this is how the news unfolded today in nashville. this is how the newsunfolded on live tv in that city as it was happening. this is on the channel 4 local news in nashville. >> we're hearing from their administrators letting them know that they are okay and that they are monitoring the situation closely. holly, amanda. >> yeah, speaking of that i'm getting emails from my child's school that they're going into lockdown at this time just as a precaution, and that one of my other children's schools is working with security to make sure that they've got everything safe. >> it's going to be okay. >> all right. this is big country, there is something like 800 different local news stations from coast to coast, and there's an obvious reaction to that video, right? . you watch that and you go, wow, what are the odds that this

person who has kids in schools that are being locked down in reaction to the shooting today is also responsible for reporting on that shooting. it's uncanny, right? you feel for the anchor in that moment, both responsible for covering it and conveying to the public what's going on and also experiencing in her own life, in her own family's life in that moment what it means for them to be in the midst of that same crisis. all right? what are the odds that something like that could happen? that the people who are covering the news will end up having a personal connection to the very gun violence they are responsible for reporting on. it turns out in this country the odds of that are pretty good.

>> hearing from their administrators letting them know that they are okay and that they are monitoring the situation closely. holly, amanda. >> yeah, speaking of that, i'm getting emails from my child's school that they're going into lockdown at this time just as a precaution and at one of my other children's schools is working with security to make sure that they've got everything safe. >> all right. >> this is part of the live coverage today in nashville, and that was not the only incident like that where somebody involved in covering that local news event as it unfolded also had a personal connection to what they were reporting on. this was also today in nashville. >> we do anticipate this news conference starting any moment. this will be the first official news conference where we can hear where police are at in their investigation. joy is joining us live with some

perspective, personal perspective on this as well. joy lynn. >> yeah, there's actually no words for what's going on today. i'm actually a school shooting survivor myself. it happened years ago. i was in eighth grade, and all this is bringing -- it's just flooding back flashbacks for me and what i went through with my classmates. i was actually in the hallway during break when the gunman opened fire shooting one of my peers and killing them and just after hearing the gunshots i just knew to run. i hid underneath the risers in my choir class, and those minutes and hours of waiting to be released by police officers, that just felt like a lifetime. i knew my phone was taken, it was turned off so that no one could find me. i lost track of the gunman, didn't know where he was, and just all of that fear and emotion. i know my family was trying to get in contact with me. i know that they found out that i was at the scene of that school shooting.

again, this happened many years ago when i was in middle school, but not being able to get in contact with them, and then being reunited with them eventually, i'll never forget my mom's emotion. she was so emotional and, yeah, so i know exactly what some of these kids are going through today, and it's going to take a lot of thoughts and prayers and a lot of support to get through this, these tough times. so my thoughts and prayers are with them. >> absolutely. >> back in the studio. >> back to you in the studio. you're watching that and you think, you know, again, what are the odds that this person who in this case survived a school shooting as a kid, grew up to be a tv reporter, and in her job she then just so happened to be the reporter on duty the same day that there was a school shooting, just like the one that she personally survived. except this time she's grown up and now she's covering it as a news reporter. what are the odds? what are the odds that people who cover the news will end up

having this kind of personal connection to the gun violence they are responsible for reporting on? well, this was news channel 5 this afternoon, another local station in nashville. >> i am here now with hannah, and i understand you've been given a message? >> yeah, so i wanted to make sure it was okay with her before i talked about her experience. my mother-in-law is the front desk angel. >> for sure. >> she is, and she was -- she was at the school this morning. however, diana was able to come out of this safe. she actually stepped away to take a break, i mean, and that is why right now i am just -- i'm torn. >> sure, it's probably -- could have saved her life that she stepped away. >> correct. >> this nightmarish phenomenon of news reporters, news anchors

finding themselves covering gun violence that is in realtime threatening their own families or that is in realtime calling back to the previous school shootings that they themselves have survived. i mean, these dynamics, i mean, especially for those of us in this business, it's like something that you want to wake yourself up from, right? but it's not just happening here and there. it is not even just a phenomenon that is unique to nashville. this, for example, was wednesday. this was five days ago in denver, colorado. >> sandra, that is so encouraging to hear as a parent. excuse me, my son just came up and i have not seen him. i'm sorry, i have not seen my kid since this all went down, so just really -- i'm so sorry. i'm so sorry. i'm just finishing this real quick, okay? are you good? okay. i'm so sorry. there's no way you would have let your kid walk by.

>> if you need to step aside, please do. >> okay. okay. he's good. you're good? okay. he's good. but yeah, he's the one who was telling me what was happening, and my sister telling me what her daughter was telling her. >> he was the one who was telling me what was happening. this reporter's source inside the school, the one giving her realtime information about the shooter in that building, her source was her own son who's a student at that school. that was five days ago. just a few months ago it happened in st. louis, a radio reporter live on the air when her 17-year-old daughter texted her that there was an active shooter inside her school. quote, this morning i was on the air when my daughter began texting me that her school was on lockdown, sirens screaming. then i have to begin talking on the air about the latest school shooting in america, the one at my daughter's school. that was october in st. louis. look at these text messages. this is an 18-year-old college freshman, emma riddle. she's in her dorm room at

michigan state earlier this year when she sent these texts to her dad. the police say the shooter's at the im east building, which is right next to us. i'm in my dorm. we're still in lockdown, he hasn't been caught. her dad replies, what can i do? and emma writes back i'm hiding understood my desk with my roommate, pray please, i love you. her dad writes back, i love you so much. you're going to be okay. emma writes next, quote, i never thought i would have to go through this again. because before emma riddle survived a school shooting her freshman year of college weeks ago at freshman state, the same girl had previously survived a shooting at her high school when a gunman opened fire there and killed three students and injured eight others. that was only in 2021. then she graduated high school, went off to michigan state for college, right into another mass shooting. this young woman has survived two school shootings in the span

of 15 months. gun murders, mass gun murders are so common in this country that it's entirely possible that you might survive a mass shooting only to endure another one. that is a thing that happens now in our country. it is statistically possible. gun murders are, in fact, so common in this country that the shooter in one attack could shoot and kill 11 people, drive to a nearby parking lot to kill himself at the site of where another mass shooting had occurred just a few years prior. that literally happened earlier this year. the shooter in the monterey park, california, mass shooting, you remember, the guy who shot up that dance hall and killed all those innocent people during the lunar new year celebrations in monterey park, after he killed all those people in the dance hall, he then went to a parking lot and shot himself there. it was the parking lot of a bowling alley where a separate mass shooting had killed three people in 2021. mass shootings are so common in this country that if you yourself are the survivor of a mass shooting you might even one day find yourself on vacation

with your family and on vacation you might find yourself down the road from another mass shooting in progress. that happened today to a woman named ashby beasley in nashville. the press conference location was set up for police officials to brief reporters on what they knew. when police officials were done briefing reporters, ashby went up there herself as an american citizen caught in the middle of this one too, and she said this. >> aren't you guys tired of being here and having to cover all these mass shootings? i'm from highland park, illinois, my son and i survived a mass shooting over the summer. i am in tennessee on a family vacation with my son visiting my sister-in-law. i have been lobbying in d.c. since we survived a mass shooting in july. i have met with over 130 lawmakers. how is this still happening? how are our children still dying, and why are we failing them? gun violence is the number one

killer of children and teens. it has overtaken cars. assault weapons are contributing to the border crisis and fentanyl, we are arming cartels with our guns and our loose gun laws and these shootings and these mass shootings will continue to happen until our lawmakers will step up and pass gun safety legislation. aren't you guys tired of this? are you guys sick of it? we have to do something. we all have to call our lawmakers, and we all have to make our lawmakers make change now or this is going to keep happening, and it's going to be your kid and your kid and your kid and your kid next because it's just a matter of time. >> she just survived another mass shooting in highland park, illinois. she survived that with her son. she says her son is still deeply traumatized by that, they went on a family vacation. the family vacation visiting tennessee today when she and her family end up in the middle of another mass shooting. the fact that reporters are covering shootings at their own

kids' schools, that people are surviving multiple mass shootings before they are legally allowed to drink, these aren't crazy coincidences. this is a measure of the prevalence of this problem in our country. this kind of stuff is happening over and over and over again because mass shootings really do happen that frequently in the united states. in terms of today's at this hour, police say the shooter is dead. the shooter is a 28-year-old tennessee resident and former student of the school who identifies as transgender, although there was some confusion around that for much of the day today. the shooter has no previous criminal record, was reportedly carrying three firearms, an ar-15 style rifle, an ar style pistol as well as a hand gun. police believe at least two of those weapons were obtained legally in nashville. police say they're still working on a motive inside the shooter's apartment. they say they found some sort of manifesto as well as other writings that police say pertained to today's date.

authorities are definitively calling this today a targeted attack, one that was carefully planned with detailed maps and surveillance that took place ahead of the incident. and what's the end result? two little girls and a little boy ages 8 and 9 were killed as were three adult staff and faculty were all in their early 60s. joining us now is the mayor of nashville, tennessee, john cooper. thank you so much for being with us. i'm so sorry for what happened in your city. >> thank you for having me. this is our worst day. nashville has had challenges and tragedies before, but we've gotten through that, but this is our worst day. we're a resilient city, but it's a shock to have to add our name to the list of places where there have been mass killings of children. >> what can you tell us about the victims, one of the things that was not clear in the immediate aftermath but seems

clearer now is that while there were six people shot and kill, three little kids and three adults, it doesn't seem like there were other people who were injured, who were hurt and in need of care afterwards. can you tell us anything about the logistics about this, about the victims, about what you know about the circumstances of these deaths? >> well, the police are working hard, i'd suspect either tonight or tomorrow they'll be releasing body camera footage and maybe some footage from the school as they're trying to establish the time line. the three adults were two teachers and one custodian, and then the three children, but the order in which this happened and how it was this particular six i don't think is established. >> i've been told tonight, mr. mayor, that you were able to speak with president biden earlier this evening. i'm wondering if you can tell us

anything about that and what he's been able to offer. >> well, i appreciate the president's call. i mean, it's a tragedy. it's one as he's said, he's far too familiar with. he's spent a lot of his lifetime in politics dealing with this increasing epidemic of gun violence where guns and gun violence is the number one cause of childhood death, which is just shocking and needs to be changed. i'm grateful he was very knowledgeable about the amazing response time by our police department, which arrived quickly and was very effective with the shooter. it could have been much worse clearly, and again, our very brave officers rushed to gunfire and engaged the shooter, and we're grateful for that because it could have been muchpáaj2■ wn a school filled with so many

children. >> mayor cooper, is there anything that you in nashville need tonight that you don't have? >> well, we need to support each other. i mean, nashville is a resilient city. we're a welcoming city. it's a shock that it's happened here, but there's a1>o your thoughts and prayers. and again, i think accepting that a terrible evil thing has happened. and of course we should feel bad about it. >> mayor john cooper of

nashville, tennessee, sir, thank you for joining us on a really difficult night. the whole country has nashville in their thoughts tonight, thank you. >> well, we appreciate the country having us in those thoughts and prayers, and again, let's just hope that we can get beyond this epidemic of gun violence. >> thank you, sir. good luck to you. >> thank you. >> as scarry and as horrifying as the scene was today in nashville, it was, of course, very familiar, and it brought to mind one of the worst incidents of gun violence anywhere in the world. it's been a little over ten years since a young man with an assault rifle killed 26 people at sandy hook elementary school in newtown, connecticut. one of them was 6-year-old dylan hockley, in the aftermath of the sandy hook tragedy, dylan's mom nicole summoned the strength to become a leading voice on the issue of gun violence, sandy hook promise is a nonprofit that's dedicated to trying to

prevent violence in schools, and in homes and in communities in the most practical ways. they've reached more than 18 million people with violence prevention programs, more than 23,000 schools and youth organizations nationwide. they have reached tons and tons of people trying, again, to find practical solutions to stop this epidemic. after the shooting in nashville today, nicole hockley said this online. she said, quote, we have the solutions, yet we mostly don't use them. why? because too many people love guns more than children and fight against solid measures. praying for the families, pissed off at cowards and profiteers joining us is nicole hockley. ms. hockley, it is nice to see you. i'm sorry that it's under terrible circumstances. thank you for taking time to be with us tonight. >> thank you, rachel, it's always good to speak to you, but always under awful situations.

>> yeah. >> let me ask you to expound a little bit on what you said today in the immediate aftermath of this news. you said we have solutions we don't -- we mostly don't use them. you said you were, you know, praying for these families, but you said you're angry. you said you're pissed off at the cowards and profiteers. what did you mean by that? >> i am so heartbroken and continue to be heartbroken every single day. there are so many instances of gun violence, so many instances of school shootings. my heart just can't take it anymore, and now i'm just really pissed off. there are too many people that just want to debate about this and want to talk about why we shouldn't talk about it now or that now isn't the time or that we need to protect gun owners first, and i honestly think that the majority of gun owners want to see these solutions too. they probably purchased their guns to protect their families. they don't want gun violence.

they don't want school shootings, and neither does anyone else, so why don't we take the solutions that are on the plate right now, such as safe storage, such as background checks, such as magazine limits or even assault weapons balance and do something about it, rather than this constant, endless cycle of conversation that actually doesn't go anywhere when we know these solutions work and we know it's what people want. >> those practical measures that you just described, thinking particularly of the first three before the assault weapons ban, safe storage, background checks, magazine limits, the public opinion polling on that shows that not only do americans want those things and support those kinds of practical solutions in overwhelming numbers, most gun owners do too, and that's been true for a long time, and so i guess i'm wondering if somebody who's been working on this, again, in very practical ways, do you see any distance closing between the views of americans including gun owners and the

advocacy groups and the politicians who won't allow for practical solutions like those? >> i think the distance is closing, and we saw a big gap in that decrease last year with the passage of the bipartisan safer communities act where we saw that congress could come together from both sides and agree on a set of common sense legislation that would prevent violence, in particular gun violence. however, it's not enough. we noticed so much more we need to do. my organization continues to focus on teaching the signs. how do you recognize someone who's going into crisis or who is in danger of hurting themselves or someone else and taking action, but we also need the legislation to support and enforce that, and i still think there are far too many politicians in particular that are focused on their careers more than about being on the right side of history and doing the right things by kids. that needs to change, and also, there's still a gun industry that is more focused on profits

and measures -- you know, we still hear them talk about more guns, that's the way to prevent bad people with guns. that's the way to prevent criminals. not every shooter is a criminal. they don't start that way. they start as a normal person and under a series of circumstances it escalates into violence. the difference is they have access to firearms. so if we are better about how we ensure is someone capable of having a firearm, are they mentally able to have that firearm. are they in crisis or not, and stop thinking about money. stop thinking about careers. think about your children, how do you want their school to be, do you want them to come home every single day. if you don't care and continue on the path you are. if you care at all, then you need to do something about it. >> nicole hockley, the cofounder and ceo of sandy hook promise who knows of what she speaks. thank you so much for taking time to be here tonight, nicole.

time to be here tonight, nicole. it is always good to see you. i swear you'll be back here on i swear you'll be back here on happier times soon.e? >> thank you, rachel. >> all right, more ahead here tonight. we'll be right back. stay with us. evyone's gonna need more tide. it's a mess out there. that's why there's 85% more tide in every power pod. see? ah. (pensive music) (footsteps crunching) (pensive music) (birds tweeting)

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to each their home.

so this is just about like roughly one minute of video that i want to show you. so this is your cue if you're like washing dishes or doing something else. go ahead, put it up there.

you see in the video there's this woman and she's holding that blue flag with the stars on it. that is the flag of the eu, that's the european union flag. you can see there's this young man at her feet that got knocked down just blowing across the pavement, a water cannon that's being aimed at them, and then you see her start to get help. the guy in the red cap comes forward first to help her stand so she won't be knockeddown and pushed back by the water cannon. then you see there's the other people as they realize she's still standing, that she's not afraid. i'm sure she is afraid, but she's still waving that flag. she's refusing to be pushed back, and when they realize she's not backing down, more people join her and link arms with each other around her to hold her up, and it's mostly men, it's at least one other woman, and they're holding onto each other so they can keep standing against this water cannon, and the people in front get knocked down by the water cannon, but they're standing together. ultimately there's enough of

them so that she's able to stay standing to keep waving that flag, and eventually faced with more and more people coming forward to hold onto each other in this group that they can no longer knock down, eventually the police stop. they go from trying to knock down this one woman with the flag to turning it off. they stop when everybody comes forward to back her up. this was earlier this month in georgia, georgia the country, not georgia the state. this is in their capital city of tab lee see. these protesters, you should know, they won. not just that woman who kept waving that flag but the protesters she was with, they won. russia has been trying to exert more control over all the countries in the former soviet union including georgia, and russia basically told the georgian government that they should pass a law like putin did in russia back in 2012. it's called the foreign agent law, and it's basically designed to shut down civil society.

let the government close down organizations and advocacy groups and news organizations and prosecute people for belonging to them if those organizations criticize the government or if they do anything else that the government doesn't like. putin did this in russia in 2012 to shut down civil society in his country, to get rid of his rivals. critics, to shut down all dissent. now he's trying to get other countries that he wants to be in the russian orbit, including georgia, he's trying to get those other countries to do this too. and the problem in tiblisi is that the people in georgia don't want that. they don't want to be some russian outpost. by a large margin they want to be part of the west. they want to join nato,i,ñ for example. they want to join the european union. hence this woman waving the eu flag. and when russia told the georgian government they needed to pass this new law that would

essentially get rid of civil society and journalism in their country, the people in georgia poured into the streets night after night to protest, and it was peaceful protests. they did spray paint things like no to putin and eff putin everywhere, both in georgia and in english. georgian politicians even from a rulg party started coming out and saying that e they were with the protesters. they did not support this russian pro authoritarian law. eventually that government, they also freed who have been arrested in this big peaceful protest in the streets of the georgian capital. this was less than three weeks ago. it worked. the people did it. they stopped that law that would have undone civil society, voluntary organizations, advocacy groups, journalism. that was just this month, that was earlier this month in the nation of georgia.

here's what that same dynamic looks like in the nation of israel. we have been covering this for a few weeks here now on this show. these have been the largest mass demonstrations, the largest popular protests in the history of that country since it was founded 75 years ago. the prime minister there has been indicted on serious corruption charges, perhaps coincidentally he decided at the same time that he now believes the court system needs to be no longer independent. he's decided that he wants to take control of the judicial system now, but the people of that country have taken to the streets to say no, no, you cannot have a democracy without law enforcement that is independent and free from political control. people turn out in the streets all over israel in huge unprecedented numbers. members of the military say they too objected. they said without a real court system, they would be forced to

comply with unconstitutional illegal orders. they therefore conveyed that there were going to be problems in the military as well as in the streets if they went ahead of this judicial takeover. this weekend the defense minister said, you know what? we cannot do this. i'm a part of this government, but i'm in opposition now to what the prime minister is trying to do in taking over the legal system. defense secretary came out and said, no, we cannot do this. and when the prime minister fired the defense secretary in response, people came out overnight, last night by the hundreds of thousands, and then today they turned it up even further. all universities in the country closed, no flights out of the country's main airport. ports closed. malls closed. stores, fast food chains, libraries, museums all closed. main roads blocked. hospitals, hospitals suspended everything but emergency care. even the diplomats went on

strike, their embassies and consulates around the world closed. the head of their consulate in new york quit his job in protest, and every major city in that country people turned out in the streets waving flags, singing the national anthem, saying our legal system stays independent. you will not take it over. we are not giving up this pillar of what makes us a democracy. they also have now won. today they won. the prime minister delayed and delayed and delayed the speech he was supposed to make to the public about how he was going ahead with this plan no matter what, but then finally he did give that speech and he announced, okay, actually, we're shelving it. we're not going to force it through like they were planning, at least not yet. so it worked in both places, less than three weeks apart, one place today in israel, one place earlier this month in georgia.

people in the hundreds of thousands saying no really loudly. i mean, they honestly ran a clinic on what it means to say no to authoritarian style takeovers to stick up for your democracy, to know what makes your democracy real, and to say, no, you guys cannot take that away. we will defend our democracy. we will defend. it is not yours to take. it is ours collectively and we say no. it worked. the push toward authoritarian forms of government is real. all over the world there's pressure on democracies everywhere, authoritarian governments arising everywhere. but also everywhere there are citizens of democratic countries who get it and who aren't giving it up without a fight, and the secret, of course, is that when you fight, you very often win, and when you don't fight, you always lose. tonight in the state of georgia here in the united states, republicans have just within the past hour finalized legislation

that will allow them to remove from office the prosecutor, the georgia prosecutor in fulton county who is leading a criminal investigation that could result in criminal charges against former president donald trump. the republican governor in georgia, brian kemp, has said he supports this legislation. he is therefore expected to sign it. in the face of the leader of their party facing potential indictment, georgia republicans have decided for the first time in their state the judicial system will be subject to a new partisan test, the republican-controlled legislature tonight has awarded itself the ability to remove prosecutors who bring cases they do not like. and this is not in georgia the country. this is georgia here. and i put this up alongside what just happened in georgia, what just happened in israel because i do think sometimes it's easier to see the pattern of these things when you see them far away, when you see them happening in other countries,

especially when they happen this totally disparate parts of the world. but this one, this one's happening to us here at home. the question, honestly, is not why republicans are trying to dismantle this part of our legal system. the question for us is whether anybody's going to stand up for that part of our legal system and try to save it. more ahead tonight, stay with us. i just booked an appointment and a certified hearing care professional evaluated my hearing loss and helped me find the right device calibrated to my unique hearing needs. now i enjoy every moment. the quiet ones and the loud ones. make a sound decision. call 1-800 miracle now, and book your free hearing evaluation. when you really need to sleep. make a sound decision. call 1-800 miracle now, you reach for the really good stuff. zzzquil ultra helps you sleep better and longer when you need it most. its non-habit forming and powered by the makers of nyquil.

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last week the office of the new york district attorney who's investigating former president donald trump, that office was surrounded by an intense police presence, and of course a full-time medium scrum. in the midst of that, one sitting republican u.s. senator said that alvin bragg, that new york prosecutor, should himself be jailed. he should be incarcerated. the d.a.'s office also reportedly received three straight days of bomb threats last week. that same d.a. was also last week mailed an envelope containing some unknown white powder, which turned out to be not something that would kill you, but they didn't know that until it was tested and it was accompanied by a death threat with no fewer than 13 exclamation points on it. amid all of that, the new york prosecutor, alvin bragg, sent a note to his staff saying we do not tolerate attempts to intimidate our office or threaten the rule of law in new york. on that point of intimidation, if this prosecutor's office and

all prosecutors' office really don't tolerate attempts at intimidation, it's worth asking what the implications of that might be and for whom. like what does that mean in practical terms? because the threats to prosecutor alvin bragg and his office in new york, they're not arising out of the mist. you know, they're not rising out of some unknowable mee as ma. these threats are coming because the subject of one of his ongoing criminal investigations appears to be trying to stoke these threat. former president donald trump last week warned that if he did get charged by alvin bragg's office the result would be, quote, death and destruction. he then called mr. bragg a degenerate psychopath. in another post he complained, quote, our country is being destroyed as they tell us to be peaceful. and just in case that was still too subtle, he then posted this. a juxtaposed photo of trump wielding a baseball bat right next to alvin bragg's head.

we have no idea when or even if the manhattan d.a.'s office is going to charge former president trump with anything, but in the meantime, as alvin bragg says his office does not and cannot tolerate it intimidation, this all feels pretty intimidating at a very practical level. and then there's the issue, the broader issue of what happens when the leader of a political party starts explicitly endorsing violence against the government, at least pretty explicitly endorsing it. this weekend the same former president held a rally in waco, texas, on the 30th anniversary of a federal siege that's been invoked for decades by the white power movement and the violent ultra right as a justification for citizens using violence against the u.s. government. when he combined that staging with an extended homage at that rally to people who have committed violence against the government, when he praised people at that rally who are in prison because of their alleged participation in the attack on the u.s. capitol on january 6th.

praising people for committing violence against the government, putting his rally at the site of a place that for decades has been used to justify violence against the government, saying that the government is a degenerate psychopath that's bringing charges against him and now will result in death and destruction. when you put those things together, that's the sort of thing that makes you want to call on the folks who are experts in this kind of thing, experts particularly in where it leads. joining us now is new york university history professor ruth ben gee yacht, she is the author of the book "strong men. from mussolini to the president" thank you so much for being with us. >> sure. >> let me first just ask you, if you feel like -- the wrong way around, juxtapoing these items looking at these as sort of a concerning way in these patterns seems off to you or in any way inappropriate. >> no, not at all. it's one part of the

authoritarian playbook. the people who authoritarians go after because they're all very corrupt are, you know, prosecutors, judges, the modern playbook as you link them to george soros, you link them to degenerates. putin will, you know, trump up sex crime charges so they can be seen as deviants. and they also want to poison in the public's mind journalists. so basically anyone who can prosecute or harm or expose the corruption and crimes of these individuals, trump being one of them, becomes a target. and at the same time, you need to kind of prep the public to be ready to defend you. it's very interesting to me that trump started talking about this possible indictment and made a spectacle out of it because it feeds his victim hood complex. it's very important that he can be the victim of the deep state,

and the roster of enemies have to keep expanding, right? at cpac and at waco, you know, the enemies list is longer ask longer. in waco at the rally, he had placards with witch hunt passed out. >> preprinted. >> yes, so they would get on tv. so it's very important with his bonding with the public to be the victim, and the victim of the deep state. it's also lucrative. since this idea of his possible indictment came out, he's raised over $1.5 million. >> in terms of the importance of him defining himself as a victim, he's effectively making a case to his supporters that extreme action is justified to rescue him, to stand up for him, to stop his persecutors who are terrible people. how does violence fit into that? obviously the january 6th example, the people who have been prosecuted for their role

in bringing violence to bear that day are having to contend with the consequences of that in the criminal justice system. he's lionizing them and talking about them too as having been unfairly persecuted. how does the threat of violence, the threat of political violence in his name, how is that evolving now as he faces potential indictment? >> yeah, i've been tracking this for years, and i wrote a report for the january 6th committee on how trump since 2015, he used his radicalization sites, and he did what all authoritarians have done since mussolini and hitler. he wanted to change the public's perception of violence because in order to have an extremist movement and a private army, which is basically what he and also bolsonaro, right, today you maybe can't get the military. so you have a civilian army of thugs, of extremists. so to have people see violence

as not repugnant, you have to change its perception. you have to change the idea that perhaps violence can be morally justified, necessary, and even patriotic. trump was already doing this, and now there's a huge push with the help of fox and the gop to -- because they're all involved in this criminal cover-up of january 6th violence, and so now at waco, the people who are sitting in jail for january 6th, now there's the january 6th crier and they're patriots and marjorie taylor greene is there calling them patriots. she visited them in prison. >> it's not a thin line though, you have to say both, they did nothing wrong, and also their violence, to the extent they committed violence was justified. that's a double-sided argument. >> yes, and it's been like that since fascism. on the one hand, the strong men give license to be violent.

he tells people it's justified and he rewards violence. on the other hand, violence has to be sanitized. it has to be made palatable to the broader public. so they're always walking that line between, you know, inciting violence, and also having to whitewash it and massage it, and that's what trump is doing now many authoritarians have done. >> a profess of history at nyu, she's the author of the book "strong men," her news letter is called lucid. it's good to have you here. vacu booking.com, booking. yeah. ♪ ♪ start your day with nature made. the #1 pharmacist recommended vitamin and supplement brand. what causes a curve down there?

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