of those sexual magazines were dirtier, if i might use that word, sort of portraying women, um, as wanton, as maybe whores. and that was something that hugh hefner really deliberately tried to stay away from. so i situated playboy as part of the sexualization of american popular culture rather or than a part of that pornographic fringe, and i think that's something that hugh hefner was really, you know, he was trying to put himself in that category as well. really more in line with the way "esquire magazine" was in the '30s and '40s. >> yeah. and you talk about how hugh kind of looked up to esquire in aceps or sort of looked at them as something of a model might be too strong a word, but he definitely took some cues from them, it sounded like. >> be i think he did look at them as a model, i think he was copying because he was a real gap of that as he was growing up -- a real fan of that as he was growing up. he was disappointed in the way in which esquire by the early '50s had let go of some of its sexual emphasis that had made it popular in the '30s and '40s, so he wanted to redo that in