then, we got into lurism and -- pluralism and how it works in the bay area. for many, religion isn't the coming thing or organized religion. what's your take on that? >> well, i think that's a major concern, do we survive in the coming year, not only survive, but thrive as congregations and churches and communities of faith. because, we mentioned to you earlier, 4000 churches close every year. a thousand new churches come around. that's great loss in numbers. we all know we're aging. we don't necessarily speak to the larger communities for various reasons. i think harvey cox coined the phrase, the secular city. that's where it started. it started within the enlightenment and the emphasis on progress and technology. a lot of that has been great. we don't want to go back to the dark ages. a lot referenced to the sacred and devine. how do we reach people when we seem like we're talking to a foreign language. >> if we throw out the science -- and there are avenues of dialogue with a you will of the tech -- with all of the technology. i would say, why have a worsh