>> well, not exactlyecause we are buying these securities on the secondary market so somebody's already lent the money directly but yes, we are holding government debt. >> my point exactly. section 14 of the federal reserve act legally pvents you from -- this woulday from buying newly issued securities which in a more layman's term would be lending directly to the u.s. government. >> that's why we're not doing that. >> right. instead, what you do is others lend to the u.s. government and then you buy tir loans. >> we do that all the time. even in most normal conditions. >> correct. in modern times, the fed has always held treasury securities as part of normal operations but now under qe-2 it's a $600 billion commitment. but the crs goes on to say the effect of the fed's purchase of treasury securities on federal budget is similar to monetization, whether the fed buys securities on the secondary market or directly from treasury. when the fed holds treasury securities, treasury must pay interest to the fed as it would to any private investor. these interest payments after expenses become