kevin: the luddites are misunderstood.y are a group of workers from the northeast of england who about 200 years ago rosa and rebellion -- rose up in rebellion against the automated loom. they were weavers. about 200 years ago it became possible to create a loom that did not need a weaver. they used punch cards that contained the pattern and automatically woke a rug -- wove a rug or a piece of fabric. the luddites thought this meant the end for their lives and grandchildren's lives. what they could not know is that was the beginning of the information revolution. what actually happened as a result of the automated loom and the industrial era it heralded was there was a need for more educated workers then there had ever been before. as a result of those apparently very disruptive, and potentially socially damaging technological changes, two things happened through the 18th century everyone in the industrialized world learn to read. nearly everyone could read by 1899. following on from that, in order to create a class of wor

who are the luddites? >> guest: so the luddites are, i think, a little bit misunderstood. they're a group of workers from the northeast of england who are about 200 years ago rose up in rebellion against something called the automated loop. they were basically weavers, and about 200 years ago it became possible to create a loom that didn't need a weaver. it used sort of punchcards that contained the weaving pattern and automatically, you know, wove a rug or a piece of fabric. and the millers felt very threatened by this automation. they believed it would be the end of their livelihood, the end of the livelihood of their, you know, of their children and grandchildren. what they didn't know or couldn't know -- and many of them died fighting the automated loom. they were caught and executed or killed while they were trying to destroy looms. what they couldn't know was that was the beginning of the information revolution. what actual happened as a result of -- actually happened as a result of the automated loom and the industrial era that it heralded was there was a need for m

john: we know that relative luddites like you and i we have , not done a lot of coding when , you deletehings, you don't really delete them. the question will be raised are these things really deleted? if you start digging into the guts of that machine, what do they find? if they don't find anything -- the point you have made on a several occasions, if they don't find anything, people will say wow, they must have been hiding something. if they do find something, whether it is the nature you said or has something with the foundation business, that maybe -- mark: that would have to be leaked. that would not come out. john: there have been some leaks, as you are aware, so that can be problematic, too. it gets to the nexus of government and foundation. mark: this also gives a wedge for the republican investigators on capitol hill to piggyback. they wanted the server and are not getting it yet. now, the justice department has and it opened the door and they will say look, we can't trust barack obama's justice department. we need to look at it. it is not good for her and this story is not goin

this is not a luddite position i am taking. there is no way to turn the clock back. i do not want to turn it back. we need to recognize that inherent in each -- each virtue that i have summarized along the side is the risk. that to the degree that i concentrated or communicate or take people out of the loop, etc. -- to the degree i buy the benefits of this technology and each and every one of those steps i introduced, security consequences give rise to greater risk. the virtue of the system is intertwined with its limitation, it's liability, and it's risk. that is fundamental. it is not just of the complexity of the system gives me these problems. one recent technology fixes new not just get me there is every time i buy more security i tend to do so in ways that involve some sacrifice of virtues. i want to spend a minute, having talked about software, just to say a little bit about hardware. the hardware insecurities are quite real as well, and you are aware of that. an easy example i like to get his people think about supply chain and all kinds of sophisticated ways