>> the lowest person on the totem pole for a campaign for bill ruckleshouse for the senate in our home state. he went on to renown in the nixon administration, and resigned in the saturday night massacre. >> you worked for him when he was the first head of the epa? >> no, just when he ran for office. i finished school and fell in with the boy-mayor of indianapolis, dick lugar, our distinguished senator. he was an idealistic and very active young mayor at a time when cities were at the forefront of american consciousness. he was making great transformations in my home town. i went to work for him a couple of summers, and he talked me into sticking around for a little while, namely 13 years. >> you just turned 60. how old were you when you started working for him? >> 20. >> and then what? after you worked for him as mayor, what was next? >> he got elected to the senate. he asked me to come along, and i did. i spent the next eight years organizing his affairs here. >> working for him in the senate? >> that is right. >> what did you learn about this business what you were in the senate? >>