if you look at -- i mean, steve biddle said in a draft of a novel he's writing on a recent experienceand in afghanistan for example, i think that you can still see that aversion to casualties applied -- it's still there, still present, which is a as poa counterinsurgency campaign when you have to a lot of risk to know the population. you've got to be watching your beak and some convoys, you know, moving on to bask in a standard as well. some troops to this well, some commanders to above, some day you may need to be on the street in your leather personnel carriers. other commanders don't understand this very well. in iraq, which you had in tom alluded to this than i thought this was very perceptive, he talked about the need to push petraeus leiby vision down the throats of the military. this is something i was talking and said tell me about odierno, what do you think? a great genius as he shows throat of general petraeus or the vision of general petraeus down the one stars. whether or not general mcchrystal is going to be a lot to do that in the coalition fight and able to do general r