and some traditions and i think that also >>> you notice something very interesting when you went to mecd the hajj actually, what's called the offseason hajj, and you noticed something about the difference between being in the heart of mecca, following the rules that have been in place since the seventh century, and saudi arabia today. >> very interesting. indeed, when i went there, i did my prayers and the rituals. what i noticed was that around the kaaba, there is no segregation. men and women are together. there is no physical barrier between a man and a woman in the very holy shrine of islam. >> the kaaba is the holiest shrine. >> the holy shrine in the city of mecca, the birth place of islam. you leave the kaaba and go to burger king or starbucks which is next to the shrine, you have to be separated. men and women go two different ways because the saudi kingdom physically separates men and women in every public space thinking that that's the pious thing to do except in kaaba. if you want to talk to a lady, this is the only place you can do this is the kaaba. >> what do you say when