so, but the overidea is that the things to the measures that have been implemented, there will be gradual decline spreads for both countries. >> and do those -- do those refinancing costs, how do thez refinancing costs for spain and italy compare to the, the fire wall that europe has put together? >> i think the question, what you're asking, what is the role of fire walls in bringing down in interest rates. i think it's a very important role. we argue that the successful fiscal adjustment in europe as well as in other countries requires not only fiscal measure, but it also requires the availability of resources to support the fiscal adjustment. so we are very happy about the increase in fire walls in europe. this is only part of the story, however. we now need, in addition to european fire walls, we need the global fire walls. and that's white stronger global fire walls. that's why the imf asked for increased sources available to support countries that are undertaking economic adjustment, and we hope we make progress during this week on this issue as well. >> yes? the gentleman -- right t