not everybody is rufus porter and moves to town and starts "scientific american." do they catch on in this new more industrialized system, or what do a lot of them end up doing? >> that's a great question. in my own exuberance i tend to pump up how wonderful -- and there are winners and losers. there are winners and losers all along the way. so, i think that's really important. there are many people who even if a lot of folks can afford six chairs but don't have but one chair. and this is the whole question, and i'll get to your answer in a second. richard buschmann talks about in the 18th century, very few people were refined, so it wasn't so bad to the unrefined because most everyone else was unrefined and there's no shame. but by the 1850s, the middlie i classes also have adopted the new means i would argue for being refined and there's a thinner band of unrefined. in this great transformation and this is really the great transformation looked at in a different, yeah, there are losers and so someone like k maker, yes, he does move to this brass crock making, but