how many thankfully a company here were nazi international this wednesday went back at the top of the wicket more today. ah ah, ah ah . hello and welcome to cross hawk where all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle. mr. barton goes to kim, the west president's unannounced trip can be interpreted in a number of ways. is one of them, an active desperation to keep washington's coalition of the willing together. just before the anticipated russian offensive, we will soon find out from

sucking ukraine, i'm joined by my guest, carlin nixon in washington. he's a political analyst in new york. we have let me goldstein, he's the chair of the department of slavic studies at brown university. and in south and we cross a michael dash he is the pack e j. d professor of international relations at the university of notre dame. all right, dental and cross hoc rolls in effect. that means you can jump any time you want. and i always appreciate vladimir, let me go to you. breaking news here am a short time ago vladimir putin addressing the nation announced that russia would be suspending negotiations for the start to treaty, which i think in total. now that is the end of arms control of the soviet union slash russia had with the west. arms control essentially is dead. i seriously doubt, negotiations will return before the 2026 expiration date. this is

a major decoupling that he coupling is done. would you say so vladimir? yes, i think russia kept on sending the same message to united states and the nature that dawned escalade by a frozen dead, the ears. so russia go through one action or the action in and they soon or later have to realize it in our indeed, you know, all this talk about nuclear war is and not just store, eat, can result, you know, the date. and by the next year, it was read it in key of odds and ends. he said, if china and to the fray, it means a 3rd world war. so in other words, this is like a important escalation and fusion sends a message, a very clear message boss with the mr. origins and the foreign audience that these, this years and will do the best we can do to protect our conte, which includes you know, stop talking to the people who do not listen to us. exactly. michael and south. and

if i go to you now, i me going back to this be coupling issue. here. we have a battle of narratives. putin is already given his address shortly. joe biden, in more so i will give his address. i suppose it will be pretty much a repetition of what he said last time. he was there very up outside of possible gas, which we can always expect here. but michael, that me, this really is a battle of narratives. it says a decoupling the that the red lines have been drawn here and russia continues to show that it will react to what to west is doing. and it has to do it out of self interest obviously. but it's very serious and it's getting pretty scary. i would say, michael, yeah, no, i agree. although i think the pulling out of the start process is more symbolic than real in terms of its impact. i think the bigger thing that may be happening, in fact,

is the decision of the chinese to be more supportive of the yeah. russians on in this war. so there is the real decoupling. ah, is it, you know, if china becomes a, you know, throws it's lottie and even more fully with the russians that will harden the battle lines in a big way to other things. one is the question, of course, of really how solid the atlantic community front is on maintaining the war. i think that's an open question at the elephant in the room though is the global south, which has not bought into the western narrative in terms of who's at fault and how this thing needs to be brought to an end. so there are, there are a lot of deep divisions um and they seem to be hard neg, for,

i absolutely agree with the garland that i think that exists the exact reason why biden went to care of her, his very short visit. i mean, it was kind of across between a fundraising campaign and cheerleading. i'll keep trying to keep his coalition together, which is, is, is fraying at the, at this, at the, at the end because the, the cost of this conflict to europe see europe is the one that's being crushed the most. they're obviously outside of the of ukraine here, and biden has to keep his flock in order. and so to go and it was a public relations stand to, they cleared it with the russians in advance. but i mean, this is biden's war and it's he thrown everything into it. that's what makes it so dangerous because these neil consider directing him there, uncompromising. and at the same time rush is not going to compromise its security. this is where we are. garland. yeah, i think it's also a reminder to everyone that of the current conflict and in the current conflict

that nato is now really a bilateral group that is, of the united states and the most extreme elements in the, in europe, which would be, you know, poll in the baltic states, i think that the, again, we say the elephant in the room, the blue whale and the phone booth shall we say, is the north stream attacks by the, basically nato as a whole on germany. so i think and biden has, you know, again, bypass and ignore germany. he can't talk about germany much. now there are major problems and they're concerned as to how that's going to iron out in the long run. but i think the western europe that, you know, we can see some cracked in western europe. we can see some very significant an anti war rallies happening in munich. so i think biden's concerned and he's working with those who are of light, mind, poland, which seemed to be willing to, you know, readily sacrifice the lives and livelihoods of their, of their, of their citizens. for the neo con project. yeah, they,

i'm glad you brought up north stream because latimer, there's it, there's all this talk, you know, it's like on anti war dot com in responsible state craft about how negotiations could start. i don't know where these people are, where their head is blowing up the north stream pipelines here. i mean, how do you negotiate with people like that? i did, i have no idea vladimir. yeah, i think a mentioned near corn is very important. so i think are, you know, there is another term who describes, ah, america, foreign policy is like, woke a imperialist. so it's got a healthy kind of combination. oh, there's neo liberals, while they're walking ano guns with a imperialism. and this is a very powerful group. however, you know, i read an interest in an essay talking about the cy mirage article about north north west. a better do they, the fact that he got this information tells us that there is a split within united united states establishment. somebody in washington is not

happy about this. what, what walk? fire and it's overreach. so i think it's a very important kind of dimension which were mentioned not only within the nato, but even without the united states establishment. because people are smart people and, and are gone and j, they probably understand that this is, you know, this is not in the, in american inches. this is in the interest of this very strange group around stay stay department in biden, you know, hot, cold as supporters. and it has to be stopped. but i, there are forces, i'm sure, normal or regular people who sort of, you know, united states will still believe that the business of america is business and not all. so i think that's less of the one who eventually will, will come to power and russia will negotiate them. i think my colleague has made a couple of very important points by 1st the, i know the pro war party is broader than just the old,

neo conservatives. i don't think i'd call on the i, you know, the other part of it woke imperialists. i think i'd call them liberal imperialists . these are people who are deeply committed to the liberal world order. um and, you know, i, i, i think there's a lot of, you know, sort of the liberal world order that i personally am attracted to. but i think the problem here is that, you know, it creates a series of big blind spots on that really. in my view, explain how we've gotten into this mass or, you know, yesterday, and jake sullivan had sat at one point. i think i'm reflecting on the cause of the war that nato expansion had nothing to do with nato's. a defensive alliance made up of democracies both of which are true. but, you know, i mean,

from the perspective of the other side, you could see how that would also be irrelevant. and so i think when the history of this mass is written in much the same way that the history of the vietnam war was written, years ago, our liberal blindness is gonna be a big factor in how we ended up in the soup here. well, garland ain't talking about the liberal world order. i mean, one of the things that's really come about, it's in stay advent of this conflict is the intense russo phobia. i mean, you know, you have in the pages of foreign affairs and you basically have to break up russia . we have to break it up. i mean, this is where they're coming from. this is where it's all about. and what would make this so pathetic is has nothing to do with ukraine even though the ukrainians are being slaughtered. okay, for a war that nato wanted, the history books will have to explain to me why the ukrainians went along with this in the 1st place. garland, so i'll push back i,

i oppose the concept of the liberal world order for a couple of reasons, not the, not the least of which being, it's a fake. it is equivalent lee, the idea of me walking up saying i'm here to help you in hitting you over the head with a rock and stealing your wallet that a liberal world order is number one. number 2, it also implies a hierarchical cultural order in the world and implies that the liberal order, the liberal way of seeing the world is somehow superior and that other people, traditional cultures, maybe the africans, the middle eastern, goes on cush cultures, et cetera, that they don't have a right to their culture and if they would be better off if they accepted ours. and i think all of those countries are looking at what is happening in the us culture was shocking horror saying we don't want any parts of that. whether we agree or not, i believe that all cultures that rather than a hierarchical culture, that the world should be more like a mosaic where all cultures is, are viewed as part of a, of a, of a mood 0 is mosaic piece of art, which all of you have a darlene wasn't,

wasn't that traditional liberalism that that's what was okay. yeah, right. but i, because it's, you know, i am, i am a died in the wall conservative. i don't want to become a liberal up. okay. and i don't want to be forced to become a liberal. ok they. and this is something that they believe they have to remake the world in their own image. then the image of victoria new and that's a scary thought. or i finally got a gentleman. i got a job in, i gotta go, i gotta go to a short break. and after that short break, we'll continue our discussion on your current state with arcade. ah ah may be able to turn a blind eye to atrocities in other countries the united states of america is different. wearable people long to be free. they will find

a friend in the united states. ah, with you little bit about it, the bolts, anybody, basie? so the city in p jaw, you look at the incentives of each cigarette, a few color revolutions is one among several means to reach the goal of conquering foreign lands and bringing them onto the help of u. s. weston economic interests. people in sadie, i didn't that he did what i grew by the gig lexia learning retreating coral act. so no, we just say low their softball. m a and the final goal of these thing revolutions is to ensure that there are no independent players in the world. anymore

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obama's protective own existence with oh, welcome back to cross back where all things are considered on peter labelle to remind you were discussing ukraine. ah. okay, let's go back to michael and self and did the 1st part of the program in, in a direction. i didn't really expect that. i really like it because i like to talk about the, the, the social and philosophical angles of all of this here. you know, michael, is that this is one of the reasons why the, the, the liberal west, the leaks in the west. they hate russia because russia is a very conservative place. and that's something that they, they, they can't tolerate. and they don't like to have any kind of alternative model. now

you don't have to be a conservative in to appreciate russia. but mean this is something like some of the themes here. what a lot of people don't understand until netflix left the market. a lot of people would watch netflix and kind of an oddity, you know, like, wow, that's what they do in the west. we don't want that here. okay. but you know that that's in there is that now there is a growing rejection of this woke. it's doug culture, that is an i agree with vladimir that's really infiltrated foreign policy. your thoughts, michael? well, i think the fact that a lot of americans believe that rashanda vladimir putin was deeply supportive of donald trump. quite polarized. yeah, but there was, but there's not, there's not, there's no evidence of that, but nonetheless, no, right. but, but nonetheless, a lot of people believe that. and so what it has done is, you know, make, this is made a domestic ideological fight in the united states. and international lives,

and of course, i'm old enough to remember the cold war in when the soviet union was regarded as you know, in the vanguard of the left. and now the irony is, i, you know, for a lot of americans, it's, i or a lot of americans on the left, especially. it's now a force of reaction from the right. so my head is spinning. it's the ames, hey, automatically during my lifetime. yeah. yeah. like think the washington post never had anything bad to say about the soviet union has nothing good to say about russia today. it's in my head is spinning to light a mirror. you know, i guess we're all children of the cold war here, and i knew a lot of great soviet specialists, really, really good historians. they adored russia. that's why they studied the soviet union. they hated communism, but they adored russia and its culture and respected it. here that is another major

change here, and you coming from a letters yourself. that must be astounding for you teaching bill skiwski. go ahead . vladimir. yeah, it's the whole thing is very, very crazy or all this or former from oh, great professor. first of all, a duke, russia, she usually they, they to good with a spare. it was a different sort of, you know, general fish there wednesday or they studied, they admired may be certain, thinks would, would them all, but it was like a unique continent. would you go and the, and, and study and explore, you know, i go to australia and study their animals which don't exist anymore. however, with a collapse of the soviet union, they made a very, if your conclusion that it doesn't matter. you know, let's forget about the say that who cares about a unique, unique flora and fauna? let's. let's what advantage of being bombarded again. i said that to be lucy is kenzie. the only thing they can do is aggression. the only thing they can do is

violence. so let's split them. and now until this mix is like total loonies and paranoid, many acts and borland and bullies who actually support this idea. so basically, rather than sort of a taking things easily, we'll leave in the serious role we're facing. she is issues or a thing, it becomes like know when all the truth as it does matter and, and we are harvested now. what, what, what was so, you know, vladimir, i had, took the occasion a couple of weeks ago to reread, alexander soldier and eat since famous commencement address. i. yes. i which i, i didn't really understand at the time where he was coming from. but from the context of 2023, it makes clear what, you know, the deep fault winds between traditional russia, which had come to represent, at that point even well before the collapse of the soviet union. and, and the,

the liberal, big l liberal west. and i wish i'd been smarter. i think i would be less confused by. yeah, well michael just came up for a came up with a great topic for a future edition of crossfire because that commencement seat speech is absolutely fascinating. and remember, michael, after he made the speech, the liberal west, turned their back on him. remember that? okay. you know, as i say he was, can't, they didn't use the term, but they cancel them after that speech. let me go to garland right now. moving on, garland, you know, the, the, what has happened here, the west is turn this into an existential struggle, which it doesn't, didn't have to be for the west for russia. yes. because of security reasons. and that's what it's all about. nobody in the west wants to talk about security. they want to talk about victory. if you continue to look with the russians, have say, we need to be able to live securely in europe. and you're not allowing that to happen. that's why this conflict and ukraine happened. they still do not want to

talk about it that way. it's existential. but they, but that is a craven choice and it's a self fulfilling prophecy. yeah. now it is turning into it because you made it that way. garland. well, it's existential for their narrative. and since the neocons at the neo liberal p cloud live in the narrative, it seems ex, essential to them for their narrative to die. if, if to die is tantamount to them to them to actually die kind of like when a person in the movie, the matrix dies in the matrix. they die in real life. that's the way they feel about their narrative being threatened. let me add this to i think and is this is important statement i wanted to make. when we talk about conservatism, there's a conservatism, the more a conservatism that is not tied to left in right, per se, and that's tied to tradition and stability. i traveled extensively in south america, unabashed, socialist, marxist, linen, et cetera. but when it comes to conservatism, from a perspective of how they live on a day to day basis, they're much more aligned with, say,

a russia than they are with the united states. why? because they are very much into their tradition in the indigenous people, etc. and they're very much believe in stability. so to say the liberals who the su tradition and who are create chaos and instability, you know, the so you know that they're not there. first of all, i think they're redefining left as cultural issues as opposed your traditional left, which sees viewing the world through the context of the working class. so i think there's a, so there is a difference in definitions of what we mean by conservative values of or addition and stability. i can just savannah, our viewers, all nodding their head in agreeing with you, because i do, and i think the, our, our, our panel that to michael, you're the one that left the global south, which i called the global majority in, during, during the cold war. they did look to the soviet union as a friend,

as an ally because it was anti west anti imperialist. but they still do now mid in and not they, they looked hard to serve you, not because of its communism because they were against oppression of the west. but now we have in the end of the cold war here. now we have the global south again looking to, to a, to russia in the, in the way that got garland just explained to us traditional values. michael instability ability is board. right, sir? yeah, i guess i think it's a, it's a combination of things. certainly, as garland says, i'm, you know, as joseph sham, peter famously said about capitalism. it's a process of creative destruction. i think political liberalism also is a process of creative destruction. and what gets destroyed are often traditional values. and most people are uncomfortable with the destruction of traditional values. so to the extent that russia seems like a, a proponent of

a different way of political and social ordering, it's attractive, i think also though it's balance of bow power politics. if you think that in the united states, in the unipolar moment is, needs to be counter balanced. russia and china are probably 2 of the logical countries that you're going to look to for that counterbalancing. so strikes me as being over determine power and culture. it, well, let me, let's, let's address that here because, um, the ukraine seems to be the epicenter of a, of a new cold war. and this is something again, the neocons around joe biden seemed to be prepared for it in they've been able to cow in capture europe to the point where europe has lost its sovereignty. though they're fighting in ukraine for ukraine sovereignty. i find that really odd. oh,

by the way, that the american southern border is left unguarded. i mean, there's some very peculiar value slotting around here. black vladimir, go ahead. there is unbelievable hypocrisy which way which, which will we fit? you know, i like the concepts are which garland introduces mosaic and united states, which is say they tolerate mosaic in canada. you know, united states is an english speaking country and that's fine. if you can. i didn't want to have a french and english and have their own kind of, you know, or asian is college and go back fine. what's happened in ukraine out of the blue rather than having this mosaic. they have irrational speaking, the east of a culture, the pro ration east. they have it, you know, culture, the proportion a pro western a west and leave it one from keeps. so this is should be grand moralist. continue to exist on the, on the principle of mosaic or the west in 8th or 9th. they decided to use this moment to impose this west ukrainian values. people are very,

very much agricultural, you know, culture upon very industrialized pro, ration east. this is absolutely or is it, they don't do it in belgium, insisted in some particular language. they don't do it in canada. but ukraine was a very interesting, important born of contention where they agreed to throw all their values of respect for other cultures for minorities. just for the sake of driving this, this kind of civility strange message home, keep germany down, keep russia out there in a boot. they will be great as a wedge between russia in europe. and this is the unity which is their. okay, michael, we've got 40 seconds finish it all for us. well, i think the tragedy of the ukraine war is ultimately going to be on that many in the west thought that they were doing the lord's work. but as we know, the road to hell is often paved with good intentions,

and we're certainly seeing the road to hell in ukraine today. yeah is i've often pointed out on this program, the more the west helps ukraine, the more ukrainians die in the smaller the country comes. that that's a great ally to have. it's really truly remarkable. and i have no idea what future historians will make of it. that's all the time we have gentlemen. i want to thank my guests in washington, new york and, and south and, and i want to thank our viewers for watching us here at ortiz. see you next time. remember, cross titles. ah, in the 1950s, the u. s. used former nazis against the soviet union in the 21st century. they engineer dakota,

that fish the former soviet republic into our confrontation with moscow will certainly if the united states and the u. k. and the rest of the western world had not engaged in conflict with the ukraine and with the soviet union and its successor, the russian federation. we would not have the horrible situation we have today. i think that if the american stopped and we would be at peace and the role would be a lot better place and the economy, the world reflection considerably better than is doing now. what are you crazy? yes. or took a lot and i lost most of my friends that did

i was broke and i wasn't able to make them to save anyone. i did nothing that i met wilson 2030 god. what's really in my way, to make me thought talking to willy waiting for me in the heaven. i'm happy that i me find is really little john, you can see my mother. he become my new friend. the one was love gonna die or because he is. i would stay alive. it was they next to me. if i'm not crazy enough. i'm not going to make it.

aah! corporation has never been aimed at any 3rd party. but we never allow any 3rd party to dictate to us what to do with cooperation between china and russia. as we said more than once, is very important in stabilizing the international situation. china, top diplomat on flat of a pin and meet in moscow to discuss ways to strengthen by lateral cooperation with the visits a temporary refugee camp. and they don't use republican think supposed to have been evacuated from the front lines in our term. all they told us to write our initials on our hands with the red marker because they were going to bury us there. the ukrainians dug a trench right in front of.