just vote for desantis in 2028 if we get her in in 2024. think about the young people. >> take a lighter. >> there it is. >> there it is. >> there it is. i love this pairing. i would like to see it again. >> thank you. >> in some form. our thanks to jeremy o'hare ris and andrew ross sorkin. superinteresting thinkers. keep it locked. we're moments away from stephanie ruhle's exclusive interview with vice president harris tonight 7:00 p.m. eastern which is in 20 seconds. it's a special hour featuring stephanie and anchored by our colleague, chris hayes. keep it locked for the big vp harris interview on msnbc right now. ♪♪ good evening. i'm chris hayes. no, we did not skip an hour. joy reed is at the emmy's

tonight. "the reidout" has been nominated for outstanding breaking news. well deserved. congratulations to joy and the team. tonight, i'm going to be with you for a very special edition of "all in" two hours. we have an exclusive vp kamala harris. stephanie ruhle sat down with the vice president in pittsburgh, pennsylvania, for an in-depth conversation about the economy. today vice president harris made her economic pitch to voters ahead of election day also in pittsburgh. >> i intend to chart a new way forward. and grow america's middle class. donald trump intends to take america backwards. for donald trump, our economy works best if it works for those who own the big skyscrapers, not

those who actually build them. not those who wire them. not those who mop the floors. >> vice president said more than 100 million americans will get a middle class tax break and vowed to lower housing costs. a sharp contrast to donald trump whose economic policies consist of new tariffs on all imported goods, tax cuts for corporations and the wealthy, continuation of the first term, an unprecedented crackdown on immigration and mass deportation scheme, along with a grab bag of random proposals suggested by elon busk and other billionaires. an agenda that goldman sachs when analyzing said would weaken the economy. analysts predicted very slight boost to gdp investment due to higher tax rates if vice president harris wins the white house. polls show americans are starting to feel better about the economy today. it's been an interesting trend. trump now averages a 6 percentage point edge on the

economy, compared with a 12 point lead against president biden earlier this year. that's according to analysis of five polls before and after biden dropped out. now, this trend line i think makes some sense, right? inflation is down significantly from those high peaks in 2022, 2023, the employment rate remains unemployment rate remains near historic lows. but at the same time, many critical swing voters still don't see how they will personally benefit from the democratic party's economic vision. vice president harris wants them to think otherwise shedding more light on her economic plan to, as she says, grow the middle class in a one on one interview with stephanie ruhle. here is that interview. >> madame vice president, you just laid out your economic vision for the future. >> yep. >> but still there are lots of americans who don't see themselves in your plans. for those who say these policies aren't for me. what do you say to them? >> well, if you are hard

working, if you have the dreams and the ambitions and the aspirations of what i believe you do, you're in my plan. i have to tell you, i really love and am so energized by what i know to be the spirit and character of the american people. we have ambition. we have aspirations. we have dreams. we can see what's possible. we have an incredible work ethic. but not everyone has the access to the opportunities that allow them to achieve those things. but we don't lack for those things. but not everyone, you know, gets handed stuff on a silver platter. and so my vision for the economy, i call it an opportunity economy, is about making sure that all americans, wherever they start, wherever they are, have the ability to actually achieve those dreams

and those ambitions, which include for middle class families just being able to know that their hard work allows them to get ahead, right? i think we can't -- we shouldn't aspire to have an economy that just allows people to get by. people want to do more than just get by, they want to get ahead. i come from the middle class. my mother raised my sister and me. she worked hard. she saved up. by the time i was a teenager, she was able to buy our first home. and you know, homeownership for too many people in our country now is elusive. you know, gone is the day of everyone thinking they could actually live the american dream. so part of my vision for the economy is let's deal with some of the everyday challenges that people face and address them with common sense solutions, such as affordable housing. >> over the last four years, there have been tremendous economic wince and you've just laid out a big plan, but still

polling shows that most likely voters still think donald trump is better to handle the economy. why do you think that is? >> well, here is what i know in terms of the facts. donald trump left us with the worst economy since the great depression, when you look at, for example, the employment numbers. >> it was during covid and employment was to high because we shut down the government, we shut down the country. >> even before the pandemic, he lost manufacturing jobs by most people's estimates at least 200,000. he lost manufacturing plants, ask the autoworkers how he lost auto plants. we have grown over 20 new auto plants. he has an agenda. let's just deal with right now going forward, not to mention what happened in the past. he has an agenda that would include making more difficult for workers to earn overtime. an agenda that would include cutting off access to small business loans for small

businesses. an agenda that includes tariffs to the point that the average working person will spend 20% more on everyday necessities. and an estimated $4,000 more a year on those everyday necessities. to the point that top economists in our country, from nobel laureates, to people at moodies and goldman sachs have compared my plan with his and said my plan would grow the economy. his would shrink the economy. some of them have actually assessed that his plan would increase inflation and invite a recession by the middle of next year. so, the facts remain that donald trump has a history of taking care of very rich people. and i'm not mad at anybody for being rich. but they should pay their fair share. but tax cuts for the billionaires and top corporations in our country. and then not really paying much attention to middle class

families. my perspective, on the economy, is when you grow the middle class, america's economy is stronger. and there's empirical evidence to prove my point correct. >> then let me ask you about taxes because lots of people will say, i don't like donald trump, but he cut my taxes. he didn't just cut corporate taxes, he cut individual taxes. now that expires next year. and there's some people confused saying i don't know what's going to happen next year. under a harris administration, at what income level should someone expect their taxes to go up and that state and local tax deduction that's currently capped and matters to a lot of people in blue states, are you going to lift that cap? >> so, first of all, when it relates to anybody making less than $400,000 a year, your taxes will not go up. your taxes will not go up. and in fact, under my plan, taxes for 100 million americans will actually be cut, including $6,000 a year for young couples, for the first year of their

child's life in a tax cut, a tax credit essentially. by expansion of the child tax credit. why is that? because during the first year of a young couple, of a person's child's life, they are going to need help buying a crib, buying a car seat. and we all benefit when they're actually able to do what they naturally want to do to take care of their child. >> expanding that child tax credit or you mentioned housing before, giving that extra money for a first home, if you can't raise corporate taxes, or if gop takes control of the senate, where do you get the money to do that? do you still go forward with those plans and borrow? >> but we're going to have to raise corporate taxes. and we're going to have to raise -- we're going to have to make sure that the biggest corporations and billionaires pay their fair share. that's just it. it's about paying their fair share. i'm not mad at anyone for achieving success. but everyone should pay their fair share. and it is not right that the

teachers and the firefighters that i meet, everyday across our country, are paying a higher tax than the richest people in our country. >> bill gates just said this week, if he was in charge of taxes he would have paid more. how do you find that line to make sure corporations are paying their leaving our country? >> i work with a lot of ceos. i have spent a lot of time with ceos. i'm going to tell you that the business leaders who are actually part of the engine of america's economy, agree that people should pay their fair share. they also agree that when we look at a plan, such as mine, that is about investing the middle class, investing in new industries, investing in bringing down costs, invest in entrepreneurs like small businesses that the overall economy is stronger and everyone benefits. part of my plan for the economy is investing in new industries in a way that we have active

partnership with the private sector. i've worked with the private sector my entire career. even as vice president working with some of the biggest banks and biggest tech companies to increase by billions of dollars the money going into community banks to increase access to capital for small businesses. why do those biggest corporations and ceos do that, because they know those kinds of investments, like in our small businesses, in startups and entrepreneurs actually strengthens america's economy overall and everyone benefits. so this is not about bilking anybody, but it is certainly about saying, let's make sure that we create opportunities for everyone to grow wealth. i believe that it is not sufficient and it should not be our goal to just make sure everyone is working. that should be the baseline. that should be a given. and let's create an economy where people have the ability to buy a home, to start a business, to take a nice vacation from time to time. right? >> for people who want to buy a home, yes. getting a $25,000 kicker would

be great. but it's not just affording a home. we don't have enough in this country. >> you're absolutely right. >> and one of the main problems are regulations and rules, strict, strict rules at a local level. how does the federal government cut through all that red tape and get down to, the suburbs of pittsburgh and say, we're going to have to build some affordable housing here. how do you connect the two? >> so you're absolutely right. so across our country people rightly are concerned about the cost of housing. so homeownership to your point. we need more supply. that is without any question part of the solution. creating more supply under my plan includes creating tax incentives to work with the private sector and home builders. part of my goal and the plan would be to create 3 million new housing units for rent and for ownership by the end of my first term. it includes also what we must do to cut red tape. you're absolutely right. it takes far too long and there's too much bureaucracy associated with home building.

and i say that as a devote public servant. i know that we have to reduce the red tape and speed up what we need to do around building. and that is going to require working from the federal level with state and local governments. and it's going to be different in different places. depending on the needs of that community, the needs of that local government, that municipality. but working in consultation and coordination and also around incentives we can create. for example, some of the work is going to be through what we do in terms of giving benefits and assistance to state and local governments around transit dollars. and looking wholistically at the connection between that and housing. and looking wholistically at the incentives we in the federal government can create for local and state governments to actually engage in planning and wholistic manner that includes prioritizing affordable housing for working people. coming up, much more of stephanie ruhle's exclusive

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steel in pittsburgh. >> that's right. >> a japanese company wants to buy them. you are opposed to this idea. many people are. but if the deal doesn't go through, they have said people could lose jobs. they could lose mills. they could leave the state of pennsylvania. i mean that is like moving a liberty bell to newark. which is more important? >> it's most important that we maintain america's ability to have american manufacturing of steel by american workers for a number of reasons. which includes, again, back to

the point of growing our economy and how i think about the economyover all, investing in new industries. there is not a new industry that i can imagine that is not going to require steel as a manufacturing of steal as a fundamental part of what it accomplishes. and having american workers in an american company manufacturing that steel for those new industries is going to be critically important, not only in terms of our economy, but also in the context of national security. most people now realize if we didn't before the pandemic and the strain on supply chains and an overreliance on foreign manufacturing, that we have to be intentional about u.s.-based manufacturing. and of the products that we have to prioritize, steel is one of them. and that's always going to be my priority. >> steel workers matter in this country. unions matter. >> yes.

>> in 2016, donald trump connected with unions. he saw them. there was an emotional connection. but what he didn't do was deliver policy. in the last four years we have seen huge wins in this country for unions, but not all unions have gotten behind you. i want to understand when the teamsters decided not to endorse you, what was the reasoning? what are they looking for? >> well, let me go back to our just previous conversation. i'm proud to have the endorsement of the steel workers and almost every other major union in america because i stand by workers. and i stand by the importance of being able to join a union and to understand that the benefit and the value of unions. and i understand the importance of investing in new industries and working actively with the private sector to grow our economy. >> but i'm asking because there's this idea, we want something more from her. what is it? >> well, here is the thing, back

to your point about previous election cycles. donald trump made a whole lot of promises that he did not meet. and one would argue broke. look at lord's town. he said he was going -- >> don't sell your homes. >> yeah, don't sell your homes. what happened? it shut down. outsourcing under donald trump. his policies that are about putting, you know, tens to hundreds of percent tariffs -- >> john deere. >> yes. yes. so part of the challenge -- and i don't disagree that it's a challenge -- you have to earn the vote of everybody, is reminding people of fact. regardless of what somebody says in a small rally somewhere. and i think that's really important. and that's part of what i'm doing in this campaign is to remind people, just like here in pittsburgh, of the reality of who has stood with union labor, who stands for american manufacturing, who stands for american jobs. >> can i ask you about tariffs.

you just mentioned it. it's not just with one company. donald trump's sort of big idea is this broad-based tariffs across the board. you and many others have said that would be not only disastrous but it would be a direct tax on the american consumer. >> it would be a sales tax on the american people. in the independent economists have already measured this. by the sales tax of doing a 20% tariffs on all imports that he has described, would be a 20% sales tax in essence on basic necessities for the average american worker, average american family totaling almost $4,000 a year. that is no small matter. here in pittsburgh, i'm talking to a group of folks who work here, who live here and hear it might be $4,000 more a year for them, look, people can't afford that. >> but tariffs aren't unique to president trump. president biden has tariffs in place. he's actually looking to

potentially implement more. where do you come out on? is there a good tariff? a bad tariff? >> well, part of it is you just don't throw around the idea of tariffs across the board. that's part of the problem with donald trump. frankly, i'm going -- i say this in all sincerity, he's not serious about how he thinks about some of these issues. and one must be serious and have a plan and a real plan that's not just about some talking point ending in an exclamation at a political rally. but actually putting the thought into what will be the return on the investment? what will be the economic impact on everyday people? and when you look at my plans, you will see what those benefits will be. $25,000 down payment assistance for first-time home buyers. you know what that means? then your creating the ability of that working person to build intergenerational wealth. doing the work of a $6,000 child tax credit. doing the work of a $50,000 tax

deduction for first-time small businesses. startups because right now -- >> that's a real plan. >> it's a real plan because right now it's about paying attention to the detail and being serious about it. i'm serious about my enthusiasm and my -- for small businesses and my belief what they will do as part of america's economic engine. >> on friday -- sorry. >> so looking at the fact that right now the tax deduction is $5,000. nobody in this year of our lord 2024 can start a small business with $5,000. very few can. so extending it to $50,000 startups to generate the innovation and the ambition of the ideas that are present and among us but need the fuel to be able to actual achieve the goal. >> his plan is not serious when you lay it out like that but a serious problem over the last few years has been inflation. luckily it's cooling. but prices are still high. >> i agree with you. >> you said you want to take

this on by going after those who engage in price gouging. >> yeah. >> but as somebody who supports free markets, who is a capitalist, how do you go after price gouging without implementing price controls? because once we get in the zone, people start to get worried and they say, i don't know what she stands for. >> so, just to be very frank, i am never going to apologize for going after companies and corporations that take advantage of the desperation of the american people. and as attorney general i saw this happen. in the midst of an emergency, whether it be an extreme weather event or even the pandemic we saw it. where those few companies, not the majority, not most, but those few companies that would take advantage of the desperation of people and jack up prices. yeah, i'm going to go after them. yes, i'm going to go after them. and that is part of a much more

comprehensive plan on what we can do to bring down the cost of living, including housing, including the everyday needs of the american people. coming up, more of stephanie ruhle's interview with vice president kamala harris where she addresses trump's claim that he is a, quote, protector of women. that's next. don't go anywhere. it smells like food, it's what dogs are supposed to be eating. no living being should ever eat processed food for every single meal of their life. it's amazing to me how many people write in about their dogs changing for the better. the farmer's dog is just our way to help people take care of them. ♪

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we're back with more of stephanie ruhle's exclusive interview with vice president kamala harris. >> on friday, you are going to the border.

immigration is complicated. one of the issues is an economic one. and no one is eating cats and dogs in springfield, ohio. and i'm glad not to be talking about that but there are people there that are stressed, that feel that they're at capacity. communities around the country that have legal immigration, many have said we're at capacity. and many feel like the government has said to them, well, adapt. sit down, be quiet, this is how it is. what would a harris administration do for those communities who have taken in many, many legal immigrants but are at capacity. >> well, first of all, we do have a broken immigration system. >> uh-huh. >> and it needs to be fixed. and if we take a step back, months ago some of the most conservative members of the united states congress came together with others, proposed a border security bill. that would have put 1500 new border agents on the border to help those hard-working border agents who are there right now working around the clock. would have put more money into

stemming the flow of fentanyl, which is killing americans around our country and devastating communities. would have put more resources into our ability to prosecution trance-national criminal organizations which in my career i've prosecuted. donald trump got word of the bill, realized it was going to fix a problem he wanted to run on and told them to kill the bill. don't put it up for a vote. he killed a bill that would have actually been a solution because he wants to run on a problem instead of fixing a problem. and that's part of what needs to be addressed. and my pledge is that when elected president, if the american people will have me, i will bring that bill back and i will sign it into law. and we need a comprehensive plan that includes what we need to do to fortify not only our border but deal with the fact that we also need to create pathways for people to earn citizenship. i want to ask you about a little job and a big job. >> okay. >> the first one just a fact check. your opponent --

>> there's no little job. there's no such thing as a little job. >> fair, fair. because your opponent almost everyday seems to be talking about this. so i just want to ask you yes or no. at any point in your life have you served to all beef pattys, special sauce, lettuce cheese, on a sesame seed bun working at a mcdonald's, yes or no, that's it. >> i have. but it was not a small job. i did the fries. i mean, you know, yes. but i did. >> small period of time. let me ask you about a big job. >> to your point if you don't mind. before you get to the big job. there's a part of the reason i even talk about having worked at mcdonald's because there are people who work at mcdonald's in our country trying to raise a family -- i worked there as a student. i was a kid. who worked there trying to raise families and pay rent on that. and i think part of the difference between me and my opponent includes our prospective on the needs of the american people.

and what our responsibility then is to meet those needs. >> and to the big job. you have laid out policy in great detail. >> yep. >> but the economy is an unpredictable beast. and you are running for a job that takes extraordinary instinct and guts. >> yep. >> when's the last time you had to make a gut decision? this year is very prescribed. it's very controlled. >> yeah. probably the biggest gut decision i've made most recently is to choose my running mate. yeah. there were lots of good, incredible candidates. and ultimately that came down to a gut decision. >> i know i'm out of time, but then i just want to ask you a question from my gut. >> okay. >> because today we're talking about the economy. and people don't think often about reproductive rights being an economic issue. but it is. a woman's ability to plan her future, her education, her life.

today and in the last few days donald trump keeps talking about it and how in overturning roe v. wade he helped women. he protected women. he says they're miserable today. they're poorer today, they're more vulnerable today. he said he will be the protector of women if elected. can you respond to that? >> so donald trump is also the person who said women should be punished for exercising a decision that they rightly should be able to make about their own body and their future. so i think we would all agree that as a result of that prospective that he has about women, he also then chose three members of the united states supreme court who did as he intended, undid the protections of roe v. wade and now in state after state you see laws being passed that do punish women. laws that, i mean, most recently

a heart breaking story resulted in a young woman dying. a mother of a 6-year-old. heart wrenching stories. and that's for the listener, much less their family. so, look, i think the thing about donald trump is that, you know, i don't think the women of america need him to say he's going to protect them. the women of america need him to trust them. >> can we trust you? >> yes. yes. i'm not perfect. but i will tell you, i'm always going to put the needs of the people first. >> madame vice president, thank you for your time today. >> thank you. thank you. stephanie ruhle, nbc news business analyst, can i say that was a great interview. and i thought you pressed her on really important stuff. it was also -- i just thought it was the whole thing was

refreshingly substantive. you can say i don't like that policy or i do like that policy. but it really was about here, the earth we live in, the kinds of decisions you're going to make and it wasn't pie in the sky stuff. very well done job. let me just start by saying that. >> okay. well i'm just going to sit here and soak in those compliments. so we don't have to talk about anything else, but i think what you're actually complimenting is that it was a normal interview. chris, that's actually what it was. it was a normal interview. it was a person running to be the president of the united states. and for 25 minutes we talked about their vision and we talked about policy. and i think you just said it right there. at the end of the day, it's a-okay if you don't like her policies. right? she made it very clear if you make over 400 grand a year, next year when the individual tax cuts expire, she's going to raise your taxes. so if you are someone who just

votes on that, well then you know and you don't want to vote for her. it's just that we're so desensitized in that so many interviews that we do, we're forced to cover so much lunacy or so much crazy or so much fact-checking or get distracted by so much issues that policies that serve the american people, what you saw was a classic interview with somebody running for president. >> i thought the point that there's a number of really interesting exchanges. i thought the exchanges on tariffs was interesting, particularly when you said, look, which is true, i think people think we live in this free trade era, which we do compared to previous. but there's also lots of tariffs on lots of stuff presidents have unbelievely unilateral authority to apply them. i remember george w. bush doing this on aluminum and steel and trump did it. joe biden, as you noted, basically said, look, where are you? and i thought her answering was interesting. basically, well, it kind of depends. but we're not going to throw up 20% tariff around the whole

country which is not a serious idea. >> but i think that's the important part, sort of the nuance. i'm going to be honest, president biden has tariffs in place. he's held a lot of donald trump's tariffs in place. and the white house doesn't like to talk about it. they don't like it when you ask them about it because everybody has gotten in this zone of like trump's the tariff guy. we're not the tariff people. we hear on the other side. what she did right there was kind of explain that it's complicated, right? we're a country of 330 million people. our economy is complicated. right? in the same way as the economy good or bad? it totally depends. so tariffs, if used in the right places, can work. and one could watch that and say she didn't give a clear, direct answer. that's okay. because we're not talking about clear or direct issues. >> the question about inflation and prices. this to me is one of the -- it's sort of one of the most frustrating aspects of this campaign. the thing that people are 100% correctly rationally and

understandably reacting to, is two or three years of the highest rate of inflation we had in a generation. which was -- has been incredibly unpleasant. it spiked the prices of things. things got more expensive. the issue, of course, is that that period was basically born of the end of the pandemic and the supply crunch and a combination of that and monetary policy has brought it down. so now you have this weird situation where both major party candidates kind of got to say what they're going to do to bring prices down. even though what everyone is reacting to is an issue that is not -- that is a little bit in the past. you see what i'm saying? so she has the price gouging thing, i thought was a good answer. but in some answers no one is really talking about the real thing. >> it is a little bit in the past. and listen, everybody -- lots of people are angry that grocery stores have made so much money and they shouldn't. i'm not defending grocery stores. we should remember, we need to put price controls on things. there are tons of businesses

that are not high margin businesses and there are lots of years when those industries are not making a ton of money. but what i find interesting when she talks about looking into price gouging, people freak out and they're like, look, she's a socialist. i knew she was going to be a socialist. this woman is not a capitalist and bug out over it. donald trump this week was like, when i became president, look at the interest rates you're paying on credit cards. i'm going to cap that. there's no way they can do that. like he's going full on -- >> unilateral announcement of a 10% cap on credit card interest rates. >> correct. you know, when i call like ride or die capitalists about this, oh, it's nonsense. he's just talking talk. but when she says anything that even sniffs like it, see. she's a socialist nut ball. so, it's completely crazy, but you've got candidates that are trying to address an issue that has the american people angry and the american people aren't addressing -- aren't thinking about what you just mentioned, which is remember where we came

from. a pandemic. >> right. finally, let me just ask you this, i'm editorializing here, but i feel like the times that i've seen the vice president on her feet, which would be since she became the nominee, which would be the interview she did at cnn, some of the local interviews she's done, things she's done with oprah, the debate, the interview with you, she's obviously quite deft, adept, quite fluid. it does seem to me like it would benefit them -- and benefit the public just at a deep substantive level to talk more about this stuff. i feel like i learned something. >> okay. i think that 100%. because what's crazy is that donald trump gets so much credit and has for the last nine years of the fact that, you know, people have access to him and he says what he thinks and he just lets it rip. but much of what he says either doesn't make sense or it's not true. she actually was perfectly

reasonable. listen, there are some things she's not giving you direct answer on because she's a politician. but i agree with you that getting a chance to speak to her, the american people to hear from her more. what do you do with the the fact if you're her campaign people hear over and over, i don't know what her policies are. we have this book that are 82 pages. there are people who watched tonight, oh, taxes only increase if you make over 400 grand. all sorts of people like, well, my tax cut is going to run out. maybe my taxes are going to go up next year. they're not really reading the 82-page plan. and so i think the more -- she doesn't necessarily have to do this, the more she sits down, i mean, she's a great interview. i sat down for 25 minutes. you might not have liked all her answers but she had one for every single question. >> well, that was great. i learned a lot. excellent job, my friend. stephanie ruhle, thank you. >> thank you. still ahead, how voters are feeling about the economy, the take aways they'll have from

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donald trump has a history of taking care of very rich people. and then not really paying much attention to middle class families. >> reaction for vice president harris' interview is michael steele, co-host of "the weekend," michelle goldberg, tim o'brien. michael, let me start with you. you're remote. what did you think of the interview? >> i thought it was very good. i mean, hook, you know, you just have this moment where you have a presidential candidate sitting down and saying, here is what i think about what's happening in the country. here is what i'm offering to the american people. and i just thought it was solid. she -- i love the part in the speech that she related to and sort of drove in the conversation with stephanie. you know, this combo meal of i'm a capitalist who supports unions

and workers. and that's a space we have not been in in a very, very long time. where that bridge is connected. where oftentimes we try to pit one side against the other. she really is trying to figure out a way to create this opportunity economy around some fundamentals that translate across platforms in a way that people don't get stuck on them. you know what i'm saying? so you don't get stuck on stupid. and you retreat to, well, you know, i'm a conservative. i'm a liberal. i'm a progressive. i'm a republican or democrat. she sort of said, how does this benefit my economy, my personal economy? so i think she came up strong on that. >> one of my big take aways, tim, is that the revolution, the revival of industrial, policy, defense department where we do all our industrial policy and

spends hundreds of billions of dollars every year, sort of revival of industrial policy both as rhetoric, right, we need redundancy in supply chain, something she talked about with steel. we need to bring manufacturing back and we're going to use policy levers to it, that there is continuity there, right? that part of the biden agenda, huge part of it, is also part of the harris agenda. >> and tied into what happened in the pandemic where we realized all of the outsources we spent years doing put us at risk at the high end of chips and very basic manufacturing level. when she's delivering these messages now, i think she keeps getting better when she talks about policy of also adding a little dallop of a tweak that will get under trump's skin. she not only said today that donald trump talked tough against the chinese. but actually didn't deliver on anything that mattered in terms of winning that war. when she referred to manufacturing, she said we lost 200,000 manufacturing jobs,

donald trump was the biggest loser when it came to manufacturing, getting the biggest tweak in during the interview with stephanie, it is very small she's not missing these things. but she's also defining herself as a pragmatist. i don't want to be illogical about thesebe things. i want to find solutions that help working americans retain jobs,et make more money, and yo know, improve their lives, embrace opportunity and it grows the middle class. >> you know, there's this sort of term in political discourse, in polling of generic and always does better than the individual candidate, because you can sort of project whatever you want and then when you have an actual person, then it is harder. that said, part of what i think the success of the harris

campaign has been is running like a generic democrat and i mean that in a good way. this is kind of meat and potatoes, like centerleft, democratic policy. >> one thing that has driven me so crazy is when people say what does she stand for, what is she going to do? i think it has been fairly obvious that she will do her best to enact, as you said, a centerleft democratic policy agenda.

i mean donald trump has dropped his entire kind of, you know, pitchfork stick about the elite trying to screw you. i think the democratic party because they are so worried about being targeted as radicals or socialist have also backed off a lot of the things that they learned from bernie sanders. >> it is interesting, the sort of populist temperature is pretty low in her tone. the only place you really saw it, michael, was on the price gouging, which i think is good politics. she said if you are taking advantage of people i will go after you and i'm not going to make apologies. she set about paying the fair share, but she is not striking a populist tone, i think is a fair assessment of the rhetorical mode she is working and when talking about this stuff.

>> not an absolute populist tone, but i think there is a modicum of populism in it when she talks about the american worker. when she talks about families, you know, having to, you know, they don't want their life to be disrupted. so we are going to create an economy in which you can do two things at once that continue to work, fix the car, pay the bills. and so that is a form of populism that is not at the extremes, but touches on what she was referring to. something that is that centerleft space where you can shape it and this is what reagan did and what others have done on the republican side before they went into crazy land with trump. you sort of find that thing that appeals across the

spectrum and you make the case as close to that central point that touches someone in suburbia as well as cities and suburbs. >> one place you see that and where i think there really is an ideological marker, different from what i have seen for biden or any democratic nominee i have covered in my career, is housing. i have never seen housing is central to a domestic policy agenda in any campaign as in this one and you can tell when kamala harris talks about it, this is a serious commitment. they really think we need to bring housing costs down. it really reflects this idea of home ownership, new supply, all of that. >> when we talk about the mystery of why inflation has such traction as a sort of red herring, when with job growth there has been wage growth, gdp growth.

the real issue is affordability across a range. housing being front and center and housing being part of the american dream. people's idea of being able to put down a financial stake in the ground and build wealth for the family and they can't get there and she is a california politician. >> i do think this is a space where on the substance, on the politics, all of it is in the sweetest spot for a democratic politician. >> absolutely although it is interesting because i don't think donald trump gets enough, i don't think people draw the implications enough of donald trump saying we are not going to build apartments in your beautiful suburbs. donald trump kind of wants less housing construction and i don't think people -- i think there is more democrats can do to drop the implications of that for the housing crisis. >> there is a stark difference between these candidates. >> he has no policy.

deport migrants. >> and slap on a tariff, which is actual policy he is going to do. it doesn't matter that he doesn't understand, he's going to do it. michael steele, michelle goldberg, tim o'brien, thank you. we have another hour of this special edition of "all in" ahead. we will talk about trump's concepts of a plan for healthcare and much more, right after this. after this. th cabenuva, there's no pausing for daily hiv pills. for adults who are undetectable, cabenuva is the only complete, long-acting hiv treatment you can get every other month. it's two injections from a healthcare provider. just 6 times a year. don't receive cabenuva if you're allergic to its ingredients, or if you're taking certain medicines, which may interact with cabenuva. serious side effects include allergic reactions, post-injection reactions, liver problems, and depression. if you have a rash and other allergic reaction symptoms, stop cabenuva and get medical help right away. tell your doctor if you have liver or kidney problems, mental health concerns and if you are pregnant,

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about how he thinks about some of these issues. >> a msnbc exclusive interview with kamala harris. >> i am not perfect, but i will tell you i'm always going to put the needs of the people first. >> tonight the democratic nominee lays out her vision for america and prosecutes the economic case against her opponent. >> making trump one of the biggest losers ever on manufacturing. >> then the hhs secretary on trump's plan for your healthcare. >> you still do not have a plan. >> i have concepts of a plan. >> and as mark robinson's own campaign runs away from him -- >> i don't know if i like that comment. you should like it because you are outstanding and you will be the next governor. >> what happened when donald trump returned to north carolina. >> you have to cherish him. he is an outstanding person. i've got to know him so well

and fairly quickly. >> when "all in" starts right now. welcome back to the second hour of a special edition of "all in." tonight, kamala harris sat down with stephanie ruhle for that exclusive interview focused on her economic plan, where she laid out her vision for america. >> my vision for the economy, i call it an opportunity economy, is about making sure that all americans, wherever they start, wherever they are, have the ability to actually achieve those dreams and ambitions which include, for middle-class families, just being able to know that their hard work allows them to get ahead, right? i think we can tend we should not aspire to have an economy that just allows people to get by. people want to do more than get by, they want to get ahead. >> earlier today in pittsburgh harris explained the pillars of her economic plan which includes lowering cost for middle-class, investing in innovation and making america a global manufacturing leader.

she also emphasized the contrast between her economic vision and her opponents, or rather, his lack thereof. >> frankly and i say this in all sincerity, he is just not very serious about how he thinks about some of these issues and one must be serious and have a plan and a real plan that is not just about some talking points ending in an exclamation at a political rally, but actually putting thought in on what will be the return on investment and what will be the economic impact on everyday people. when you look at my plans you will see what those benefits will be. $25,000 down payment assistance for first-time homebuyers. you know what that means? you are creating the ability of that working person to build intergenerational wealth. doing the work of a $6000 child tax credit. doing the work of a $50,000 tax

deduction for first-time small businesses, startups. >> that is a real plan. >> it is a real plan and it is about being serious about it. i am serious about my enthusiasm and for small businesses and my belief in what they will do as part of america's economic engine. >> the republican nominee doesn't really have what you can reasonably call a plan. he has been doing his salesman pattern, saying whatever it takes to get them in the car. for example there is this comically desperate attempt to basically bribe constituencies with a new tax cut every other day. >> when i am back in the beautiful white house, we will pass larger tax cuts for workers and we have a special tax that is going to do quite well. it is called no tax on tips. i am also announcing that is part of our additional tax cuts, we will end all taxes on overtime.

you know what that means? think of that. and then for the seniors which will be fantastic, because they have been devastated by inflation. this will just about make up for it. we will have no tax on social security benefits. >> that is trillions of dollars, depending on how you count it up. the latest one is this pathetic pandering to affluent folks in high tax states, promising to reverse his own tax law, the signature piece of legislation of donald trump's in office that capped the federal deduction of state and local taxes and therefore raised the taxes of a lot of those people by thousands of dollars. now he will take it back even though he signed it the first time and perhaps his signature idea, saving industry and raising trillions of revenue by imposing massive tariffs. of course those costs largely get passed on to consumers which will essentially amount to an across-the-board sales tax. maybe $5 trillion. we don't really know the amount.

these kinds of promises with no chance of coming to fruition seemed familiar, though i think the tariffs probably will happen, that is because this has always been trump's style. after the 2016 election he showed up at an indianapolis carrier plant to declare he saved 800 jobs from going overseas. >> companies are not going to leave the united states anymore without consequences. it's not going to happen. it's not going to happen, i will tell you right now. we will have a lot of phone calls made to companies when they say they are thinking about leaving this country, because they are not leaving this country and the workers are going to keep their jobs. >> so what happened? he said that in 2016. well, as kamala harris recalled today, that was a lie. >> you will remember, carrier than off short hundreds of jobs to mexico under his watch and

it was not just they are. on trump's watch, off shoring went up and manufacturing jobs went down across our country. and across our economy. all told almost 200,000 manufacturing jobs were lost during his presidency, starting before the pandemic hit. making trump one of the biggest losers ever on manufacturing. >> obviously she is sticking the knife in there. that is an applause line, but again this is all on the record. it is not speculative. we've got the data. this happened in the past. it is not speculation about what will happen in the future. it tells us what really happened under donald trump's leadership. this graph shows the number of manufacturing jobs in america. that red portion represents the four years donald trump was in office. the steep decline in the pandemic did start to recover

by early 2021, but the vice president is correct. the country had a net loss of about 190,000 manufacturing jobs under donald trump. on the far right of your screen you will see the line turns blue and continues to shoot up, surpassing pre-covid levels, before settling just under 13 million. president biden and vice president harris have overseen that massive gain of more than 700,000 new manufacturing jobs. you can say well, whoever is president gets credited or blamed, but let's look at another metric where policy matters and this is where the difference is more stark and i would bet you not one and 1000 voters know this graph, but it is important. this is total spending on manufacturing construction, building new factories, building new facilities that will make more new goods in america. again, take a look at the red portion. under donald trump's presidency it was basically static and as it had been for lots of terms before.

now check out what the blue line does when it turns blue again. that is policy. that is the policy of the biden- harris administration like the inflation reduction act and the chips act. spending on manufacturing construction is booming. it has more than tripled since joe biden and kamala harris took office. you can see it happening on the ground. this is not fictitious. this shows the new battering manufacturing and supply chain investments just through last summer. over $100 billion amounting to over 75,000 new jobs. again, this is stuff being built now. this map shows new microchip manufacturing projects in the work, being built by companies from newark to idaho. none of this was happening under donald trump. this is all biden-harris policy. whatever you say about donald trump, whether you believe him or not, whatever, the facts are the facts.

he did not reignite american manufacturing. he did manage to start trade wars, but they mostly backfired. is one major piece of legislation, cut taxes for corporations and rich people. meanwhile the biden-harris administration accomplished what donald trump promised, but could not achieve. sarah longwell is the publisher of the bulwark, executive director of the republican accountability project. they both join me now. let me start with you because i just said i bet not one in 1000 voters could tell you about this chart, which i think is probably true and again, charts are charts. it is my job to look at charts, not voters job to look at the charts, no shade on them, but it does seem like the basic truth about the record and it really was true that there was a big policy push, manufacturing, inflation reduction act, that did not exist under donald trump. it is essentially unknown to

voters and particularly the kind of voters you talk to in your swing voter focus groups. >> that is true and honestly i do think it has a lot to do with the fact that joe biden was not a strong communicator for a lot of his term. he did not have the ability i think to go out and just sell, sell, sell this all day long. also i think that there was tension between joe biden declaring the economy back and calling it bidenomics at a time when people were still feeling really the pinch of inflation and so what i hear from voters all the time is about the cost of housing, custom eggs, cost of milk. the grocery bill and while i think that things have been slowly improving for people, i am not sure that it is accelerating in such a way where people say, boy, i just feel a massive difference in my day-to-day life. what i like about the way that kamala harris has been running her campaign and articulating

her strategy on the economy is that she is able -- c, joe biden i think was kind of defensive about his record, where he wanted to grab those charts and say wait a minute, look at all the things we did, why don't people understand this? that worked against him because what kamala harris is able to do is look forward. what you want is for people not to feel the acute pain they were feeling before and get them focused on what are we doing next? i think she is doing two things that are breaking through with people. number one, she talks about the middle class all the time and people are hearing it. they understand she is for the middle class and from the middle class. that is something i hear from voters and the other thing is she is leading into building. talking about building houses. talking about building buildings, which is what she was talking about in that speech today. doing it faster and more efficiently. cutting red tape. i think for the swing voters that is what they are looking

for. that feels common sense to them, so i like that she is going on offense on the economy because too often democrats give this ground to trump. i think they don't fight hard enough for it and i think she is going for it and that's good. >> that is a great point because it is totally true. i understand why the president felt that way, because it really did an incredible job of macroeconomic management amidst a bunch of challenges, but you are right. it is a losing battle. people don't care about your record or not. what they care about is what will happen next and to that end i do think that housing, building stuff and housing, is a very smart play in which substantively the policy is right. we need more supply and i think it feels tangible to people because you really do hear it in the polls and you see it, housing is one of the main pain points right now. >> and it is one of the main pain points, especially with

young voters. folks who have been renting apartments for years and years, seeing their rent go up. wanting to be able to afford a house and invest in a place rather than rent. it is not just people starting families. it is really younger voters who care about housing and again it is something that voters across the country feel deeply. when they hear someone say i'm from the middle class. i know what it is like not to be able to own a home. to rent, to have to work really hard to pay off a mortgage. really resonating with the average american who is not just struggling, but is looking at these choices and hearing one clear plan from the left and looking at someone like donald trump and hearing oh great, he will impose tariffs on some other country and that will magically cure my housing affordability issues. >> it is interesting you mention the tariffs. let me ask you this because the tariff thing is genuinely one of the most deranged proposals i've ever covered in politics. a 10% across-the-board tariff

would inaugurate probably the worst trade war in the world since the 1920s. after that trade war we had in the great depression, globally, those two were somewhat connected. that is a matter of debate. it would increase prices. it is truly crazy to watch him answer a question that says how do you bring down grocery prices and he is like we will tariff imported stuff from other countries farmers. that will do the opposite. but i do worry and i understand why like none of that scans to voters. the fact that she is talking about taxing people and harris is using the language now, but i wonder where that messaging is or is not working around the tariffs. >> the way he talks about tariffs is truly economically illiterate and it sort of reminds me of the, we are going to build the wall -- >> it is exactly that. exactly that. >> nobody thinks mexico is going to pay for that wall and

i'm not sure these voters clock whether or not the tariffs -- it is more of a posture, more than an economic plan. what drives me crazy about it actually is the fact that there is not more pushback from republicans. they are against tariffs. they are for free markets. it blows my mind. >> all trump policy exists constantly and as obvious bs and a genuinely alarming promise. that's the problem with analyzing all of this. i think the tariff stuff is in the genuinely alarming category. thank you both. appreciate it. it is one of the most consequential policy issues of this authority campaign and donald trump has a concept of a plan for healthcare. hhs secretary xavier becerra on the high-stakes, next. and look forward to a more confident future. voya, well planned, well invested, well protected.

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pretty much instantly. >> i have concepts of a plan. i'm not president right now. >> just yes or no, you still do not have a plan? >> i have concepts of a plan. i'm not president right now. >> yes or no you still do not have a plan? >> i have concepts of a plan. i'm not president right now. >> the affordable health care has gotten coverage for 50 million americans. you can be forgiven for thinking they've given up repealing it. they haven't. they hope to take away a key feature that makes it work. j.d. vance explain how last week. >> we are actually going to implement some regulatory reform in the healthcare system that allows people to choose a plan that works for them. what that will also do is allow people with similar health situations to be in the same risk pools, so that makes our healthcare system work better. it makes it work better for people with chronic issues and makes it work better for everybody else. >> it doesn't make it work

better for people with chronic issues. in fact if you stick people in different risk pools based on pre-existing issues, that sounds familiar, right? it is part of the house attempt to repeal and replace the aca in 2017. i remember because i covered it night in and night out. the congressional budget office said it would create a situation in which premiums would be so high in some areas that the plans would have no enrollment. the whole point of health insurance is that premiums -- p going to skyrocket and the thing about human life is that all of us will go from one category to the other, which is why you want one risk pool. trump and vance's concept is to go back to the same bad idea

americans have rejected over and over again for the last 10 years. xavier becerra has served as secretary of health and human services in the biden administration since 2021 and joins me now. it's good to have you here. let's talk about the structure of the aca. as the man probably more than any other individual in the government who oversees the implementation of the affordable care act. what would happen if you changed it structurally so that you started segregating out different risk pools? >> what would happen is we would see what we saw before 1965 when president johnson enacted medicare. old people had a hard time finding insurance. why? because as you said if you are old you get sicker, faster, more often and you cost an insurance company more. insurers did not want to ensure older americans. it took medicare, where the federal government came back and financed and backed up the system to get 65 and older

healthcare coverage. >> right, because why do you want to take premiums from a 69- year-old? you don't. you want to 29-year-old. >> is you said you want the healthiest, youngest, wealthiest people to be on your plans. >> and in fact the old system kind of worked through this sort of cherry picking. you have medicare so people 65 and older are in that pool, but i remember looking at some of the aca repeal plans estimating premiums for someone who is 63 and maybe had health issues. you are looking at $20,000 a year. there is no way to make the math work, is there? >> what happens is people will pool to where they can paley stand if you are 26 years of age you are not going to go in with someone who is 56 years of age. what happens is those 50-year- olds will be stuck in plans that are very expensive because nobody wants to be pooled with them and the aca made sure we prevented that. that is why we have the

protection against pre-existing conditions. you cannot watch an insurance company say i will not insure you because you have an existing condition which would cost a lot of money. you cannot discriminate that way anymore. >> to be clear i don't know the answer to the question. what vance or others are proposing, could you do that administratively from hhs or you would have to pass something, right? >> we could not do it that way. >> the law requires dysregulation of insurance companies, right? >> and the law doesn't allow you to pool the way i think they are speaking about because it would be discriminatory. >> so they would have to change the law. you can do it from the executive position. >> correct. i want to ask about a public health crisis in this country that has gotten not that much attention. it is overdose deaths. it is almost impossible to articulate the insanity of the

growth of overdose deaths. i think in 1982 it was like 1000 overdose deaths total in the country. last year was 100,000. that said, we have new data on overdose deaths. they are now at the lowest level in three years. there has been progress of overdose deaths. what do you attribute that progress to? >> remember that many of the americans dying today are dying without expecting to die. these are not folks that are so addicted that eventually they were going to overdose. these are americans that are taking a particular drug and don't realize it is laced with something like fentanyl. the fentanyl ends up killing them. that is why you see such high overdose rates. we are beginning to see a drop because in this administration we decided to tackle overdose

in three important ways and added one new one. policy, prevention, treatment, and then follow-up care. we added a fourth component, harm reduction. if you are about to take a drug because you are addicted and if you can check to find out if it is laced with fentanyl, it might stop you from taking that drug. i realize this drug is laced with fentanyl. fentanyl strips are out there today in many programs. the federal government would prohibit programs from getting federal dollars. we have said the evidence proves you can save a life by giving someone a fentanyl strips so they can find out if fentanyl is laced in their drug. >> this harm reduction, i have covered multiple iterations. i remember people demagogy on needle exchanges during hiv. fentanyl strips seem like a sensible thing, but has this been a controversial program or not? >> on the ground, no, because it is saving lives. on the federal level because we

get into this politic of drugs and so forth, yes. it is proving itself a winner. we have also made naloxone more available so that if you od, somebody finds you, you can provide them with a drug that will help reduce the overdose. >> being a drug that can interrupt and stop overdose, but has to be given within a few minutes. >> now that is available over- the-counter. it wasn't before, but this administration made it available to save lives. >> secretary of health and human services xavier becerra, thank you for coming by. enjoy new york. >> thank you. still ahead, a policy agenda that is responsive to the hopes and dreams of voters or you can relentlessly play the race card. next. d. next. go ahead, live unfiltered with the one and only sotyktu, a once-daily pill for moderate to severe plaque psoriasis, and the chance at clear or almost clear skin. it's like the feeling of finding you're so ready

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he suggested that you happened to turn black recently for political purposes. questioning a core part of your identity. >> yeah. same old tired playbook. next question, please. >> that's it? >> that's it. >> vice president kamala harris's response sums up how her campaign has treated trump's constant race baiting. inserting racist comments into the campaign has been one of the central playbooks, when they are most dependent on.

so they are doing it, playing that card if you will at every opportunity, like the lies donald trump repeated about migrants at an event in north carolina today. >> from the congo and africa. they are coming a lot from the congo. from jails in the congo. they opened their jails. south america, venezuela, all of the countries. they are letting them out of the jails and prisons. the men stole -- mental institution population. from all over the world. they come from the middle east, they come from asia, they come from parts of europe. they come into our country. many of them are major, major criminals and murderers. >> the atlantic writes about the trump campaign. the theory is that by supercharging race, they can compensate for the unpopularity of the trump campaign actual agenda.

adam serwer is a staff writer for the atlantic and he joins me now. i really liked your piece. what is the basic argument? >> the basic argument is that trump hopes to polarize the electorate along racial lines by continuously injecting race into the campaign, by repeating these lurid, often false stories, particularly about immigrants. black immigrants, nonwhite immigrants. creating crime and maybe moving next door to you in the hopes that it will scare white people enough to support him in large enough numbers across swing states where the electorate may be more conservative than the nation as a whole and you know, carry him to victory. it is as you put it in your graphic, it is an incessant, daily playing of what conservatives use to call the race card and now they are

perfectly okay with because they think it works for them. >> the sort of conservative line on this i think almost always deployed in bad faith, was that, you know, liberal politicians or politicians of color referring to race or saying someone insulted them in a way that had an obvious racial subtext was an attempt to like manipulate the emotions of the electorate by relying on the race as a sort of handicap, as a kind of and that is basically, that is what trump is doing here, the real version of it. >> yeah, look, the choice of emphasizing congolese immigrants in north carolina was deliberate. there is a small population of refugees in north carolina. this is just old-timey, 19th century race baiting. that's all it is. all he is saying is black

people are scary and they might move next to you. he thinks that it will work and i'm not sure it will work. i'm not saying that it will work, but it is certainly the case that the trump campaign wants race to be at the center of the campaign and if they have to lie to do it, whether it is about immigrants in north carolina or in ohio, they will keep lying. they think that will sort of manipulate white americans, sort of primal into supporting them. that's not true, but it is certainly what they think they are doing. >> you said trump needs to turn harris into a threatening figure. harris needs to diffuse those appeals with all the caution of a bomb squad trying to disarm an explosive. that line stuck with me because as we demonstrated in that clip and you have seen time and time again, much more than any campaign i've seen recently and more than barack obama who sort of talked about race a lot in this soaring, pluralistic way, but he did center at and take it

head-on. harris really seems intent on basically talking about anything but that. >> yeah, the trump campaign has been baiting harris since she first became the nominee, calling her a dei hire, saying she is unqualified even though she has more elected office experience than either of the white men on the republican ticket. obama approached race as almost a culmination of america's journey from the civil rights movement and harris is not doing that at all. she is not even doing what hillary clinton did in terms of breaking the glass ceiling. she is not talking about it in an identity sense. she has talked about abortion and discrimination, but she is not making herself the main character in the story of america's redemption against bigotry and she is doing it on purpose because she understands

or at least i think she understands that the trump campaign wants this topic to be center stage, because they feel like it helps them with white voters who may feel threatened by the rise of the second black president, by the election of the second black president. >> that's a great line, not making herself the main character in the story of america's redemption. the whole thing that i am here to serve the people. the way she has navigated all of this, and to be clear she should not have to navigate these incredibly sexist and racist explanations of her of like not being too ambitious or whatever stereotypes they are, but it has been done very deftly. the bomb squad diffusing really stuck with me. you can kind of see they are doing it. >> whenever she asks about the things trump said about her, she pivots and said this is bad for the american people and

donald trump is dividing us. she pivots to an answer that makes it seem like what she is saying about her is not a big deal. she is not taking it personally. the reason why it is bad is it is affecting the country in a negative way. she is avoiding what conservatives want, which is to say she is making herself the victim. >> adam serwer, great piece in the atlantic. i recommend people check it out. thank you very much. coming up, why isn't donald trump talking about his old buddy mark robinson? does he still cherish the disgraced candidate like you used to? we will tell you what happened when trump visited north carolina today. carolina today. ctive shield because it actively shields the enamel to defend against erosion and cavities. i think that this product is a gamechanger for my patients. try pronamel mouthwash. i told myself i was ok with my moderate to severe rheumatoid arthritis symptoms. with my psoriatic arthritis symptoms. but just ok isn't ok.

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when you're planning for it all... the answer is j.p. morgan wealth management. so there is interesting pulling lately that shows while governor tim walz is viewed favorably, j.d. vance is really unpopular among the voting public. a recent survey found walz has a minus one favorability. a cnn survey found a bigger gap between the vp picks. vance at minus 12. i think part of the problem for j.d. vance is he appeared to talk to every reactionary with a microphone or a podcast where he says or agrees with some really weird stuff. stuff like the purpose of the postmenopausal female.

but there is a bit of a strategy to it, i do think. like with the rfk jr. endorsement, the trump-vance campaign appears to be trying to assemble a political coalition of oddballs. people with weird views, conspiracy theorists. this week on my podcast, why is this happening, i talked to the great semafor political reporter who has been chronicling republicans are trying to jam normals and with the conspiracy nuts. >> no matter how many things donald trump talks about that sound weird to you, either the media is misrepresenting them or they don't matter. the media is focusing on that because they want you to be divided and they don't want you to notice the good things he did. this is boiled down in the bumper sticker phrase that says i will take a mean tweet and two dollars gas. it is drilled in people's minds that if he rambles about

something it is in the service of being an effective president. >> you can scan the qr code on your screen to listen now or just search chris hayes wherever you get your podcasts. but now i have rinvoq. a once-daily pill that reduces the itch and helps clear the rash of eczema —fast. some taking rinvoq felt significant itch relief as early as 2 days— and some achieved dramatic skin clearance as early as 2 weeks. many saw clear or almost-clear skin. plus, many had clearer skin and less itch, even at 3 years. the lyrics there where she's trying to determine if this song is real or ai and he said he did it in two minutes. >> i prefer that one much more than the other one. miah, thanks so much for showing us that. let's bring in angela selengela. every day it seems you're trying to explain the legality of this and illegality. angela, if we could, this case is kind of disturbing when you

kind of look at some of those lyrics. let's just put aside this case but for argument sake, let's say someone makes a fake of something they know is false. it will harm the person's reputation. it gets released far and wide. and is that a window when it concerns deep fakes. >> it's not obviously illegal because there is no law. there's things like right to publicity law and those differ by states. those are privacy laws and those protect each of our lives and justin beiber as well. but in a case like this where it's not being used obviously for commercial purposes it's unclear because then on the other side is it art. listening to that song that was just made there. sit music, is it free expression. all of those are so deeply protected by our supreme court. by our constitution that it's

not obvious here that it's defamation. we may need case law or legislators our congress, state legislators making that clear. there are laws with regard to pornography. with regard to election interference in deep fakes but not really in music like this. >> and the bar set even higher because he's a public figure. okay so let's see, what if we saw case law clearly established that lumped all this in with defamation or liable. what would be the ramifications there on the civil side. not necessarily criminal side. >> yeah, if it is case law. if it comes down ai generated images and deep fakes do clearly qualify as defamation and liable you can see whoever it is that is generating or that is forwarded or that is sharing, distributing these images at all. you can pretty easily get a form of injunction. get the platform to take that down to just stop the the

defendant there to raise it and to then prove this is art, this is expression. this is first amendment. this is not, but in a case like this also when there's no commercial benefit often you sue to get money and to take money from what someone else is making. so it's muddy here. >> yeah, a lot of hypotheticals there. thanks for baring with us. but those hypotheticals are very, very important. angela sandela, thank you. and we're going to a school, not only ai they're putting technology ahead of the class. instead of teachers they're using ai. it's all coming up in the future of education. >> we're coming for your job.

in tonight's future of everything, will ai become the teachers of our students. of our kids. s that the question at the

heart of our story tonight. but first, let's see what happens real quick if we asked ai how it sees itself being used in the future of education. and of the four major chat pwots bots we asked were accessible, full of ai but notice there what is missing from that word cloud. the word teacher. that leads us to an experiment happening in texas where academic teaching is left specifically to artificial intelligence. what happened when they removed the human teacher? we traveled to the lone star state to find out. >> reporter: in austin texas, at alpha school, every day is an experiment. >> when you look around what's missing is the traditional desk. this is their classroom. >> yeah, this is more we work

space. >> reporter: where all the curriculum is left up to technology. >> six times as many as three equals. 18, great work. >> what are you working on here? >> core skills. >> core skills, huh. >> ai is able to help you learn whatever you need to learn. >> who's teaching? >> i think the app is teaching me but i'm also teaching myself. >> here's the thing about an ai tutor. it doesn't care if a student is black, white or brown. it doesn't care if a student is rich or poor. it doesn't care if a student is in the eighth percentile or tenth percentile. it's infinitely patient. >> reporter: different ai programs guide students through math, reading, language and science. >> this dashboard allows us to see what they completed and shows us okay are they hitting

their goals. are they not. >> reporter: all tracked by the schools, the parents and the students. >> i'm in eighth grade science and then ninth grade language. tenth grade reading and seventh grade math. >> reporter: but here, cofounder mackenzie price says the grown ups in the classroom are not called teachers because they're not teaching the curriculum >> the decision must be unanimous. decide for yourself. >> reporter: more like mentors/tech support. >> it's okay that our guides aren't experts in physics or math. >> it almost sounds like the guides here are told, you're not here to teach, you're here to lead the kids to ai. >> our guides are not allowed to teach. the adults that work in the classroom their sole job is to provide motivational support. >> reporter: they say condensing all core subjects

into two ai powered days, frees up the day for anything and everything else. >> let there be drones up. >> you got this. >> we're making beef fajita tacos. >> what is this? >> this is called our check chart. we have academic topics but we also have life skills. >> i mean, yeah you've got, life skills. independently put together a piece of ikea furniture. then solve a rubix cube. juggle for 10 seconds. and then run a mile without stopping. >> absolutely. >> so the air b & b in the workshop. >> wait, hold on. let me rewind you. >> air b & b like the real world. >> yeah, we were running an air b & b. >> reporter: they're getting workshops and according to academics according to alpha have not suffered at all. here it takes 80 days to advance grade and their test

scores are in the 90th percentile. >> you have to score 90s to pass here. >> absolutely. >> a's to pass. ai to learn but no home work for kids and no lesson planning for educators. >> i would argue gadi there's no other school getting the education they're getting here in two hours a day. the life skill that we are teaching is this ability to learn to learn. >> reporter: when a lot of people see the headlines, they're thinking they're taking the teachers out and putting the ai in. how do you see it? >> i see it like helpful support. it'slike being a teacher but with all of the support you would want. >> reporter: most schools are not convinced. only a tiny fraction see ai as a game changer. a quarter of those teachers surveys say using ai does more

harm than good. tuition at alpha starts at $10,000 and goes up to $40,000 for the highest paid working families. >> ai learning can be introduced in school. i think that ai will go down in price that it will be affordable for anyone. >> reporter: they're planning to release a program soon but for now their focus is getting their students ready for anything. >> i think this is the future of education. >> reporter: that was just kindergarten through eight grade. wait until we visit alpha high school in austin. that's going to do it for us tonight, i'm gaudi schwartz, stay tuned for now.