the woman i'm talking about is faye honey knox whose daughter told me the other day that her mother worked with the same group of survivors of hiroshima that uri introduced to malcolm x. it's really interesting, you know, all of these -- knopp. >> oh, like knopp. >> yes. not like alfred. [laughter] well, the point that i want to make is that she came to the conclusion after doing all of this work on prison abolition that the only way she would and the whole movement would be able l to move in a progressive direction would be to demonstrate that it was possible to address some of the horrendous problems that imprisonment presumes to address. so she started to work with child sex abusers. >> child -- >> sex abusers. >> oh, yes. yeah. >> and she spent the rest of her life, you know, working with these mostly men who had sexual abused -- sexually abused children because she felt she had to answer the hardest question. and she also felt that if we continue to be incapable of confronting those horrendous acts of violence that human beings inflict on each other, that it would never be possible to