, without the high cost and wait times. with our affordable care model, you can get meds prescribed and delivered. and talk with a licensed therapist on your own time. with cerebral, everyone gets a care team. get your first month for just $30 at getcerebral.com. we are definitely beginning to see the impacts of climate change. this storm intensified so rapidly in the atlantic or in the gulf that emergency managers, emergency responders

had even a shorter time to warn the public and help get them out of harm's way this is going to be our new normal. last year was a record number of hurricanes and a record wildfire season and it's only going to continue to get worse. this is the crisis of our generation, these impacts that we're seeing from climate change, and we have to act now to try to protect against the future risks that we're going to face. >> that is fema administrator deanne criswell and what we can continue to expect as climate change becomes our new normal. with louisiana still suffering from the storm many residents there without power and they will be for several more days. the biden administration today is declaring a disaster in both new york city and the entire state of new jersey. authorizing federal funds after the devastating and deadly floods from ida last week. president biden will be touring

those hard-hit areas tomorrow afternoon. pu there are calls to do more. three new wildfires emerging yesterday in california and extreme heat and drought rapidly drying up the colorado river threatening access for 40 million people. they have come together to declare the greatest threat is the continued failure of world leaders to keep temperatures down. joining us a member of the judiciary committee as well as the house select committee on the climate crisis. his state has been hard hit from fires and drought. i want to talk to your state and then will turn to washington. this is something you wrote about climate change. the american west is facing a devastating wildfire season. only 4.9 million acres have

burned surpassing the acreage burned in all of 2018. our communities cannot wait for action. the 2020 wildfire season was the second most destructive in u.s. history and the worst in colorado history. three of the largest colorado has ever witnessed happened last year. the state experienced some of the worst air quality in the world as well as fatal flash flooding within the cameron burn scar. threatening lives, health and property. i know a lot of people have been working on this issue for a long time. they wonder what can be done in colorado and across this country now. >> it's good to be with you, nicolle. you described the visceral impacts to folks across our country and indeed the world experience every day.

we're at an inflection point in louisiana, the devastation in new york and new jersey and as you said the historic unprecedented wildfires my community has experienced. two of the three largest in colorado both happening in my congressional districts a mere 11 months ago. i think what the scientists are telling us in the form of the ipcc report released a few weeks ago and in the article you mentioned just a few days ago released previously what we're seeing with our own eyes that climate change is not some crisis that is going to occur at some unspecified date into the future. it's happening now. it is here now impacting our lives and it is critically important for policymakers in washington to muster the political will to do something about it. i am grateful, nicolle, for the first time in a long time we are poised to do precisely that to build back a better plan the congress is working on.

>> can you play that forward for us? how does that work? what happens immediately and what else would you like to see happen in the near term? >> sure. >> it is this red alert for humanity, right, in terms of really motivating us to do everything we can on a very short runway to avoid the more catastrophic in climate change. the $3.5 trillion reconciliation bill as has been outlined and is being marked up as we speak in the house, i believe meets the moment. it includes a clean energy standard at the federal level the first time in our country's history, a program that emulates the 1930s era program, something i've worked on the better part of the last year and a half with the senator from oregon, a state also experienced devastating wildfires and includes a herculean investment in ev infrastructure across our country. were we to get this across the

finish line it would be transformational and would go a long way in putting us on the path to moving the needle in the fight against climate change. >> this is another issue like voting rights, like reproductive freedoms so completely fractured along partisan lines. they wouldn't be seeing the devastating impact to human lives, to the economy of climate change. do you have conversations that maybe we don't see with republicans? do they see this the same way you do? >> there are some republicans who are interested in ultimately working on this issue. i must confess the fact remains there are many on the other side of the aisle who simply refuse to believe the science and are obstinate in terms of doing anything about it. it's quite confounding. they are just as hard hit in terms of flash flooding and

wildfires and hurricane threats to our coastal areas and so forth. one would hope to adapt to adopt some of these solutions, as you know from your time in washington there's a tendency for policymakers to look at various policy problems, challenges in a myopic way. of course what distinguishes climate change in other policy issues impacts every aspect of our lives and way of life and the world that our children will inherit. we will keep pushing. we're not going to wait. we're going to ensure we take decisive action in the next nine weeks and i suspect that you will see a bill signed by the president that is the most transformational. >> it's just amazing. under the umbrella of not believing the science so many of these issues fall with the republican party.

congressman, thank you so much for spending some time with us on this holiday. nice to see you. when we come back what we're witnessing in texas may be just the beginning if washington democrats don't begin to aggressively use the power that voters have given them. that's next. n them that's next. i've spent centuries evolving with the world. some changes made me stronger. others, weaker. that's the nature of being the economy. i've observed investors navigating the unexpected,

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holding on to both the presidency and congress, republicans still wield a lot of power in this country. as "the washington post" op-ed team writes, quote, the past few days have provided a vivid example of how the country's two major parties exercise political power. on the one hand, democrats hold congress in the white house but they've hit the brakes on a signature spending package and the extension of still-needed unemployment benefits. on the other, republicans hold only the supreme court but are closer than ever to fundamentally changing the nation's abortion laws. let's bring into our conversation basil michael, democratic strategist and director of the policy program. "washington post", fair or not fair? >> no, i think it is incredibly fair. look, you know, we as democrats have sort of cultivated a base that is ideas oriented and fair, but the truth is for the majority of the disenfranchised

and disadvantaged groups that we represent, they don't want us -- they don't want to see us having power and not using it. i would love to get the merrick garland moment back. hell i would want all of 2016 back. but, you know, we have to -- we are in this position where historically presidents have gotten a lot done. lbj passed anti-poverty programs, bill clinton passed nafta, obama passes the affordable care act which has proven to be a resilient piece of legislation. we may do this. it may violate some of the, i don't know, principles we have tried to build our base upon, but the truth is we need to do it. >> yeah, i mean, look, obviously i spent my time in the republican party. i have voted straight party line democratic since 2016, and all i expect is that y'all keep winning. what i see is a president who is capable of blocking out the

noise. i mean what he did on covid relief was transformational. but i see in the senate paralysis and an obsession with process. i mean this texas ban happened because of an obsession with ideological policies. the democrats seem constantly wrapped around the axle of process and i wonder how you switch that. >> you know, it is a problem because on the one hand we -- i go back to my earlier point in talking about fairness, we also think about process. but, you know, at the same time i look at the fact that, you know, what has happened in texas, number one, the sort of attempt to roll back what has already happened in terms of rolling back voting rights in this country, and in a post-obama environment i know when i was running the party there were a lot of folks that were saying from my colleagues across the country that we don't even have the infrastructure on the ground to make sure that these changes that are positive for us stay in effect in our state houses. so there's a sort of broad

infrastructure question that the party needs to address. there's this fight that we want our leaders to fight. we saw this when there were questions about accountability in the first trump impeachment, right. so are we going to actually do this? so, yeah, i mean i understand the need and the desire to focus on process, but sometimes i look back and say, "why are we the only ones playing by the rules?" if we want to get anything done, then we have just got to force the change. >> yeah. and i mean i guess if you take voting rights or you take reproductive freedoms, democrats feel like they're fighting on the republican's turf. let's, you know, have mark elias fight it, let's have merrick garland file one lawsuit in georgia. why not pass a massive new voting rights legislation to deal with anything born out of the big lie that led to the deadly insurrection? why not codify what is already constitutionally protected right to choice? why not be bigger? >> no, and that's absolutely

right, because if i think about the way that joe biden ran for president, you know, there was this promise that he would work across the aisle. nobody is really interested in working with us, you know, from the other side of the aisle. >> no. >> you know, they are focused on a massive cultural shift and change in this country, and you're right. why can't we do the same? why can't we talk about it? there's this fear that we may be punished by it, but the truth is that i think that the potential to gain more support, to get more enthusiasm out of our base because we've actually accomplished something will override and overcome what negative fall-out there will be. i appreciate everything that joe biden and the congress has done thus far. we still have a long way to go, particularly with respect to this pandemic. but, you know, as a gen xer i was commiserating with a friend. i don't know when the supreme court is going to change in my lifetime. >> yeah.

>> it is a generational change. it is a change that has taken place for a generation, and that's scary because texas is not going to be isolated. that's why, you know, it is important that we -- what power we have, we've got to use it. >> well, and if you look at how chief justice roberts votes sometimes, it is a sign of how radical the rest of them are. >> that's right. >> it is a sign of how extreme the republican party has become. when he was named chief justice it was for his conservative bona fides, but he more often sees the side of the liberal justice. unfortunately, think you're right. thank you for coming out and spending time with us on a holiday monday. the next hour of "deadline: white house" starts after a very short break. don't go anywhere. we are just getting started. we are just getting started.

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they really do have the ability to appeal on very conservative issues. they choose not to. they choose to support white supremacy. they choose to go to the far right. they choose to do those things that actually isolate the majority of what texas looks like. just to be clear, gop, i know you know this but maybe the rest of the country doesn't know this, that texas is a majority minority state. it is time to start to pass policies that will respect each and every texan instead of a select few. >> hi again, everybody. everything is bigger in texas including the state's lurch to the far right with a wave of new laws now going into effect. about this phenomenon, dan balls

of "the washington post" writes this, quote. texas is an example of the balkanization of the country, as red and blue states push further and further apart in the policy these embrace and enact. no state of note, however, has gone as far in one direction as texas. in that way it is a model for those who cheer those policies. whether it becomes a political object lesson is now the question. so let's examine today's republican priorities with texas leading the way. those new texas policies include the most restrictive abortion law in the country, outlawing abortions after six weeks with no exceptions for rape or incest and where fellow citizens can receive a $10,000 bounty for turning in anyone who performs or aids and abets an abortion. there's the law allowing any texan, and we mean any texan, above the age of 21 to carry a handgun in public without training and without a license.

texas also enacted a law that limits school discussions on our country's history regarding race and racism. there's a new law requiring professional sports teams to play the national anthem at home games. and about that restrictive voting measure which now bans 24-hour and drive-through voting, empowers partisan poll watchers and restricts voting by mail, it will soon become law. while carving out space as the nation's most anti-choice governor, texas's greg abbott cannot lay claim to being pro life. no. not by a long shot. the texas governor's reckless disregard for the health of his citizens is decidedly pro-disease and death indifferent for those living in texas including that state's children. while asking for help in his state's overflowing icus, abbott is stridently opposed to life-saving measures like vaccine and mask mandates, and that's even as the virus surges

in texas schools turning texas children into latest victims of abbott's anti-science world view. "texas tribune" writes this, quote, from august 23rd to august 29th there were more than 27,000 new positive covid cases among students in texas public schools. that's according to the texas department of state health services, making it the biggest one-week increase in the entire pandemic. the state reports nearly 52,000 cases among students and 13,000 among staff since the school year began. the rising case numbers forcing at least 45 school districts to temporarily stop in-person classes. in fact, one district in central texas closed its schools until after the labor day weekend after two teachers died of covid within a week of each other. all of this adding up to a state whose governing policies don't

match the will of its people. according to a new survey from the texas politics project at the university of texas-austin, for the first time in its polling history a majority of texans say that the state is on the wrong track, a position echoed in an editorial by the "austin american statesman" which reads, quote, here, abbott outflanking his right-wing rivals in next year's gubernatorial primary has become more important than serving the neither, even protecting the lives of all texans. here, self-governance is not about serving the good of the community but bolstering the ability of certain individuals to impose their will on others. governing for the good of the majority isn't rocket science. it is the whole idea of a democracy, in fact. too bad our governor still doesn't see that. the texas republican party serving up a buffet of red meat for its base is where we start this hour with some of our most favorite friends.

political strat zwris matt dowd is here. matt is the founder of country over party. also back with us, former senator claire mccaskill, msnbc political analyst, and texas state representative ron reynolds is here. i will start with you, representative. what is going on in texas? >> well, nicolle, happy labor day. unfortunately, many in the republican leadership, it is a race to see who can outflank who in the next republican primary with red meat appeasing the trumpites. it is no longer about what is best for public policy. it is how to go to the far extreme where you don't believe in science and you don't believe in good public policy, but what is far right and can appease to their base. so we should be focusing on issues like health care and covid recovery and medicaid expansion, but we're focused on those red meat issues that you laid out in your opening monologue. i think that they are putting politics over the people, and it is unpatriotic and certainly

untexan. >> i want to, representative, put your governor abbott's approval rating. only 41% of texans approve of him. 50% disapprove. 41% of them strongly disapprove. in a normal moment in our country's politics -- and i know this is anything but that -- leaving your state to fend for itself, leaving the power grid through political considerations and neglect, would be a political death knell. i wonder if you could explain to our viewers what holds abbott up to 41%? >> well, nicolle, quite frankly governor abbott is auditioning for potential president, and he's in a race with the governor in the race to the bottom when it comes to this -- to covid recovery and covid response, but they're pandering to the far right. the only audience he seems to be concerned about is not the 39 million texans, not the majority of the state, but the small,

less than 10% of the population that votes in republican primaries. so no longer is he concerned about being the governor, but he is concerned about how he can win a primary. that is -- that is so disturbing because, as you laid out, there are people who are dying literally every day, school children, and he is fighting schools from mask mandates. he is fighting local governments and county commissioners for instituting vaccine mandates, all to appease the base that doesn't believe in science. so what he is doing is not caring about the majority of texans. he is only literally concerned about the small fringe of the far right that can help him be reelected to governor and, hopefully for him, to win a republican primary. so this is the step that he is looking at. he's not really looking at governance the way it should be but the way that it can help him win a primary. i hope that voters will wake up and realize the importance of

the vote and the reason why elections matter and elections have consequences. you have a governor that's out of touch with a majority of the state, and that pollack yurtly reflect the disgust that many texans like myself and democrats and independents and even many republicans have of governor abbott right now. >> yeah, i mean, matt dowd, i want to read you some more about what is happening in the state. if you could just speak to this -- his policy priorities are loathsome but his political considerations probably being served by the efficiency of ramming through voter restrictions, having the most restrictive abortion ban in the country, being the first state to begin the process of overturning roe v. wade. what do you make of the victims who are the people and, as the representative is saying, even school kids in the state of texas? >> well, it is great to be on from texas even though our name has been -- i love the state but i hate our politics right now. i absolutely hate our politics and the failure of the gop

politicians. nicolle, let me give you three instances which i will describe and you are going to think it is absolutely ludicrous but it is totally true. we have an election which is the most -- biggest turnout election in texas, the most secure election described by everybody that has investigated it. a big lie develops from it. we have an insurrection at the u.s. capitol based on the big lie, and what is the gop in texas's response that? it is to lie about it and then try to stop people from voting, try to make it harder for people to vote. another issue, guns. we've had mass shooting after mass shooting after mass shooting in texas and around the country but in texas at a walmart, along a road, at a church, and what is the gop of texas's response to that? make it easier to openly carry a gun without training or a license. texas has more uninsured women

and children without health care choice than any other state in the union by far, that lack of health care choice. what is the response to that? roll over roe v. wade and take away one of the final health care choices a woman has in this. so when you look at all of the panoply of this across the bore, you would think this is a joke, this can't be true. as the representatives say it is not 10% of the state they're concerned about, it is 5% of the state they're concerned about. i have said this before on your show, but texas is a perfect example. they don't care about the common good, as you can see on voting, as you can see on choice, as you can see on health care, as you can see on covid. they don't care about the common good. they care about me and my 5% that i'm worried about in the republican primary. ultimately, the only way that stops is if they begin losing elections in the general election. it is not just about people of color. >> yeah. >> it is not just about women. it is not just about children.

ultimately, even the places that vote red are not going to be represented by what is going on in austin right now, by even the people that vote for republicans in a general election, because they don't care. >> and i guess, matt, before they rush to claim any sort of pro-life awards, they are so pro-disease, so indifferent to death and suffering even among children, what is happening in the schools is -- say this about desantis when it was happening there, it is the biggest national scandal. i want to read some of what is happening in terms of pediatric space in the hospitals. this is from houston public media. hospitals across the state are running low on pediatric intensive care unit beds. texas' department of state health services says only 81 beds remain. just a couple more hundred regular icu beds are available in the state of 29 million people. governor abbott has failed us. a republican state legislature

has failed us. that was dr. david portugal, a cardiologist in sugarland, texas. these leaders should be held accountable and be asked to ex play how they are taking actions killing citizens. that's a pediatric's view. i guess if pediatric icu's filled to capacity don't dent governor abbott, what are the chances of running callous people like him out of state government? >> well, you put up the poll numbers for governor abbott and i know you were saying 41%, why do they still support. keep in mind, that's the lowest number that governor abbott has ever polled at. he has usually always polled at 50% or higher, which is why he has won elections in the past. he is at a low point and i think it will go lower. he is exceedingly, in my view, vulnerable but he has to be vulnerable to a candidate with the right message and good

campaign. this is where i have a tendency sometimes to get frustrated with democrats who i'm advocating for, who need to win every office they possibly can especially here in texas because it is the only way to save our population and save our republic is to do that. but the problem is democrats often cede the messaging ground to republicans. democrats talk policy points and process, and republicans vote values. voters want to have values. they want to know you share the same values. democrats have to start talking about all of these issues, choice, code, all of these issues in a broad value context, and they should not cede as you just led in the ground of pro-life. republicans are not pro-life, they won't do anything about gun deaths. they won't do anything about covid. they won't do anything about health care. they won't even expand medicaid here where 90% of the cost would be born by the federal

government. they won't do it. it won't cost the state anything, but they won't do it because of some lack of compassion. but democrats fundamentally have to talk about this better. you can be pro-choice as i am and pro-life as i am and believe that a woman has a right to choose and it is her moral choice and it is her choice with her doctor to choose, but you also can simultaneously be pro-life and protecting women and children and people from guns and all of the other things on this. but i think democrats have to get much, much, much, much better, even progressives on this, having a values-based argument about what the republicans are doing are disconnected from american values and disconnected from the values us and a majority of us in texas believe in. >> claire, i want to show you something that congresswoman veronica escobar said on "face the nation" yesterday. we will talk about it on the other side. >> i'm afraid because of the

senate's desire to hang on to a relic of the past, the jim row filibuster, that while the house will move to protect women from states like texas and from a supreme court that is an activist court, my fear is that some members of the senate will use the filibuster as an excuse to not take action. and in the face of inaction we will see more death in texas. texas is now very dangerous place for women and children. we are going to see more states basically import this law and do everything possible to create the most hostile conditions for women in our country. >> claire, are her concerns well-founded? >> well, listen, you and i have circled this wagon a number of times and clearly we need filibuster reform. we also have members of the senate that are not from districts like hers. we have members of the senate that are democrats from very red

places, and that makes this much harder. i will say this. i couldn't agree more with matthew dowd about messaging. it needs to be values-based, but here is what i do know. when you are extreme you lose elections. i got a second term in the senate strictly because -- i mean was i a strong candidate? yes. did i work my you know what off? yes, but i also ended up with an opponent who was very extreme and it freaked people out how extreme he was. that's what is going on in texas right now. so here is my big point of this segment. state legislative races matter. >> yeah. >> that's where democrats have really dropped the ball. they have been so focused on senate races and congressional races and presidential races, donors all over the country are ignorant about what is going on under their own noses in state

legislatures. this -- what is going on in texas is political malpractice because texas has gained prominence because they've attracted new business and tech business and young workers. my daughter is among them. she is freaked out. they will not attract young workers with this kind of profile. this is not the kind of state young people want to live in, where everybody gets a gun no matter how crazy they are and where if you have been raped by your mother's boyfriend you can't have an abortion without a private bounty hunter coming after your family. i mean this is not what people want, the majority of texans. now, all we have to do is focus on the right candidates filing, running strong campaigns, making sure donors are supporting those candidates, whether they're running for state representative or congress. i know that we want to stay fixated on the filibuster, but this is much bigger than the filibuster.

this is about winning elections. republicans are giving us an opportunity now and we should not blow it. >> claire mccaskill, matt dowd, texas state representative ron reynolds, thank you all so much for starting us off this hour. when we come back, after a summer that proved deadlier than expected, what does the next few months hold for the fight against the coronavirus pandemic? our friend laurie garrett weighs in. plus, the investigation heats up into the disgraced ex-president's attempt to get georgia's secretary of state to find the votes to overturn joe biden's victory there. we'll have the latest. historian john meachem joins us later in the hour as president biden deals with a growing list of crises ahead of a major milestone for the country this week. "deadline: white house" correspondents after a quick break. don't go anywhere. . watch: serena williams... wonder woman. serena... wonder woman... serena... wonder woman... ♪ ♪

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this summer caught a lot of us, including a lot of experts, by surprise. a highly contagious delta variant of the coronavirus causing deaths and hospitalizations that are still rising in a lot of this country. today "the washington post" reports on what experts are saying about the persistent question, the ever-changing interpretation of what is known as the covid end game. quote, the answers come in a ka lied scopic cavalcade of scenarios, some suggested with utmost human illity, others with mathematical confidence. the pandemic will end because deaths finally drop to about the same level we are accustomed to seeing from the flu each year or it will end when most kids are vaccinated, or it will end

because americans are finally exhausted by all of the restrictions on daily life. there's a consensus about the bottom line on the big question. pandemics do end, sort of. some of the nation's most prominent epidemiologists and public health experts say we are already there for different reasons. joining our coverage, laurie garlt, columnist for "for policy" magazine and msnbc science contributor. what do you make of the analysis and the sort of crystal ball gazing about whether delta has peaked? >> well, we have been here before over and over and over again. i remember when everybody was writing articles in the past tense about this epidemic and that was, what, about six months ago? we were there in 2020 when people were claiming, oh, the end is right around the corner. we can't buy into this. it is always wrong. it is always well intended but ill informed and often very much driven by a kind of, you know,

overarching hopefulness from wall street desperate to see the economy back in predictable circumstances with everybody raring to go to the movie theaters and jump on airplanes. we're just not there, folks. i don't think anybody who's, you know, looking in their crystal ball and trying to imagine where we are going to be by halloween, where we are going to be by christmas has a really strong sense of where this delta variant is going and what variants lurk around the corner that will have an even perhaps worse effect on the united states' situation. the one thing that is clear, nicolle, is as long as, you know, 20% of the american adults refuse to get vaccinated we remain vulnerable, the whole population remains vulnerable. you know, most schools have only started opening. in many states, many localities schools don't open until after today, after labor day, and yet

we are already seeing schools shutting down, giving up on classroom education, going back to virtual. over and over, all over the place because of outbreaks. this means that we keep overestimating our own capacity to -- well, i wouldn't say to control it because we have the capacity to control it. we just don't have the capacity to get our fellow citizens to exercise what they need to exercise in order to control the spread of disease. >> you know, laurie, i would just add that i think there's something more than the hopefulness of wall street. i mean i think anyone raising a child right now has to live with the hope -- you look at your kid and you tell them it will end. you tell them once all parents can make a decision to vaccinate their children we can go back to most normal activities. what is the other side of the equation about a return to something resembling normal for american families? >> i heard a great quote

somewhere this morning, and it was that i'm tired of being resilient, i just want to relax. wow, who doesn't feel that way? it gave me goose bumps when i heard it. it is precisely in a nutshell what is going on in america today. so what is the answer to that? oh, ladies and gentlemen, we still have a tough road ahead of us. for all of you who are parents with kids or employers who need your workforce back on site, you know, you are going to have to be prepared to tap dance around. try open, see infections, go back closed. you know, there's got to be agility here. i totally recognize what is going on with the kids. psychologically what we're doing to children is really tough. they need to be with other kids. you know, a 5 year old can only get so many from a 50-year-old grandma. what they really need is another 5 year old. but if we can't get them in the

classroom, we can't get them on the playground, we can't get them on the teams because their community refuses to vaccinate and refuses to wear masks or their governor basically bans mask use in the state, then it is going to be consistently dangerous. there's going to be outbreaks. yes, we are seeing more kids hospitalized across the country and a subset of them experiencing severe disease. >> laurie, what do you -- what can you help us understand about where the fda is in terms of boosters and where the approval process is in terms of vaccines for kids under 12? >> what a mess! my god. if there's anything that's been mishandled in the last three or four months, this whole booster shot business, what a debacle. i mean, first of all, we still don't have a person running the fda. i don't understand what is going on in the white house and why there hasn't been some sense of urgency about putting somebody in the driver's seat at the fda.

second of all, the actual application from pfizer, my understanding is it is 100,000 pages long. you can't read that and come up with a detailed analysis of all the issues that you want to raise if you are one of the scientific -- unpaid scientific advisers that are supposed to tell the fda yes or no. you can't read 100,000 pages in a few days. and then, you know, right behind them comes moderna. they're going to have another 100,000 pages and so on. this is a huge process, and we don't have a reliable system in place for rapidly reviewing such proposals and reaching conclusions. so far the acip, which is the advisory group to the cdc that then tells the fda yes or no on your idea for any particular drug innovation, the acip has so

far done a pretty darn good job, but this is -- this is over the top where we are now. you know, the obvious next question everybody is going to ask, okay, first she said five months, then you said eight months, then you said six months, how many months after my second dose? and then -- >> yeah. >> -- first you said everybody, and then you roll it back to just pfizer recipients, so what are all of the moderna and johnson & johnson recipients supposed to do? it is such a mess. it is so confusing. then on top of everything else, nicolle, we all know people who are well connected, well financed and have already gotten their third dose because they just had a little discussion with their doctor or their pharmacist and, boom, there it is. so now we have a whole other layer of inequity built on top of an already existing, deeply unequal distribution of all of the benefits of fighting off

this disease, whether it is drugs or vaccines, and this is just terrible. i don't understand how they messed this up this badly, but this is really, you know, bad news. >> we'll stay on it with your help. laurie garrett, thank you for spending time with us. >> thank you. when we come back the district attorney in atlanta is pressing ahead with her investigation into donald trump's attempt to overturn the election results in georgia. that story after a quick break. k reliable network by rootmetrics. and our customers rated us #1 for network quality in america according to j.d. power. number one in reliability, 16 times in a row. most awarded for network quality, 27 times in a row. proving once again that nobody builds networks like verizon. that's why we're building 5g right, that's why there's only one best network.

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the ballots are corrupt, and they're brand-new and they don't have seals. there's a whole thing with the ballots. but the ballots are corrupt, and you're going to find that they are -- which is totally illegal. it is -- it is more illegal for you than it is for them because you know what they did and you're not reporting it. that's a criminal, that's a criminal offense and, you know, you can't let that happen. that's -- that's a big risk to you and to ryan, your lawyer. that's a big risk. >> that was the disgraced twice-impeached insurrection-inciting ex-president attempting to strong arm georgia's secretary of state brad raffensperger on the now infamous phone call from january 2nd, asking him to find the votes that would overturn

president joe biden's victory there. that call and many of the people on it could now be part of the investigation by fulton county da fanny willis, who according to "the daily beast" has now started interviewing state officials and received documents related to georgia's 2020 election recount. from that "daily beast" report, quote, investigators have since interviewed at least four officials at the secretary of state's office, asking questions that show a particular interest in raffensperger's separate phone conversations with trump and u.s. senator lindsey graham. that's according to two of the sources who spoke anonymously. according to two sources, da investigators interviewed a number of people around may who could have been influenced by the former president's plea to find votes, including georgia secretary of state attorney ryan germany, agency communications director ari schaffer, chief operating officer gabe sterling, and the external affairs director who oversees the

agency's outreach program, sam teasely. let's bring in harry lipman, former u.s. attorney. greg bloom steen, former political reporter for "the atlantic constitution." what is going on? >> it is going to take a long time, even though it seems they have the evidence from the recorded phone call, it is going to take months and months for local prosecutors to assemble the evidence. i'm told by people familiar with the investigation significant news is expected in the next few months. i'm told that investigators are coordinating with congressional investigators probing the pressure applied to raffensperger and other officials to overturn the president's defeat. we will probably see something later this year in terms of concrete developments. right now you are seeing the gears turn behind the scene as investigators are readying their case. >> let me ask you, rob, two

pieces of news in there. big news meaning potentially charges? >> potentially a special grand jury investigation, new developments. i'm not sure if it will involve charges. my sources were pretty nondescript on that front but they did say there will be some tangible movement in the next few months. this is still moving along. there's some sort of sense that it has stalled out, but clearly the gears behind the scenes are moving. >> and, greg, on your second bit of news there, the congressional investigators, i mean the senate judiciary committee and the house select committee investigating january 6th are the two most obvious sort of committees looking at these same events. do you have any indication which one or both? >> i don't have any indication of which of those committees, but i know that the congressional investigators have -- have sought documents not just from secretary of state brad raffensperger but also governor brian kemp and other georgia elected officials who

were being pressured by trump to take action to reverse his election defeat. so the sense i got from da willis's office and from people around who are familiar with the investigation, i should say, was essentially they've already gotten some of the documents. there could be some coordination there in terms of sharing -- sharing the proceeds. >> so, harry litman, just take the call. it is over an hour. i think it is close to an hour and a half. i'm no lawyer. i could guess what crimes were committed, but you are. tell me what crimes would be under consideration in. >> the first and foremost would be solicitation to commit election fraud, a felony in georgia law if what they're trying to get raffensperger to do is a felony, and they are is the short answer. the letter that they sent out to people to preserve evidence gave a flurry of other charges, up to and including rico. we know for giuliani maybe in the suit for false statements, lindsey graham for the same kind of charge.

the little philip laid out at the beginning, nicolle, has a flavor of extortion. but the number one charge they're going for is clean and simple and has this fantastic feature of being all in the defendant's voice, the thing that trump avoided all the time but raffensperger was smart and knew he might lie about it and taped it, is this solicitation to commit election fraud and it would be, you know, that tape would be played 20 different times in different ways, and it is seven ways of what is involved here. just add, they have now been doing the voluntary part, including with the secretary of state folks. i think they do have two grand juries assembled and they are -- the next step would be to subpoena certain other documents. >> harry, the lindsey graham call, since the time it was first reported, i think that might have been by you, gregory, or your colleagues or wherever i

read that, always seemed like one step too far for lindsey graham, not his state, not his role and potentially exposing him to criminal questions. what do you make of -- what questions would you have about lindsey's role and lindsey's conduct? >> yeah, check, check, check. it is all three, and around them, remember, he had somehow put himself in this small group including rudy giuliani and sidney powell. now, the big difference here is they don't have the goods on tape, but what he said was, try to get -- can you get rid of some of the mail-in ballots that don't seem to be kosher. now, relative to trump, he could say that he wasn't trying to do anything untoward, and he has already denied it. so it is a separate case to make. on the other hand, we know that the voluntary interviews they've done with the secretary of state's office have focused very much on this call and lindsey graham as well as on trump.

so they're certainly pointing in that direction. he was certainly more than bibitzing at the time. he was being trump's emissary for, as far as anyone can tell, for asinine reasons but you have it, he was out there trying to propound the big lie. >> if you ever feel like you are losing grasp of just how bad donald trump was, just how corrupt he was, just how heinous he was in private phone calls he didn't think would ever be called, listen to the whole call again. you will thank god that his efforts did not succeed. harry litman, greg, thank you so much for joining our coverage. we will stay on it. >> thank you. when we come back, president biden campaigned to restore the soul of this country. this week he gets a chance to show off the traits that propelled him to victory last year. that story is next.

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jersey, so hard hit by the deadly flash floods late last week. coming up this weekend, the 20th anniversary of the september 11th attacks. president biden will attend ceremonies at all three memorial sites. joining our cover historian john meachem. he occasionally advises president biden. i have to ask you, have you advised him lately and specifically on this, what he will say and do around the anniversary of september 11th next saturday? >> i haven't. i suspect this will be intuitive to him, honestly. i think what president bush called a day of fire is this great inflection point in the life of 21st century america. it has shaped so much of what has happened. it continues to really be part

of the channels of our lives, and i think that the work of the 20th anniversary like this is to, first and chiefly, to commemorate the deaths of innocents who died because they went to work or got on a plane, were going about their lives. i think always, as i'm sure you do, about that remarkable story of flight 93 in the skies over pennsylvania when those passengers lived out the gospel injunction that greater hath -- greater love hath no man than this than they would lay down his life for others. they struck out and they died. this is a part of who our president is and who best the country is. >> todd reamer was obviously one

of the people on the flight. the stories were so familiar to those of us working in government at the time, got to meet a lot of the family members of flight 93. but you are right, the stories are familiar to this president, and what was fleeting but historic was some sense of patriotism, of unity after 9/11. i wonder if you think this president is inclined to call on that echo, that memory at this moment? >> i think so. i think that in an hour like this, an american president in tune with what lincoln called the better angels of our nature knows what to say. what you say is we were hit, evil attempted to shape and change the way we live. it was the result of a will to power by targeting the innocent, and what america does at its

best and what human beings do at their best is they stand up against those who would persecute the innocent for some kind of political or theocratic agenda. it is not even -- it is not eve interesting sign of where we are as a country that this is even really something to note. right? i mean, george w. bush knew what to say. he went down to that -- to that mass grave on the friday after his remarkable speech at washington national cathedral, and he didn't have talking points when he picked up that bullhorn. he responded. and he responded for a grieving and wounded country. and that's at their best what presidents do. i don't want to make presidents into these olympian figures. but they are in a way both a

mirror and a maker of who we are. and what president bush was on that friday was a mirror of the defiance he felt in that smoky pit. and i think what president biden has an opportunity to do over the next week or so is mirror a country that's reflective hopefully about the lessons of that day. again, honor the people who experienced it. the folks who are these amazing human stories of what it's like when history and the unimaginable strike you. you're right about the generational thing. i was struck -- the students i'm teaching this semester were all born after the florida recount. >> wow. i feel old. >> p it made my late middle age seem even worse. it's like one student asked me once what cut and paste meant.

>> middle is being generous to people like us. >> true. true. but it's an important week for the country. it's an important week to think about what we've learned, what we haven't learned in those 20 years. but chiefly this is an act of commemoration. >> jon meacham, thank you so much for spending some time with us. we'll continue to call on you this week. it does have some important moments, bigger than the daily churn. so i hope you'll heed our calls to come back. when we come back, a double dose of good news for pete and chasten buttigieg. we'll be back with that after a quick break. back with that aft quick break. so when their windshield got a chip, they wanted it fixed fast. they drove to safelite autoglass for a guaranteed, same-day, in-shop repair.

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before we go, we simply cannot and will not pass up an opportunity to share some really, really good news. last month we told you that pete buttigieg and his husband, chasten, were about to become parents. well, this weekend we got our first photo and a little surprise. you will notice not one but two bundles of joy there in the picture. so say hello to penelope rose and joseph august buttigieg. obviously, we send our warmest and our most sincere congratulations to all of them. best of luck to the new parents who in the next few months may find a full night's sleep very,

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good evening, everybody. i'm yasmine vus yoougian. we've got a lot to get to on this labor day monday. with the unofficial end of summer upon us, i know it's depressing, congress is coming back in session and the january 6th select committee probing what led to and during the maga riot is moving forward and intensifying. gop leader mccarthy threatening data companies if they comply with the law and send over phone and internet records. toda