i said to paul -- or to steve na larry. they did not know any experts in the field.i said you have to listen to them. they came from the experience of working with the offenders without expertise, both of them. i say to them, think i do did not know any experts like me. you never would have done this. never. i would not have advised it. and neither would any of the other experts. that did not happen. they came up from their experience. they had a problem. they had new ideas about what to do. that is one lesson. the second lesson is even more important. because lots of people have good ideas. what you are looking at is two men who have devoted their lives for a decade to the development of this idea and it spread ing. the charisma that they have, the ideas that they have, the ability to get institutions involved, is very precious. and what we have here today is to people who have covered this new idea and have devoted themselves to it and have come here today to talk about it. when i left the government, founded with my wife, our own job was to find new ideas related