and he and bill buckley used to debate, have vicious debates in front of crowds like this in the 1950s and '60s about the merits of conservativism and liberalism. and then, but other time once my father moved to new york and they started, this enmity sort of turned into an odd sort of friendship. and in the 1990s bill buckley wrote a novel about joe mccarthy which was very positive -- >> "red hunter." >> and he sent my father a letter which is in the book saying would you write a blurb for my novel about joe dzhokhar think? [laughter] >> joe mccarthy? >> and my father wrote a pleasant letter back, well, you haven't really persuaded me about the greatness of joe mccarthy, and i'm sorry i won't be able to give you a blurb. but ken galbraith did. they were even better friends. [laughter] >> both of you, did he have call ms as a historian about keeping, about making so many judgments in a contemporary -- in the his journals and his letters making -- i mean, he's very tough on eisenhower when he's being inaugurated. the business interests are back in. there's been a whole new way of a think