and it seems tome that the unittates cannot lie its way out of its obligations to be a barrier to evil. >> was it fix in the your mind then that you wanted to be a painter. >> pretty much, yes i thought about it and worked at it for years but by the time i hit new york in 1949 and 50 that's all i wanted to be. >> and when you saw and met jackson pollock and dick kuhning and many others, what was their impact. what was the nature. >> oh, trem bus-- tremendous. >> of their influence on you. >> tremendous. i mean they were my new york mentors. >> early '50s, right? >> yes. and i had come from high schools and college at were preparion. but that shock, that recognition of what was going on in the art world in new york in those early '50s was tremendous for me and my family-- in my painting. we were then certainly probly still are the capital of what's going on. >> when did you first put canvas on the floor? and stand there and say i'm going to create something different. >> well, i was heading towards it. but i think once i literally saw jackson and i used to go out and visit in spring, wo