when he took over he promised to knock shakespeare off his pedestal. his sense of what he calls the duty to experiment has turned the company around and won him critical acclaim. he will step down from his post in 2012. i'm very pleased to have him back to talk about the complexity, the allenges and the genius of william shakespeare, all part of our series "why shakespeare?" welcome back. >> lovely be here. >> rose: since you were here you've announced you ear leaving. >> yup. it will be ten yearsext year and, of course, i thought about whether to go for a third term as it were and i felt like i would spend time in a rehearsal roomith no queue behind the door. and it's time to hand it over to someone else. there's a great bunch of brit irk directors comin through. >> rose: well, there's a list of people, kenneth branagh and michael grandage. there a good people willing to step in. >> there are good people, colleagues of mine, there's a terrific field and somereally good women dirtors as well. >> rose: when you look back there's a chance for you to sort

every time there is a chip on that pedestal, every time i step -- he stepped off that pedestal, i realized much he was like him -- i was like him and he was like me. charlie: you read smiley's book. anthony: i did. charlie: how did that influence you? mr. mackie: it shows the nature in which he was a facilitator for the black community into the white community, and the white community into the black community. i think the one thing this movie shows that you never really see is dr. king with his core group of advisers, leaders, and friends, and that frustration between stokely and ralph abernathy and all those guys, and dr. king having to moderate that, and then going into the world of lbj and having to moderate that. charlie: knowing hoover was after him. anthony: exactly. and he was a phenomenal politician. he played on both sides of the coin. that is why he and lbj got along so well. it was ali frazier. it was a mutual respect. charlie: here is dr. king speaking to a group of protesters about the importance of civil rights. [video clip] >> but the government cannot legislate what people

>> once it got off the pedestal, yes. >> rose: absolutely. we know when it got off the pedestal. but that was the defining moment for you, getting it off the pedestal. >> yes. >> rose: you saw your future intoer in that moment. >> i don't know about my future. that's a little pretentious. >> rose: okay. and we wouldn't want to be pretentious. you saw your... >> possibilities. >> rose: where you wanted to go. >> yes. >> rose: you saw your exploration. >> i thought once the object dissolved into the field it was wide open. >> rose: you could do more, feel more, experience more, have more. >> not me, everyone else. >> rose: no, no, the art. >> yes. >> rose: okay. what was this thing about you and a child and... what was it... butcher paper? >> paper was expensive, it was right after the war and they used to wrap the meat in this pink butcher paper. >> rose: right. >> and. .. >> rose: where are we? >> we here in san francisco and i'm five or six years old and we lived in the sand dunes and next to us was a family and recently a stoptor told his brother henry that richard has had beco

and i see every time theres with a chip on that pedestal, every time he stepped off that pedestal, i realized how much i was like him and how much he was like me. >> rose: you read tavis smiley's book. >> i did. >> rose: how did that inform you? called death of a king. >> death of a king. it is a wonderful depiction of the final 365 days of dr. king's life. and it shows one, his-- the nature in which he was a facilitator for the black community into the white community and the white community into the black community. i think the one thing this movie shows that you never really see is, you know, the doctor king with his core group of advertisers, leaders and friends. and that frustration between stoakly and ralph abernathy an all those guys. and dr. king having to moderate that and then going to the world of lb swrrks and have to moderate that. >> rose: knowing that j edgar hoover was after him and all that. >> knowing he was after him. and he was just a phenomenal politician. i don't think nufer people give him respect for the politician he was. he played on both sides of the coin.

to get across that message, such a pedestal. many men thought they were spared to earn a living.t is a myth. and to get them to see what they regarded as favors and the wonderful expression that justin brennan used, the pedestal turned out to be a cage and confined women. to get the court to understand that there really was gender-based discrimination, that was a challenging job. >> i was just going to say as groundbreaking as your work as a litigator was and notorious r.b.g. will live on a lot longer. [cheers and applause] [laughter] >> what do you think of that? >> it is a absolutely amazing. and for an 83-year-old woman should be notorious. [laughter] >> i understand where it comes from, that's the one thing. rapper, -- the famous the notorious b.i.g., he and i were both lord in the same place in brooklyn. the nyun that, i think theents dreamed up notoriousrpg -- the r.b.g. it started with my dissent in the shelby county case and and that was the beginning laugh laugh charlie: you are a role model for many people, how do you see that? and you have spoken about supreme court mi

to get across that message, there was this pedestal that many men thought women were on, they were sparednecessity to earn a living. that was a myth. it was never true for poor women. to get them to see that what they regarded as favors, and the wonderful expression justice brennan used, the pedestal turned out to be a cage because it can find women -- confined women and limited what they could do. to get the court to understand there was discrimination, that was a challenging job. justice sotomayor: i was just going to say, as groundbreaking as your work as a litigator was, the notorious rbg will live on a lot longer. [laughter] [applause] charlie: what do you think of that? justice ginsburg: i think it is absolutely amazing. [laughter] justice ginsberg: an 83-year-old woman should be notorious. [laughter] justice ginsberg: but i understand where it comes from. you know the famous rapper, notorious b.i.g. he and i were both born and bred in brooklyn. [laughter] [applause] justice ginsberg: more than that, i think that the nyu students who dreamed up this notorious rbg, it started with my

that whatm to see they regarded as favors, and the wonderful expression justice brennan used, the pedestalurned out to be a cage because it can find women -- confined women and limited what they could do. to get the court to understand there was discrimination, that was a challenging job. justice sotomayor: i was just as groundbreaking as your work as a litigator was, will live on abg lot longer. [laughter] [applause] what do you think of that? justice ginsburg: i think it is absolutely amazing. be83-year-old woman should notorious. but i understand where it comes from. famous rapper, notorious b.i.g.. both born and bred in brooklyn. [applause] nyu' think that the students who dreamed up this bg, it started with the decision that took the heart out of the voting rights act of 1965. she was angry. then she thought that is not a productive emotion. i want to do something positive. in thek my dissent shelby county case and that was notoriousing of the rbg. charlie: you are a role model to many. had you see that? veryupreme court may be , to see howo have well a latina woman sees this world. j

to see that what they regarded as favors, and the wonderful expression that justice brennan the pedestal more often than not, turned out to be a cage because it confined women and limited what they could do. understandcourt to that there really was gender-based discrimination, that was a challenging job. justice sotomayor: i was just groundbreakings as your work as a litigator was, i think the notorious rbg will live on a lot longer. [laughter] [applause] and what do you think of that? justice ginsburg: i think it's absolutely amazing. [laughter] that an 83-year-old woman should be notorious. [laughter] justice ginsburg: that i have said, i understand where it comes from. you know the famous rapper, notorious b.i.g. we were both born and bred in brooklyn. [applause] justice ginsburg: but more than that, i think that the nyu students who dreamed up this notorious rbg, it started with my dissenting decision that took the heart out of the voting rights act of 1965. she was angry. then she thought that is not a productive emotion. i want to do something positive. so, she took my dissent in t

to get across that message that this pedestal that many men thought women were on, and they were spared the necessity to earn a living, that was a myth because it was never true for poor women. to get them to see 245 what they regarded as favors in the wonderful ex,, expression that justin brennan used, the pedestal much more often than not turned out to be a cage that confined women and limited what they could do. so to get the court to understand that there really was gender-based dises krim nation, that was a challenging-- a challengeing job. >> i was just going to say, i have the sense of ground breaking as your work as a litigator was, i think notorious-- notorious rbg go live on a lot longer. (applause). >> rose: and what do you think of that? >> what? i think it's absolutely amazing. that at 83 year old woman should be-- . >> rose: notorious. >> but have i said, i understand where it comes from. you know the famous rapper notorious big. >> rose: yes. >> well, he and i were both born in brooklyn. so we have that in common. and more than that, i think that the nyu student who dream

to get across that message that this pedestal that many men thought women were on, they were spared the necessity to earn a living, that was a pit because it was never true, for poor women, to get them to see that what they regarded as favors in the in the wonderful expression that justice brennan used, the pedestal much more often than not turned out to be a cage, cuz it confined women, and limited what they could do. so to get the court to understand that there really was gender based discrimination, that was a challengeing job. >> i was just going to say, as ground breaking as your work as a litigator was i think notorious big will live on a lot longer. >> rose: and what do you think of that. >> i think it is amazing that an 83 year old woman should be notorious. >> but i have said i understand where it comes from, you know the famous rapper, not orious big, well, he and i were both born an bread in brooklyn, so we have that in common. but more than that, i think that the nyu student who dreamed up the notorious rbg started with my decision in shelby county gave, the decision that to

"there's a danger that shakespeare on his pedestal is throwing everybody else too far into the shade for us to consider them viable." you. >> you see, shakespeare didn't spring fully formed like athee that from the brow of suisse. he came out of a school of writers, a stable of writers, a bit like the hollywood stable of writers in the 1930s. shakespeare was collaborating probably more than we know of more. and i guess what's happened is zeus we've put shakespeare so high on his pedestal that we forget all those other writers, the christopher marlowe and john webster. those are great writers, too. and it's important that we see shakespeare in context and i think a company that the royal shakespeare company in stratford is very, very well placed to do. >> if it be you that stirs these daughters' hearts against their father fool me not so much, touch me with noble anger and they're not women's weapons, water drops stain a man's cheeks. you unnatural hags! >> rose: on balance is he an interesting noon you? >> he is a fascinating noon me. >> rose: not in terms of what he wrote but just i

. >> i mean, we talk about -- i mean, we had her on a pedestal, all of us, we put her on a pedestal,ah, what beyonce said, she is the queen. i mean, $e was -- she justbrought everyo the stage, and she, man she wrapped you up in it and that is a responsibility. you come out there on that stage, and everyone wants what they want. >> yes. and i mean, in a lot of the interviews, in the interviews she did, she would say, i really want to be normal, i want to have a normal life. >> yeah. >> and that was not an option for her. >> not forthcoming. >> she was too gifted, too famous. >> oh, yeah. >> she was too talented. >> there was nowhere she could go but the stage for that kind of love and acceptance and it is a sad day. >> rose: how much of this talent is born? and how much of it -- i mean, i am trying to get away are the straight nurture versus nature kind of thing but this is a gift. >> it is a gift. i mean, it is dna. >> rose: yes. >> i mean you have to have the vocal cords and you have to have the structure and you have to have those lungs and then you have to really, really work at i

and with his imperfections. >> rose: and how hard it is to be... >> ...put on this pedestal. absolutely. >> rose: thers a scenein the room where he's looking for bugs knowing j. ear hoover s looking for him. >> the f.b.i. always... there's that story that's been circulated of the f.b.i. like getting together and... some say it's a false but it's supposedly a tape of him with him having relations with a woman and that tape w supposedly sent to mrs. king and some people say it's a lie but it was really the f.b.i. really taunting him and that led to a lot of his depression and stress that was put on that i mean wear tick late in the play visually. >> rose: is there literary license here in which it's something you think there is a truth beyond the facts that did not, in fact, happen? >> um... >> rose: other than the relationship to conversation here? >> it's highly fictionalized. this did not happen. >> there are nuggets in there that are true. for instance, there was a biographer for coretta scott king who came the other night that you met. and she said she was so eited that t