now he is of course the architect of the irskin bowles-simpson-- >> eliot: he understand it but he'sderstand it, he's not of it. it would send such a powerful signal to wall street. >> eliot: here is the most fundamental intellectual divide. folks at wall street that the financial sector was the economy. they thought what they did the intermediation moving money around created wealth. they were wrong. all they're supposed to do is take savings and lend it to people who create wealth. if you don't depreciate that, then you're going to be sucked into the same vortex of the mistakes they've made before. >> that's why you need someone like irskin bowles, but you have to allow wall street to take risks with their own money. with their own money. not our money. if they fail, let them fail. forget too big to fail. we'll recover. we'll be fine. >> eliot: what about paul krugman. i knew a lot of people view him as a rabid academic. but when i read his stuff he has been write more than anybody else in terms of diagnosing the economic crisis over the last eight, ten years. >> the only problem i

if it is somebody like irskin bowles, compromise is in the air.lacing geithner who will leave at the end of the year? >> tef, in addition to the debate about tax rates and tax reform, there is a much bigger divide here. the president again and again and again seems to demonstrate to the american people that he believes more government spenning is the answer. he call its government investment. calls it stimulus. doesn't understand the private sector. how do we get to a point where we are getting the economic growth we need to see those increased revenues? >> it's amazing. clip that you played of the president, somebody forgot to tell him, the campaign was over. that sounded like a wack at republican, john boehner put out the olive branch this week and barack obama really came back with a baseball club. that's not the way to get this done. i agree with charles, i heard you earlier today on fox business, this is not the time when you have a really weak economy to be raising tax rates on businesses and investors. the big problem with this economy righ

over the past couple of days, irskin bowles said earlier today, i saw on the internet that when he mete president, the president signalled he may be willing to talk about the raising of taxes. so again, the signs are kind of ominous that we may end up like we were in the first term, with the president striking a bargain. when really this is just austerity in disguise. >> you talk about the fiscal cliff, millions of americans being plunged into higher taxations. at the same time, many americans have gone out and spent loads on black friday, record numbers. and also spent what little they had left on the lottery tickets for the powerball. how would you stop that? should you stop that? are you with dave ramsey? is this a tax on the poor? >> it is a tax on the poor. i think dave is right. again, that is a tax on the poor. for some, it is fun and games. and i don't regret or begrudge anybody if they want to spend their money on the lottery. here is what troubles me. nothing wrong, necessarily, using the money to fund education. it is when education itself becomes a lottery. every time i see

today irskin bowls one of the key budget experts says he believes there is a two thirds chance that he wool go off the fiscal cliff. that's not too optimistic tonight, shep. >> shepard: not at all. ed henry live on the north lawn. the president is sending one of his top negotiators to capitol hill tomorrow to meet with congressional leaders from both parties. mike emanuel is live for that part. is he live on the hill tonight. what's the latest on the talks. >> there is always hope for tomorrow that's when treasury secretary tim geithner come up here to capitol hill to have individual meetings with the top four lawmakers. one of them nancy pelosi, the house democratic leader who was asked earlier today about spending cuts. >> i think it's important to note that we have already agreed to over a trillion and a half dollars in cuts in both the budget control act and other acts in this session of congress. and so now we're looking to see what the revenue piece will be to that. >> that means she wants to talk more tax revenue now, spending cuts later. , >> shepard: shep what are republicans

the ceos of etna inc., honey well international and irskin bowles are amongst those scheduled to attend. half the bowls simpson deficit planned and laid out own formula to save $2 trillion. it is clear republicans like his ideas which would generate $800 billion in revenue through tax reform. meanwhile so much tax reform about allowing the bush tax cuts to allow the wealthy tox expire cost $9.69 billion a day to run. estimated additional revenue from allowing the bush tax cuts to expire would generate an average of $82.4 billion a year. so the money saved would run the government for 8 and a half days, shep. >> shepard: mike emanuel live in our newsroom. warning from the white house tonight. it says americans who may do less holiday shopping this year because they are worried about possible tax hikes in january. if we do go off the cliff, the white house is predicting more serious consequences for the entire economy. a lot of details here and they are coming up inside fox report. well, just hours remain in what is expected to be the biggest online shopping day ever. the research firm co

they upon meet with irskin bowles. he was the co-chair of simpson-bowles commission . mr.owles had a great plan. he is a democrat, that offered up 800 billion in new revenue and overhaul the tax system and changes to medicare and that's why the republicans are asking the democrats to come in and explain your deal. this plan was hatched in 2010 and everyone walked away from it and now they call bowles back up? it is late. this is what the american people are upset about. nothing gets done. >> steve: we are a month from the cliff. >> gretchen: we could have avoided the cliff if they used the plan as a starting point. americans are upset nothing gets done. >> brian: norquist is the bad guy. you should walk away from grover norquest. he said you have enough money on capitol hill and stop asking us . he's been a watch dog on our money so whether you are democrat or republican you should salute him. he warned you in the past that people who walked away from the no new taxes paid a price. >> remember the gang of 6. three of the people that you mentioned spent eight months in the