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Jun 16, 2011
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in the least surprising twist in this saga thus far, gloria allred is now involved in this one. ike gloria to try to profit by inserting herself into a media frenzy, but this time, she's making an exception. she's representing a woman named ginger lee, who is a former porn star, current stripper, who claims congressman weiner sent her inappropriate messages online. what part of being a porn star got text messages from anthony weiner requires a lawyer? i don't know. but allred said ginger wanted to hold a press conference today so she could clear up rumors about her and resume her career as a feature dancer. in other words, can we please get past this so i can get maked for money again? thank you. but after congressman weiner accidentally tweeted that picture of his crotch, he reportedly called ginger, who, for some insane reason, he was following on twitter, to coach her on how to deal with the media attention she was about to get. and at the press conference, gloria allred detailed that private conversation, and in doing so, provided us with our unintentional joke of the day. >>
in the least surprising twist in this saga thus far, gloria allred is now involved in this one. ike gloria to try to profit by inserting herself into a media frenzy, but this time, she's making an exception. she's representing a woman named ginger lee, who is a former porn star, current stripper, who claims congressman weiner sent her inappropriate messages online. what part of being a porn star got text messages from anthony weiner requires a lawyer? i don't know. but allred said ginger wanted...
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Jun 15, 2011
06/11
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ginger lee held a news conference with her attorney gloria allred last hour. mar?s what were some of the highlights of what ginger lee had to say? >> well, randi, there were a lot of communications. and she said that he had asked her to lie about their communication and that he had helped her with a statement that she had released to the press. according to her attorney, they started communicating back in march. and, apparently, they say there was only one phone call in between that time. and that was on june 2nd. she came out with -- just reading the statement, would not answer any questions. and, randi, a little bit of a mystery, also, about why now, and why does she have an attorney, the celebrity lawyer, gloria allred. she said that she felt it was time to break her silence. she also said that she had been in touch with an attorney because she had had been threatened. she didn't really elaborate on that. but she said that someone had come forward and was going to o issue an of her reasoning for hiring an attorney. >> mary, di do have a couple moe questions for
ginger lee held a news conference with her attorney gloria allred last hour. mar?s what were some of the highlights of what ginger lee had to say? >> well, randi, there were a lot of communications. and she said that he had asked her to lie about their communication and that he had helped her with a statement that she had released to the press. according to her attorney, they started communicating back in march. and, apparently, they say there was only one phone call in between that time....
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Jun 8, 2011
06/11
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so johnson hired attorney gloria allred to file a discrimination complaint. this afternoon, the department changed course, saying its policy is outdated and requires careful revision. california's top insurer is making an about-face. blue shiled of california is planning to cap profits and refund millions. the company's ceo today said it will limit it's annual income to two percent. he also promised anything over that two percent will go back to policy holders. consumer advicates are skeptical though, saying the bill's timing is odd. just last month, the department of insurance forced blue shield to reveal executive salariesâ totaling 14 million dollars. and they're worried about how the two percent profit cap is calculated: julie watts "does that include what you put into you reserves using to upgrade your computer system, is that considered profit or is that considered operating cost" bruce bodaken / ceo, blue shield: "it's a very simple calculation what ever revenue that comes in the door minus all of our expenses." expenses that include reserves, taxes, a
so johnson hired attorney gloria allred to file a discrimination complaint. this afternoon, the department changed course, saying its policy is outdated and requires careful revision. california's top insurer is making an about-face. blue shiled of california is planning to cap profits and refund millions. the company's ceo today said it will limit it's annual income to two percent. he also promised anything over that two percent will go back to policy holders. consumer advicates are skeptical...
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Jun 15, 2011
06/11
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he said to lie about their online communication as she appeared with gloria allred in new york. they had hundred e-mails between them and she gave a supportive statement on her blog. they mostly discussed politics but weiner would turn the conversation to sex at which point the former porn actress she would draw the line. >> we did communicate on a fairly regular basis, however, i did not sect anthony weiner. i did not send photos to him. any time he would take communications in a sexual direction i did not reciprocate. >> last week he admitted he did send pictures partially naked to several women. he checked himself into a treatment center. his pregnant wife arrived in washington late last night with her boss, hillary clinton. weiner has been waiting for his wife to come back before making a decision on his political future. they have pressured him to resign and house democrats are hoping he'll resign this week and put an end to all of this. >>> still ahead, going public. a popular oakland based radio service that never made a profit. >> two women who share a special bond hope
he said to lie about their online communication as she appeared with gloria allred in new york. they had hundred e-mails between them and she gave a supportive statement on her blog. they mostly discussed politics but weiner would turn the conversation to sex at which point the former porn actress she would draw the line. >> we did communicate on a fairly regular basis, however, i did not sect anthony weiner. i did not send photos to him. any time he would take communications in a sexual...
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Jun 15, 2011
06/11
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KGO
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he said to lie about their online communication as she appeared with gloria allred in new york. they had hundred e-mails between them and she gave a supportive statement on her blog. they mostly discussed politics but weiner would turn the conversation to sex at which point the former porn actress she would draw the line. >> we did communicate on a fairly regular basis, however, i did not sect anthony weiner. i did not send photos to him. any time he would take communications in a sexual direction i did not reciprocate. >> last week he admitted he did send pictures partially naked to several women. he checked himself into a treatment center. his pregnant wife arrived in washington late last night with her boss, hillary clinton. weiner has been waiting for his wife to come back before making a decision on his political future. they have pressured him to resign and house democrats are hoping he'll resign this week and put an end to all of this. >>> still ahead, going public. a popular oakland based radio service that never made a profit. >> two women who share a special bond hope
he said to lie about their online communication as she appeared with gloria allred in new york. they had hundred e-mails between them and she gave a supportive statement on her blog. they mostly discussed politics but weiner would turn the conversation to sex at which point the former porn actress she would draw the line. >> we did communicate on a fairly regular basis, however, i did not sect anthony weiner. i did not send photos to him. any time he would take communications in a sexual...
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Jun 15, 2011
06/11
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gloria allred is bring out her client.came renowned. >> we will be making at a statement that after the we will take some questions mislabel not take any questions. we are here today because gingerly decided to break her sons. correct misconceptions of their communication mr. lee has been a feature with cancer for 5 1/2 years. in addition to dancing and she is studying to be a real estate agent in the patchy has appeared an adult films. she is single ms. lee is very interested in potter 6. she began to follow congress and wiener because he was a supporter of plant appear would. in march of 2011 she sent him of positive statement on her block, he responded by a twitter and later by e-mail although discussions at first or about politics, some times he would try to take at another level mentioning his " package on ". she didn't want to go there or that have that type of conversation. his e-mail swearers continuous until about two weeks ago. he was aware of that twitter sex scandal might appear. even with this awareness he con
gloria allred is bring out her client.came renowned. >> we will be making at a statement that after the we will take some questions mislabel not take any questions. we are here today because gingerly decided to break her sons. correct misconceptions of their communication mr. lee has been a feature with cancer for 5 1/2 years. in addition to dancing and she is studying to be a real estate agent in the patchy has appeared an adult films. she is single ms. lee is very interested in potter...
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Jun 16, 2011
06/11
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she's a former porn star, now stripper and she's involved, famed attorney gloria allred who was by her side yesterday. she said that anthony weiner coached her and told her to lie about the online exchange they'd be having since march. she said she started following on twitter because she was interested in health care, planned parenthood and wrote something on her blog about them. now after the scandal broke, lee claims she reached out to him for advice, on what to do. >> he asked me to lie about our communication. i put out a three-sentence communication that he told me to say. i knew i couldn't lie for him. but i didn't want to be the one that kicked him under the bus. >> now she went on to say that weiner should resign. we did reach out to weiner's office for a response to the allegation. why she has a lawyer, why she went public at this time, still a big question. allred said she felt she needed to break her silence, to get on with her life, get back to work. lee said she contacted with allred, after she received threats. someone threatened to release a statement she didn't authori
she's a former porn star, now stripper and she's involved, famed attorney gloria allred who was by her side yesterday. she said that anthony weiner coached her and told her to lie about the online exchange they'd be having since march. she said she started following on twitter because she was interested in health care, planned parenthood and wrote something on her blog about them. now after the scandal broke, lee claims she reached out to him for advice, on what to do. >> he asked me to...
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Jun 16, 2011
06/11
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. >> that woman, ginger lee, afternooned with attorney gloria allred yesterday.ee says she and the congressman did have online exchanges and that he asked her to lie about them. she says she did. weiner has admitted to sending explicit messages and photos to women and then lying about it. >>> and we move along here. 4:50. >>> markets around the world are feeling the effects of growing debt problems in greece. asia markets are down sharply today. yesterday the dow lost all of tuesday's big gains. and this morning futures are down once again about 30 points. greece's prime minister plans to form a new cabinet today as part of his effort to pass a fresh round of drastic spending cuts and tax hikes to try to fix things in greece. >>> prince harry will be reporting for duty in afghanistan sometime next year but officials are taking steps to make sure you don't hear about it because a media leak cut short his first tour of duty in a combat zone. the prince has made it clear, he doesn't want his chopper pilot training to go to waste. military and palace officials will n
. >> that woman, ginger lee, afternooned with attorney gloria allred yesterday.ee says she and the congressman did have online exchanges and that he asked her to lie about them. she says she did. weiner has admitted to sending explicit messages and photos to women and then lying about it. >>> and we move along here. 4:50. >>> markets around the world are feeling the effects of growing debt problems in greece. asia markets are down sharply today. yesterday the dow lost...
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Jun 16, 2011
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we had an ex-porn star go out in front of the microphones with gloria allred, and when gloria allred next woman involved in a sex scandal, you know that you are in trouble. and it's one thing to have that one picture go out on twitter a few weeks ago and kind of raise the eyebroeyebrows, but it kept building. he was so insistent that he was going to stay in office. there was a remote possibility that he probably could have stayed in office if there was only that one picture, but look where we are now, suzanne. >> thank you very much. we appreciate you following all the details there, and we will look at 2:00 eastern, for congress weiner's statement of resignation. we want to go to kate bolduan who is on the hill. we understand there is more congressional reaction before he steps down? >> yeah, they are getting the news that he is going to step down. i was able to speak just a short time ago with a fellow new yorker, fellow congressman, peter king. he has known anthony weiner for a long time and he acknowledged they did not always have the best relationship but have always been able t
we had an ex-porn star go out in front of the microphones with gloria allred, and when gloria allred next woman involved in a sex scandal, you know that you are in trouble. and it's one thing to have that one picture go out on twitter a few weeks ago and kind of raise the eyebroeyebrows, but it kept building. he was so insistent that he was going to stay in office. there was a remote possibility that he probably could have stayed in office if there was only that one picture, but look where we...
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Jun 13, 2011
06/11
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he hired attorney gloria allred who filed a complaint. >> we received the news not not only would officer johnson be allowed to march in uniform proudly in today's parade but that, in addition, the policy would be reviewed for the future. >> proud to be a correctional officer and proud to be here marching with other law enforcement agencies. >> hundreds of thousands of people attended today's parade. it was the 41st year of the event. >>> a neighboring world leader was the honored speaker at stanford university's commencement ceremony. 25- th people at stanford's football stadium in palo alto. highl mexican president philippe calderon spoke for almost 20 minutes in front of 25,000 people at stanford's football stadium in palo al to. highlights of his speech created a need to create a more cooperative global economy and to be more environmentally conscious. 5,000 people attended the commencement. >>> sci-fi versus superheroes. the super new film about the reigning champion x men in the box office, which one came out on top? lifted >>> well are you ready for some summer-like weather? it's o
he hired attorney gloria allred who filed a complaint. >> we received the news not not only would officer johnson be allowed to march in uniform proudly in today's parade but that, in addition, the policy would be reviewed for the future. >> proud to be a correctional officer and proud to be here marching with other law enforcement agencies. >> hundreds of thousands of people attended today's parade. it was the 41st year of the event. >>> a neighboring world leader...
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Jun 15, 2011
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. >> ginger lee appeared with gloria allred. lee said she began internet conversations over politics but wiener kept trying to talk about sex. when the scandal broke, she said he asked her to lie about their relationship. weiner is on a two-week leave of absence, seeking treatment, and is waiting to talk to his wife as pressure mounts for his resignation. she reportedly returned home from an overseas trip with her boss, secretaryover state hillary clinton. >>> the richmond memorial auditorium opened to con that costa county's homeless. the coalition agency and other groups had the clean slate clinic for many services many people take for granted like haircuts and meals. one man is happy to make the transition from wild man to clean-cut. >> it have been homeless for six years now so i think this is a great thing for the people to boost their morale. >> organizers tell us their goal is to put as many services as possible under one roof. bay area hospitals are providing medical and dental checkups. counselors are on hand to help wi
. >> ginger lee appeared with gloria allred. lee said she began internet conversations over politics but wiener kept trying to talk about sex. when the scandal broke, she said he asked her to lie about their relationship. weiner is on a two-week leave of absence, seeking treatment, and is waiting to talk to his wife as pressure mounts for his resignation. she reportedly returned home from an overseas trip with her boss, secretaryover state hillary clinton. >>> the richmond...
SFGTV2: San Francisco Government Television
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Jun 16, 2011
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drinking game, you know, who wants to take bets of when we're going to have the first appearance of gloria allred? it's inevitable. i'm getting off the point a little bit here. but at some point i think it was around the time of the o.j. case where you had this confluence of a big public figure, it was a juicy trial, and cable news was just becoming a force. it changed the environment in which we operate, at least criminal system operates. because it's not just cases anymore, it's entertainment. it's a whole media frenzy on big cases. and i don't think that's a very good thing, but that is the environment in which we operate. and lawyers have to deal with that now. >> a very good point. we have some questions from the audience. i'm going to ask the first one for paulette. in taking tony's essence, who he is as a trial lawyer, how does you tell that story in the book? paulette's book is for sale in the lobby and also at green arcade books here in san francisco. how did you do that? you used your art, obviously, and you used writings. but how did you tell that story? what was your hook? >> well, i
drinking game, you know, who wants to take bets of when we're going to have the first appearance of gloria allred? it's inevitable. i'm getting off the point a little bit here. but at some point i think it was around the time of the o.j. case where you had this confluence of a big public figure, it was a juicy trial, and cable news was just becoming a force. it changed the environment in which we operate, at least criminal system operates. because it's not just cases anymore, it's...
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Jun 16, 2011
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. >> the woman ginger lee appeared with attorney gloria allred today. lee says she and the congressman did have online exchanges and that he asked her to lie about them which she says she did. meanwhile the congressman is facing some pressure to resign. he is supposed to announce a decision after talking to his wife. she has just come back from a state department assignment overseas. >>> floating empty spaces ready at the drop of a dime for anything any city may need. ken is going off the bay area shoreline for tonight's good question. but san francisco has several >>> you may have a multipurpose drawer at home or room. but san francisco has several multipurpose ships. what are those strange looking ships docked at pier 50? when ron wants something i try to answer that good question. >> reporter: it is 750 feet long as tall as an 8-story building and goes by the nickname row row. >> they are what they call row row ships and that means roll on, roll off. on this side a large ramp that is brought down and then you can drive trucks, tanks, ambulances, what
. >> the woman ginger lee appeared with attorney gloria allred today. lee says she and the congressman did have online exchanges and that he asked her to lie about them which she says she did. meanwhile the congressman is facing some pressure to resign. he is supposed to announce a decision after talking to his wife. she has just come back from a state department assignment overseas. >>> floating empty spaces ready at the drop of a dime for anything any city may need. ken is...
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Jun 8, 2011
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he hired gloria allred. good move? >> she is world respected and worldwide.hink of anything that challenges to the authenticity to bear the cases that she represents. >> that's a very good'. -- very good answer. don't we need pride parades 1234*. >> it is good to take advantage of the moment and have widespread go go dancing. most of my moves i learn. >> yeah. and i realize i have some new exercise tips. you know what is great is seeing the older gay men look at the younger gay men and say i can't do that anymore. >> when they ban sparklers, pride will come. >> here is my theory. if you are off duty and wearing a uniform, what happens if somebody needs help because they think you are a cop and you say i'm sorry i'm at a parade. >> the whole idea is he wasn't really a p could. it was the village people. they haven't got a statement. the buyinger is going to make a statement. >> bill, isn't marching as a cop over rated. >> it is hard to get the boots off. >> i was relieved of my nightstick. they took issue with that. i relieved myself. the fact of the matter is
he hired gloria allred. good move? >> she is world respected and worldwide.hink of anything that challenges to the authenticity to bear the cases that she represents. >> that's a very good'. -- very good answer. don't we need pride parades 1234*. >> it is good to take advantage of the moment and have widespread go go dancing. most of my moves i learn. >> yeah. and i realize i have some new exercise tips. you know what is great is seeing the older gay men look at the...
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Jun 17, 2011
06/11
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KRON
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gloria allred said she was glad that he had resigned he has no one to blame but himself.s wife returned from an overseas trip yesterday. >> good news is were going to stay drying temperatures are going to be cool. this is a shot of downtown san francisco patchy coastal fog. temperatures similar to yesterday. this is all look at current temperatures around the area. we're off to what cooler start there in temperatures in the 60 along the east bay area 78 degrees in san ramon. south bay temperatures will stay in the '70s and 8077 in santa clara. good news is it's not going to allow us long. temperatures are gone a callback into the '80s on sunday and then continued to get warmer for the rest of the week. temperatures expected to go up to the '70s along the coast. >> redway still look good and if you are taking public transit you will encounter some delays we're not sure what time these delays will be rectified. no hotspots on the roadways. we're is seen more traffic heading out into san francisco. it is very quiet up heading out to foster city. golden gate bridge southbound
gloria allred said she was glad that he had resigned he has no one to blame but himself.s wife returned from an overseas trip yesterday. >> good news is were going to stay drying temperatures are going to be cool. this is a shot of downtown san francisco patchy coastal fog. temperatures similar to yesterday. this is all look at current temperatures around the area. we're off to what cooler start there in temperatures in the 60 along the east bay area 78 degrees in san ramon. south bay...
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Jun 16, 2011
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. >> according to messages read aloud by returning gloria allred they were explicit.y'd >> i need to highlight my package. my package and i are not going to baghdad. >> any time he would take our communication in a sexual direction i did not reciprocate. >> they were sent out on his twitter account. >> she turned to wiener she did know what to do. >> i think we're should resign because he lied to the public it would never turned in the this heady told the truth if he lied about this i can have not very much faith in him on anything else. >> will we in their is in seclusion and his pregnant wife hiiumaa has returned from south africa with her boss hillary clinton. >> when we come back we will see who is behaving badly. buell's shot of san francisco stanley roberts is taking exception with people behaving badly. >> this car right here is stop the allied. and this is to be is at least three carloads behind. the peninsula of safety zone has taken on all told a meeting. honda's car stopped not one but two car lengths away. what about this pickup truck you could stick anoth
. >> according to messages read aloud by returning gloria allred they were explicit.y'd >> i need to highlight my package. my package and i are not going to baghdad. >> any time he would take our communication in a sexual direction i did not reciprocate. >> they were sent out on his twitter account. >> she turned to wiener she did know what to do. >> i think we're should resign because he lied to the public it would never turned in the this heady told the...
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Jun 16, 2011
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. >> enter gloria allred.nger lee to discuss the former porn actress' relationship with the embattled congressman. the gist of their message today? weiner asked lee to lie about their online communications. >> i think that anthony weiner should resign because he lied to the public and to the press for more than a week. >> well there you have it. as for weiner himself, he will reportedly mac a decision on his future after consulting with his pregnant wife who has just returned from a state department trip overseas. >>> on the subject of quasi sex scandals how would you like to have lunch with international man of mystery julian assange? wikileaks is offering 8 people the chance to dine with its founder and front man as part of a fundraiser. bids started monday at about $600 a head. they jumped up to $800 today. bidding will close next week. guests will dine july 2 at, quote, one of london's finest restaurants with assange and a slovenian marxist philosopher [ indiscernible ] assange is on bail in britain's figh
. >> enter gloria allred.nger lee to discuss the former porn actress' relationship with the embattled congressman. the gist of their message today? weiner asked lee to lie about their online communications. >> i think that anthony weiner should resign because he lied to the public and to the press for more than a week. >> well there you have it. as for weiner himself, he will reportedly mac a decision on his future after consulting with his pregnant wife who has just returned...
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. >> reporter: her lawyer, gloria allred, read some of the suggestive e-mails alive. >> all right. our package and i aren't going to beg. you aren't giving my package due credit. i have wardrobe demands, too. i need to highlight my package. >> reporter: lee attracted attention after the scandal broke because she was one of only about 200 people the new york congressman followed on twitter. she turned to him for advice. >> he asked me to lie about our communication. i put out a three sentence communication he told me to say. >> reporter: lee says she has a different view of the politician she once ghir admired. >> i think he said resign because he lied to the press for more than a week. >> this is all a hoax. >> it might have turned into the truth but he kept lying. >> reporter: she said she would cooperate are an ethics investigation. >> now she needs to return to work and resume her career as a feature dancer, which is how she was supporting herself before she became entangled in this twitter sex scandal. >> reporter: ginger lee says she didn't sell her story like several other wo
. >> reporter: her lawyer, gloria allred, read some of the suggestive e-mails alive. >> all right. our package and i aren't going to beg. you aren't giving my package due credit. i have wardrobe demands, too. i need to highlight my package. >> reporter: lee attracted attention after the scandal broke because she was one of only about 200 people the new york congressman followed on twitter. she turned to him for advice. >> he asked me to lie about our communication. i put...
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Jun 15, 2011
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ginger lee and gloria allred held a press conference to speak out about the communications with weiner ever about dealing with the press after pictures surfaced about a lewd picture. >> he asked me to lie about our communication. i put out a three-sentence communication he told me to say. it said "i haven't met representative weiner i follow him on twitter because i support him and what he stands for. i have been hounded by political opponents and that has not changed my view of him and what he fights for." >> he said they never met, but claims she followed him on twitter and after writing something positive, he started following her on twitter and it led to e-mails. >> although discussions at first were about politics, sometimes he would try to take it to another level. mentioninging had "package." >> allred said lee didn't respond to sexual advances, but in a blog post, she wrote she wanted to have sex with him. by june 1st, weiner was asked about it. >> i think this is about a pro forma thing that goes out that i sent out to people as i follow them. thank you for following me. check
ginger lee and gloria allred held a press conference to speak out about the communications with weiner ever about dealing with the press after pictures surfaced about a lewd picture. >> he asked me to lie about our communication. i put out a three-sentence communication he told me to say. it said "i haven't met representative weiner i follow him on twitter because i support him and what he stands for. i have been hounded by political opponents and that has not changed my view of him...
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Jun 15, 2011
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lee and her lawyer gloria allred met there to tell her side of the story and tell her relationship with the congressman. here's what lee said. she said it started as a conversation about politics then the conversation took a sexual turn. she said she didn't respond but she did ask for some advice. watch this. >> when the scandal broke and people started e-mailing me, i didn't know what to do. i asked congressman weiner. he asked me to lie about our communication. i put out a three-sentence communication that he told me to say. my statement to the press said, quote, i haven't met representative weiner. i follow him on twitter because i support him and what he stands for. i have been hounded by his political opponents, but that has not changed my view of him and what he fights for." end quote. i didn't want to say anything further. i refuse to lie so i went silent and went into hiding. >> let's go to capitol hill to our senior congressional correspondent dana bash. dana, you've been following this thing ever since it really broke last monday. any sign yet today of the congressman of him o
lee and her lawyer gloria allred met there to tell her side of the story and tell her relationship with the congressman. here's what lee said. she said it started as a conversation about politics then the conversation took a sexual turn. she said she didn't respond but she did ask for some advice. watch this. >> when the scandal broke and people started e-mailing me, i didn't know what to do. i asked congressman weiner. he asked me to lie about our communication. i put out a...
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Jun 16, 2011
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attorney gloria allred is representing one of the women and read part of an e-mail from weiner yesterdaying down the path of comparative sexiness. you aren't giving my package due credit. >> i did not sext anthony weiner. i did not send photos to him or receive any from him. any time that he would take our communications in a sexual direction i did not reciprocate. >> ginger lee and weiner exchanged about 100 e-mails between march and june. she says he also asked her to lie after their contact after the first photo came to light. >>> the latest milestone in the remarkable recovery of gabrielle giffords. she has been released from a houston hospital and this morning, she's back at home with her husband, astronaut, mark kelly. doctors say gabrielle giffords struggles with speaking and walking five months after a gunman shot her in the head. she will continue intensive therapy but on an outpatient basis. >>> a messy academic mix-up at a suburban new york high school and two exceptional student are caught in the middle. sarah st. john was initially named valedictorian at malverne high school
attorney gloria allred is representing one of the women and read part of an e-mail from weiner yesterdaying down the path of comparative sexiness. you aren't giving my package due credit. >> i did not sext anthony weiner. i did not send photos to him or receive any from him. any time that he would take our communications in a sexual direction i did not reciprocate. >> ginger lee and weiner exchanged about 100 e-mails between march and june. she says he also asked her to lie after...