thinktice breyer, i don't flast is gone at all when there is direct government outlays to spend on religion like flast. >> no, but there needn't be, because all you have to do to get around it is to create what we have here. >> well, i do think that that can get around it, that can get around it in some circumstances, and again, those who are underincluded in a government program may have standing, not as a taxpayer. but at the end of the day, justice breyer, if that's the result, that's the result for every other clause in the constitution. taxpayer standing is the most narrow of exceptions, and -- >> but there is a plaintiff -- we have a bill of rights and most provisions have plaintiffs who are hurting, whose speech is being suppressed, but this one doesn't have. it's in the constitution like all the others, and i thought, to be candid, that that's what the problem was in flast v. cohen, and that's what the court was responding to. >> i don't see that in flast, justice ginsburg, but be that as it may, i think this court in valley forge was very clear to say that if, at the end of the day