doj leadership from creating lists of agents who worked on the january 6th investigation and the trump classified documents case lists that could then be used for a mass purge of the agency. the plaintiffs say this quote upon returning to the presidency, mr. trump has ordered the doj to conduct a review and purge of fbi personnel involved in these investigations and prosecutions. this directive is unlawful and retaliatory. plaintiffs assert that the very act of compiling lists of persons who worked on matters that upset donald trump is retaliatory in nature,

intended to intimidate fbi agents and other personnel, and to discourage them from reporting any further malfeasance by donald trump and his agents. the plaintiffs warn that any compiled list could then become a tool for trump and his allies. more from the lawsuit. quote. plaintiffs assert that the purpose for this list is to identify agents to be terminated, or to suffer other adverse employment action. plaintiffs reasonably fear that all or parts of this list might be published by allies of president trump, thus placing themselves and their families in immediate danger of retribution by the now pardoned and at large january 6th. convicted felons. attached to their suit is the questionnaire that was sent out to bureau staffers, consisting largely of yes or no questions regarding their involvement in the january 6th cases, with one question asking for specifics on what each agent did in the largest investigation in doj history. launched in response to

what the director of the fbi at the time called an act of domestic terrorism bureau staffers getting support from a number of groups representing current and former fbi agents. a second lawsuit against the justice department from the fbi agents association is asking a federal judge to protect agents from retaliation and, quote, vigilante action by those they were investigating, pointing to an incredibly tense threat environment for the agents in the wake of trump's mass pardons of the january 6th defendants. they say this, quote, as of the date of this affidavit, multiple hashtags are trending on x that allow january 6th convicts turned pardons to link to each other in posts promoting violence and insurrection against law enforcement agents. they also cite the leader of the proud boys, enrique tarrio, singling out an fbi agent for retaliation. their suit includes this dire warning quote in addition to being unlawful, a

mass unlawful firing of 6000 fbi employees would be catastrophic to national security. fbi agents trying to draw a line in the sand against a possible purge that would put them in danger is where we start today. here, for his first ever television interview, michael clarke. he's president of the society of former special agents of the fbi, one of the groups pleading with congress to take action. also back with us, former assistant director for counterintelligence at the fbi. msnbc senior national security analyst frank figliuzzi. and with me at the table once again, former top official at the department of justice. msnbc legal analyst andrew weissmann. i appreciate all of you being here. i imagine this isn't the most comfortable time to be speaking out, but it is perhaps the most important time. so let me start with that. thanks. michael clarke, just just tell me what's happening right now inside the fbi. >> well, it's i'm sure.

>> there's a lot of agents who. >> are, you. >> know, fearful of their jobs. >> you know, it's. a being an fbi. >> agent can. be a dangerous job, and it's dangerous times. and now. >> the. >> agents are focused not only. >> on doing their work, but. >> they're also. >> concerned about their families and, you. >> know, and just. >> whether their names. >> and. addresses will be exposed by this list. >> tell me what is available as a recourse. what can congress do to protect the bureau? >> well, hopefully. >> you know, injunction. >> i know. >> the agents association and we're supporting that, you know, has filed a suit so that these names. >> won't be released. there's another. suit as well. >> out. >> there filed. >> by a number. >> of agents looking for the same type of relief. i'm not sure what congress can do. i'll leave that to, you know, some of

the congressional delegates or individuals that. you know, that you'll have. on at some point, i'm sure, but there's. >> tremendous concern by the agents. i can. >> assure you of that. >> let me show you something that former deputy director of the bureau, andrew mccabe, said over on cnn about just the creation of these lists. >> thousands of. agents who did nothing other. than respond to the orders of their supervisors and of people at headquarters who likely sent. >> them. >> leads to. >> the field offices where they. >> work to. >> conduct some investigative activity and maybe even execute a. lawful search warrant or arrest warrant signed by a federal judge. so the idea that these people are essentially being virtually rounded up now submitted. being demanded to fill out what i'm told is a 12 question survey. >> which is mostly. >> yes or no answers to identify themselves as people. >> who. >> are who may be targeted.

>> for some sort of. >> retribution or punishment. it's absolutely disgraceful. >> these are people who are. >> civil servants. they enjoy the protections. >> of the civil service program. >> the fbi has an extensive process of if there are allegations of misconduct against specific. >> employees, those things. >> are investigated. >> they are given due. >> process. and ultimately, the office of professional responsibility administers an adjudication. nowhere in my entire 21 year history in the fbi did i ever see anything like this, where employees are literally being rounded up for political reasons, for cases they did. >> their lawful. >> and expected work on? >> it's absolutely ridiculous. >> i mean, to andy mccabe's point about how fbi agents end up working on cases the opposite of what they did, the kinds of answers that would get them in trouble with the trump team would have been unlawful. can you just explain how sort of the

chain of command works inside the bureau, once the director declares an event, a crime that takes place on tv, an act of domestic terrorism? >> well. >> almost in any. >> case, where the. >> agents are, you know. get involved. >> in an investigation, there's a predicate. >> offense. a case is opened in conjunction with the united states attorney's office, and then the agents will use all the different tools at their behest to. >> follow up. >> and, you know, agents are not. free to refuse assignments. >> so if, for. >> example. >> if an arrest. >> warrant or a. >> search warrant is. >> sent and. >> it could be anywhere in. >> the country. you know. >> and it. >> let's say it's sent to kansas city. >> you know, that. warrant commands you to act. >> it doesn't ask you. it doesn't it doesn't allow you to say. >> geez, i really. >> don't want to. >> you. >> know, you. >> know, execute this warrant. and so. many agents all over the country receive leads. >> interviews, surveillance. >> requests, and they're all, you know, lawful. and they

followed up on those. and. >> you know, because of. >> that, you. >> know, they're suffering. >> the consequences right now. and as. >> andy mccabe. >> had mentioned. the survey. >> is unprecedented. >> i've never heard of anything like that in. >> my 22 years. >> if you take the distribution of the survey and the firings of the entire top level leadership of the fbi, what is the fbi's capacity right now? would you guess it's operating at 70% 80? how would you assess its ability to do its primary function right now? >> that would be hard to assess, but i can. >> i can guarantee. >> you agents. are distracted. >> if you're worried about. >> your family. >> if you're worried about, are you. >> going to be. >> fired? >> last night, agents. i'm sure, were on pins and needles. as you know, many were out working. but they're also concerned. tomorrow. am i going to have a job? so, you know, under any organization, if you you.

>> just can't. >> afford to be distracted in your work. because it's a. >> dangerous occupation. >> for people that don't know, you just sort of give folks an overview of the kinds of divisions that the fbi oversees counterterror counter-trafficking i mean, just take us through the kinds of crimes the fbi protects everyday citizens and every state from. >> well, sure, there's. >> you know. >> obviously, the criminal investigation division. and then frank had talked. >> to this, this question better than i could. and. >> you know, there's terrorism. >> there's certain foreign. >> counterintelligence as well. >> so, you. >> know, the fbi has, you know, very broad. >> avenues of investigation. >> and obviously intelligence. >> tell me what happens if these efforts fail. i mean, i want to read a little bit of a section from the lawsuit that's a little ominous, but i just want to help our viewers understand what

you're talking about, what the agents are going through. the lawsuit says this. the plaintiffs have been informed that some of their personal information has already been posted. by january 6th. convicted felons on dark web sites, the dark web, and are particularly concerned about further publication of their personal information. this is in a post january 6th political environment after the january 6th, insurrectionists that they investigated attacked law enforcement after the husband of nancy pelosi was attacked with a hammer after acts of political violence seemed to become acceptable in one of the two political parties. i wonder how what the conversations are about, how how to protect these agents and their families from the information that's already available on the dark web. very true. and. you know, most agents, the. >> fbi agents. >> are highly trained. they can take care of themselves. >> and god forbid.

>> one were. >> were to be attacked. you know, they certainly. >> could defend themselves. however. >> they have families. they have kids. >> they. >> have. >> you know, you know, they're worried about their their. >> home life. and so that's the biggest concern that most. >> agents would have. >> is. >> are their. >> families safe? >> are their. >> homes safe. >> and. you know, obviously. >> it's. >> it's a. >> little bit scary. >> as well for them that their names would be out there and possibly their. >> addresses. >> andrew weissman, your thoughts today? >> i want to make sure people understand how serious this is for the bureau. normally, frank figliuzzi, when he was at the bureau, is worried about the bad guys outside, the people committing child predators, bank robberies, fraud, fraud on the

elderly, terrorism. we've talked about all of the panoply of wrongdoing that is outside the theory of these two cases that have been filed is the crime is happening inside the house, and it is coming not just from the president who is a convicted felon, but it's coming from the leadership of the justice department. and so the illegal activity that is the reason for the lists, the reason for thinking about termination, the possibility of these lists becoming public is because of people not just doing their job, and not just they didn't have a choice. what they were doing was they were trying to hold accountable what we all saw with our eyes on january 6th. this is it would have been a dereliction of duty not to take action. i mean, this isn't just, oh, you know, they prosecuted some unusual case. and is there some

concern about that case? these were people who assaulted police officers. they attacked the capitol. judges have held judges appointed by every possible republican. democratic, trump appointed judges have held these people to account, saying these are righteous prosecutions. and now these agents are being singled out for doing their job for us. and this is what happens. just to put a fine point on it, when the president of the united states is a convicted felon and is sitting there saying, i am now like the inmates are running the asylum. and that is that is what we are seeing, the remarkable nature that you have, the fbi suing the leadership of the department of justice on a claim that they are acting illegally. >> i mean, frank. >> figliuzzi, there was a lot of well, your thoughts first, frank, there's a lot here in these lawsuits. tell me what your thoughts are this hour.

>> yeah. >> yeah. >> a couple of things. and i'm eager to hear andrew weigh. >> in on the strategy here, but i see i see a strategy with these two lawsuits. >> first, attacking not the dismissals or future. >> dismissals, but rather, you know, it's baby steps. it's number. >> one. >> the request for these lists is itself. problematic because. >> the intention. >> appears to be retribution and a court is being requested to. >> stop that. >> right now, the very. turning over of the. >> list, you. >> know, the other lawsuit speaks more to retaliation and the threat to agents. what popped out at me reading these two lawsuits is i did not know the degree to which bad. guys that. >> is pardoned. >> january 6th. >> offenders have called. >> out agents by name and called for retaliation against them. and enrico terrio, head of the proud boys. calling for by. name the agent who worked. >> his case, calling her a liar. >> a jurist. and calling for retaliation against her.

>> very problematic. >> and i think exhibit a for the threat that faces agents and their families. and then, you know, the other thing is, we can't emphasize enough the, the, the bulk of the agents who worked these cases. >> are assigned. >> to the fbi's joint terrorism task forces. >> throughout the country. >> because this was an act of. >> of terrorism. >> and what does that mean? if you get rid of anywhere from 4 to 6000 agents who are assigned to jttfs, it means. >> we're wide. >> open to a terror attack. that's what it means. >> frank figliuzzi, as usual, you have focused all of our minds. let me take apart your two points one by one. let me deal with the threat environment for the agents and the country. first, it seems that that your two points are related in that once you create the list, the threat environment never changes, right? because then a list with names on it exists, and it's simply in donald

trump's hands. we know there are no lines, there's no barrier. there are no barricades. for trump between his justice department and fbi and the white house. tell me the importance of the first lawsuit going, the way of the agents seeking to stop the creation of a list in terms of, of impacting the second, moving the threat environment away from the targeting of more agents whose names are already out there. >> yeah. look, there's. i'm having trouble envisioning a lawful, >> legitimate reason, unless you're going to. andrew said this yesterday, unless you're going to give awards to all of these agents and personnel. and by the way, the other thing that struck me is there's the language in there is agents and other employees. so in some cases, we appear not to be just talking about gun and badge carrying special agents. but maybe, you know, professional staff, intelligence analysts who clearly are not used to being personally threatened or having their name out there in the

public. so that's a that's another issue. the risk and threat only rises with possible publication of these names. and therefore the idea that we're under active threat for the first time in our lives, thousands of agents could be facing a threat and their families. do i move my family? am i getting a paycheck if i if i'm summarily dismissed, which would be illegal? am i am i going to be able to feed the kids? what's what's going on? am i am i going to stop tuition payments for my college aged kids? what? what's happening? i'm not eligible for a pension. how how do i function? yes. can i win in court? i think so. is it going to take a year or two? will this go all the way to the supreme court that trump appears to own at this time? likely. so. >> andrew weissmann, we covered christopher wray's resignation ahead of a day where he could be in the room at least. where

where should christopher wray and merrick garland be today, if they want to say or do anything to protect the bureau they led in the hours and days after january 6th? >> well. >> i'm trying not to look backwards. i don't think looking forward. >> i mean, if they called, if they called in. and we'll take either their phone calls. yep. what would be helpful for them to say? >> yeah. well, i think, you know, we talked about it. i don't think chris wray should have withdrawn. i think he i don't think i disagree with his judgment that he was helping the fbi. i think it would have been better in terms of symbolizing and embodying the fact that the head of the fbi has a ten year congressional term precisely because it's supposed to be an apolitical institution. what can he and merrick garland do now? they can speak up the they are people who believe in the rule of law. you want it is a republican. one is a democrat. they could jointly make a

statement that the current law, regardless of what donald trump wants it to be in the future, the current law is that all of these employees are entitled to due process. andrew mccabe, who is the acting director of the fbi and a longtime deputy director, got it exactly right. these people are entitled to due process. we all are. these are career people and they could stand up for them and say, what is happening here is wrong. and it's so important for people to understand that, well, this is just disastrous for the fbi, as is clearly the intent of the white house. this is such a fundamental attack on the rule of law. you know, this is the preeminent law enforcement institution in this country. for all of its faults. everyone will agree that that's that's not the issue. they're like any institution. it could be better.

and but it's it is our best institution in terms of law enforcement and protecting our safety. these people deserve our praise and our thanks for their service, which they do day in and day out at risking their lives in all sorts of ways. and i mean, when i was there, i was just so in awe of the work that they were doing. it was a it was a privilege to be there, supporting them. the idea that, you see, we all saw the crimes on january 6th before our eyes. and just because somebody wants to say a whitewash that and say black is white and white is black is a time that we all have to stand up and say something. >> and it would just seem that if they were following orders, the people who issued the orders have an obligation moral, ethical and legal. and if these

agents are truly worried about their safety, they have a physical obligation to stand up, put themselves before the cameras and say, investigate me. i sent that case to that office. >> well, one thing i do want to call out is the current leadership at the fbi. with all of the firings of the very top echelon, the special agents in charge are acting admirably. they are basically doing what you want a captain on a ship to do, which is to say, take it out on us. we do not want to have the people who report to us harmed. i mean, they are really commendable. and it's, in my view, in the best traditions of law enforcement, of public servants and people who are trained to obey the law. >> have they succeeded in getting them to back down yet? >> i think that is this stalemate of just remember that the fbi is part of the department of justice. the boss, emil bove, is the boss. so that is why they're going to court. it is remarkable. the fbi, part

of the department of justice, is going to court to prevent what they say is illegal conduct by the deputy attorney general. >> unbelievable, unbelievable. we have to sneak in a quick break. no one goes anywhere. also ahead for us, as andrew is discussing, the courts could be the last line of defense against the president and his extremist followers and their understanding of their full power and their power grab with the judicial system has shown in the past, their independence is somewhat open for debate. and later in the broadcast, elon musk has not been elected to anything in our government yet. his full scale dismantling of agencies is underway, as is the resistance today. how democrats and the protectors of democracy are trying and starting to fight back against musk's takeover. we'll have all those stories and more when deadline white house more when deadline white house continues after a quick your best defense against erosion and cavities is strong enamel. nothing beats it. i recommend pronamel active shield because it actively shields the enamel

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>> government now. >> can discriminate against the citizens of the country. >> we are. >> all watching and waiting to. see who is going to hold. >> the line. don't miss the. >> weekend, saturday and sunday mornings at 8:00. >> on msnbc. >> what we do is try. >> to. >> cut right to the. >> bone of what we're seeing in washington. >> that day. >> once you show enough americans that then i think you have. >> the movement. that you need. >> behind the leadership. >> that we have in donald. >> trump is. >> my. >> position to take a wrecking ball. >> to the deep state. >> how so? >> you go to. >> d.c. and you remove all these positions, right? >> and you. >> start enacting. >> measures not. >> of retribution, but of legal consequence. and you. >> remove these people. >> from government. >> you have to go in there. >> the same thing. >> we're talking about, the voting. it's the same thing here. you got to cleanse the scrolls. government service is a service. >> we're not. >> making you do it. >> and if you break the rules and regulations, you're out. so that's a big part of it, right? >> then you bring in the new. >> bench, the new team. then

you're going to have to keep fighting the media. >> and i think. >> we're slowly over the years have started. >> to win. >> that fight. >> michael clarke, do you have any doubt that this precisely what we've been talking about for 27 minutes is exactly the plan of the incoming fbi director. >> well. >> it's i. >> was encouraged when he. >> first testified. >> where he spoke. >> that no employee. >> will be, you know, prosecuted. >> or they'd be protected from any political retribution. and i'm praying that that's still the case. >> obviously, it's. >> not been. >> so it's. >> it's very concerning. >> we're we're. >> hopeful that. >> you know, when. pam bondi is. >> confirmed as attorney general. >> that this will. >> will help us in. >> some way. >> and mr. patel. >> well. >> i know he's coming up for his.

>> confirmation hearings. >> in the near future. >> you know. >> as as president of the. >> society, we try to stay. >> nonpolitical. >> and as such, if he is. >> confirmed, we will try. >> to work. >> with him. but, you. >> know. >> we're hopeful that this hasn't poisoned. >> the well, but it's really going to be a stretch. >> frank figliuzzi, i don't i don't know either of those two individuals, but their public statements suggest that what we're talking about with great alarm and great anxiety and angst for the individual agents and their spouses and children, is something that kash patel said out loud on a podcast, he said. and you remove these people from government, you have to go in there. the same thing we were talking about with voting, it's the same thing here. you've got to cleanse the scrolls. i'm not sure what that means. government services, the service we're not making you do it. and if you break the rules

and regulations, you're out. obviously, these agents didn't break any rules or regulations, but we don't know how kash patel sees it. what do you girding for, if you will, for the confirmations of miss bondi and mr. patel? >> i think they're going to get through. and i think the fbi better get ready for patel and bondi to do precisely what they've told us to do outside of their confirmation processes. you know, these nominees have had this kind of battlefield conversion when they go before the senate. but we have to really pay attention to their prior statements and this idea that, you know, government employment is a service. yeah, it's a service to the people of america. it's not a service to the man or woman in the oval office. and it appears that that that's exactly what kash patel thinks it is, and that the wholesale cleansing of the roles of the fbi is somehow going to make the rule of law stronger and the fbi better. there's no indication that that's going to happen. the other thing i will

point out here with regard to the list compilation is if indeed, as kash patel said on that clip you played, that this was about investigating unlawful activity by these agents, then go ahead and say it, then say we need the names so we can conduct a massive investigation, agent by agent, to see if they broke any laws. that's not what they're saying. not at all. quite the contrary. they're threatening to publish these names, so we're not seeing that. i think that's going to hurt them in court. i think the doj is going to be hurt by not saying we want to just investigate what these agents did. there's no there's no hint of that. >> andrew weissmann i have been swatted. george stephanopoulos was here. he said i have been swatted. a lot of people that show up on the show have been swatted. when you are targeted as a critic of trump, local police gets involved. if you're lucky enough to have a company like this, they get involved and the fbi gets involved. will the

fbi be involved? if critics of donald trump or his administration are targeted with illegal acts again? >> so, juan, as lots of people have pointed out, local law enforcement is going to really matter. and so you have to really consider where do you live, where is this happening? you know, we're lucky that we're here in new york, and there's lots of terrific local law enforcement, but that is going to put the front and center now because of the hollowing out and the scare tactics, and which i think is the intent of the fbi. i also think what you are seeing in terms of the fbi and its training and comparing that to what i think is a blatantly false and in my view, illegal demand from the deputy attorney general is this schism, this

divide that is remarkable, where you have the sort of rank and file of the fbi doing what they're trained to do, doing what they were trained to do under director mueller, under frankly, under every director who reminds you was republican. this is this is a republican led institution. throughout its entire history, there has never been a democrat in charge of the fbi. just little note as to what we're dealing with. i think that divide. >> republicans pick republicans and democrats pick republicans. >> exactly. it's a little like special counsels. same thing. there's like a lesson in there. but i mean, but it also should belie the idea that we're dealing with some hotbed of the deep state. and i think it is a proud moment for those people in the fbi living by their training. but the but, you know, i used to say this when i was a

leader, my job was figuring out how to help those people and not be a hindrance to them. they shouldn't have to overcome me. i should be there helping them. and right now, i think this is going. >> to. >> be, you know, a sign of what you're going to see. meaning you can still probably go to your local people for that and hope they do the right thing. but it's not clear they'll be supported at headquarters and their leadership. >> this is a remarkable watershed moment. >> absolutely. >> michael clarke, we appreciate having a chance to talk to you. i hope it is not the last time. frank figliuzzi, we appreciate you being on with us again. andrew weissman, we're going to ask you to stick around a little longer ahead for us. the second trump administration could prove to be the biggest test for the american judicial system. we'll look at whether the courts will look at whether the courts will hold. that's i told myself i was ok with my moderate to severe rheumatoid arthritis symptoms... ...with my psoriatic arthritis symptoms.

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are organizing to defend the basic functions of government. many of the fights ahead are set to play out in the courts. politico reports this, quote, president donald trump's era of retribution has begun. a wave of legal resistance is next. all eyes are now on federal courts where challenges to these decisions are slowly starting to take shape. two judges have already blocked the white house from implementing its across the board spending freeze, and lawsuits in federal courts are potentially the last vanguard for those hoping to stop trump's efforts to remake the federal government. the outcome of those cases will, in some ways define the trump presidency. as politico mentions, judges have stopped the trump administration's attempt to freeze trillions in federal funding. the latest rebuke to team trump came yesterday when a judge said that their, quote, actions in this case potentially run roughshod over a bulwark of the constitution by interfering with congress's appropriation of federal funds. and as for the

administration's attempt to rescind the memo but still keep the freeze in place, the judge says this, quote, the court can think of few things more disingenuous. one might ask, do republicans care that trump is doing away with them by passing any kind of congressional oversight, their ostensible purpose? it seems that they don't care at all. here's the speaker, mike johnson. >> i think he's taken appropriate action. look, we're excited about everything that president trump. >> is accomplishing. >> he's doing a. lot by executive authority. which we applaud. and we're. >> going. >> to follow that up and really reinforce what he's doing, the agenda through legislation. >> we pay his salary as taxpayers, and he sounds like a cheerleader. joining our conversation is senior editor for slate, host of the amicus podcast. dahlia lithwick is here. also joining us, former chairman of the rnc, now co-host of msnbc's the weekend. michael steele is here. michael steele, i can see you're fired up from here. you go first.

>> yes. what? >> yeah. >> so here's the deal. you asked the question. you know. do republicans care? >> no. >> the speaker just made. that very clear. >> you're right. he is a cheerleader for all. >> of this. and there will be no slowing of this. >> train, y'all. >> all of us need to get our heads. >> out of the clouds of thinking that somehow, as we were. >> talking in your last segment. >> you know. >> the folks. well, i hope we can work with them. they don't want to work with you, boo. they want to take you out and not for dinner. okay. just so you understand what going out is, they want you out of the picture. they want. >> you powerless. >> and groveling. they want. they are now in the superiors. >> they're. >> they're now the ones in charge. 50 years of retribution. going back to republicans complained about every little thing. all of that's coming back

now. and so, yeah, i think we're in a position where we see the speaker of the house, the majority leader in the senate, just just making the lane wider for the tools of destruction to flow. through down that appian way. >> if you will, if. >> you. >> need a visual. >> all of these things coming into the great city to tear it down and. >> to blow it up. >> you know, the nominees for, you know, director of national intelligence, the fbi. >> the department of health. >> they're all getting passed. everybody is running around this town acting like there's some controversy here that republican senators are concerned and perplexed and. worried about, you know, whether or not this person is qualified. they don't give a damn if these people are qualified. they don't. why are we pretending they do? everybody's talking about senator cassidy like he's going to do something monumental like, oh, dare i say it, vote against

donald trump's nominee. come on. so i think we just need to, you know, get ourselves focused on what is coming. nicole. and all of these, you know, folks who stand in the democracy space, like myself and many others, we need to gird ourselves not to sit and hunker and wait for incoming, but to go charge those battle lines and to make sure that the american people are aware of what is about to happen to them. there are a lot of families and communities, as you well know, in the health space, in the economic space, in the government space, pick a space that will be poorly served by this administration and its ilk in the form of cabinet secretaries and undersecretaries. and people are making decisions about how we live our lives in this new america with a k. >> dahlia. the courts have replaced robert mueller and jack

smith and liz cheney and the january 6th select committee as the people who are coming to save us. and i just want to sort of a reality check as to whether or not that is one accurate and two healthy. >> is it healthy? i'll do. >> the second one first. >> it's not healthy. >> there's supposed. >> to be a three legged stool, as michael says. and congress has sort of curled up in a ball in. >> a furry. >> little ball at the president's feet. >> and that's. >> the end of that. so we only have one entity. >> now that. >> can check both. >> the legislature and the. >> executive. >> and. >> that's the courts. >> is that enough? >> look, i think it's useful to remember. >> that in. >> the first. >> trump administration, right? we remember. >> what it. >> was like. >> in the first. >> few weeks with the. rollout of the muslim ban and the courts that leapt into. >> action, and not just federal

courts. >> right. >> we had. >> all sorts. >> of, you know, we have to remember, this is a. federalist system, and we. >> have state. attorneys general around the country who. are leaping. >> leaping to the ramparts to do the work. >> so we don't have to just. >> sort of hope. >> that a couple of courts are going to do the right thing. as you said at the top. >> we've already seen injunctions. i think we're going to see more fairly quickly. >> from a bunch of federal. >> courts and from. >> other. >> you know. >> alarmed jurists. the real question is, and this is. >> the. >> one that i think a lot of lawyers are sitting with right. now is what. >> happens when. >> there's a court order. >> and unlike. >> the muslim. >> ban, where we. >> remember that the. >> trump administration. >> burnished it past. >> a second, burnished it past a. >> third. >> what happens when. >> the. >> trump administration. >> says, yeah. >> take your court order and. >> make me. and that's. >> what i think. i mean, that's a classic constitutional crisis. >> and i. think we. >> might be days away from that. >> in other words, even a maximalist ruling from. >> a court, an injunction that

should stop this. >> not clear. >> to me at this moment, based on the posture we're seeing. >> right now coming. >> from the. >> executive, coming from elon. >> musk, that. >> a court. >> order saying. >> stop. >> this will be enough to stop this. >> and let me just let me just push you on that. what happens after they refuse to abide by a court order? >> yeah. >> no. >> i mean, then. >> you're in the. >> like, super scary. >> territory of. constitutional crisis. we've been. >> there before. >> it's really a disaster for the country. >> and i. >> think by and large, when you have the guy. >> who's in. >> charge of the fbi and the military and every computer system in. >> the. >> country, and a court order on the other side, it doesn't always bode well for the rule of law. so i think that my view of this is if we come to that, then you really might be talking about the. >> end. >> of constitutional democracy as it is operated for the last two centuries. and i think. >> it's really worth. understanding that this seems. >> like an abstraction, because

it's. >> all kind of this. >> inchoate fog of checks and balances. >> and who's. >> in charge of what? >> and. >> you know, if the legislature is in charge of appropriations, what does that mean for me? but this. >> is going. >> to become, i think, really concrete and really, really real in the next few days and weeks. >> all right. we'll talk about how that will come to pass. we also have some breaking news to tell you about from the story we led with on the retribution inside the fbi. we have to sneak inside the fbi. we have to sneak in a quick when migraine strikes... do you question the tradeoffs of treating? ubrelvy is another option. it works fast, and most have migraine pain relief within two hours. you can treat it anytime, anywhere. tell your doctor all medicines you take. don't take... ...with strong cyp3a4 inhibitors. get help right away for allergic reactions like trouble breathing or face, tongue, or throat swelling, which may occur hours to days after use. common side effects include nausea and sleepiness. migraine pain relief starts with you. learn how abbvie could help you save on ubrelvy.

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few days around here. fears inside the fbi workforce of a massive purge. a source telling nbc news that the fbi has turned over to the justice department, a list of thousands of agents involved in the january 6th investigation. the list that they turned over does not have the names listed on it, but it does have the employee id numbers there, along with other details like the individual's title, the individual's current office assignment, the title at the time for the individual that the january 6th investigation took place, the role in the investigation, and the last day of their activity in the investigation. dahlia, michael and andrew are here. andrew. >> well, one, not having the names at least is a small step to so that it's harder to just take this and make it public so

that the proud boys and others can target these people. it has that going for it. once you have the employee numbers though, it's just not that hard in this. this is not that hard for anyone to just match it up and create a new list with the names on it, so that can be done. i suspect this may have been done in part because it's just not hard for the department of justice, the lawyers across the street to get access to the fbi database and just pull the information themselves. in other words, they're going to have it. so why allow them to fire you? because you didn't comply with the order. and so they took some step. and as we were saying during the break, to me, this is i'm not old enough for it, although today i'm feeling old enough for it. it feels like joe mccarthy. this is naming names and for no good reason. and that was first amendment activity. this is not just, i mean

protected activity. this is activity that we want agents to be doing. and the idea that they're on a list for retribution when you have a convicted felon in the white house and you have now the complicity of the leadership of the department of justice, it is it is such a state in terms of where we are as a country. >> michael steele. >> so andrew. >> laid it out exactly right. and andrew made a. point two. >> segments ago. >> when he was talking about this idea of removing the people and replacing them. >> well. >> now you know why. now you. know why he wanted to replace them. because to andrew's very excellent point, there's no way to stop them. so who do you who do you go to for relief? how do you how do you get the system to stand guard against actions like this? a convicted felon is orchestrating the. the

retribution against those who came after his criminal activity. i'm trying to figure out what the crime was here. that's like saying a crime happens. police and others investigate it, and then everybody goes after the investigators for investigating the crime and call them the criminals and want to go after them. so what do we what are we saying to the rest of the country now? this is this is the new order of things. crime is good for me, but not for thee. and so if you're not in my crime family, then guess what? good luck. but if you are, you're good. and so all the boneheads out here who are sitting here plotting this think this is great. maybe your day will come. trust me, because everyone gets on the wrong side of this equation at some point. and that's what republicans in the house and senate don't seem to

understand. they think the choir that we are like a church mouse in the mouse in the corner of the church, that the rector won't find you, that the that the that the lady who cleans the church won't find you. and when she does, guess what she does? she takes you out. and as i said before, not for dinner. so the reality for a lot of us right now is more of this is going to happen. more of this is happening. and i can imagine, andrew, what you're feeling right now, recognizing that the institution that you spent your career in is now under assault. >> that i just have to i want to hear dahlia on the courts, but i just will say that i am very proud of the leadership now in the fbi in terms of they've been

through hell in the last few days and that's there are times when i saw them personally do things that were just so courageous, and they're standing up for their training. but i do think that to dahlia's point, we keep on thinking that something is, you know, that that couldn't possibly happen, that couldn't possibly. there's no new low, the new low. i just want to make sure people are focusing on what dahlia is saying, which is the courts don't have an army. they can issue an order. and donald trump can say, great, good luck enforcing it. and that that is the end of the last check and balance in the system. >> dahlia, you get the last word. >> i just want to say that, you know, andrew makes a really important point, which is the last. >> couple of days. >> we've seen the leadership at the fbi do something that a lot.

>> of other. >> heads of agencies have. >> not done, which. >> is, say, don't fill out a questionnaire and, you know, answer whether. >> or not you worked on j6. >> don't narc on. >> your friends. >> like we. >> will take the hit. >> and they. >> have really. >> modeled in a way that i think andrew is right. we have to lift up. this is what it takes to be a leader in the midst of what looks like a coup. and all credit to. >> them because we're not seeing. a ton of that. >> but i think. the other. >> thing that i. >> really want to lift up, that we're all. >> saying here. >> today, is. >> that these are people who whose. >> names have been. >> named. >> who have been singled out for. >> retribution and opprobrium because they were doing. >> their jobs, they did their jobs. they did exactly what they were instructed to do. >> and so. >> just to michael's point, the next. time they. >> come for someone. >> for just doing their jobs, don't be surprised because it turns out lawfully doing your job can now be reconstituted as

disloyalty. >> and. >> deep state activity. and that if that doesn't sort of send a shiver through every single person who works for the. >> government. >> that it should. >> and that is the point, i believe. dahlia, michael and andrew, thank you so much for this very really, probably the most important conversation we've had for the last 16 days. thank you. ahead for us, how democrats are starting to resist what donald trump and elon musk are trying to do to our government and institutions. my name's dan and i live here in san antonio, texas. government and institutions. we'll show it to you i ran my own hvac business and now i'm retired. i'm not good being retired. i'm a pain in the neck. i like to be able to have a purpose. about three or four years ago, i felt like i was starting to slip. i saw the prevagen commercials. after a short amount of time taking prevagen, i started noticing a difference-- i stopped taking prevagen and i found myself slacking back so i jumped right back on it. i've been taking prevagen for about two years now, and i've found a huge difference. prevagen. for your brain.

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the telltale signs. >> of a coup. a coup is a seizure of state power. >> by unelected actors. >> who work. >> to take over. >> the critical infrastructure of government outside of the rule of law. and that's what i see as going on right now.

>> hi again everybody. it's 5:00 in new york. it is as simple as that. according to congressman jamie raskin, what what we are witnessing right now in our government with our own eyes as the world's richest man, elon musk holds a remarkably unprecedented in terms of how prominent his role is in the basic functions and operations of the united states government and calling it a coup. in fact, at this moment, a fast growing crowd of democrats and other activists numbering more than 300 are holding a nobody elected elon rally outside the united states treasury building protesting what we have seen these last two weeks. elon musk taking a wrecking ball to government agencies in the name of cost cutting, inserting himself into significant decisions about operations and personnel, and having his team gain access to sensitive systems, including a major one at the treasury department with important and in some instances, classified material. new york times takes a deep dive today into elon musks takeover of the

federal government, but they describe as a, quote, extraordinary flexing of power by a private individual, by waging a largely unchecked war against the federal bureaucracy from that new reporting, quote, musk's aggressive incursions into at least half a dozen government agencies have challenged congressional authority and potentially breach civil service protections. in his current role, musk has a direct line to trump and operates with little, if any, accountability or oversight, according to people familiar with the dynamic. he often enters the white house through a side entrance and drops into meetings. he has a close working relationship with trump's top policy adviser, stephen miller, who shares musk's contempt for much of the federal workforce. the new york times reports that elon musk has moved beds into the headquarters of the federal personnel office and surrounded himself with young employees, quote, some of the young workers on musk's team share a similar uniform blazers worn over t

shirts at the general services administration, which musk has also involved himself with. some staff members began calling the team the bobs, a reference to management consultant characters from the dark comedy movie office space, who were responsible for layoffs. but this is not a comedy. this is real. this is happening. this is the functions of the government of the united states of america, functions that profoundly impact the lives of at least the 300 million, 350 million people here. and democrats are calling it out, while republicans seem to agree with all of it. here's senator patty murray of washington. >> we are pursuing every action that we think we can do. but i will tell you this we are here to pull the fire alarm. we are pulling the fire alarm. it is up to republicans who are the majority in congress, who are passing these nominations, who are sitting silently by while elon musk goes into departments,

into agencies and takes your information. it is up to them to decide whether they want to get out the fire hoses or sit in the fire. and i think we know what they need to do, and we're calling on them to do that. >> as we start the hour with the president of media matters for america, angelo carusone, also joining us, former republican congressman and msnbc political analyst david jolly is here. and my friend and colleague, nbc news white house correspondent vaughn hillyard. angelo, i start with you. >> i think i would just remind everyone. >> is that this is all terrible. >> we all accept that. but just to keep in mind some perspective, if this is a marathon, we're barely. >> at the first mile mark. >> and i'm not saying that to be dramatic. it's just that they they said what they were. going to do in advance and they will document it. i mean, ross vote isn't even. >> in omb yet, officially. >> and before he got there, he was very clear that they have 350 documents already prepared to roll out that include all. >> of these sorts of plans.

>> and then when you overlay what's. >> happening right. >> now, this is sort of like starting the. >> process. >> greasing the. >> wheels of the machinery that this larger. >> plan is. >> designed to. >> then implement. you got. >> to get things going. you got to get things started. and so what. musk is doing. >> is through a. combination of practice and experience. >> and force of will and obviously ties with with the administration. he is just going. >> in. >> there and. >> breaking. >> moving and creating as much kinetic. energy and then breaking. up as much inertia that existed in these bureaucracies, so that it's a lot easier and to not just do all the things they're doing now, but what's the end goal? it's actually to either replace it or eliminate a whole bunch of these government functions. and so that's why i just note that we're at the beginning, not the end. this is going to be a long curve, and we just need to steel ourselves for that reality. >> aoc called him out as not smart. let me play that for all of you. >> this dude is probably. >> one of the most unintelligent billionaires i have ever met or

seen or witnessed, which, you know, you can probably even glean that from watching these people on tv. anyways, all of that is to say is that they don't do their homework clearly, like they're putting 19 year olds in at the treasury. this dude is not smart. and the danger in not in the lack of intelligence and the lack of expertise that elon has. i mean, this guy is one of the most morally vacant, but also. just. >> least knowledgeable about. >> these systems that we really know of. but the point is, is that what that means is that they're going to hit a button. >> inevitably they. >> are going to hit a button and things can go sideways.

>> i mean, david jolly to angela's point, they haven't really started yet, but to congress, the congresswoman's point, i think the politics haven't started yet either. they're at usaid. most americans don't know why that matters or how that affects their lives. i think most people like that we help people around the world. but, but, but maybe the cynic in me thinks people feel like we're hurting. why don't we spend the money here? but to the congresswoman's point and to angela's point, they're going to press something that impacts everyone's life. if you have a child that receives reading support or has a learning disability, they plan to get rid of the department of education. that's in the plan. that's on paper. if you rely on benefits that the veterans administration or health care, you need your appointment. they've got people in there that that don't care about the functions of government and aren't, to quote the congresswoman that aren't, quote, knowledgeable about the systems, just weigh in on on where we are in the marathon.

>> so. >> nicole, in. >> the. >> november election, more americans voted for someone other than donald. >> trump, than. >> americans who voted for donald trump. we say he got 49%. what that means is more americans chose somebody other than donald trump, and yet he's declared a mandate. and you could say misreading it. but we know it's out of vanity and arrogance, and republicans. >> are treating it like. >> a mandate as well. and so i. think to angelo's point, they're doing what they said they would do. this is project 2025 being enacted. they are attacking the government workforce. they're attacking agencies they don't like, they're attacking policies. but where i, i would ring the alarm bell right now and. >> not. >> wait for the marathon is in how they are doing it. because in how they are doing it, they're creating a constitutional crisis. there is a way to attack usaid, even try to shutter it. there's a way to attack the department of education or birthright citizenship. and it's in working through the legislative process where the budget process and by the way, donald trump and republicans have a budget due

in. about six weeks. >> before the government closes. >> they could do all of these things through the legislative process. what is creating the constitutional crisis is they're violating the law. they're violating the executive authority of the president and the way they're doing it, and they're doing it with a guy named elon musk, who. probably has. >> greater influence. >> over a president. >> than. >> anybody in history. i mean, he is now like a first spouse to donald trump. and it is fair on some days to ask, who's the president here? because elon musk is making these decisions. and you saw in the presser yesterday where the gaggle, donald trump. >> was trying to. >> kind of play cleanup, that he knew what musk was doing. >> when it's clear. >> he doesn't. and i think we can't just overlook whistle through the. graveyard of the crisis we're in right now and how they are abusing their constitutional authority. but the reason we're also in a constitutional crisis, to senator murray's point, is not just donald. trump and elon musk. it's the congress has collapsed, the republican congress has collapsed. and if we are indeed entering a marathon of a constitutional

crisis, the first step was a collapsing republican congress, because the only two ways to control executive authority are through the courts, like andrew and michael and others. and dahlia, we're talking in the last segment, but that. takes time. the other. >> way that. >> the founders envisioned was the political. oversight of the congress to say, absolutely not. you can't do that either, through the power of the purse, the power of impeachment oversight hearings. if democrats. >> were on the. >> hill today. >> elon musk. >> would be. at a. >> hearing table tomorrow. donald trump's administration would be at a hearing table tomorrow. republicans don't care if we're in a constitutional crisis. it's maybe more because the republicans on the hill than it is donald trump, who told us, as angelo said, exactly what he was going to do. >> i mean, david jolly, let me follow up with you, because i agree that the crisis is right now, and i know that people are disoriented by the democrats posture. they are, we should say, right now at a rally in front of treasury. but but the structural breaking of the

system is the republicans. do we want to listen in? we're going to keep an eye on that and we'll dip in in a minute. but the what broke listen, tucker eskew or tucker eskew tucker carlson called donald trump a, quote, demonic force. jd vance called donald trump, quote, america's hitler. mitch mcconnell called donald trump a, quote, despicable human being. kevin mccarthy thought that impeachment was too slow, wanted to get rid of donald trump more quickly. so he he asked around about the 25th amendment. the republicans in congress believe he is all those things, and they have gone along with him out of i don't know what, political expedience, personal fear. when the republican party collapsed, it was a political story, but it was also a function of government story. and i wonder, i feel like we're paying a price for not covering that part of the story and just focusing on

the politics. >> yeah. >> i. >> i this. >> is. >> not a missive. >> i, i think. >> there's more ignorance in today's republican congress than there is honor. and what i mean by that is very few people elected today understand the actual responsibility of the congress. they are elected as part of a party machine, and they're to support the boss and nothing more, and frankly, spend more time on social media or fundraising than they do reading the constitution or doing their jobs. and in that is an ignorance of their responsibility. >> in. >> this moment. and there's also a lack of honor, a certain amorality where. >> they just. >> don't care to resist, as donald trump and elon musk are doing these things. and i would suggest to critics of democrats, most democratic leaders right now are doing all they can do. given where the numbers are. the math is the math. there are only so many things. we saw senator schatz yesterday saying he's putting a hold on state department nominees. you're going to see delays in the process as democrats try to do this. hopefully hakeem jeffries gives gives mike johnson zero votes on legislating any of

these. and so they will grind to a halt as best as they can. but the collapse of the system is because where congress can't have the votes to support trump's agenda, they're just looking the other way as donald trump pursues it anyway. and that is where. >> he's shattering. >> the constitution. the constitution is a remarkable framework. we all know that. but it's only so elastic. eventually it breaks. if you have a leader like donald trump and republicans who say, go for it, boss. >> vaughn hillyard, there are a lot of things that are classic trump stuff, and there are some things that are new. elon musk having more power and influence over the government than trump is new. trump sought to be a top of everything the first time around. he seems to be happy to have elon be the alpha and donald the beta. i want to understand that relationship. i also want to put some political reality up here. i know we're able to report that the white house is prepared to eliminate the department of education, according to two sources who

told their plans, told us of their plans. but but here are the states that receive money from the department of education. the first 17 are red states with representatives in congress. i mean, the whole first half of the chart is red states. the only blue state that makes i think the first 20 is new mexico. what is the plan to turn the government and the white house and the presidency over to elon musk? and will anything coming out of a red state in terms of suffering from the elimination of entire agencies, which they're not even legally allowed to do, slow this down. >> how about this, nicole? we've heard very little concern from republican lawmakers here on the senate side of the capitol. just as context, you know, the last time i actually wandered the halls of congress, much was about eight years ago, back in the first months of 2017, when i was still here with nbc. but i remember at the time being taken aback by people like john

mccain, jeff flake, ben sasse, bob corker. there was a litany of republicans who pushed back on efforts at the white house. and here in just the last few days that i've spent here on capitol hill, attempting to ask the likes of john cornyn, right. the longtime senator out of texas, i said, what concerns do you have about the way that elon musk is a private citizen has come in and effectively put him and several other individuals into such extraordinary roles across agencies? and he said that he appreciated the influence that elon musk was having. and then i asked tom tillis, who was one time a senator who is a little bit more reticent to trump era style of republican politics. and i asked him very specifically, had he reached out to the white house over any concerns about the access that musk and his team had had to treasury payment system or opm personnel files or usaid and effectively crippling its operations. and he said, why

would i be concerned? why would i reach out if i'm not concerned? and i think that that is really kind of the aura of what we have heard from republican lawmakers. speaker mike johnson, again, when we're talking about where federal funding and states that are impacted, you're talking about red states, his home state of louisiana. when he was asked about elon musk here this afternoon, he had said he had been texting with him in just the last hour, and he urged him to keep going. and frankly, what we don't have an answer to is what comes next. you know, there is somebody on on social media who posted, quote, if you think usaid was big, just wait. to which elon musk, with a sunglasses emoji, responded, quote, yes. and i frankly don't believe that republican lawmakers here on capitol hill, because they have not articulated, have an understanding of what's to come next themselves. >> angela, you've read the book up and down. what is next? >> and the. >> thing that i would say is next is a few things. one, they are going to learn that the department of education, once

they start to move their people into the fbi and other justice department roles. and that's the thing to keep in mind now, we're in the early, really early stages of. >> the purges. >> of the firings of the removals of staff. then once they shrink that down, they're going to replace it with intense loyalists. so you were talking earlier about before the people that are working with elon musk and doge, that's just a half a dozen people. now, magnify that by 100, because that's what they plan on rolling into key and pivotal roles across the board. so aside from the department of education elimination, they'll start rolling through and breaking other, other independent agencies. and that's the first prong in all of this is to go after all of these agencies that they that previously identified as independent. that's as much about the programs that those groups did, as it is about establishing power within the executive branch. there's a reason why they're making it clear that marco rubio is the acting director of usaid. they're reinforcing this idea that any agency, any any entity that used to be considered independent is no longer. so they're going to keep reinforcing that authority. and then the third is and you talk

about this in the segment right before ours, is that it's not just when it comes to the fbi. there's going to be the purge and the removals, but then they're going to start going after individuals when they replace them with their loyalists. and that to me is the is the next step in all of this. and it ties in with what david was discussing before, is that this is sort of the beginning of this constitutional crisis. and the first step is to sort of consolidate and integrate all of that power into one place and neutralize any of the things that would serve as counterbalances. and so in this moment, as people are mad at republicans in congress and democrats in congress, and i get the frustration. but we also have to appeal to and also be frustrated with republicans, too. we've all sort of, you know, this group, but but broadly speaking, we've long too long accepted that republicans in congress, you know, don't have to be held to the same account, just as like basic responsibilities in government. we see this a lot when the debt ceiling fight comes up, it's always like, well, what are democrats going to do to prevent republicans from destroying the government or the economy or whatever? we just presume that they're not going to be doing

their work effectively and don't have some larger obligation than to their party and their selfish political interests. and i do think it's important that we start weaving that narrative back in, because that's a really critical counterbalance in this moment. but that's what's next. >> chris murphy is speaking at this rally outside of treasury. let's listen in. >> the senate. >> every single morning. we don't pledge allegiance to the billionaires. we don't we don't pledge allegiance to elon musk. we don't pledge allegiance to the creepy 22 year olds working for elon musk. we pledge allegiance to the united states of america. and so i want to make sure that my mother gets her. >> security. >> her social security check, not because she pledged his allegiance to elon, but because she pledged his allegiance to the united states of america. i want to make sure your neighbor gets their tax refund, not because they pledge allegiance to the billionaire class, but because they pledge allegiance

to the united states of america. and so we have work to do right now. every single one of us has a responsibility to stand up to this fraud. and it is true we have to reach out to everyone in this country conservatives, liberals, republicans, democrats, and tell them that we have not months, we have not weeks, but we have days to stop the destruction. >> of our democracy. >> we have. >> work to do. and so. we will fight. we will fight with. you to make sure that in this country it is the people that rule. it is the people that rule, not the billionaires. we are taking back this country from elon musk. thank you everybody. >> great. >> good job chris. >> no one's going anywhere. there's much more with our

panel. as the dismantling of the federal government, led by an unelected private billionaire, the world's richest man, by the way, continues at lightning pace. we'll continue to keep an eye on that rally happening live outside the treasury department. our own alex wagner is there. we'll have a chance to speak to her after a very short break. stay with us. >> skating for over 45 years has taken a toll on my body. i take qunol turmeric because it helps with healthy joints and inflammation support. why qunol? it has superior absorption it has superior absorption compared to regular turmeric ♪♪ well would you look at that? jerry, you've got to see this. i've seen it. trust me, after 15 walks, it gets a little old. ugh. i really should be retired by now. wish i'd invested when i had the chance... to the moon! unbelievable. stop waiting. start investing.

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in the average household, there are dozens of connected devices. connectivity is a big part of my boys' lives. it brings people together in meaningful ways. week. >> now is the time. so we're going to do it. settle in. >> the rachel maddow. >> show weeknights at. >> nine on msnbc. >> we're going to listen in to senator elizabeth warren, who's speaking at the podium to about a thousand people gathered at the nobody elected ellen rally outside the treasury department. >> we are here to. fight back. >> fight back, fight back.

>> now. no one elected elon musk to nothing. >> that's right. >> not one democrat in america voted for elon musk. >> not one. >> not one republican in america voted for elon musk. not one independent in america voted for elon musk. not one libertarian in america voted for elon musk. damn. not one vegetarian in america voted for elon musk. and yet elon musk is seizing the power that belongs to the american people. we are here to fight back. >> yes, yes. >> this is no longer business as

usual. we will speak out. we will rally. >> we will. >> power a movement all across this country. elon musk wants power and we will fight back. >> yes, >> yes, yes. >> so good to see you. >> thank you, thank. >> you, thank you dear. thank you. it's all yours. >> all right, let's. >> set it up. >> david jolly. this is happening outside the united states treasury department. about a thousand people gathered. we should say this is one fight. elon, elon musk taking over the various agencies. there are two lawsuits that were filed this afternoon in the last three, four hours about the purge underway at the fbi. to angelo's point, there is there is a project 2025 trump

plan to do a whole lot of damage. but i wonder, in your view, how much is the feeling of momentum, confidence and inevitability a tool being deployed by maga? and how much of that is a reality? >> yeah. >> oh sure. declaring a mandate when more people in the country voted against you than for you is absolutely kind of seizing momentum and declaring it. i think what you see elizabeth warren and democrats doing is using one of the strongest tools they have, which are their voices. i mean, if you can move public opinion and move public sentiment, the way the constitution is supposed to work is that the citizenry then influences the congress to perhaps act and have oversight hearings. i think there's a lot going on. there's a lot of battles on different fronts here. one is the use of elon musk, someone, perhaps without any authority to be doing what he's doing. did he access sensitive information of americans treasury information, financial information? does he have any of the authority under what was reconstituted, as, i believe, a digital rights agency, to actually implement

part of this agenda on behalf of the president? there's a lot there to deconstruct there. the constitutional questions i mentioned. and then there are the policy questions. and it's hard when those all intersect because they all feel so existential. the truth is, project 2025 could be implemented through the normal, normal legislative and constitutional process, the dismantling of the department of education and so forth. and so for democrats and everyone who is pushing back on this, do you fight the constitutional questions that are being abused? do you fight the policy issues? do you fight the use of elon musk? i think the worst thing to do is to just give up and say it's too much. i think the agenda for democrats and others in the country going forward for the next four years is oppose, propose and prepare, oppose the constitutional violations, oppose the bad policy, propose others, propose an agenda for america. we believe there should be tax cuts, less gun violence. we think we should get money out of politics. what is it that is a contrast to what republicans

are doing now and then prepare. because the other thing all is not lost. this is not a mandate, though. they declare it. but we have seen mandates before. bush 41 had a 92% approval rating and 18 months later lost to bill clinton. bush, 43, had a grip on the country after nine over 11 and handed the reins of power to barack obama. donald trump could just as easily turn power over to a democrat in four years than he could to a republican, but we've got to oppose his agenda where it's right, and propose an alternative one. >> joining us by phone is my colleague, msnbc anchor alex wagner. she is at the nobody elected elon rally outside the treasury department. alex, what are you seeing and hearing? >> well. >> i'll first say, you know. >> it started at. >> a i would. >> say like 250 people and. >> it's grown. it's swelled in size. so much. >> of what this administration. >> has done has been as our. as our. colleague and friend rachel. >> maddow says. >> shambolic, not thinking through what. >> the implications. >> of these moves are. >> and it is. >> quite clear.

>> that democrats. >> and people. >> interested in a functioning government. >> have found, i. >> think. >> the beginnings of what could be real resistance. nicole. you know. >> the. >> resistance as it was, you know, the most recent iteration of it in 2020, sorry, 2017. >> has not. >> come to fruition thus far. and today, this. >> moment really feels. like an. inflection point for that potentially. you know, this is an economic populist message that is being discussed today. >> and. >> championed here. >> an unelected. >> billionaire coming. >> in and holding hostage the fortunes, the. >> futures, the payroll. >> the social security. payments of american. >> citizens and federal workers. >> you know. >> i. >> mean, the. >> dichotomy between. >> elon musk and the. >> doge team storming the treasury. >> and hundreds of thousands of. >> federal workers. >> in washington. >> d.c. >> around the country. it's not. >> millions being held. >> in. >> limbo. feeling that they are vulnerable, that they've been marginalized. >> they are working people, too. and i. >> think democrats, you know, there are a number. >> of democrats here from.

>> the. >> oversight committee. >> they understand. >> that this is a real problem for trump. and what's interesting, nicole. >> is that. >> all the. >> signs aren't about donald trump. they're about elon musk. there has been no. >> thinking inside. >> the. >> trump administration. >> about the optics. >> of having. >> an. >> unelected billionaire. do the bidding. >> and do the dirty work of the trump administration. >> and i. >> think what. >> you. >> see here. >> is a real catalytic moment for. >> for people who. >> have felt. >> voiceless and unheard and. not organized, in a sense, in the wake of the swearing in of the 47th president. and i will say it feels very electric. >> you know, alex wagner had the sense watching chris murphy after, frankly, since the election, but especially after the freezing of all government fundings, sort of lead his party to where they are today outside. and elizabeth warren has been doing the same thing. it feels like those two voices helped resuscitate the democratic movement, the democratic vibes, or got their groove back.

however you want to phrase it. i wonder how behind the scenes chris murphy and elizabeth warren are shaping and leading the leaders of the democratic party? >> well, yeah. i mean, when warren came. >> out, you could sense like a change in the. >> enthusiasm in. >> the crowd. this is. like talking about the system being rigged, is what elizabeth warren's. >> message. >> has been for years. you know, and there's probably no. >> more. >> effective ambassador on. >> that message than elizabeth warren and the democratic party. >> and i think chris murphy has had probably the most gimlet eye on the situation as far as. >> what americans. >> are, what's resonating. >> with americans nationally. >> and i think. >> they both understand the sense of. >> unfairness, a. >> sense of cruelty that lies at the heart of what the trump. administration is doing and going to do. you know, they're all talking about tax cuts. >> because that's. >> that's actually one of the. >> things trump. >> wants to do. >> he wants to tear. down the law. >> but the people who. >> are thinking most about are the richest. >> in our society. and to have

elon. musk do the. >> bidding to basically put federal. >> workers on the altar of billionaire interests is, you know, it's not in addition to being amoral and. >> unethical. >> it's absolutely. >> terrible strategy. >> couple that with. >> what they're going to actually. >> try and. >> pass in congress in terms of. >> the economy and tax cuts. and i think. >> democrats are. >> beginning to see. >> the grassroots. >> and the green. >> shoots of a message. >> to counter. >> you know, what has been thus. >> far a very. >> effective spin, if you will, coming from the trump administration and trump as a candidate. >> democrats. >> i think. honestly, i tell. >> you this. >> standing outside in the cold in front of the treasury, the treasury department, it feels like. >> they're kind of. >> figuring out their footing. >> for. >> the. >> first. >> time in months. >> vaughn hillyard, let me bring you in quickly on this. it also feels like the fight that was had between elon musk and steve bannon may have more consequences than which guy gets to move his beds and his people and his bobs into the eeob. i mean, steve bannon spoke for some of the people. alex is talking about the working class.

he's clearly the loser of that fight for the affections of donald trump. between musk and bannon. and bannon, frankly, was the vanguard against trump, lurching to publicly into the laps and arms of oligarchs and billionaires. >> right. he was somebody that tried to urge the president to remember who voted him into office, and to make sure that he formed an administration that may not reflect it necessarily. and he didn't in the first. and the second administration doesn't necessarily reflect it either, but not to allow elon musk to retain so much power. and i think that that is where, if i may, when you look at project 2025, the 900 page book, right, it wasn't elon musk that wrote it, but it's the book that has been handed to him. and when you go and look at the section that specifically talks about usaid, it's very explicit in project 2025 that usaid should, quote, pilot test, the

replacement of civil servants with political appointees through the schedule f executive order that was signed by donald trump on day one. and that's exactly what we have watched take place. usaid, the department of education appears to be next, as well as the tentacles of elon musk and doge inside of other agencies here. and so in so many ways, when we talked about right reason for concerns about the darkness into the lack of understanding of what doge is doing, not just for the public at large, but for members of congress, it comes down to the fact that he has essentially been handed a playbook, and with individuals that are eager to carry out the plan, but in so many ways has not articulated himself the extent to just how far this will go. and that is a sharp contrast. let's be very clear, nicole, to steve bannon. steve bannon is an explicit as you could be. you can listen to his podcast any day. and he tells you exactly the direction that he believes the maga movement should go. he had said right before the election, he told me that donald trump was a moderate

in the maga movement. right. nobody would question the ways in which steve bannon, where he sought to take the government and by and large, steve bannon wanted that to make sure that he held on to the legions of millions of americans that catapulted donald trump into the white house two different times. and now, of course, elon musk, though, where does he take this power? and if at any point donald trump tried to reel him back or give him the boot from the white house, what does that ultimately look like? what are the consequences of it? i think we are so far from understanding that not only as journalists, but a public at large. and i think there's a lot of questions here on capitol hill, not just for democrats, but republicans, too. >> i think for donald trump as well, to understand that by shifting the power away from steve bannon, who has literally his hands on the pulse of the base of the maga movement, to elon musk, who is all the things aoc said he is, is untested. it's unchartered territory for trump himself. i want to thank everyone who has gotten us through this breaking news. my

colleague alex wagner, angelo carusone, my colleague vaughn hillyard. thank you. david jolly sticks around a little bit longer when we come back. tulsi gabbard is one step closer to becoming america's director of national intelligence. the risks that folks say that poses to u.s. national security. we'll have that conversation with former director of the cia, john former director of the cia, john brennan after a (tony hawk) i still love to surf, snowboard, and of course, skate, so i take qunol magnesium to support my muscle and bone health. qunol's high-absorption magnesium glycinate helps me get the full benefits of magnesium. qunol. the brand i trust. i'm thinking of updating my kitchen... —yeah? —yes! ...this year, we are finally updating our kitchen... ...doing subway tile in an ivory, or eggshell... —cream?... —maybe bone?... don't get me started on quartz. a big big island... you ever heard of a waterfall counter?... for everyone who talks about doing that thing, and, over there. but never does that thing... a sweet little breakfast nook. chase has financial guidance. let's see how you can start saving to make this happen. —really? —really?

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he won't take sides about nine over 11. this is not the republican party that i've been familiar with. >> morning in america. the trump version, ladies and gentlemen, that was virginia senator tim kaine on the disappearance of anything resembling a traditional republican party as robert kennedy jr, who has entertained conspiracy theories about the nine over 11 attack and played a key role in spreading dangerous, dangerous false misinformation about vaccines, has been voted out of committee. he's now one step closer to being the country's top health official. and tulsi gabbard, who's been referred to as, quote, our girlfriend by russian state tv, has been advanced out of her committee and is now one step closer to overseeing american intelligence gathering as the director of national intelligence. gabbard's nomination was advanced in a closed door vote by 9 to 8, in what appeared to be a party line vote. kennedy was advanced 14 to

13 along party lines, with all 14 republicans on that committee voting for the guy who was called a predator by his own cousin last week, and whose 75 nobel laureates said would endanger public health. let's bring in to our coverage former cia director, now senior national security analyst john brennan. david jolly is still with us. director brennan, i want to play for you some coverage from russian state tv. after tulsi gabbard was first tapped. >> to. >> be nuts. >> with tulsi. >> gabbard at. the iota lab of putin avenue. >> mr. >> nazar. nazar the kremlin tiktok's moderna narrative. trump needs to choose the most volatile. nut 33 years lloyd

austin the fact that. it constitutes. american greatness. mr. >> interestingly enough. >> i mean, on that last point, i believe them very interesting times are ahead for the united states and for us in russia as well. what does it mean for the intelligence agencies that tulsi gabbard is one step closer to sitting atop them? >> well, i think there's worry. >> throughout the intelligence community, the women and men of the intelligence community really deserve. >> to have. >> a leader who is going to fulfill the solemn obligations and. responsibilities of the office that they're going to hold. >> and it's. >> quite clear that a number of the nominees for these senior positions are not just unqualified, but have disqualifying aspects to their record. and with tulsi gabbard, i think there's been a long litany of concerns about the statements that she's made, the visits. >> that. >> she's taken to. visit with

the bashar al-assad in syria, the. >> conspiracy theories. >> that she traffics. >> and i know that the again, the intelligence professionals throughout the community want to make sure that they have someone who's going to ensure that their roles are going to be supported in terms of making sure that they tell the proverbial. >> truth to power. >> and so it's. >> i think, a. >> concern that they have. >> that this process. >> of selecting individuals based on loyalty is antithetical to what it is that really these these professionals need. and i'll just pick up on something that david jolly said earlier. i was listening that it's clear that the. republicans in congress have just. >> abdicated their. >> responsibilities and acquiesced to the white house as far as these nominations are concerned. clearly, there was more than ample evidence to deny some of these individuals support in committee and then on the full senate. but it's clear that they, the republicans in

congress, are either intimidated or fearful just going to go along with what is happening right now in the executive branch of the government, which is in some respects free fall when we see what's going on in the fbi and other places. so i think there's real concern and worry right now in the intelligence community about what might be in front of them. just the way. they see what's happening in the department of justice and in the cia and in the fbi. >> director brennan, i was startled to learn that richard burr, who, as chairman of the senate intelligence committee, authored the harshest report about donald trump's ties to russia during trump's first presidency. sort of laundered. tulsi gabbard, he was her shepherd. he vouched for her, brought her in front of one of the committees for one of her hearings. i wonder what it means that someone who the russians see as their, quote, girlfriend is now being sort of shoved down the throat to the republicans, why they acquiesce, and what

that means about a party that used to be shaped by views like john mccain's and ronald reagan's when it comes to russia. >> yeah, this is. >> to mccain said. this is not a republican party that i recognize. >> i was. >> shocked when i saw that richard burr was endorsing tulsi gabbard. richard burr has, you know, long experience in the intelligence community and oversight in congress. but i know that the russians have been rejoicing what they see happening to the federal government right now can only play to their interests in terms of the dismantling, the chaos, the disarray that is taking place, the firing of individuals across the board, the fbi agents who are engaged in the counterintelligence investigations in this country to uncover and to thwart the efforts by the russians, the chinese and other adversaries here in the country. so, again, this is just, you know, one more indication that donald trump is

interested in only having individuals within his cabinet and at the helm of these departments who will do everything he says. and the fact that elon musk is driving a lot of this, you know, quite frankly, i believe that elon musk is probably chortling behind trump's back about how quickly and comprehensively he's been able to usurp the powers of the presidency and do these things in the federal government in just a few short weeks. so i do think we are in dangerous waters right now. >> the biggest story, i think probably since the days after the 2020 election that trump lost david jolly, is the capitulation of the republican party to trumpism. not just trump the man, but to trumpism. and i wonder what it means that that mitch mcconnell, who was the senate leader, who if you're a conservative republican who likes what has happened to the judiciary, i don't i think it endangers all of us and our

rights. but if you are mitch mcconnell's voice on polio and experience with polio should have captured the attention or focused the mind and mustered not 1 or 2 votes against rfk, but universal condemnation if you're an actual doctor. i mean, rfk guarantees that all of our kids will go to school with kids that get very sick because their parents are not sure anymore about the safety or efficacy of vaccines. women will will die because they'll go to the hospital in a crisis situation and not be able to receive the health care they need, because doctors will be confused about what their rights are and what they're able to do. if you're an intelligence agent or if you're an intelligence employee, you'll be looking over your shoulder for the purge at your agency, because you surely saw what happened today at the fbi. if you're in the pentagon, you're going to be really, really, really scared about anything you do with a woman or a person of color. because die is what trump

called out and blamed for the deadliest air collision in our country's history. what does it mean that the republican party has cheered and ushered in all of these people who endanger so many americans? >> it's an ignoble party now, and one of the most dispiriting parts of the modern narrative is the collapse of the republican congress. in this case of constitutional check, the republican party writ large, the safeguard that we should have, the reason the nation feels so vulnerable under trump 2.0, is because we've lost the safeguard of the us congress. as we mentioned, you have the courts and the congress. the courts take a long time, pretty effective at times, but it's really the congress that rushes into an emergency, a constitutional crisis, and helps resolve it. and they're unwilling to do so. and part of that is the elevation of these nominees. i mean, what was so convincing to republican senators about rfk jr. was it his opposition to science, his opposition to public health, his opposition to vaccines? what what part of this was convincing

to you on tulsi gabbard, who just got approved by committee? what was so convincing about her? was it her sympathies for russia, her sympathies for assad, her sympathies for snowden? this is a realignment taking place not just within the republican party, but if trump is successful, a realignment of a world view on behalf of the united states, but a minority world view, we know that. and there's an opportunity to contest this in two years at the midterms, four years for a presidential. >> all right. we have to sneak >> all right. we have to sneak in a quick break. we're going t in the wayborhood, every delivery is a treat. one pistachio for you, sir. one strawberry poof, please. oh. enjoy it. oh, poofect. bye waybor. something minty? of course, it's a large. [ gasps ] ♪ ♪ a double. lucky. ♪ wayfair. every style. every home. ♪

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right for you. piece of land, and we get some people to put up the money to build it and make it nice and make it habitable and enjoyable and make it a home. >> i don't. >> want. >> to leave, though. >> palestinians say they don't. >> want. >> to leave. i don't know how they could want to stay. it's a demolition site. it's a pure demolition site. if we could find the right piece of land or numerous pieces of land and build them some really nice places with plenty of money in the area, that's for sure. i think that would be a lot better than going back to gaza, which has had just decades and decades of death. >> where would those. >> pieces of land be? >> well. >> they could be in jordan and they could be in egypt, or they could be in other places. you could have more than two. more

than one. >> but that was donald trump joining our coverage. new york times diplomatic correspondent michael crowley. michael crowley what does that mean? >> well. >> nicole. first of. >> all. >> is it really at all realistic? you know, these. >> countries where trump is. >> saying. >> that the. >> palestinians in. >> gaza can go live. don't want. >> them for. >> a variety. >> of reasons, you know, largely to do with concerns. >> about their. >> own political stability. they don't. >> want to. take on large. >> numbers of. >> refugees. >> many of whom. you know, are looking to exact revenge. >> against the. >> israelis and, and potentially embroil countries that they go into, into, into conflict. >> but it also means. >> that. >> you know. >> president trump is. >> opening a new chapter in. american foreign policy. on the conflict in gaza and on. >> the. >> israeli-palestinian conflict. >> i mean, this is a. >> really pretty radical shift

in american views. the biden administration flatly ruled this. >> idea out immediately. >> when the conflict. began in gaza. and no other administration that i'm aware of has seriously entertained. >> this idea. so it's. >> a dramatic change. i think it will come as music to the ears of. israel's right wing, where there is talk of resettling gaza, having israeli. settlers return there. but the practicality. >> of it is. >> very, very difficult. and if trump is able to get some countries to actually. take some of these palestinians. >> that would be very surprising and interesting. >> it's going to require a lot of pressure. >> and i at. >> this moment, don't see it happening. >> we're awaiting michael, a bilat between president trump and prime minister netanyahu. what do we expect them to announce? >> well. >> i don't think we know exactly, nicole. >> but. >> you know, it will be very interesting. >> to. >> see the degree to. which they. >> are able.

>> to. speak in unison. >> you know, there. >> has been an assumption. >> for a. >> while now that. >> trump is just. >> going to give netanyahu a blank check to do whatever he wants. >> and to. >> take one example, one of those. things might be permitting annexation of some or all. >> of the. >> west bank, which is another goal of. you know, hard line right wingers who are key to netanyahu's coalition. >> but that. >> action in particular, and some other things that the. >> israeli right wants and. >> that netanyahu may not want, i think are not necessarily in trump's larger interest. for instance, trump. really wants this normalization agreement where. >> saudi arabia. agrees to. >> establish formal diplomatic relations with israel. it's the kind of thing that trump can tout as a big middle east peace deal, and say that he's worthy of getting a nobel prize, but i don't see. the saudi crown prince, mohammed bin bin salman, being prepared to being prepared

to do that deal if. israel is. is annexing parts of the west bank. >> and so there's more daylight between these two. >> leaders than i think is widely assumed. >> so the. >> question is, how are they going to find those areas of agreement? and when they have this appearance together. >> we'll be watching. michael crowley, john brennan, david jolly, thank you all for spending time with us today. quick break for us. we'll be right back. >> i wish my tv provider let me choose what i pay for. >> sling lets. >> you do that. i wish my tv provider let me choose what i pay for and let me pause. my subscription. >> when i want. let you do that? >> yeah, i wish. >> my tv provider let. me choose what i. >> pay for and let me pause. >> my subscription when. >> i want and have hundreds of free channels. >> sling let you. >> do that too. >> name it craig here pays too much for business wireless. so he sublet half his real estate office... to a pet shop. there's a smarter way to save.

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