i want to start with you kenny dwight and ask about something eduardo vega that said that force is not treatment. that basically the key is to approach people with mental illness with love, kindness and compassion. i know from our editorial page that when we have written about laura's law that some of the post poignant arguments from family members that they have done everything they can do but don't know how to help a loved one. what would you have done? could force treatment made a difference? >> yes. absolutely. laura's law is not forced treatment. i don't know why mr. vega keeps using that word because laura's law is an upfront tool before somebody needs crisis. if they are proven to be a danger to themselves or someone else, a judge tries to get a treatment team and they try to talk with this person and figure out a way for them to stay out of the hospital. we have forced treatment, we have 51/50. my son has been through 51/50 numerous times. he's been slammed with this. this is a horrible experience. laura's law is a tool, only a tool that may help. for whoever can help, and than

let's get another perspective on this from eduardo very big vega. you have been forthright to discussions about treatment and in your chronicle about laura's law that you think the need to help the vast majority of people who do want treatments. but aren't there cases as we are hearing today that force treatment is necessary? >> well, so i have been working in mental health field for about 22 years various places across the country. i have worked in crisis programs here and in new york city and pretty much ever phase of program there is. i have been a suicide prevention interventionist, i guess after this, the one thing i want to say that force is not treatment. one thing that we have learned in the community mental health system which was set up in the 60s partly to answer the need for social justice around mental health is that people respond to dignity and fair treatment. and the -- as an example of the -- i think that the psych so physiology is that it's still very coneject ral. that doesn't really matter. the one thing that i have realized in w

. >> thank you. [ applause ] >> we have an audience question for eduardo vega. for the severely mentally ill, involuntary measures and current use are chaotic and traumatic. we talked about the current system, on the other hand laura's law provides community service with know forced meds. why would you be against it? >> why has laura's law be implemented in one small rural county. i think part of the answer is we do have good community services and support in san francisco and we have the best in the country and funded through the mental health services act. do they solve all the problems? absolutely not. do we need more? absolutely. to bring an additional court process that threatens people with enforcement measures and takes away right to self determination is at the core of this. the people that run the program in nevada county. the program that provisions the services, that program is available to people voluntarily. that only 4 people have been treated through the voluntary clause. that service is available to all people. 4 people were involuntary mandated

gary is a psychiatrist and laura's law advocate and eduardo vega of the mental health association of san francisco. let me start by opposing a question to karen chen from the public defenders office. karen, can you -- how about if you start by giving us an overview of how the city handles this conflict between treatment and civil liberties. >> an involuntary hold starts in san francisco when a peace officer or a clinician makes the determination that the person is due to a mental disorder, is a danger to others or danger to self or gravely disabled. gravely disabled means that person does not have the ability to provide for basic needs such as food, clothing and shelter. and the legal representation starts in most cases the first 3 days of the involuntary hold during the initial psychiatric evaluation and then the legal representation also continues with if the person is asked to be stayed or referred for further treatment up to 14 days. during this phase, the attorneys will represent the clients about whether or not they will have to stay on this hold, whether they have to take medi