by taking on sbun like walter rutha, businessmen flocked to barry goldwater as their savior. these were the guys, these businessmen were the people who ended up organizing the group that under barry goldwater's nose without him being involved at all put together a conscience of conservative and first put him forward as a presidential candidate. >> can i disagree with what he said? >> sure. >> my experience with barry and interviewing him, he wasn't -- i'm convinced he wasn't against unions. i mean, the small libertarian thing. he said many times in our shows, to join a union or not join a union, it's their personal voice. he was most vociferous about corruption in the unions and he really didn't like the -- what do you call it? the closed shop, where you had to join a union in order to have a job. >> doesn't like weak unions. >> well, -- >> i'll build on what you're saying there. i think that's absolutely correct. >> it's 2-1. >> he believed that unions were an expression of human freedom. if you joined them voluntary. he believed wholeheartedly in freedom of association. he