i very much agree with carol swain's practical approach to immigration. the majority of the american public do as well as residents of massachusetts. they don't feel the immigration laws are being adequately enforced. they feel they are taking jobs away from american workers. >> your question? >> the question is in your boston review article you said the crux of your argument is social membership does not depend on official permission. but isn't there a moral case to be made that the majority of people in a society don't feel illegal aliens are a social members of that society and there is a moral basis than for excluding them? >> i am sure you are right. more people agree with you that with me. i am trying to persuade them otherwise. maybe i will have some block. the problem with the argument you just made about democratic legitimacy because the law should a majority say who belongs? the exclusion of african-americans from citizenship certainly has the support of the majority of white americans in our history and we don't think that was acceptably. the e

he presents his argument in a discussion with carol swain, political science and law professor at vanderbilt university, and jennifer hochschild, government and african-american studies professor at harvard university. the event is hosted by the massachusetts institute of technology in cambridge, massachusetts. it's an hour and 20 minutes. >> happy to serve as the moderator for what proms to be really -- promises to be really a provocative and informative talk and discussion. our lead speaker today is joseph carens. he is professor of political science at the university of toronto. his book, "culture, citizenship and community: a contextual look at justice and even handedness," won the c.b. pearson award. his research interest focuses on questions about justice, equality and freedom in the democratic communities. he is particularly interested in the issues raised by the movement of people across borders and by ethnic and cultural diversity in all of its forms. his book was published last month by mit press and will be available for sale after the panel, and it's right behind us. so professor