carroll of carrollton. they used to play cards together. and, but, again, john mctavish was not of charles carroll's ilk. so i think in that way charles carroll provided security and protection for the sisters, and they searched for that in their husbands. but in a way it was the other way around, they were providing that security for them. >> i thought it was interesting that i think if i'm correct what really got you on to their story was looking at women engaged in business in the early 19th century. can you say something about what got you started on this journey to learn about the catons, and what -- how did they involve themselves in business in ways that were very unusual for women at the time? >> they were, they were very much as this talk is called, ladies ahead of their time in that respect. i came to write the book not because i knew anything about the caton sisters or, indeed, that they were even american. i came to write it because i was asked by bbc radio to look into the question of how involved or whether women in the 19th century even knew anything about the world of finance. and i went