hi, everyone. it's 4:00 here in washington. it is a stunning reversal even by the standards of donald trump, the disgraced ex-president. the man who once said that pleading the fifth was for the mob and asked, quote, if you're innocent, why are you taking the fifth amendment? well, fast forward six years. he ended up telling the people anyone in my position not pleading the fifth will be a fool. it shows a scene team trump has worked for many years to avoid. video of his deposition shows donald trump under oath pleading the fifth more than 400 times in the ag's probe into the business practices of the trump org. it begins with this exchange

between trump and aj tish james. >> anything you say in this examination may be used in a civil proceeding and that could include a civil enforcement proceeding or a criminal action. do you understand that? >> i think. >> is that a yes? >> i don't know what i did wrong, but the answer is, yes, i do understand it. >> i don't know what i did wrong. donald trump then goes on to read a prepared statement in which he repeats some of the same many paranoid conspiracies and delusions we've heard from him for years now, that he's the actual victim of a witch hunt by an out of control prosecutor, blah, blah, blah. here's a snippet. >> this is the greatest witch hunt in the history of our country. the there has never been another president or perhaps even another politician who has been

persecuted, harassed, and in every other way unfairly treated like president donald j. trump. >> not anything we haven't heard before from the ex-president but what happens next is. here's trump repeatedly invoking his fifth amendment right against self-incrimination as prosecutors present him with a mountain of evidence, including financial statements and documents and ask detailed questions about the finances of the trump org and what they allege is a pattern of fraud based on manipulating the values of trump org properties. watch. >> the 2019 statement of financial condition contained false and misleading valuations, is that correct? >> same answer. >> you knew at the time it was finalized that the year 2019 statement of financial information contained false and misleading statements, is that correct? >> same answer. >> in preparing the 2019 statement of financial condition mr. weisselberg and mr. mcconny worked at your instructions to

inflate asset valuations by employing false and misleading assumptions, is that correct? >> same answer. >> other than the accounting department worked with mr. weisselberg and mr. mcconny to follow your instructions and inflate asset valuations is that correct? >> same answer. >> low energy donald trump under oath is where we start today with some of our favorite reporters and friends. here with me in washington, "new york times" investigative reporter david and katy kay and andrew wiseman and he's a former justice department prosecutor and former senior member of robert muller's team and there's the what of it. he'd rather be briefed about policy than where he was, but

there's still the injection of the absurdity and the delusions which i found amazing that no lawyer can tell him that's not helpful. >> that's right. he begins his deposition with this long, rambling speech meant be for i don't know who. there's no rally audience out there. there's no political partisans. >> there's no one who's going to clap. about witch hunt, this is the greatest witch hunt in american history. i don't know whose benefit that's for, if he knows who that's for. no audience other than his own psyche. >> this existed, this came out, i believe it was a news organization, cbs, that petitioned for this to come out. this was part of the evidence that the ag gathered ahead of indicting trump org, right? >> that's why we have this. it was cited in a lawsuit that the new york attorney general filed against trump last year basically alleging that he and his family, his adult children

had wildly inflated property values in order to gain benefits like better loan terms, better insurance, lower taxes, things like that. >> caddy, what do you think the significance is of seeing these things and seeing these cases drag out? i mean, i think some of david's earliest reporting came in the earliest months and years of the trump organization. there's been smoke around criminality and questions of criminality and fraud. i guess it boasts into the open when he said he had seen it and allen weisselberg had directed it. what do you think the sort of -- i mean, the psychic impact on trump is evident. what is the impact of seeing these cases still sort of rumbling down the tracks now? >> i mean, to some extent nothing new hit because we had a low reporting from august on this deposition. we knew he pleaded the fifth multiple times. then you have to think is there a political impact in donald trump supporters in seeing his

video and seeing him low energy. clearly annoyed at being there. the not cooperating. i want to be -- yeah, sort of diminished. he doesn't have the oval office to protect him. he's having to sit there. it's slightly humiliating where he has to say same answer, same answer. is there some political impact? or do the 30% of americans, according to all of the latest polling, 30 and 28% who would follow donald trump across coals, actually they are the ones for whom this is -- that rambling speech is, this is the greatest witch hunt. that allows them to say, yes, he's totally persecuted. all of those pleading the fifth, it's irrelevant. we still follow him. i can't make out that any of these lawsuits, maybe it's that thing if you owe the bank, you know, $100, you've got a problem. you owe them a million dollars, they've got a problem. maybe there's so many lawsuits around donald trump that it

doesn't make a difference politically. my instinct would be the political party would say this is too much baggage, they may do that, but i'm just not convinced. >> it's always with him, tpd. >> always. >> the tipping point is unknown. alvin brag had breathed new life into the circumstances. when he left the office it was because he had decided not to bring that case. the cases had new life. michael cohen suggested that there's still an active line of questioning, of pursuing the facts around the stormy daniels hush money payments for which michael cohen went to jail but individual figured prominently. this wasn't at the time, this was the height of the muller probe when you were a key prosecutor in that office. i know it working on the

manafort case and preparing for trial at that point. what can you tell us about the evidence that exists of trump's criminality in that case? >> well, i do think that one thing i would do is maybe expand the lens a little bit because manhattan is clearly looking at this sort of campaign fraud that michael cohen was at the center of. in other words, that he was paying off stormy daniels and it was being couched as legal payments, which of course it wasn't. and this was actually to keep her quiet so it didn't actually spring out just before the election, but the manhattan district attorney's office was also looking at a wide range of financial fraud, and this is where there is a little bit of an intersection between what you just started with potentially and what manhattan is looking at. it's useful to remember that

with donald trump asserting the fifth amendment and with us seeing it viscerally now, let's just scratch the surface a little bit. we have the former president not answering questions about were your financial statements accurate? did you engage in fraud? did you instruct people to engage in fraud? were you inflating your assets and deflating your deductions -- i mean, inflating your deductions? and so he's not willing to answer that. and it's not because it's a witch hunt, it's because the answers would be incriminating. in fact, legally the only way you can validly assert the fifth amendment is if a truthful answer to the question would tend to incriminate you, and so by asserting the fifth over and over again, which he clearly has a valid fifth amendment, it's not because of a witch hunt, it's because they would tend to be incriminating. to bring it back to your

question, it remains to be seen how broad manhattan is currently looking at these potential charges, whether it's just the sort of michael cohen campaign finance stor stormy daniels pie his whole house of cards that he was on top of, the trump organization. >> harry lipman, i want to show you what was in the announcement. for our viewers, i had to go over this a few times today. this takes place before the ag announces charges. let me show you some sound when she's -- talks about suing the trump organization and what she's alleging they have done. >> this investigation revealed that donald trump engaged in years of illegal conduct to inflate his net worth to achieve -- to deceive banks and the people of the great state of new york. claiming you have money that you do not have does not amount to the art of the deal, it's the

art of the steal. >> so clearly trump does nothing in his deposition to slow down the locomotive that is a.j. tish james's investigation into the trump org. where do you -- and i just keep putting this moment in time out there because the deposition isn't new, we're just seeing it for the first time. where would you put the time line of this case? >> so, he's deposed in the summer and she brings the suit in october, but to david's question, who is the audience here? the most important audience we're for getting is 12 percents whose name we don't know yet. this is going to trial in october and the number one point to keep in mind is because it's a civil suit and not a criminal suit, the jury is going to hear his fifth amendment invocations. they're allowed to hear it and the ladies and gentlemen of the

jury, he said to you he took the fifth because he -- it was a witch hunt? nonsense. he's depriving you of truthful information. why is he doing that? because he knows it would harm you as the evidence we've shown you so far demonstrates. that's going to be devastating to him in a lawsuit that all in all brings everything but incarceration to his doorstep. financial ruin and loss of control of the trump organization. that's the number one thing, that's why he's being calm by the way. his lawyers have woodshedded him saying don't do any histrionics because the very snippets we saw will be played in front of the jury, not the dry transcript but they'll again and again and again offer the truth. cut to donald trump, this is admissible under the rules of evidence, invoking the fifth and then argue, why did he do it? because he tends to know it will make him liable.

not criminally liable, civilly liable but very seriously civilly liable. that's what's going on here. that's why he had to take the fifth, because the truthful answers would have given him a roadmap and he would have >> they allege the conspiracy was ongoing until the moment they filed it. the when asked if he, mr. trump, mr. wiseleburg, mr. mcconny since at least as far back as '05 had an ongoing agreement to generate false or misleading financial statements, mr. trump invoked his fifth amendment privilege. he helped craft the statements.

overt acts in furtherance of a conspiracy occurred as late as '19, '20, '21 and '22. it's striking that she is alleging that while president in '19 and '20 he was engaged in, in her words, a conspiracy to craft fraudulent, in her words, statements to secure favorable financial terms. >> i was struck by that too. what i'll be interested to see is how does she draw that line between donald trump and these statements? who does she get to say donald trump told me to file the statement? both mcconny and weisselberg, mcconny being the controller, weisselberg being the cfo. none of them said donald trump came into my office this is wrong but say it anyway. that to me is the big question over that lawsuit and also any potential use of financial manipulation. how are you going to show me donald trump was the one who gave this order? it's a different matter with

stormy daniels. michael cohen will say that. the that's what i say as president. >> do you think they are also interested in mr. weisselberg? there's some sort of speculation he becomes a more helpful witness -- or a helpful witness, he hasn't been very helpful at all once he's settled in at rikers? >> yes. he did connect the trump organization. yes, weisselberg, 70 plus-year-old man is in rikers for five months. he's always said there's nothing -- i'm not hiding anything. there was nothing done. nobody told me to do this. i did it on my own. if that changes, yes, the manhattan district attorney and the new york ag are going to be very interested. >> let me pull back the curtain for a minute and talk about why we're starting here. in a normal moment, the

extraordinary to hear a former president take the fifth amendment, which is his right, his privilege against incriminating himself. it's a story we weren't positive that was even the top story today, but i want to play this for all of you. this is people not like me, former political actors or people in the news, these are lifelong prosecutors, people who run investigations into trump saying that beyond a reasonable person's assessment and based on our investigation he committed crimes. watch. >> if we had had confidence that the president clearly did not commit a crime, we would have said so. >> if this is not a crime, i don't know what is. if a president can incite an insurrection and not be held accountable, then really there's no limit to what a president can do or can't do. >> we've been very clear about a number of different criminal offenses that are likely at issue here.

if -- if the department of justice determines that they have the evidence that we believe is there and they make a decision not to prosecute, i think that really calls into question whether or not we're a nation of laws. >> and then let me add this from the washington post. prosecutor who resigned over a stalled trump probe said the expresident committed felonies. the team who has been investigating mr. trump harbors no doubt about whether he committed crimes. he did, pomeranz's letter said. the public interest warrants the criminal prosecution of mr. trump and should be brought without any further delay i would add. they likely committed felonies. help a layperson understand why prosecutors, members of congress who investigated donald trump, another prosecutor, a federal judge see crimes, see evidence of crimes, tell the public there's been criminality and nothing ever happens. >> yeah.

i mean, so, look, there has been such a long period where it appears that donald trump is circling the drain, but everyone has heard that over and over again and they're not seeing accountability. now when he was president it is important to know he could not under department of justice guidelines be prosecuted. that didn't, however, prevent either manhattan or georgia at the state level from bringing a case, and you do see signs of life, particularly in georgia, that they are pursuing it. now that he is no longer the president, i do think that you're seeing a whole series of ways that he is being held to account. certainly at the civil level. the tish james, that's the new york attorney general, has brought a suit and as harry said is going to trial in october. and with respect to the criminal case, it's important to remember although you can watch the january 6th hearings, and as

terrific as they were and as elucidating as they were as to what is going on, that is very different types of evidence than you need in a court of law to prove a case beyond a reasonable doubt. if i were still in the department i'd certainly be working damn hard on the case, but it would be also in the back of my head, there is nothing worse than bringing the case and losing. so the goal is to make sure that if you're in the department, if you're in manhattan, if you are in georgia, you are bringing a case that will stick. i think that is the phase we're in now. i know people may be tired of hearing that, but i think that all signs are that things are really ramping up and i think that's why you're seeing donald trump assert the fifth amendment so many times. one final thought, nicole. >> please. >> not to put anybody who's on the air right now, but would anyone here if we asked them a question of did you commit

financial fraud when you filed your taxes, i think we all would say, i'm willing to answer that question, no, i didn't. >> right. i mean, look, it's to the smart legal analysis that you and harry have provided that an innocent or person who planned to sort of prevail in this lawsuit would have conducted him or herself very differently. i wonder, harry, you talked about prosecutors as human beings in your insightful analysis of alvin brag's stormy daniel's information, can you talk about other prosecutors seeing such a pathetic deposition performance by donald trump. do you see someone you're more confident in prosecuting? is. >> yes, but again, we should really keep in mind. it's a civil case among other things. preponderance of the evidence, not even beyond a reasonable

doubt, and his very fifth amendment answers can be used against him. every time they went to the paper where they can show discrepancies and he says, i take the fifth, that's evidence against him, as is all the general evidence that of course he controls things. as to what's going on with the humans in the department of justice, you slapped me around pretty good on this yesterday, but i just want to echo, everything andrew said and just there is a different natural time line of developing cases and political accountability. it's true the department was slow while they were focused on the thousand mauraders and take that and make an issue but where they're at now and the pace they're at now gives every indication of what you need to do methodically, including to withstand to be sure you can get 12 people to convict beyond a reasonable doubt. it is frustrating for people. i'll just stand with my fellow former dojar andrew wiseman in

trying to explain it. i do not think there is a failure of nerve or will at the doj. >> i am sorry you felt that way. that is all on me. i think that what people feel is an immense amount of trust and comfort in former senior prosecutors like yourselves, and it is true that what people have watched happen for six years is conduct that would land any of us in jail three, four, five, six, seven times. and not only has donald trump not been held accountable, but there seems to always be an excuse structure inside the law. i think if you're outside the law and you've never been a prosecutor, that is very opaque to people. i'll give you a chance to re-explain what you think i came on too strong over yesterday. i mean, harry, what is the explanation? and take me out of it. >> yeah. >> when adam kinzinger and liz cheney are on tv saying there is

no rule of law if donald trump isn't prosecuted. >> first it is accurate. everyone here wants it next week. what's the quick explanation. four years as andrew said where it's off the table. a long period where they really are focused on the thousand people, maybe they could have had more. now since then, a year or so, look how long it takes to put together a serious case that you know -- anticipate all the defenses, try to get cooperators which has been damnably difficult. cheney and kinzinger knows he committed crimes in the layperson sense. they've got to go forward and show it beyond a reasonable doubt. it's not just egg on their face but the cost to the country that they absorb if it's a hung jury. that's what accounts for the methodicalness that i think is

so frustrating for people who are on the political time line of, yes, he's committed crimes. the answer is, yes, it will be another two or three months if you look outside of the political context of how long it takes to put cases together. one more quick thing. of course there's the shadow and spec tore of the 2024 election that makes this all the more pitched and worrisome. i agree, i agree, i agree. but what it isn't in my view, i think andrew concurs, is some kind of, you know, seeing their own shadow or lack of will at the department of justice. >> andrew, i'll let you chime in if you have any thoughts. >> well, i disagree with that last comment. i do think that doj was slow to get started with respect to what tim called the white collar

component to the january 6th sank tur sanction. what nicole is saying is getting to the lack of accountability and where is sort of legal accountability for wrongdoing, there has been, i think, a delay within the department to move up the chain, but i definitely agree with harry that we are where we need to be now but those time costs are important, both in terms of how people feel in terms of justice being done because the longer you wait the more you're sort of feeding into that, unfortunately rightly, and also because there is a political time line and it's important to have accountability and not have it sort of going on in the circus atmosphere of an election. but i do think jack smith is

where we need to be. >> harry, you want to say anything else? i don't want to cut anybody off. >> all true. what i said is because of the thousand and other things they were slow off the dive, and they have trouble getting cooperators. even before smith, they have the resolve. i think andrew and i are agreeing, i hope so, as i clarify my own comments. >> we have nothing but time around here. nothing but time. they gave us two hours. we felt privileged to have it, but we get to work things out as a family. we're going through this together. and if you felt slapped around, harry lipman, you are always in the right. i'm glad you did today. we couldn't have a show without you. thank you very much for raising that and i hope we wrorkd it out. harry and david, thank you. sorry you had to sit through

family therapy. andrew will be back next hour. caddy sticks around. when we come back, lots of news from right here in washington. the house republicans simultaneously holding the nation's economy hostage while kicking those investigations into their political enemies into high gear all while their colleague george santos is beginning to show some signs of being able to read the room. we'll head to the capitol for that. new details today in the ongoing quest to find what's on the phone of sitting congressman scott perry, all part of doj's investigation into january 6th. all of those stories and more when "deadline white house" continues. don't go anywhere.

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so, here's one for you. how do you govern that counts a serial liar among them, and a new addition in your ranks, a congressman from florida who according to "the new york times" brought grenades as a gift to his fellow members of congress? it may have been a bizarre idea as a gift, violent rhetoric that seems to respond. deck kratz would be wise to brace themself for the real grenade the gop plans to lob at the american worker and economy. new reporting from politico on the debt ceiling should set off alarm bells. debt ceiling negotiations are struck in limbo, as house

republicans demand severe spending cuts without saying where they will start. the house gop this week is revving up its engines in the many planned investigations. kevin mccarthy has told house republicans to treat every committee like the oversight panel. that is, use every last bit of authority to dig into the biden administration. that work begins in earnest this week. joining our coverage alli vitali and msnbc contributor caddy is here with me. alli, take me inside. this was theoretical. here we go. the this is their opening act. tell me about it. >> yeah. the tell me about it, that it took them a long time to get started here. that's sort of been the talk of this congress, on the house side and the senate side, where they took a very long time to constitute their committees but

now we're starting to see them get down to the business of what it means to have subpoena power, what it means to be able to control what investigations and hearings happen here in the house of representatives. that's all starting tomorrow on judiciary and oversight and the themes are somewhat familiar. on judiciary they'll be focusing on the border crisis and on oversight they'll be focusing on the waste, fraud and abuse side of the pandemic. that was one of the hearings and lines of inquiry that i think republicans don't have many risks on when you're talking about the pandemic and how government money was spent. i think actually a lot of americans want to know how that money was spent and if it was misused in any way. i know we often talk about the ppp loans that were filed for incorrectly or by some bad actors. that's what this hearing will probably get into. so it starts from a pretty rational place, but this committee is also the committee that's going to be looking at

the biden documents, the hunter laptop. while this hearing is not that, the ones in the future are very likely to be with many of the actors that you've just outlined. >> you know, i caught a little bit of kevin mccarthy on the sunday shows, and he was a big, hot mess. i mean, do they realize that they need to regroup a little bit? do they think things are going great? >> i think the regrouping might come in the perspective of george santos saying that he's going to briefly resign his committees. his spokesperson is talking about this as them reserving their spots but wanting to start with a clean slate so they're saying they'll wait until he's cleared, but it's not clear he will be cleared of any wrongdoing. i think the santos moment was one of a reset for mccarthy who urged him or encouraged him that this was the right move today, stepping down from those committees in front of the house conference, but broadly speaking they view this as being at a moment where they're kind of

where they want to be after a pretty tumultuous start. they now have subpoena power. they'll start doing these hearings and they're also in these negotiations that begin tomorrow with the biden administration. for republicans and speaker mccarthy, being able to negotiate with biden is a win in and of itself because the white house and democrats have said it shouldn't be a negotiation at all on the debt ceiling. the fact that mccarthy will be in that room for them is there a sign that there's some negotiating happening, even though it's clear the biden job in that meeting is, okay, you want to cut spending, tell me where. so far republicans haven't been able to do that at all. >> tim, as alli is doing her great reporting, i'm thinking of the character in big. he wasn't given the power to negotiate. what he gave away to get the gavel means he walks into the room unable to negotiate. what do you think is happening here? >> yeah,ing this "big" reference

is -- >> "big" is one of mile favorite tom hanks movies. he ends up in an adult's body. when it is the grand achievement to be in the room negotiating all i can think of little boy tom hanks in a grown man's body in the room negotiating with joe biden. >> i can't imagine the one where he's little. kevin mccarthy is a boy in a grown man's body. the specifics and the reference aside. i think the last sentence that alli said is the most important one. they're negotiating the debt -- they don't have anything to negotiate. they tonight have any specifics. all they want to do is create problems for the biden administration. i think the biden administration is very well aware of this, that they are walking into a very poorly laid trap by kevin

mccarthy and his team. it's not as if they have specific cuts they're looking for, specific agenda that the people that sent them to congress want them to follow up on. you know, this is all arson. you know, it's all a nihilism nobody to create change. it's funny -- it isn't funny, it's noteworthy, kevin mccarthy lost the first 14 times and the last vote, the first time. he said he accidentally said that, you know, the benghazi hearings, the point of that was to hurt hillary clinton. he admits that. that creates the round of outrage, rightly, on cable news networks and in the news and members of kevin's caucus. we can't put this guy in charge if he can't admit what we're doing is political. he can't even pretend it's not political. now we fast forward to now and

what he had -- what he accidentally admitted was true about the benghazi hearings is their entire plan. it's just political investigation after political investigation with no policy underpinning it. and i don't know if that is something that's really going to land with the american people that left him a very, very thin majority. >> the problem with governing for the 8 p.m. hour on fox news is that's not where -- that's where a lot of the energy in the republican base is definitely. it is not where the voters who rejected them in november are. and there's some great polling out of cnn already that so far the public, i think upwards of 70%, sees the house republican agenda as not aligned with their interests. >> yeah. all of this conversation is reminding me just now of a couple of days i spent going around the virginia seventh district with abigail spamberger. she spoke in wonky policy terms all about what would happen if

america defaulted and if the government shuts down, what that means for federal workers is catastrophic. >> benefits, no pay. >> lots of them in virginia's seventh. they may not be predisposed, all of them, to voting democrat. these are voters that are up for grabs from either side. so abigail is addressing them and is talking about how this is what will happen if we default. if the government shuts down, we know you'll lose your paycheck for a while. i went to the opponent's rally and she said my policy is to do everything the opposite of what the democrats are doing. there was not a single -- in the whole rally there were lots of flags, and music, and it was much bigger. the spamberger rally was 15 people, this was 200 people. the energy was there. there was not -- i stayed for the whole thing. there was not a single policy proposal. the only policy proposal was to do it differently and have the investigations. it's not where the american people are. they really do care if the

government defaults. they know what that means. particularly federal workers know what that means. i didn't see any opinion poll before the mid-terms or after the mid-terms that showed investigating the biden family were in people's list of priorities. they don't rank. >> merrick garland is doing one. there's a very advanced criminal investigation into hunter biden with criminal charges likely around drug charges or guns or something else. it's another thing that even if that is what you care about, the biden administration left the trump prosecutor in delaware and that's happening already. >> i can see from the political point of view. the whole aim is to weaken biden as much as possible for the next election. that's clearly the strategy of this. i think if you're not also able to deliver some kind of policy that can say we pass this which benefits you because look what your priorities are around your mid-term elections, we've passed

this instead of throwing it into the election, i think that's one of two investigations, i could see it if it's your modus operandi. >> economic anihlism. it doesn't sell. >> we can make an ad out of that. the no one is going somewhere. george santos made some big news today, but would it be enough to quiet the veritable storm that is brewing around him and really, really heavy and hot in new york state for months now? we'll tell you what he's up to next. ntly went through a divorce. she had a lot of questions when she came in. i watched my mother go through being a single mom. at the end of the day, my mom raised three children, including myself. and so once the client knew that she was heard. we were able to help her move forward.

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see if your business may qualify. go to getrefunds.com. did mccarthy tell you to step away from the committees. >> nobody tells me to do anything. i made a decision on my own that i thought best represented my interests. >> i am george. i am my own man. maybe i'm not george. maybe i'm somebody else. we don't know. today embattled congressman and serial liar george santos saying it was his decision and his alone and importantly not kevin mccarthy to recuse himself from his small business committee assignments until he's been cleared from the investigations. nbc news has learned santos told his colleagues that he wants to, quote, prevent from being a distraction. santos again refusing today to

even consider resigning from congress, which it turns out most voters in his own district want him to do, including, wait for it, 71% of republicans. we're back with alli vitali, tim miller and katty kay. oh, my little people would never understand my reasons for lying and embellishing. it turns out his people know well enough for wanting him to go away. >> those aren't necessarily shocking numbers if you listen to colleagues of ours who have gone to this district and talked to voters. they feel completely duped. what some congress people are saying, these are santos's colleagues on the republican side from new york, this is like quitting when you were already going to get fired anyway. it's clear that this is not saving him any face among his colleagues. he didn't want to be a distraction. he could have resigned weeks ago because it has been weeks and

weeks of distraction even amid a tumultuous speaker battle and a very lengthy time of organizing this congress in the first place. george santos has remained at the top of the news cycle even then. in terms of where this goes next though, i think this is really a sign that he's on thin ice but it's a moment where you have to wait for something to actually happen on indictment front. that's the line that my sources here in this building have long drawn on the idea of what's going to -- what's it going to take to get leadership to say they want him gone. it makes sense why they can't say that. we've talked about the politics. you see numbers like that from the ground. it's clear they would lose this special election. they need every number that they can get right now and they'd like to keep it that way for as long as possible. george santos isn't resigning but he's not doing much of anything else either. >> the george santos, story, tim miller, is an incredible human story. i think it's general kelly who says at some point they didn't know they made people like trump. i didn't know they made people

like george santos and that they ended up in congress, but the idea that this is just his doing is also false. kevin mccarthy knew what the deal was. elise stefanik knew what the deal was. they all knew who they were doing a deal with when they stood behind george santos. >> well, yeah. the and this stuff doesn't just happen in a vacuum, right? let's just be honest. a person like george santos is not making it through a primary in the current democratic party. the republican party is a magnet for drifters and liars and freaks because, a, that's a lot of what voters want in the republican primaries, people who are going to burn the system down and, b, a lot of people that maybe traditionally would have run for congress as republicans in the past, graduates of ivy league, military veterans, they don't want to do it because they don't want to have to defend the bs day in and day out. it's created a vacuum for people like george santos to film.

absolutely this is a party -- problem of a rotten party. what is he going to do exactly? like he's not doing constituent services. he's not on committees. what a job. they haven't voted. we're in february. how is he spending his days? just going to read comic books? >> alli? >> yeah, i don't know. i mean, i guess it's more time for him to maybe answer some of our questions. i would happily take that time with him because i have a few. >> we'll send him some suggestions. i'm not sure he takes them from us, but we'll pass that along. we have to sneak in a break. we'll give katty the last word on the other side. don't go anywhere. he other side. don't go anywhere. they're gonna need more space... yep...the house... we gotta sell it! we gotta stage it. excuse me. fix it up. they don't pre-rinse. strangers touching everything.

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i actually think the more shrewd political move for mccarthy would be just to cut him loose. >> the gamble they're making is he would be replaced by a democrat and the margin is so thin. when george santos says, i'm doing it in the best interest of my party. he didn't say, i'm doing what's in the best interest of my constituents, which would be to step down. the message to him has been, look, we have to keep you there because we can't risk making our very slim margin even slimmer. >> ali, what is the sort of process for managing someone like george santos? is there someone in his office

that gets on the phone and tells kevin mccarthy what's coming next? there has to be, even in this republican conference, there has to be some mechanism for finding out what shoe is about to drop next? >> on the santos train i don't get the sense there was any mechanism. it felt like the first few weeks of this congress, every other day brought some new lie, inconsistency or potential legal exposure for george santos. i think the other piece of this, when you talk about what's politically shrewd and another explanation for why this might have happened now is while mccarthy doesn't want to lose the numbers he needs, he also want to kick alan notice mar off the foreign affair committee. it's a different mechanism off the nonselect committee. he needs to put that on the floor for a full vote. right now the math doesn't exist for him to do that on omar. when they talk about the

precedence to take her off this committee, they've been asking questions about why george santos can stay on committees but omar can't. that takes this question away from reporters who have been asking it and allows them to push forward if they find the numbers on the omar front. that's the only other thing recently introduced into the landscape that might explain why mccarthy is doing something. not the thing but a thing with santos. >> i made this mistake during the trump years. i think wednesday came on and i said, we're at the bottom, folks, and we had many, many, many more miles to plunge. i want to make sure we make the mistake with santos. this is not the most ridiculous republican in the conference, by far, nor is it the most damaging politically to kevin mccarthy or the gop brand. but it will always be a notable chapter. what do you think we're descending toward, as ali reported, we're really getting

down to business on the republican side? >> yeah. who knows what we're descending towards in this congress. i think a lot more craziness. though i think that mccarthy is just such a thin red line. even matt gaetz is not a solid vote on removing elan omar. what we do know is increasingly extreme and crazy candidates will be coming in and we're nowhere near the bottom on that. >> that's a prediction you're safe making around here. ali vitali, thank you. i think we saw our colleague, garrett haake. >> it's a busy hallway. >> feel free to step away and grab anyone any time. thank you, ali vitali, tim miller, katty kay, thank you for being on set. we cooled it down. it was hot when we walked in. thank you for staying with us, through the family therapy, the temperature changes -- >> i like family therapy. i like the fact they disagreed. it made me feel better because i've been thinking, where does

this all lead to and why does it take so long? i feel less dumb about law. >> my only point is i've never been a prosecutor. >> me either. >> we trust them completely. so, i didn't mean to beat him up. thank you for sitting through that. up next for us, new details and a closer look at the justice department's january 6th investigation and their high, high interest in one republican congressman. that story after a quick break. don't go anywhere. the promise of america is freedom, equality, but right now, those pillars of our democracy are fragile and our rights are under attack. reproductive rights, voting rights, the right to make your own choices and to have your voice heard. we must act now to restore and protect these freedoms for us and for the future, and we can't do it without you. we are the american civil liberties union.

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the select committee obtained records from the national archives that show scott perry was one of the congressmen who joined that

meeting. >> at the outset of the call, congressman perry told me that he was calling at the behest of the president. >> he had been talking to someone as he referred to as general perry, which i believe is congressman perry. >> and i didn't know congressman perry, never heard of him before this conversation. >> representative perry was urging chief of staff mark meadows to elevate clark within the department of justice. >> hi again, everyone, it's 5:00 in washington, d.c. there's a name we heard over and over and over again, the january 6th select committee's public hearings, scott perry, a sitting congressman from pennsylvania, who played a significant role in trying to replace top doj officials with individuals like jeffrey clark, who are far more lakely to aid in efforts to get states to overturn their own election results. a crucial ally to the twice imbeached, disgraced ex-president. perry was also involved in many discussions and strategy sessions with trump and his top

aides. his text messages with chief of staff mark meadows put into stark relief how perry was, quote, attempting to involve himself in nearly every aspect of the campaign to block joe biden's win. that's according to talking points memo, which obtained the thousands of meadows texts that were turned over to the january 6th select committee. at one point, perry even brought up the conspiracy theory that italian satellite zapped voting machines and stole the election for president joe biden. now there's new reporting that pulls back the curtain on amoslong legal battle between this staunch trump ally and the current doj as the department continues its investigation into the efforts to reverse the 2020 election result. politico is reporting this, quote, a federal appeals court panel has put a secret hold on the justice department's efforts to access perry's phone. the existence of the legal fight, a setback for doj, reported here in politico for the first time is itself

intended to be shielded from public scrutiny. part of the strict secrecy that governs ongoing grand jury matters. the fbi seized perry's phone back in august with a court-approved warrant. perry fought it, saying there are constitutional protections for members of congress. politico adds this, quote, the fight has intensified in recent weeks and drawn the house, newly led by speaker mccarthy, into the fray. on friday the chamber moved to intervene in the back and forth over letting doj access the phone of perry. the house freedom caucus chair reflecting the case's potential to result in precedent-setting rulings, to the extent which lawmakers could be shielded from scrutiny and criminal investigations. the house's decision to intervene in legal cases is governed by the bipartisan legal advisory group, five-member panel that includes mccarthy, his democratic counterpart, hakeem jeffries, and other members of house leadership. uncovering what is on perry's phone could be really important,

a key asset for the justice department in its investigation. we know from the talking points memo reporting that perry and meadows alone, quote, exchanged at least 62 messages in the period from election day, november 3, 2020, through president biden's inauguration on january 20th. and we also know from the testimony of meadows' former aide, cassidy hutchinson, that perry was one of the many members of congress who needed a pardon. >> mr. biggs said he talked about congressional pardons but he never asked me for one. it was more for an update on whether the white house was going to pardon members of congress. mr. gomer asked for one as well. mr. perry asked for a pardon, too. i'm sorry. i didn't mean to cut you off. >> a closer look at doj's probe and their interest in

congressman scott perry is where we begin the hour with some of our favorite reporters and friends. here with us at the table, former fbi counterintelligence agent pete struck is here, also with us former chief of staff at the department of homeland security, miles taylor, he's the co-founder of the political party forward. andrew weissmann is still with us, former justice department prosecutor and former senior member robert mueller, special investigation counsel. let me ask you to put your fbi general counsel hat on and just tell me whether this is a common hurdle to encounter in a criminal investigation. >> nicolle, there's nothing common about seeking the phone of somebody who is a sitting member of congress. just as we talked about in the last hour, there's nothing common about a former president asserting the fifth amendment to a variety of common place questions like, have you

committed fraud? so, this isn't a normal situation. but there is an issue here that the department does have to be focused on. that is that as we saw when lindsey graham was subpoenaed in the georgia case, there is something called the speech and debate clause. and when a congress person is acting within the speech and debate clause, in other words, they're on the floor debating an issue or discussing that with colleagues, that is something that is privileged. on the other hand, if you're engaging in insurrection, such that you seek a pardon, that's not going to be speech and debate. the issue is when you take somebody's phone, there may be information on there that relates to both things. so, you have to tease out the relevant from the privileged. this is a crash course for the american public that you saw in the mar-a-lago case where there was an issue of how do you tease

out potentially privileged information? there there was so little merit to any potential privilege. here i can imagine the courts starting in d.c. and now the court of appeals, working through this issue of not that the department of justice shouldn't get ultimately the relevant material on the phone, but what is the best way to sift out the stuff that is irrelevant or protected by privilege? so, i think that might be the issue that's really i want to make sure, you're not saying a member of congress is trying to suggest that a member of congress can be investigated

if there's probable cause to believe said member committed crimes? >> absolutely not. if a person, no matter if they're the president, the vice president, a member of congress, if you commit a crime, you can be investigated for it. unlike a president where there's a department of justice policy that you can't prosecute a sitting president, there's no such policy with respect to congress. so, at the center of what's going on with the department of justice, and i have to say pete has the same view, if you are a former member of the department of justice, this is the kind of crime that really is fundamental to your mission. the idea that somebody would try to install somebody to say that there was fraud when there wasn't is the kind of thing that i would think merrick garland and jack smith are going to be focused on like a laser. that's why i think you're correct to say that this is one where getting access to this phone and the relevant material

there is going to be something the department of justice is going to be fiercely tenacious about pursuing. >> i love when andrew weissmann says department of justice and fiercely tenacious in the same sentence. adam kinzinger had to say about mr. perry's role in the coup plot of the doj. >> on the same day acting attorney general rosen told mr. clark to stop talking to the white house, representative perry was urging chief of staff mark meadows to elevate clark within the department of justice. you can now see on the screen behind me a series of texts between representative perry and mr. meadows. mr. perry requested mr. clark be elevated within the department. perry tells meadows on the 6th, quote, mark, just checking in as time continues to count down.

11 days to january 6th and 25 days to inauguration. we've got to get going. representative perry followed up and says, quote, mark, you should call jeff. >> the rest of that is, i just got off the phone. the other guy won't work with the fbi. this was one of the architects of the coup plot, not just bringing the insurrection and militia groups to washington to stop the physical certification, but the thing they wanted to carry out fraudulently within the executive branch of government, which trump said to rosen, just declare it corrupt and my guys will do the rest. my guys was mr. perry. >> that's right. if you're trying to understand what trump knew, what trump did and what he was coordinating, perry is a key player in that. allegedly, he is the person that introduced clark to trump. not only did you have all this back and forth with meadows, trump's chief of staff, but some direct interaction with president trump. at the end of the day we're

seeing doj build a case upward towards trump. that final sort of layer around the president, perry is such a key player in that. the absurd part is he was just named to the oversight committee in congress. he's now on a committee whose job it is, every indication they're going to try to cast dispersions and do as much as they can to damage those criminal investigations. the entire context of what he did in the insurrection is absolutely key and critical to what doj needs to understand and that investigators need to understand to move forward. >> george stephanopoulos asked him a question along the lines of what you're talking about, how can you be part of any of this? let me show you his answer. >> the speaker has also reportedly said he's going to appoint a church-style committee to investigate the investigations. since you're part of the investigation by the justice department, will you pledge not to serve on that committee? >> well, why should i be limited? why should anybody be limited just because somebody has made an accusation?

everybody in america is innocent until proven otherwise. i would say this, the american people are really, really tired of the persecution and instruments of federal power being used against them. >> he didn't end up on the jordan subcommittee but he ends up in great prominence and power. >> when people are involved in any sort of investigation, they recuse themselves, whether democrats, republicans, time and time again. the ethical result is to say, i'm not going to be involved. he's diving in head first, why not? why shouldn't i? i'm innocent until proven guilty. he doesn't mention if he has any ethical or sensibilities. when you look at what they're going to try to do and what we have two years to look forward to, that's what a person involved in as grave as a planned insurrection, trying to interrupt the transfer of power n congress, in an oversight

role, looking at people trying to investigate that. it's absurd on its face, but here we are. >> here we are. i want to just press a little more on what he did. because it's hard to describe one half of the insurrection is better or worse than the other. obviously, the violence that led to the deaths and the physical and psychological scars that our law enforcement officials is horrific, and the effort to carry out an insurrection inside doj is a thing that should horrify everyone covering trump like he's a normal candidate for the presidency in 2024. here's more kinzinger in questioning top doj officials about what perry and clark were plotting. >> on december 31st, mr. meadows received this internet conspiracy theory from representative perry. on the screen now is the text that representative perry sent to mr. meadows, copying a youtube link with the message, quote, why can't we just work

with the italian government? the next day the president's chief of staff sent the youtube link to mr. rosen, who forwarded it to mr. donahue. mr. donahue, did you watch this video?d, congressman. >> how long was the video? >> approximately 20 minutes. reaction when you watched that entire 20-minute video? >> i emailed the acting attorney general and i said, pure insanity, which was my impression of the video, which was patently absurd. >> so, i mean, it's funny but it's horrifying because it doesn't -- we don't get to, quote, pure insanity, which is my impression of the video, which is patently absurd, until this whack ado member of congress sends it to the sitting chief of staff who sends it to doj for action, to act on.

what's amazing, there are a lot of efforts to go to italy. durham and barr go together. i don't know what questions we should have for the italians after all of this. but this went really, really high up. and it wasn't really, really high. other than getting to donahue, who says it's insane, i don't know, maybe they could have found a softer open door? >> nicolle, i've got to tell you that the deep hypocrisy here goes even deeper than you realize. so, in 2015 and 2016, i ran a counterterrorism task force in the house. scott perry was on that task force. at the time he was worried about two things -- >> italy? >> well, he was worried about conspiracy theories radicalizing terrorists in this country and he was worried about the ability of people like peter when they were at the fbi to get into their phones. so, you know, we worked on this hard. here's a quote from the report scott perry wrote with me. the unprecedented speed at which americans are being radicalized by extremists is straining federal law enforcement's ability to monitor and intercept

suspects. and then in the leadup to january 6th, what's scott perry doing? fomenting conspiracy theories about italian satellites that are radicalizing americans and he's directly engaged in that. the irony is, at the time, he wanted to get in the phones of international terror suspects but now he's fighting like hell to prevent his phone from being looked at by federal law enforcement because it might attach him to that insurrection, that domestic terror attack on the united states capitol. so, i think this is deeply hypocritical. scott perry knows better. when it was an international terrorist, he wanted to do anything possible to protect this country. >> what do you think is on his phone? >> good question. i think what's on his phone is digital smoking gun evidence of his close involvement in this plot. we've already seen some of it. he's clearly one of the key players fanning the flames of the conspiracy theory that led to the attack. but there could be more damning evidence, more connections.

what i worry about is potentially to some of these extremist groups. we know other people in donald trump's orbit were directly engaging with the people who committed acts of violence. was representative perry? i think there's probably more for investigators to find there. it's probably one of reasons the justice department has been seeking out that device. he's proven himself to be a key interlocutor in that. >> do we find out -- like the theory ends and you have this loose thread, do we know how he knows clark to begin with? he's introducing clark to other people within the executive branch. >> yeah, look, i think that's a really good question. you know, as much work as the january 6th select committee did to tell us how this came about, there are still big missing pieces. and i think one of those big missing pieces are the members of congress, the people inside the house that facilitated this happening. of course, because of their limitations, the select committee wasn't able to get into that much detail.

but the justice department should be able to. i'm sure this is a stumbling roadblock for investigators, but americans need that answer because at a bear minimum, voters need to know whether to re-elect a scott perry and extremists like that serving in congress and on committees responsible for protecting our security is a big concern, especially if they've committed crimes and tried to overturn the federal government. >> is the fbi likely to be sort of intimidated or to back down when you have sort of an alphabet soup of the subcommittee, of house guys trying to protect congress? i mean, will they back down or is it as andrew described, just a legal process? >> no, not at all. i don't think this is going to have any impact on the willingness of investigators and prosecutors to lay the facts where they lay. the issue is, this isn't going to happen any time soon. the phone was seized six months ago. the oral argument is happening february 23rd. one side or the other isn't going to be happy with whatever they decide. that can be appealed, the entire

circuit court of appeals, all judges or then to the supreme court. if you look down the road at all the argument, counterargument and teeing that up, i don't think investigators will be able to get into that phone, if at all, for another 12 months, if not more. >> that's mazing. andrew, you seem to feel unequivocal about the fact that they will ultimately prevail, that the facts and the law is on the side of doj in this case? >>. >> i do. i don't see how the portion that is relevant is going to be kept from the department and, although i hate to say t pete could be right. i am here a little more sanguin about the time frame. >> explain. >> i think thats once the court of appeals rules, i think it is hard to get a stay from the

supreme court, so that you could end up with a decision, for all intents and purposes s final and allows access to at least a portion of the material. but again, we are unlikely to know what happens because this is going to be covered by grand jury secrecy. so, we may only get, at best, a redacted decision here. >> and because we followed trump and mar-a-lago and kenin, this means instead of the panel, we have everybody and that's what we're all talking about. the education you all provide. thank you. thank you so much. andrew sticks around inc. even longer. when we come back, still a ton of questions about how a senior fbi official may have ended up working with and for the russian oligarch he was once investigating. new reporting is starting to

fill in some of the blanks. later in the hour, new developments in the investigation in memphis into the death -- the murder of tyre nichols. we're learning more about the discrepancies between what police initially said about his arrest and what is now clear from the videotape and the big question now facing the biden administration and congress, will anything meaningful on the question of police reform be enacted in the wake of another horrific case of police brutality? "deadline white house" continues after a quick break. after a quick break. we really had our hands full with our two-year-old. so naturally, we doubled down with a new puppy. thankfully, we also have tide ultra-oxi with odor eliminators. between stains and odors, it can handle double trouble. for the #1 stain fighter and odor remover, it's got to be tide. i brought in ensure max protein

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the stain that has already left

on institution. i know you love the fbi is massive. help us understand what's going on here and what questions you have.de >> sure. well, to say something positive about the fbi, you know, it's to their credit that they brought this case. in other words, they give him a pass because he was a former fbi agent and they brought two, not one, but two important and, yes, shocking indictments. let me just flesh out a little bit not just the one in new york which deals with deripaska and deals with mcgonigal going to work with him and taking payments in violation of american sanction regime and using various pass-throughs and cutouts to disguise what he was doing, but the washington, d.c. indictment, in many ways, is

sort of --ys is more egregious,f you can imagine it, which is that it alleges that this kind of behaviors was going on whil he was an fbi agent he was lying to his higher ups and others about what he was doing. it forms the allegations in washington, d.c. the kinds of questions, nicolle, that i have are legion because what yougi really want to know why in god's green earth would somebody like m ecgonigal be working for deripaska? you can't be in this area of field and not know who he is. one of the most powerful oligarchs in russia, enormously close ties to the kremlin,

engaged in all sorts of widespread alleged fraud across the globe, in many ways has been a subject of sanctions, deservedly by the united states. so, thisy would not be high on your list of people to go work with, let alone to commit crimes with. you're also interested in what was he, if anything, doing in connection with obstructing any fbi investigations or leaking information? that's pure speculation, but if you're asking me, nicolle, what questions i would have forll hi that isor what i would be focus on. >> i just want to follow up with you. you're not suggesting the fbi would give one of their own a pass. he clearly broke the law. the ideake this was some random love connection between the head of the fbi's 's counterintelligence, one of the most senior counterintelligence officials and tederipaska, you read the new york post and know he's a sanctioned russian

oligarch with ties to russian crimes. none ofo it is accidental at a. >> yeah. the fbi didn't give him a pass. what is -- they have brought him to account in two separate ways. and they used a different part of the fbi. it appears they used the los angeles fbi to do this investigation so was well removed from any possible interference or connections to new york agents. but, you know, this is a real stain on sort of what i would say has the new york fbi. for years there were lots of concernse about the new york f in terms of it leaking information. this does not help. and so, you know, what you have when you have a case like this is you worry about were there other people, was he interfering withs investigations, was he leaking information to either politicians, to russians or others?ss so, lots of questions. >> and does the new york -- i

take your point. i appreciate you saying that. i mean, i think that's very much, i think, in the water as concern a lot of our viewers have. do the new york offices, counterintelligence agents and officials, have access to all of the substance of counterintelligence being run out of main doj? >> the answer to that is, yes, but minor exceptions. there's certain -- there's certain investigations that are so sensitive that they can be on a close hold, even within the fbi. but in general,it the point of your question is that everything isha on a computer system or people with at this level would have the ability to see into it. i should say one thing that could be happening here, is because you have two indictments, and particularly it struck me that the d.c., washington, d.c., indictment seems incredibly strong, you

know, this is a former fbi agent. he knows how to look what happens at this point. so, if he can cooperate, you know, this is the time frame to do it. and you would imagine somebody like him, he may have saved up someim things to give to the fb as a form of cooperation. so, i wouldn't be surprised to see this case go down that road where he eventually takes responsibility, pleads guilty and cooperates. and thean questions that you're posing to me, nicolle, about what would you want to know, you can be sure people like pete struck, who are now at the fbi or have all of those questions, particularly from a national security point of ulview. theycu want to know what kind o damage was done by him, if any, while he was at the fbi and then also when he left the fbi, did he reveal any of those secrets

to people like deripaska. >> it's a harrowing case. you're right, we have more questions than answers. you have more questions than the normal individual with all ofth your perspective and knowledge. thank you for helping us sift through this. and thank you for spending so much of the last two hours with us, t andrew weissmann. you're our favorite. >> my pleasure. shifting gears, there are newti details to report about t investigation into the alleged murder of 29-year-old tyre nichols and more questions about why what the police initially said had happened about his arrest does not match up with at all what we can see with our own eyes on these videotape. we'll get to all of it after a quick break. don't go anywhere. k. don't go anywhere.

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call the barnes firm now, and find out what your case could be worth. ♪ call one eight hundred, eight million the grief is still palpable and the fallout continues in memphis where more first responders are being held accountable for their action in the death of tyre nichols and more questions raised about what happened on january 6th in memphis. the memphis police department says two more officers were relieved of duty, in addition to the five officers who were initially fired and charged with murder in the beating. officer preston hemphill was involved in the initial traffic stop with nichols and used a taser on him before he fled from police. memphis police declined to name the seventh officer. three emts have been fired by the city's fire department after an internal investigation.

the three first responders were found to have violated multiple department policies in their response to tyre nichols on january 7th. this wave of disciplinary actions comes amid the revelation that the police report from just hours after nichols' brutal beating now stands in direct contrast to the videos that were available to them immediately and have been shown to the public now. from "the new york times," quote, the police report painted mr. nichols as an irate suspect who had, quote, started to fight, end quote, with memphis police officers. even reaching for one of their guns. the videos, which were released last week, show nothing of the sort. joining us live from memphis, msnbc news correspondent antonio hylton, democratic congresswoman stacey plaskett, a member of the congressional black caucus. that group will be meeting with president joe biden on thursday to discuss police reform legislation in the wake of tyre nichols' death. antonia, i want to start with

you. you've been -- i didn't know how weighted this expression would become. you've been our eyes and ears there for so many days. just bring me up to speed with what's happening today. >> reporter: nicolle, it's a really interesting moment to be in memphis, particularly when you talk to residents. many of them feel validated by all these developments that you just laid out here, because for days, really for weeks, since the community first learned about tyre nichols' death, people have been saying, something's not quite right here. we think there's more than just five officers involved. we don't understand how this traffic stop escalated to someone's brutal beating and death. and they have pushed and pushed and pushed for more answers. now as we see this additional disciplinary action, and from the da, a warning that essentially more charges might be coming for folks. many people here feel validated. it has, in some sense, sort of recognized this gnawing feeling from the community that they

were not getting the full story the first time. this report describes something that is not at all reflected in the four videos that have at least been made public at this time. and what we know now is in addition to these two officers, one of the officers we actually see right at the outset of the violence. the officer you mentioned, officer hemphill, he is the white officer, for anyone that watches the video, he brandishes the taser. you can hear him at one point encouraging colleagues to stomp on nichols. they think he participated in the events that led to tyre nichols' death. and then when it comes to the emts, members of the fire department, it's two emts but also a lieutenant, someone in leadership, who according to their own leadership, has violated their own policies. so, people want to see them now brought in into the broader case that's building here. the community feels validated

but it's led them to push even harder for more answers. they think this could be bigger than the group we have right here. >> antonia, after you got off our air at 6:00, i watched the tape because of your breathtaking coverage of all this. and the questions that you had and that i had. and one of the things people have pointed out is that the officers were wearing cameras and they had to have known it and they did what they did. they carried out this brutal violent beating of someone who doesn't look like the tapes look like he threatened any of them. he calls out his mom's name because he's physically that close to home. his story was easy to prove. he really was almost home. that's the first thing he says when his car is stopped. i wonder if you have any theories or if any theories are emerging about why this brazenness with cameras on? >> reporter: well, i think this is really a warning for reporters and for the public

that initial police accounts and reports shouldn't be taken as gospel, as they so often have been. i think it's also an important warning that for those who believed that video and audio were going to solve all of our policing challenges in this country, that it was going to pave the way for reform. some officers are use this to their advantage as well, they can use audio, obscure video, use those elements to construct a new reality, to at least muddy the reality that might be right in front of us. i think this case is such a stark example of that. what we see is not what we hear. you would have a completely different understanding and experience of this traffic violation, of this encounter with tyre nichols if all you could do was listen to it. and you hear officers, you know, say he reached for his gun. we have a whole team of people who have watched this video again and again and again,

unable to find a shred of evidence that happened. we can't even find evidence of the beginning of the alleged reckless driving that tyre nichols is said to have engaged in. the reality is being distorted and these tools we thought would lead to change or give communities sort of more bargaining power in their relationship with police departments, that police have found a way to use those tools, too. we have an obligation, i think, now to really listen to community voices when it comes to these important investigations. the i want to call out our colleague who was talking to two men in their 20s, who said they had an encounter with one of the officers involved in this, officer emmitt martin, who had a violent encounter with him. they describe trying to flee from him at one point. he got them down on the ground, put a gun in their faces and said at one point he was going to blow their face off. it's now given us additional

insight into the relationship these officers have had with people in the community. i think it's so important that we keep pushing to do that kind of work because it builds a much clearer picture of the relationship, what happens in these neighborhoods, how many trust is lost when these encounters happen. and i think it's a really important reminder to everyone that what you hear at first when these incidents happen often is not the full truth or anything even close to it, nicolle. and that has really stuck with me, for my own work as a reporter who's going to, unfortunately, going to have to keep covering stories like this, but also as i talk to or educate audiences about how to make sense of it all. we can't trust those initial stories. >> representative plaskett, i want to it urn to reform with you in a minute, but first your reaction to antonia's reporting and the facts on the ground as they continue to quickly develop. >> well, i just want to thank

her, first of all, for the in-depth analyses she's been providing to the general public. and the narrative you're trying to bring forward is so incredibly important. you know, this congressional black caucus is looking not just for reform and not just accountability, but also transparency. and i think that that's something that's desperately needed in policing in the united states. you know, not only am i a member of the congressional black caucus, but i come from a look law enforcement my family. my father, grandfather, uncle, cousins. my father was on the new york city police department for 30 years. what a good cop will tell you is that there's nothing more dangerous to a good cop than a bad cop. and the way we are going to deal with that is through the george floyd justice and policing. officers who are doing the right thing don't have anything to fear. but we would like to ban chokeholds, no-knock warrants in federal drug cases, as well as

some of the other components in it, which gives accountability to bad policing. even, yes, qualified immunity. for officers doing the right thing, there are measures that can be made in the reform of qualified immunity that only brings the agee yous cases that those individuals have to be responsible for, along with a national database. so the bad police officers cannot go from one jurisdiction, be fired, go to another jurisdiction and bring those same bad practices. >> i have to sneak in a quick break. but i want to ask you how we make that happen. i think there is this tragic cycle of hyperfocus and then nothing happens. if i could ask you to stick around through a quick break, we'll be right back. a quick br we'll be right back.

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please call now. if operators are busy with all the other caring people, please wait patiently, or you can go to loveshriners.org to give right away. - [alec] big or small, your gift helps us all. - [both] thank you. (giggling) we are back with nbc's antonia hylton and congress woman stacey plaskett. tell me how we sustain, not you or the democrats, but how do we as a country sustain focus and make sure it happens? >> you all are the fourth defenses, pillar of our government the fourth defenses, pillar of our government on us all by bringing it up, by the immediate yam the members of congress of the congressional black caucus, which are led in this congress by steven horseford have requested a meeting with the president he's going to be meeting with

members of the congressional black caucus, and we're going push him and request they bring this up during thinks state of the union address, that this is something that is part of your union, something that we as a country need to work through together, and his leadership is critically important additionally there are executive orders that the president can make in term of collecting data, forcing law enforcement to be accountable in some ways and of course we all hear as members of congress, those of us who are concerned with this, are going to continue to press for negotiations and call out our colleagues who are trying to dismis dismiss thi or say so many of us are defunding the police. that is not what this is about. s this about giving police better tools to protect and tev the community they're in but also bring accountability to those that do not want to do that. i think having grants and supports and as all things we do

in government, we give states the ability to take grants and they've got to do reporting. they've got to be accountable for the funding. if you don't want to follow that accountable, then you don't qualify for the funding. iny some way that needs to be done as well for policing in the united states. we've got to keep them accountable. >> nbc's antonia hilton and congresswoman stacy plaskett. congresswoman, i takepl your t point. we'll keep this conversation going with your help. thank you so much for spending time with us. quick break. we'll be right back. quick break. we'll be right back. at up? kaya? - excuse me? do the research, todd. - listen to me. kayak searches hundreds of travel sites to find you great deals on flights, cars and hotels. - they're lying to you. - who's they? kayak? - arr! - open your eyes! - compare hundreds of travel sites at once. kayak. search♪one and done. - think about a child you love.

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for four years, the former president was shoveling you know what, and now we're going to put real shovels in the ground wielded by real american workers. that's the basic contrast between this presidency and the last. >> senate majority leader chuck schumer calling it like he sees it, drawing a sharp contrast between president joe biden and his predecessor, whose administration often promised infrastructure week yet never, ever, ever managed to deliver. the current president joe biden is making multiple stops this week to highlight the success of his $1 trillion infrastructure bill. today visiting a tunnel connecting manhattan and new jersey whose badly needed repairs are being funded by this bill. the tunnel had been heavily damage in the 2012 by hurricane sandy. efforts to repair it for

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thank you so much for letting us into your homes during these extraordinary times. we are grateful. "the beat" with ari melber starts right nowell hi, ari. >> hi, nicolle. thanks so much. welcome, everyone. i'm ari melber. there are developments tonight on several trump cases, and i have a lawyer who's breaking news. the video you may have seen glimpses of, although it broke today is donald trump under oath, this never before seen video in