bill buzenberg is executive director of the center for public integrity, one of the most respected nonprofit investigative organizations in the nation. bill was formally at npr and american public media. so welcome to you both. >> thanks. >> let's start with the question at hand. just how serious is the crisis afflicting investigative journalism? bob? >> we're in a convulsion because the newspaper business specifically, but all media, i mean, to be candid, they aren't making money, and so the business model is dying or dead, and if we can't make money, no one's gonna pay our salary, no one is gonna have the courage to actually broadcast or report what we find out. so we can write letters, or we can go on the internet, but as this kind of collective in-depth investigative work that the "new york times" or the "washington post" or npr or some of the networks are doing, there won't be money to support it. >> bill, he uses the world "convulsion." that's a big word. >> investigative reporting is risky, it's time-consuming, it takes a lot of resources to do it and to do it really well and then sta